What's up with healers not healing?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by missybee

I don't think you were saying it is wrong. I guess I am just of the opinion that no matter what the content, healers should try to be pushing DPS as hard as they can. Whether the DPS are amazing or absolutely terrible, the damage contributed by healers is still helpful.

...well, unless your DPS are pulling sub-3.0 numbers. Then any contribution a healer might make damage-wise is likely to be moot.



For me, it has nothing to do with being "forced." I want to contribute as much to my team as possible in Savage. I think that should be everyone's goal. If DPS checks are super tight, it really isn't hard to cast an occasional damage spell to get a few hundred DPS to ensure a safer and speedier win.

---

Oh I agree with you, i mean otherwise playing Healer would be boring without DPSing. I just find it tiresome that Players fast jump to the conclusion "Blame the Healer" on anything, even if its not their fault.
"Oh you failed a mechanic as a DPS" ----> Blame the Healer for not saveing you
"Oh you forgot to use your Cooldown on a Tank Buster" ----> Blame the Healer for not keepign you alive
"Oh you didnt meat the DPS check and encountered Enrage!" ----> Blame the Healer for not DPSing even more.

While very funny and sarcastic, alot of it holds true lol:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DxS7eT_ky4

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BubblyBoar

No one is asking you to overburden yourself. They are just asking you to do something in your downtime. That's all anyone has ever asked at all and anyone saying otherwise is on the opposite in and don't want to DPS at all.

---

I know that. What I'm saying is that the aggressive stance of some players who without even considering why a person may behave a certain way before they go on the offensive have left me nervous to go back to being a healer.
They just attack immediately, no questions asked. Why use words like lazy etc when you don't even know why? I just wanted to give another perspective to why. That's it.
I used to dps as much as I could anyway, so that's never been a problem for me.

If you die to auto attacks then find new healers. If a healer says I qued healer for shorter que time then I'm hovering over that dismiss player button. Still, I give everyone a fair chance. They get 2 chances and 3 polite explanations of what's required of them if we keep wiping due to healer related reasons. Out of 714 runs only ever had to kick 2 healers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tyranade

I'm a returning player and used to play a WHM which I loved. I'm now feeling very nervous going back to healing and there's no way I will dps if I don't feel I can manage. Does that make me a lazy and bad player?

---

From my experience, everyone is generally very understanding in game, especially towards new healers who are only just learning. The people who are called lazy are the ones who are at level 70 and experienced and choose to do nothing (when no healing is required) when they could instead choose to be helpful and DPS. The healers who stand still, jump around or /dance while watching the rest of their team work. These are the players that get on other players' nerves, not the ones who are trying to play their job well and be helpful to their party but are new and only just learning (or have other things that prevent them from playing the job fully).

When I see a healer who only heals in game, I say to them something like "hey healer, don't be afraid to also DPS a bit!" or "could you please use some DoTs / Holy / Gravity when no one is in any danger?", and then do my best to be supportive and offer advice if needed (usually I only offer the advice after the run is finished so they can consider it for their next run though, so they won't feel too pressured during the run, like today when I asked an AST to do some DPS in Aery and they proceeded to Gravity spam single target boss fights :D I let them do their thing but after we were finished adviced to use DoT and Malefic on single targets and save Gravity for groups).

I will never just blindly kick someone for not DPSing and I've never seen anyone blindly kicked for that either. I also never kick someone if they say that they're new and not comfortable enough yet to try DPS, although I do try to encourage them to try. The only times I've seen healers being kicked for not DPSing (some of them initiated by myself) have been when the healer has replied to a request of participating in DPS with "no I won't, it's not my job", so it's been a question of refusing to cooperate with your party.

Because they figure having Red Mage in a group they can suddenly just focus on dps and Red Mage will be back up healer.
I say this jokingly but at the same time having been with some random healers i wonder if what i posted is true, lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maero

Because they figure having Red Mage in a group they can suddenly just focus on dps and Red Mage will be back up healer.
I say this jokingly but at the same time having been with some random healers i wonder if what i posted is true, lol

---

I had a WHM ask, while synced down to 60, why I didn't help rez as a RDM. Verraise is a level 64 skill...they still asked why I didn't do it after me saying that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Avatre

I had a WHM ask, while synced down to 60, why I didn't help rez as a RDM. Verraise is a level 64 skill...they still asked why I didn't do it after me saying that.

---

... yeah does not surprise, lol
Sure i love to help raise if needed to save from wipes but it is not an EZ card for healers to be lazy

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Celef

I don't get it, we healed you (general you) and you cried we did no DPS and now that we DPS you crie we don't heal you ^^"
#trollandproudofit

---

I don't get it. You as a healer should be able to estimate the situation and to play accordingly. Meaning: You should be able to know when you can dps and when you have to heal. Its the same with tanks, they have to know when they can drop their tankstance and when not. Funny that so many healers play dumb when it comes to play healer properly aka. healing and dpsing when its necessary/possible.

Honestly, red mage has been a massive boon in Savage.

I am new to healing Savage-tier content, so I'm not the best with budgeting my MP. While we are still learning various fights, we have deaths, and excessive deaths are pretty expensive MP-wise. The occasional Verraise and Manashift? Mwah. The best.

