Lets speak about Mentor's.

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Originally Posted by Xerek

The complaint involved pulling with flash, not simply using it.

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I understand that was the initial post complaint about Flash. What I was commenting on, as shown in my reply, was losing aggro due to not using said skill.

I've witnessed more help given to players without the mentor icon, but I've also never witnessed a mentor leave a duty at the start. So we all have different experiences with the mentors in the game.

In their defense; mentors are human. As such they are susceptible to a bad day just as much as the rest of us, but they should always be ready to mentor if they choose to don their crowns. It's also very easy for me to say that mentors just want the crown and the brownie points, but it is an umbrella statement that is not fair to the mentors that truly do want to help upcoming players.

Personally, I wish there were different kinds of mentors, each having requirements that pertain to the role. I think there should be tank mentors, healer mentors, DPS mentors, and crafting/gathering mentors. As you stated OP, not everyone enjoys each role enough to get it to the required level. And if there were unique mentors, you will know you are getting extensive knowledge from someone who has spent many hours playing that role instead of someone who can tell you everything about one role, but only a general knowledge of another. I also think it would reduce the douchery, even if only a little.

I disagree with separating the battle mentor per role. There's great value in knowing how any specific job plays even when you're on a different job. This can go from knowing what cards to give your party if you're an AST, to knowing how to best interact with your tank if you're a healer. At the very least, in such cases, it's important that you'll know what's expected from a role in general since, like people said here before, it's irrational for them to expect us to level every single job in the game. Fragmenting the battle mentor status further would be counterproductive, imo.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

I disagree with separating the battle mentor per role. There's great value in knowing how any specific job plays even when you're on a different job. This can go from knowing what cards to give your party if you're an AST, to knowing how to best interact with your tank if you're a healer. At the very least, in such cases, it's important that you'll know what's expected from a role in general since, like people said here before, it's irrational for them to expect us to level every single job in the game. Fragmenting the battle mentor status further would be counterproductive, imo.

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This game is designed in a way where you don't have to level a lot of jobs to be effective with your main job. For example, there is no tooltip that says if I cast Holy when a DRK has bloodprice up, I am hurting their ability to sustain themselves. Yet, I still knew about this even before I decided to level DRK. This came with healing experience, and experience with synergizing with my DRK tanks.

I agree that extensive knowledge goes a long way in improving your gameplay, but the current mentor status and requisites don't guarantee this kind of optimal play from mentors when you group with them. This is why it makes sense to either separate the roles for mentor, or increase the requirements to become one. As an example, I play both WHM and SCH. I'm not the best, but I am experienced enough to teach a new player the ropes. However, if a new comer wanted to know how AST plays, I wouldn't have the slightest clue. If there was a healer mentor, and this mentor was required to level all healers, then this changes a great deal.

Hello:)

In 4 month or so, from starting the game, to 70, about Mentors.., Before starting donjon or primal, I said to party " Hey hey...first time here!Plizz tell us what is needed for this fight:rolleyes:"..Even if watching vids before.
...Because since the begining,me and my leveling friend,we can count on fingers the times when "crowned" players would have help us.
Sadly, and mostly saw them vanishing out of the party.Without a single word:confused:
Now that I'm 70,doing my roulette,I 'm just seeing this to many times happening.While after they dont act as mentors, and are replaced by someone else, avec bon sens, the content is asap cleaned.
In my CL we where much talking about this. We came to conclusion, that crowning a player, should be checked regulary. Like being submited to an special party vote, after a content is done. Doing so, could prevent, just the bling bling side, and raise the true helpers above the melee, that really really, doesnt deserve it ^.^.

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Originally Posted by teruk

I've seen some good mentors who have tried to help sproutlings by giving advice in instances/trials and they don't even reply or say anything to the mentors who are trying to help them or they give nasty responses to the mentor who is only trying to help after awhile it does become disheartening that some mentors are like why even bother to try to help if they are going to either a) get no reply/ignored or b) get a nasty reply or yelled at.

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My rule of thumb, unsolicited advice is unwelcome advice.

I usually don't tell tips if they don't ask me.

If the sprouts are doing something wrong, I tell them what they did wrong.

Also, when some primal like Shiva EX pops up, I usually tell them to form a party on partyfinder instead of Dutyfinder, since that will increase the chances of learning and communication. Then I try to tell them how mechanics work and stuff, but I've never managed to clear Shiva EX in the mentor queue. Never. So I understand if a mentor just leaves, and that's why I always recommend them to use Party finder.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

My rule of thumb, unsolicited advice is unwelcome advice.

