Warriors need MORE damage

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

snip

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Because there is a difference between asking for reasonable change and asking to be OP. Warriors are clearly the best available main tank. They have some of the best defensive CDs in the game. They have the highest burst and sustained damage. The one downfall they had they got and they received undisputed the best raid utility out of any of the tanks. So you tell me, how am I being salty when people just don't know when to stop? Warriors out of the 3 tanks have the least reason to ask for anything. Out of the 3 tanks DRK need the most help, PLD need slight adjustments. Warriors need nothing. Oh and they also are the only tank with the slashing debuff.

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Originally Posted by Scyn

They have the highest burst and sustained damage.The one downfall they had they got and they received undisputed the best raid utility out of any of the tanks. Out of the 3 tanks DRK need the most help, PLD need slight adjustments. Warriors need nothing.

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since when warrior has best sustained damage? you messed up even a little tiny bit and paladin can easily surpass it.(even if you're doing it perfectly sometime paladin can still surpass a warrior dps)
and what is "best raid utility out of any tanks"? shake it off? you need to sacrifice at least 2 cooldowns for it to be as good as PLDs divine veil and that's just one while paladin has other like passage of arms,intervention and cover. warrior don't have the equivalent of those 3 btw but i'm not surprised you didn't mention it
and the fact you think the 2nd best tank in the game doesn't need adjustment while the best tank in the game need one just prove fallenwings point, 1.just like many other PLD mains you're nothing more than a warrior hater,2. you're insecure because after 4.2 PLD might lose their undisputed best tank status(as much as you PLD mains love to deny this, you know this is the truth)

And you are a warrior homer who is home sick of the 3.X days where warrior had everything. See how easy it is to label someone something with thinking things thru? Offensive tool kit doesn't simply involve sustain damage but burst as well and warriors trump plds there (not to mention they edge paladins on sustain damage) so they are offensive better. Defensively in magical fights they are close and in physical fights warriors straight up beat PLD no contest. Then you look at utility. It terms of shielding abilities Shake it off is the best raid shield ability out of all the tanks. Divine Veil is strong but needs to be adjusted. Passage is incredibly situational and really needs to be adjusted. Sacrificing GCDs for a 15% raid shield isn't worth it more often then not. Cover is strong but again is situational.I'll give you intervention. So warriors are better offensive tanks, better defensive tanks, and have the single strongest raid utility. I ask again they need a buff?

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Originally Posted by Scyn

See how easy it is to label someone something with thinking things thru? I ask again they need a buff?

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1.it is indeed easy to brand you a warrior hater, because your hostility towards the job is very clear.one instance being you keep putting the blame on warrior as if they're breaking the game balance despite paladin having better position overall in the game
2."defensively in magical fight they're close and in physical fight warriors straight up beat pld no contest" oh that's right because warrior have shield that can block both magic and physical damage and have sheltron which can be used basically at any time, oh wait that's paladin
3."not to mention they edge paladins on sustain damage", you need to stop convincing yourself with lies such as these. WAR sustain damage is way below PLD the only way WAR can be on the same level is through burst damage of inner release that is up once every 2 minutes
do they need a buff? yes because paladin is better than warrior and dark knight, paladin pretty much has guaranteed spot in raid while warrior are interchangable with dark knight that shows that WAR and DRK need some work, PLD doesn't

Lololol. Sheltron is strong. But vengeance > Sentinel. Holmgang > HG, rampart is shared. Raw intuition > bulwark. And if you can’t beat your raid pld Co tank in dps that isn’t a deficiency in the class that’s a deficiency if your own ability. Buffing a class because you cannot perform well isn’t a valid reason sorry. Lastly the meta is war and pld. Dark knight is not interchangeable I dunno what you are smoking. Warriors are clear cut the best main tank out of the 3 tanks. The only instance drk would ever swap in is if a fight is almost entirely magical and that’s it. Very niche and by far not meta.

It is not my problem or my fault that SE decides to unreasonably buff WAR, frankly my faith in their ability to even balance this content has already evaporated after their clear lack of shits given in stormblood as well as the broken promise of tank balance > new tank. But I have as much right to /ask/ or discuss various ideas whether they be completely relevant to balance or not as any of the 50000 DRK whine threads that perpetuate this forum. Not saying it is without merit, but bitching about other people bitching because my class is oppressed and deserves more right to talk is not very progressive towards overall discussion or any semblence of community. This is literally a team focused PvE game so the constant flaming between the tanks is honestly completely illogical.

Frankly, the meme of WAR whinging is frankly very disrespectful to the WAR mains that don't whinge or support the balance of the tanks and realization of WARs ability over the other two. Getting pretty tired of the WAR hate when that energy should be used more on pushing the DRK agenda.

That aside, WAR should be nerfed to be the lowest tank DPS. I don't say this because of various misguidance notions of utility balance or crap like that.

I just want to compete with a disadvantage :^)

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Originally Posted by Scyn

And if you can’t beat your raid pld Co tank in dps that isn’t a deficiency in the class that’s a deficiency if your own ability. Buffing a class because you cannot perform well isn’t a valid reason sorry. Lastly the meta is war and pld. Dark knight is not interchangeable I dunno what you are smoking.

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1.paladin matching or surpassing warrior dps isn't warrior's fault because with their current sets they can do it very easily, but then again i'm sure this will fall on deaf ear and you will just say another nonsense to justify your hate for the job
2.meta is indeed war and pld but dark knight and warrior are still interchangable, that is why the world first of bahamut was paladin and dark knight not warrior and dark knight. doing dark knight and warrior in current raid is like shooting yourself in the foot
3.buffing war and drk is valid until pld loses their guaranteed spot in raid that they currently have

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Originally Posted by Scyn

But vengeance > Sentinel. Holmgang > HG, rampart is shared. Raw intuition > bulwark.

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I don't see how any of these are better than another. Sentinel reduces more damage than Vengeance (vengeance has a 50 potency counter which could be the only advantage but also depends on frequency of attack). Holmgang is 6 seconds, Hallowed Ground is 10. Raw Intuition I could see since it is guaranteed but with Bulwark + native block rate, dodge, and parry you almost have 100% mitigation as well.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

I don't see how any of these are better than another. Sentinel reduces more damage than Vengeance (vengeance has a 50 potency counter which could be the only advantage but also depends on frequency of attack). Holmgang is 6 seconds, Hallowed Ground is 10. Raw Intuition I could see since it is guaranteed but with Bulwark + native block rate, dodge, and parry you almost have 100% mitigation as well.

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Vengeance is easy to answer, despite only being 30% damage reduction it is on a 2 minute cooldown and has 50% higher duration than sentinel. This will mitigate more by virtue of being up more frequently.

Same deal with Holmgang. Though it requires more precision in timing, it is up twice as often as hallowed.

Lastly for Raw intuition, though it is only physical it is definite, and it is on half the recast with 33% more duration than bulwark. However, I am not a fan of RNG mitigation so that should also be considered here.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

I don't see how any of these are better than another. Sentinel reduces more damage than Vengeance (vengeance has a 50 potency counter which could be the only advantage but also depends on frequency of attack). Holmgang is 6 seconds, Hallowed Ground is 10. Raw Intuition I could see since it is guaranteed but with Bulwark + native block rate, dodge, and parry you almost have 100% mitigation as well.

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No tank buster requires a 40% reduction in a single ability. Thus the damage and shorter cooldown on Vengeance is superior.
Holmgang has a shorter cooldown than HG and with healers that are adequate, the primary downside doesn't exist.
Raw Intuition lasts longer and is effectively as good as Bulwark on a shorter cooldown for boss encounters, and doubles up as more mitigation on Physical busters (Where Bulwark is overwritten by Shelltron)

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

Snip.

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I enjoy these conversations tremendously. If anything it just shows even more how far DRK is behind.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

I enjoy these conversations tremendously. If anything it just shows even more how far DRK is behind.

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... and then there is dark knight LOL

Shadow Wall: mitigation of vengeance cooldown of Sentinel

Dark Mind 16% mitigation magic only in 10 second intervals every minute. Worse in duration and mitigation than raw intuition. Mitigates much less than bulwark but has nearly twice the uptime and isn’t RNG.

Out of tank stance paladin and dark knight have access to their on demand mitigation, warrior doesn’t. I don’t know if this balances out but I have a feeling the balance is in Warrior’s favor.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

... and then there is dark knight LOL

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Agreed you would think if it was a 2h clone of PLD, Shadow Wall would at least be 40% but...