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That doesn't give them an excuse to be abusive. If they simply don't want the advice there is an easy response: "Thanks, but I'd like to learn on my own" you know, instead of throwing insults over it.

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Every mentor thread is always the same thing.

"Mentors are rude if they give unsolicited advice."
"Mentors are bad if they don't give advice."
"I expect mentors to know everything and perform perfectly otherwise they are bad and shouldn't have the crown."
"All mentors are just wearing the crown to feel superior."
"A mentor kicked me so now I have a vendetta against all mentors"
"A mentor tried to help me, they obviously must be elitist"

Oh and best new one of this thread: "A mentor blocked my NPC with their mount and one other mentor died to mechanics so now I hate them all to such a degree that I think they have mental problems"

10/10 on that one. I almost choked on my tea :D

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Originally Posted by Miste

That doesn't give them an excuse to be abusive. If they simply don't want the advice there is an easy response: "Thanks, but I'd like to learn on my own" you know, instead of throwing insults over it.

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Agreed, but it just means I don't give advice unless they ask.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

I disagree with separating the battle mentor per role. There's great value in knowing how any specific job plays even when you're on a different job. This can go from knowing what cards to give your party if you're an AST, to knowing how to best interact with your tank if you're a healer. At the very least, in such cases, it's important that you'll know what's expected from a role in general since, like people said here before, it's irrational for them to expect us to level every single job in the game. Fragmenting the battle mentor status further would be counterproductive, imo.

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Those distinctions already exist. Once someone obtains mentor status they can set themselves to mentor (crown). Then can also set themselves to PvE mentor, PvP mentor or Crafting Mentor. Each of the three add a small icon to the crown. I normally set PvE mentor, which is a crown with a small sword. The point of my post was, earning mentor grants all four statuses, which makes no sense as I am in no position to mentor anything but PvE.

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Originally Posted by Joven

I've seen so many posts back when I first started playing where people would complain about tanks using (back then) Flash/Overpower too much, saying that if the tank was good they would never have to use it. My opinion is if you have the ability why would you not utilize it? It's nice to see that I'm not doing something wrong whenever I use GLA.

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I'm a self taught tank for the most part(people I knew basically only said "google it" when I asked for advice), I also started my tanking on GLA not long after I completed the 3.0 story. Just from what I had seen, using Flash/Unleash/Overpower 2-3 times depending on mob size, you practically never touch it again until the next pull. That's even with massive AoE going off from party members. It also helps that instead of the standard(as I found out later) "Use your entire 1-2-3 combo on one enemy, then change to the next and repeat", I do the "Every hit you send out, is on the next enemy in line. Only when there is one does it get every blow".

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Originally Posted by Miste

"A mentor kicked me so now I have a vendetta against all mentors"

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Quick fun story for this. When SB launched and I finished the 4.0 story on my main, I hopped on my alt who only just did Final Steps, back when it was current, and then left alone. Because of the time, I got the returner status. I went on my merry way, getting to Xelhatol I think it's spelled? I go in, I'm a tank, so quick pop, and both dps are mentors, also on my server (Balmung OP.)

We're going through, but the pull before the first boss, the healer goes offline. Okay, no biggie, he'll come back soon right? Five minutes pass and they still aren't back. I ask the mentors if it's okay to throw a kick, because it'd be better to get a new healer and finish the dungeon. They said we're waiting, so I assumed they must have queue'd together. Another few minutes pass, healer still not back. I ask if they did go with the healer, and explain I'd like to just get through the dungeon so I can explore more up to date DRK content. Told to "Learn your place" and kicked from the party.

So if people get those mentors enough, I can maybe see why the bias might start coming. That made me end up not doing the content for a few weeks until I just grabbed friends to murder it.

It sounds like there should be something in the game's system that detects when a mentor abandons the fight immediately? Seems like an easy way to detect 'bad mentors' who aren't interested in sticking around and helping people, if they have a constant pattern of doing it.

(I'm a long way off Lv70 anything, but I'd like to be a mentor when I eventually get there. I probably wouldn't be the best expert on tactics, but I'd do my best to help people. Also the 'watering can' icon sounds like an excellent idea.)

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Seems like an easy way to detect 'bad mentors' who aren't interested in sticking around and helping people, if they have a constant pattern of doing it.

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You have no way of knowing if this sort of thing happened intentionally for that purpose, or if there was some other reason that caused them to quit, like realizing their gear was broken, or they realized they didn't have time for this duty, or other irl circumstances. I agree it's unlikely that will be relevant if they keep abandoning duties, but that's why the penalty is in the game in the first place - they're already getting punished for leaving.
Like I said before in this thread, regarding the roulette, it's a dead horse being beat up.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

[...] or they realized they didn't have time for this duty,[...]