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Originally Posted by konpachizaraki

1.paladin matching or surpassing warrior dps isn't warrior's fault because with their current sets they can do it very easily, but then again i'm sure this will fall on deaf ear and you will just say another nonsense to justify your hate for the job
2.meta is indeed war and pld but dark knight and warrior are still interchangable, that is why the world first of bahamut was paladin and dark knight not warrior and dark knight. doing dark knight and warrior in current raid is like shooting yourself in the foot
3.buffing war and drk is valid until pld loses their guaranteed spot in raid that they currently have

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1) wrong - try again.
2) just because world first used a drk doesn’t suddenly validiate your argument. Btw world second had a warrior :).
3) lol ya ok. That sounds like a viable way of buffing a class. Thank god you aren’t in charge of class balance.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

Agreed you would think if it was a 2h clone of PLD, Shadow Wall would at least be 40% but...

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Ideally it should not be a clone of Paladin, the devs should make it it’s own job.

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Originally Posted by konpachizaraki

1.paladin matching or surpassing warrior dps isn't warrior's fault because with their current sets they can do it very easily, but then again i'm sure this will fall on deaf ear and you will just say another nonsense to justify your hate for the job
2.meta is indeed war and pld but dark knight and warrior are still interchangable, that is why the world first of bahamut was paladin and dark knight not warrior and dark knight. doing dark knight and warrior in current raid is like shooting yourself in the foot
3.buffing war and drk is valid until pld loses their guaranteed spot in raid that they currently have

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sorry but im not agree with anything you say, you looks like you dont know how to play WAR properly.

firts if you let a PLD matching you dps you arent playing properly or you are messing the zerk windows, WARS are king on dps in stable numbers you can go to fflogs and check that yourself if you want, no one need to hate the job to see the current WAR performance is superior.

second WAR is not interchangeable, DRK offers nothing to the team, the meta is WAR and PLD both in a pretty solid position, DRK beins world first means the battle dont really needs the extras the other tanks have to beat the fight but that don't means not having a WAR the battle will be lot more easy with is that already does, the number of parsers on that fight prove that.

and thirt WAR dont needs buff, more they need nerfs in some things, i dont really care if they get QoL changes as longer those dont buff they already king performance for the baby WARS how cant manage the job, the only job who needs buffs is DRK, WAR is already on par to PLD and they surpass it on many things.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

Ideally it should not be a clone of Paladin, the devs should make it it’s own job.

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Agreed but if I recall from HW Shadow Wall and Sentinel were identical once you had the trait boost it.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

Agreed but if I recall from HW Shadow Wall and Sentinel were identical once you had the trait boost it.

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Shadow Wall has always only been 30%. It was not traited to 40% at any time. Sentinel was traited to 40% though.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

Out of tank stance paladin and dark knight have access to their on demand mitigation, warrior doesn’t. I don’t know if this balances out but I have a feeling the balance is in Warrior’s favor.

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It does make a difference. Right now PLD has ~25% mitigation on every single tankbuster from Sheltron, and a random chance to block every single attack. DRK has an ~11k shield every 15 seconds, for every tankbuster and plenty of other hits. And Intervention/TBN can be used on other people just as often. That adds up to a lot of free mitigation in any fight. A group with PLD+DRK can mitigate most things with just Sheltron/Intervention+TBN, but WAR needs to use its full cooldowns because IB is Defiance only. WAR SHOULD have better cooldowns to make up for how undesireable IB is.

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Originally Posted by Launched

It does make a difference. Right now PLD has ~25% mitigation on every single tankbuster from Sheltron, and a random chance to block every single attack. DRK has an ~11k shield every 15 seconds, for every tankbuster and plenty of other hits. And Intervention/TBN can be used on other people just as often. That adds up to a lot of free mitigation in any fight. A group with PLD+DRK can mitigate most things with just Sheltron/Intervention+TBN, but WAR needs to use its full cooldowns because IB is Defiance only. WAR SHOULD have better cooldowns to make up for how undesireable IB is.

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So the issue that I have with this is that we are mixing utility into the mix of life when comparing tank mitigation, but lets look at it seriously in savage currently. Naturally, when it comes to utility for team mitigation, paladin is going to knock it out of the park. Intervention is firmly in the utility camp, and TBN is in both depending on how its used. I'm not going to make a large fuss about how TBN is not actually free and is risk without reward especially when "used on anyone", but needless to say I really disagree with this point. Intervention is basically free trading mitigation for me into mitigation for you. I would like to point out that Thrill of Battle + intervention would be the same thing as intervention + TBN every two minutes, which for practical purposes is every other tank buster in most fights, a far cry from using everything.

Sheltron is up for basically every tank buster. Does this make a huge difference? Well in V3S it doesn't since crit overrides blocking, it might be up but its not doing anything for every other buster. Warrior can make it through this with alternating holmgang and awareness back and forth and not dive into any of its other mitigation. In V4S I think most groups tank ultimate through the major tank busters to manage their way through, since there are no auto-attacks there isn't much else to spend your mitigation on other than aero and shakers, and paladin can help warrior through that since aero typically only needs a small amount of mitigation to be livable, and the rest of the buster/cleaves are shared.

So we are actually talking about the first two turns when we are discussing this. However, the tank busters in the first two turns are immediately procedeed by cleaves, which your healers might want mitigated. Here the extra duration on Warrior's cooldowns are at an advantage as it can often catch at least one (if not both) cleaves and the tank buster, where as paladin and dark knight will have to choose 1 of the three to mitigate, or you know use their mitigations to get through like warrior.

So yes, Paladin Dark Knight brings alot of on demand mitigation right now, but it also seems the fights where this matters there is a large amount of damage going out before hand which favors warrior's kit. In v3s you are trading the ease of warrior simply using its mitigation for on demand coordination from a dark paladin composition. V4S has taught us to use tank ultimates, the greatest gift of all since nothing matters, except that dark knights are a pain to heal when they take thunders and healers dodge laser beams, fire, and ice.

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Originally Posted by Scyn

1) wrong - try again.
2) just because world first used a drk doesn’t suddenly validiate your argument. Btw world second had a warrior :).
3) lol ya ok. That sounds like a viable way of buffing a class. Thank god you aren’t in charge of class balance.

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1."wrong try again" such an intelligent and well written response from someone who told me to give "valid response"
2.it is because the similarity is that world 1st,2nd,3rd all have PLD, it is PLD who is mandatory not WAR. WAR being in the meta because DRK is currently bad, PLD is in the meta because they're better than the other 2 tank.removing a WAR from your party doesn't have as much effect as removing PLD because of how much a PLD can bring on the table
3.and i'm glad it's not you who is in charge either, we can't have someone who has clear hostility towards a certain job to be in charge of class balance isn't it?

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Originally Posted by shao32

=
second WAR is not interchangeable,having a WAR the battle will be lot more easy with is that already does, the number of parsers on that fight prove that.
and thirt WAR dont needs buff, more they need nerfs in some things, i dont really care if they get QoL changes as longer those dont buff they already king performance for the baby WARS how cant manage the job, the only job who needs buffs is DRK, WAR is already on par to PLD and they surpass it on many things.

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WAR are DRK are still interchangeable even if WAR is better than them. look at world 1st,2nd and 3rd of unending bahamut clear, what is the similarity between them? all of them has PLD in their team but not all of them has WAR and the reason of that is not including a WAR in your team isn't as detrimental as not including a PLD in your team
as long as PLD still has that luxury i say buffing the other 2 tank is indeed justified

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Originally Posted by konpachizaraki

WAR are DRK are still interchangeable even if WAR is better than them. look at world 1st,2nd and 3rd of unending bahamut clear, what is the similarity between them? all of them has PLD in their team but not all of them has WAR and the reason of that is not including a WAR in your team isn't as detrimental as not including a PLD in your team
as long as PLD still has that luxury i say buffing the other 2 tank is indeed justified

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You keep mentioning UCoB World First. The dude who was the clearing DRK wasn't even a tank. None of his tanks were at 70 when he was asked to tank for their group. He played DRK because it was fun. Have you checked the current number of clears for UCoB and seen how many people went as PLD/WAR versus PLD/DRK? Or is "world first" the end-all-be-all for you?
Stop trying to justify the situation with a logical fallacy.

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

You keep mentioning UCoB World First. The dude who was the clearing DRK wasn't even a tank. None of his tanks were at 70 when he was asked to tank for their group. He played DRK because it was fun. Have you checked the current number of clears for UCoB and seen how many people went as PLD/WAR versus PLD/DRK? Or is "world first" the end-all-be-all for you?
Stop trying to justify the situation with a logical fallacy.

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again i repeat, i know WAR and PLD is the meta, but what i'm talking about is how important PLD is compared to the other tank, you can do PLD+ DRK or WAR. but not DRK+WAR
not having PLD is worse for the team than not having DRK or WAR
i'm bringing world 1st,2nd,3rd to point out that WAR isn't as important as people say they are because without them you can still compete for world 1st,i doubt you can do that without PLD

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Originally Posted by konpachizaraki

again i repeat, i know WAR and PLD is the meta, but what i'm talking about is how important PLD is compared to the other tank, you can do PLD+ DRK or WAR. but not DRK+WAR
not having PLD is worse for the team than not having DRK or WAR
i'm bringing world 1st,2nd,3rd to point out that WAR isn't as important as people say they are because without them you can still compete for world 1st,i doubt you can do that without PLD