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To be completely honest, nobody should queue up for Mentor Roulette unless they do have time for ANYTHING that could pop up(best to have 1-hour you can devote to whatever you get). While other things do pop up(family emergency for instance), there really is no cause for mentors, aside from afore mentioned item, to just drop the instant they zone in and see that it's an EX primal(lets face it, those are the things that most people drop instantly from)

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Originally Posted by Avatre

To be completely honest, nobody should queue up for Mentor Roulette unless they do have time for ANYTHING that could pop up(best to have 1-hour you can devote to whatever you get). While other things do pop up(family emergency for instance), there really is no cause for mentors, aside from afore mentioned item, to just drop the instant they zone in and see that it's an EX primal(lets face it, those are the things that most people drop instantly from)

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Some duties in there have a 120 minute timer I believe, so I always make sure I have 2.5-3 hours spare for queueing into Mentor Roulette. And if we aren't gonna beat it, I'll even set up a Party Finder for the newbies to join in afterwards, and nowadays, I'll even ask my Old Duties Synced LS if any of them wanna come help. We've been doing synced coils recently! :D

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

Some duties in there have a 120 minute timer I believe, so I always make sure I have 2.5-3 hours spare for queueing into Mentor Roulette. And if we aren't gonna beat it, I'll even set up a Party Finder for the newbies to join in afterwards, and nowadays, I'll even ask my Old Duties Synced LS if any of them wanna come help. We've been doing synced coils recently! :D

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I still need to finish the coils(well, restart and actually watch/pay attention to the story of them..)

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Originally Posted by Avatre

To be completely honest, nobody should queue up for Mentor Roulette unless they do have time for ANYTHING that could pop up

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True, but we're only human, and no one pays attention 100% of the time especially in a game where even if you bail on 23 other people in Dun Scaith as a tank, it's still only an inconvenience and not a matter of life or death. These things happen and don't merit having anyone stripped of their Mentor title, least of all if they perform well in all other aspects of the 'job'.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

True, but we're only human, and no one pays attention 100% of the time especially in a game where even if you bail on 23 other people in Dun Scaith as a tank, it's still only an inconvenience and not a matter of life or death. These things happen and don't merit having anyone stripped of their Mentor title, least of all if they perform well in all other aspects of the 'job'.

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I will definitely agree with you there, but will also say that in a vast majority of cases...people need to pay more attention to their surroundings/the time.

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Originally Posted by Avatre

people need to pay more attention to their surroundings/the time.

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True, but this is still a game, something people play to unwind. And while you can argue that if you're not in the mood to be paying attention, maybe you shouldn't queue for Mentor roulette. Lord knows that's when I roll a dps and not a tank or a healer. But you can only be so strict before people prefer to avoid the system rather than put up with all these restrictions and penalties. Ultimately, people will complain about even the most perfect of mentors because that's how people are, and again, this is a game, and one we all pay to play to boot - there's only so much you can demand from a player before even the honest ones don't think it's worth it anymore. It's just that complicated and delicate a matter, which is why, regardless of how widespread this is, SE still hasn't changed the system - looks like the queues filling means more than anything else that comes with the Crown icon.

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Originally Posted by Miste

Oh and best new one of this thread: "A mentor blocked my NPC with their mount and one other mentor died to mechanics so now I hate them all to such a degree that I think they have mental problems"

10/10 on that one. I almost choked on my tea :D

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And I find it funny when people quote out of context. Why? Because it shows that you are hypocrites and you don't even notice.

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Originally Posted by Glenfiddich

Today I've seen a Mentor hovering right in Front of the Quest Giver from the Beast Tribe at the Ruby See so you couldn't see the Quest Mark. He stayed there for at least 3 Minutes (till I left the Area). Good Behavior for a Mentor, no?
Yesterday I was doing Potd with a Mentor Dark Night. He died twice from the Tornado at the 70-80 stage Boss, he just wouldn't move out of the Aoe even when he was told to do so.
There are more stories similar to those.
I've come to the Point were I'm thinking that Mentors are the most inconsiderate, most arrogant and most incapable Players in that Game. I have no respect for them.

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Those were my words.
Now. A mentor is supposed to be a good example and has to help other player to make it easier for them in some way. Blocking a NPC just to show of his new Mount is not my understading for beeing "helpful".

And the DRK? Oh, right, he is a Mentor. Why would he listen to other? He is a Mentor and knows everything better. How dare you to give some advice to a Mentor!, right?

Really, nobody should take you seriously.