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*sigh*
Yes there is a serious issue when the combo of War+Drk is not seen, if at all, then not often enough. It's arguable that it's not worth it to run without a PLD as one of the tanks. That should be the focus of any arguments made. Frankly screw UCoB #th clear, those aren't relevant to the topic of "making War/[either] just as viable as Pld/[either] and Drk/[either]." Instead, if you really want to use UCoB, focus instead on "what tanks are being taken, what is the rest of the party comp, how are they using their skills," and other things pertinent to actual tank balance, not player skill.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

It is not my problem or my fault that SE decides to unreasonably buff WAR, frankly my faith in their ability to even balance this content has already evaporated after their clear lack of shits given in stormblood as well as the broken promise of tank balance > new tank. ... This is literally a team focused PvE game so the constant flaming between the tanks is honestly completely illogical.

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This quote is very underrated. Here is the kicker, I don't think SE/devs have anyone to blame for this but themselves. This is what happens when you don't listen to your player base and let super classes rage on for an expansion with no adjustments. Favoritism from developers, percieved or (in this case) not, creates animosity in the player base.

The devs ignoring the dark knight complaints, and telling us the balance is fine with no explanation other than #worldfirst, is the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting LALALALALALALALALALALALALA. Of course that will annoy people.

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Originally Posted by konpachizaraki

WAR are DRK are still interchangeable even if WAR is better than them.

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Lets pretend there's 3 people in a fictional world.
Their names are PLD, WAR and DRK.

PLD makes $300 a month
WAR makes $200 a month
DRK makes $100 a month

Only 2 people can live in an available house.

The rent is $400 a month.

So, yes, PLD can interchangably bring either WAR or DRK as their roomate.
Yes, WAR and DRK can not be roomates and afford rent.

The problem isnt about viability of WAR+DRK compisitions, but bringing DRK up to WARs position. (and if DRK makes $200 a month, then a WAR/DRK combo would be enough.)
The issue isnt about the ability to clear the content, but to BALANCE the classes to eachother. (Currently, the way Ultimate is set up, it's like making rent $300 a month instead of $400, rather than giving DRK a raise up to $200 a month.)
Ultimate is set up to simply make encounters not need part of your toolkit. (There wasnt enough mitigation requirements, DPS requirements, or party mitigation requirements, for DRK to be left out.)
They lowered its requirements to meet DRKs standards. (So its like DRK is still $100 and PLD is still $300. We're asking for balance of the classes, not the encounters.)


Also, SE tries every party combination, to make sure all combinations CAN clear content.
So technically a WAR/DRK combo was able to beat it, before we even got our hands on it. (Same with PLDs in HW being able to clear content.)

So the logical next step, is to make the tanks either
(1) Equal in what they can do
or
(2) offer at least ONE specialty over another tank

(When WAR didnt have the new shake it off, it was an argument, that MAYBE DRK was worth bringing over WAR, because of TBN. Of course that would be silly, but there was enough arguments for it. Now its arguments of WAR vs PLD, and who cares about DRK)

Honestly, after doing savage content, and more so O3S and O4S, if I ABSOLUTELY HAD to have a DRK, but the last spot could be any tank, I'd honestly pick a WAR over PLD.
Its a VERY tough call, but I'm more comfortable with a skilled WAR.

If I pugged it, then I would go with a PLD, as an unskilled PLD I feel will do better than a mediocre WAR.
So imo, no, WAR really isnt "that far behind PLD".

war was only on the 2nd world first clear? wut... war needs buff now!... (a blm was finally on the 20th clear, ... delete blm now!)

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

war was only on the 2nd world first clear? wut... war needs buff now!... (a blm was finally on the 20th clear, ... delete blm now!)

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that joke was already made.

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

that joke was already made.

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Pretty sure it was in the Patch notes. Going to check the live letter.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

Job Adjustments
We'll be making job adjustments in Patch 4.2 as well. We're planning to adjust things like deleting black mage, and usability of warriors. We'll be going over the details in the second part of the Patch 4.2 special.

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(just playing around, dont hate me Bayohne lol xD )

https://pa1.narvii.com/6415/04bcae8f...1d2e609_hq.gif
Well how about that?

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Originally Posted by Magnedeus

Tanks exist to take hits for the team and have high defense, not high offense.

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Could you say this louder for the plebians in the back?

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Originally Posted by InnerBeastMode

Could you say this louder for the plebians in the back?

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Sure that's why they exist, but they are also the least played class in virtually every MMO that uses them. Players want to have a tangible impact when playing the class. Getting punched in the face is valuable for the team, but it is also doesn't make players feel very good. Its passive. The entire concept of tanking is a passive idea.

You could make every tank move like flash. Remove the damage. Leave the effects and enmity. Tanks would still do the same rotations, same stuff, but be hitting for 0. But, unsurprisingly, you would also loose a lot of players from the tank role, yet the game still needs tanks.

Tanks have to feel impactful while playing. Damage is the most direct way to appeal to players. You can talk about the philosophy of tanking all you want. But in the end, they have to be fun to play and most players like to make things deader to have fun.

Tanks doing pretty good damage in this game is one of the reasons the tank shortage is not as severe as most MMOs.

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Originally Posted by Aana

Tanks have to feel impactful while playing. Damage is the most direct way to appeal to players. You can talk about the philosophy of tanking all you want. But in the end, they have to be fun to play and most players like to make things deader to have fun.

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With that being said they could eliminate the damage penalty of tank stance and basically make it so that DPS stance is primarily used for Solo/OT. Which what is said above is why the meta of Tanks being in DPS stance is so heavily pushed. So essentially the Tank Stance would become a Defensive and Enmity buff. Some people like stance dancing and I don't mind it but it would eliminate the Fell Cleave heroes who think every pull can be done in DPS stance. I say Fell Cleave (it was the only ability that stands out) but it really applies to all tanks.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

With that being said they could eliminate the damage penalty of tank stance and basically make it so that DPS stance is primarily used for Solo/OT. Which what is said above is why the meta of Tanks being in DPS stance is so heavily pushed. So essentially the Tank Stance would become a Defensive and Enmity buff. Some people like stance dancing and I don't mind it but it would eliminate the Fell Cleave heroes who think every pull can be done in DPS stance. I say Fell Cleave (it was the only ability that stands out) but it really applies to all tanks.

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There are a lot of things you can do if you are OK with tanks doing damage. But they do still need to make a distinct difference between a DPS and a tank or we will just have 6 tanks and 2 healers doing everything.

I was responding to this persistent attitude that 'tanks shouldn't do damage cuz they are tanks'. That's fine and dandy in theory, but they need to be impactful enough that people feel empowered playing the role. There just aren't enough sword n board 'protect the party' types of players that will play tanks armed with noodles. Even though the 'concept' of a tank is fundamentally being high defense low offense. MMOs with the 'true' tank archetype don't have enough of the playerbase playing them is all im saying. You see SE struggling with this constantly with the yoyo of Str vs Vit vs Hybrid damage and the Str on accessories going all over the place. They started with the traditional tank role, but players found a way around it and had fun doing it. Now they decide if they force tanks to do as they were designed, or follow the playerbase that grew around the idea of DPS oriented tanking.

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Originally Posted by Aana

There are a lot of things you can do if you are OK with tanks doing damage. But they do still need to make a distinct difference between a DPS and a tank or we will just have 6 tanks and 2 healers doing everything.

They started with the traditional tank role, but players found a way around it and had fun doing it. Now they decide if they force tanks to do as they were designed, or follow the playerbase that grew around the idea of DPS oriented tanking.

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I agree with you and not saying that tanks should be the end all be all. But even if you eliminated the current damage penalty tanks will still fall short of a DPS. DPS stance as we currently call it as far as I am aware still doesn't put out as much as a RDM.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

I agree with you and not saying that tanks should be the end all be all. But even if you eliminated the current damage penalty tanks will still fall short of a DPS. DPS stance as we currently call it as far as I am aware still doesn't put out as much as a RDM.

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They don't have to be right on top of a DPS's dps to replace them. Their functionally immune to raid AOEs and can completely ignore mechanics that kill DPS. Allow single or even no healers, rotate HGs etc. If they even get withing spitting distance of DPS people start running tank comps.

Besides, they would have to utterly overhaul tons of tank abilities (what's unchained going to do? Increase damage? Well then we have to look at IR vs unchained and update as just 1 example of many) and rebalance encounters to account for increased tank damage. All that isn't going to happen. At best you could hope for a tank redesign from the ground up in 5.0 expansion, but no point in hoping for that kind of overhaul from a patch. All that is ignoring the debate of if you even SHOULD do all that. Pros and Cons and all that jazz.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by InnerBeastMode

Could you say this louder for the plebians in the back?

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By what standard does this have to be the template for every single tank in existence?