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Originally Posted by Glenfiddich

Back

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https://media.giphy.com/media/pUeXcg80cO8I8/giphy.gif

Can I ask you a question Billy? Do you actually have a life outside the Forum? Almost every second post is from you. You must be a lonely Person. Sad.

Posted 11-9:

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Originally Posted by Glenfiddich

you are hypocrites

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Buuuuuuuuuuut....
Posted 11-6:

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Originally Posted by Glenfiddich

As you wish. I'll let you awesome Mentors wallow in your Glory without any further interruptions.

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Who's the hypocrite now?:rolleyes:

One more thing. I want to apology to LadyKairi. I went to far with my reply to her post. Sometimes I forget that there are Human Beings behind the written words.
I'm sorry. I may have hurt her and I really regret it.
I'm sure she is one of the helpful Mentors out there.
Sorry LadyKairi

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Originally Posted by Rymm

Posted 11-9:
Buuuuuuuuuuut....
Posted 11-6:

Who's the hypocrite now?:rolleyes:

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So, In your understanding, if someone is telling only half the truth about someone the other one should stay silent, right? Lol, you mentors are really funny :)

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Originally Posted by Glenfiddich

So, In your understanding, if someone is telling only half the truth about someone the other one should stay silent, right? Lol, you mentors are really funny :)

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"You mentors..."

You are definately looking to vilify mentors as a whole. There are a number of good mentors, out there helping others. There are jerk mentors out there that see the crown as a status symbol and treat people poorly. In the end, I'll continue to give sprouts XP bonuses, and explain things where asked/needed. Judge me as you will.

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If people don't try this sort of content, they'll never step out of their sprouthood even after the icon is gone.

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They need to try it in a different way, like with a PF with people that actually care to run the content. Putting it on mentor roulette was still a mistake. The vast majority of the time I see a difficult instance pop up on mentor roulette, someone just immediately bails, which usually triggers more bails, and the instance ends up not being attempted, being a waste of time for everyone involved. If it wasn't on any roulette, that means everyone that shows up in the instance actually specifically queued for it and wanted to attempt it, reducing the number of immediate bails (although I imagine you'll still get the people that bail after a single wipe...)

I also think it's rather insulting to make the insinuation that a player still is "bad" if they don't attempt/clear EX/savage content. It's meant as a challenge for the more advanced players and it is simply not for everyone.

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What am I missing that sets Savages apart form Extremes in this case?

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You're looking too much into names. Many people have found certain "hard" trials to be easier than their storymode versions. It doesn't really mean anything.

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Originally Posted by Glenfiddich

And I find it funny when people quote out of context. Why? Because it shows that you are hypocrites and you don't even notice.
Those were my words. .

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I didn't even directly quote you if you notice because I simply took the entire thread into consideration.

Those were your words...yeah, but what is your point? You also said:

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Originally Posted by Glenfiddich

In my opinion Mentors do have Mental problems in their Private Lives and the are trying to compensate their failure with that little shiny pixel crown.

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I am sorry if you have an issue with what I posted, but it is simply my view of this train wreck.

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Originally Posted by Glenfiddich

Really, nobody should take you seriously.

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Don't worry, I don't take you seriously either :D

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Originally Posted by Miste

I didn't even directly quote you if you notice because I simply took the entire thread into consideration...

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Right. But you almost choked about the things I was right. And you had to point that out. Hypocrite

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Originally Posted by Glenfiddich

Right. But you almost choked about the things I was right. And you had to point that out. Hypocrite

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I wouldn't say you were right. If you are taking offense at someone being mounted on/near an NPC, I can only wonder how you cope with actual grievances. Best of luck to you in your adventures.

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Originally Posted by Glenfiddich

Right. But you almost choked about the things I was right. And you had to point that out. Hypocrite

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Me almost choking on my drink because I found what you posted funny is being a hypocrite? I don't think your definition is quite correct....

Like I said my post was my view on things said in this thread, you obviously don't like my opinion on it, which is whatever, I honestly don't care, but my opinion about what you posted being funny doesn't make me a hypocrite, sorry xD

Again, from the level of sheer hostility, it's clear nothing is to be gained here. Glenfiddich is outright hostile towards mentors, and even when evidence is presented there may be good ones, it's countered with the argument those good mentors are still bad because they have some kind of mental illness driving their altruism.

You're simply not going to get through to them. No matter how well-formulated a reply you develop, they will still find some explanation, no matter how unlikely, to justify and reinforce their core belief. In other words, you're wasting your breath.

If you want to break bad views toward mentors, the only thing you can really do is keep being a good mentor. Actions speak louder then words, and to this individual at least, the words aren't being heard.

I know I shouldn't respond, but the bait is too good so I'll just say this-

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Originally Posted by Glenfiddich

So, In your understanding, if someone is telling only half the truth about someone the other one should stay silent, right? Lol, you mentors are really funny :)

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I have no comment whatsoever to say about your motives for posting again. I'm merely pointing out two unassailable facts and the conclusion produced when they are taken together:

You said you were leaving the thread.
You still posted again in said thread.

Thanks to your previous posts, it's painfully obvious that you let your opinions and prejudices distort your perception of the world around you. But through a critical, completely unbiased lens, your actions are hypocritical. The reasons driving them are completely immaterial.

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Originally Posted by Glenfiddich

Right. But you almost choked about the things I was right. And you had to point that out. Hypocrite

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I don't think you know what the word "hypocrite" means. Also, I stand by what I said earlier: you say mentors are the hostile and rude ones, but the only hostility and rudeness I see from anyone in this thread isn't from them.

For reference:

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hypocrite
—noun

1. a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, especially a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.
2. a person who feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude, especially one whose private life, opinions, or statements belie his or her public statements.

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Can people let this thread die already?
It's devolved into pointless dribble and name calling.

The real struggle is being a mentor on a closed server (gilga/balmung). NN is just mentors talking at each other because there are no sprouts to help :(

#FreeGreg

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Originally Posted by Glenfiddich

There are more stories similar to those.
I've come to the Point were I'm thinking that Mentors are the most inconsiderate, most arrogant and most incapable Players in that Game. I have no respect for them.

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There are good mentors out there, but a lot of the bad apples ruin it for them sadly.

There really needs to be an overhaul to the mentor program as a whole, like some sort of application outside the game, then maybe some feedback system done by a new player that just started the game that runs with them, if too many negative feedbacks or commendations type situation then they lose their mentor privileges for a period of time, maybe not exactly like this but different from the current set up we have now.

I don't really wear the mentor crown, I mostly just answer questions I can when I see them.
Mostly in Novice Network, but being on Balmung...

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Originally Posted by cakesphere

The real struggle is being a mentor on a closed server (gilga/balmung). NN is just mentors talking at each other because there are no sprouts to help :(

#FreeGreg

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There's not really many 'new' players around. Usually more mentors in the novice network than sprouts/returners.
Still, I can occasionally help people.

I didn't read all the replies, but the OP queued for Ramuh Extreme in the Duty finder and had someone leave.
Obviously they get someone doing the Duty Roulette: Mentor spam to get the mount. In that mentor's eyes he rolled extremely poorly to get put into a trap of Ramuh Extreme. Perhaps the #1 duty out of the entire list that basically guarantees a gigantic waste of time.

It's no wonder why they left.

If I get into a ramuh extreme and it isn't filled, I will immediately leave. Not because I'm a bad "Mentor" but because I'm being realistic. The same thing that happens will happen. We will wait until the party fills. And then we will wipe a couple times, explain things, wipe to the same things over and over, and then eventually all the sprouts aren't having much fun. "This isn't what I signed up for...." and then they vote abandon(I never initiate the vote).

That's not something I want to be part of again.

However, if it's full, I would get a penalty if I left and well.... hey it can be fun every now and then I guess and I do know the fight extremely well due to the many times where I was "Stuck" there although I was generally a good sport.

I've had my fair share of DF ramuh extreme clears and every time it feels pretty good to have been able to accomplish that mighty feat.
I do a lot of callouts, and I teach people the fight and I've even made a few nice Data center friends that way.

So while there are many who like me and call me a great mentor, and that's great and all. That's not my goal. My goal is to just spam the roulette and do my absolute best to clear it and explain things as needed. But if there is a chance for me to dip without eating a penalty on a duty I don't really enjoy doing does that really make me a bad mentor?
The three things SE expects from Mentors:
1. Provide Gameplay advice.
2. Be an exemplar for player etiquette.
3. invite players to novice network and answer questions


I provide gameplay advice all the time.... Sometimes too much but I try my best to help when people are listening.
The second "Rule" is vague. But the way I see it is respect other players and hopefully in return they will respect you.
Third is just there to get people to use the channel which is often very busy. I do spend time in the channel every now and then.


So I ask again, Am I really such a terrible mentor for "Bailing" from a duty that I had just joined even though it wasn't filled?
There is no duty penalty so in my eyes it's perfectly fine. All I am doing is not spending my time in a ramuh extreme and instead queuing for a different duty that needs a player.
Perhaps it does. And that's fine. I'm terrible.

But so are the players expecting anything more from a random person on the internet