I feel pretty strongly about them not having to do that sort of thing outside of Savage though, unless they are feeling really charitable (though I am sure Verraise will be pretty handy in the upcoming 24-man).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maero

Because they figure having Red Mage in a group they can suddenly just focus on dps and Red Mage will be back up healer.
I say this jokingly but at the same time having been with some random healers i wonder if what i posted is true, lol

---

Imagine a Thordan bird farm, going solo heal, and then the solo heal getting pissed at the RDM for not acting as the back up healer.

So glad that farm is done that group exasperated me

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by missybee

The occasional Verraise and Manashift? Mwah. The best.

I feel pretty strongly about them not having to do that sort of thing outside of Savage though, unless they are feeling really charitable (though I am sure Verraise will be pretty handy in the upcoming 24-man).

---

That's the thing. There are healers who expect it so that they can DPS. Honestly, I only use Verraise if someone has been down for a bit, healers are low on MP, or it's a healer and the tanks are taking loads of damage and the living healer can't due to swiftcast being on CD. Manashift is similar, if a healer is 1/4 MP I will do so(or if they just got ressed...sometimes said healer dies within a few seconds so Manashift is wasted). Same with Vercure, if I see the tanks need healing more than me, I will top myself up if the healer(s) are focused solely on the tank(doesn't happen often).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Avatre

That's the thing. There are healers who expect it so that they can DPS.

---

Well those people are dingdongers.

We can do some deeps, but it isn't going to compare to what a RDM can do going ham.

Healers shouldn't expect red mages to be their back-up / mana battery. This isn't XI.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by missybee

Well those people are dingdongers.

Healers shouldn't expect red mages to be their back-up / mana battery. This isn't XI.

---

But they are... I play RDM and yes, I love helping the healer of the team when it's needed and, above all WHEN I DECIDE TO. When the healer is new, or undergeared, I will gladly help him. But Let's be honest I've been kicked 3, maybe 4 times, because the WHM was dpsing and I wasn't healing the tank properly or did not raise the other DPS while our healer was spamming holy. Giving some VerCure is A BONUS, not the way for RDM have to play all the time. The problem with the community is that players decide for others how they should play. Healers SHOULD NOT kick RDM just because they don't do enough heal (while those same healers spend all their mana to dps) and they SHOULD NOT expect for others to do their job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Taika

<snip>The people who are called lazy are the ones who are at level 70 and experienced and choose to do nothing (when no healing is required) when they could instead choose to be helpful and DPS. The healers who stand still, jump around or /dance while watching the rest of their team work. These are the players that get on other players' nerves, not the ones who are trying to play their job well and be helpful to their party but are new and only just learning (or have other things that prevent them from playing the job fully).

---

Thank you for that, it makes sense. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Namida-Hikari

But Let's be honest I've been kicked 3, maybe 4 times, because the WHM was dpsing and I wasn't healing the tank properly or did not raise the other DPS while our healer was spamming holy. Giving some VerCure is A BONUS, not the way for RDM have to play all the time.

---

Why would anyone kick you for not casting vercure? When I'm healing, it annoys the shit out of me when the RDM is wasting dps time to vercure himself or the tank. No one has ever asked or implied that I should heal when I red mage. I could see someone kicking you for doing single target dps on a huge trash pull in that situation, but not because you weren't healing. Man, people who post here have the strangest experiences. Maybe it's an EU datacenter thing? Or SMN mains who are really bitter about your dualcast raise and int-based heal.

Went into PoD and wiped on floor 190~ didn't help that the dps knocked the add the wrong way, but also didnt help that the healer, which i told the fight is rough to heal, started dpsing and half way through couldn't recover mana and we wiped. I mean, common tank tells you expect tank busters and you dps till your manas shot. and then "im out of mana" when it happens. and you're surprised lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aethaeryn

When I'm healing, it annoys the shit out of me when the RDM is wasting dps time to vercure himself or the tank.

---

You and me both.

Yeah, RDM Vericure is fine if someone was just raised by a red mage or something, but to do normal heal top-off work as a RDM, that's a bit much and you should be re-rolling to a healer if you want to do that stuff.

Paladin also has no reason to be doing top-up Clemency work either, because that MP should be going to Requiescat and Holy Sprit damage. You build up the Oath gauge by doing so and proc more Sheltrons to block more damage. So yes, it's really dumb to be playing Paladin healer unless a green healer is dead or something.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by technole

Paladin also has no reason to be doing top-up Clemency work either, because that MP should be going to Requiescat and Holy Sprit damage.

---

-_- I had that happen to me yesterday. Had a PLD tank in Shisui that if he was under 80% 90% of his health he would just Clemency. Even though I would often go Benefic 2 -> Essential Dignity (dependent on how low his health was) -> Aspected Benefic. It would fill his health up so much it just wasted his Clemency. Ok occasionally I would mess up and his Clemency would save it, but it wasn't all that often. In fact more often than not his Clemency meant either he or I overhealed. I think I counted 70 uses of Clemency in that dungeon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

-_- I had that happen to me yesterday. Had a PLD tank in Shisui that if he was under 80% of his health he would just Clemency. Even though I would often go Benefic 2 -> Essential Dignity (dependent on how low his health was) -> Aspected Benefic. It would fill his health up so much it just wasted his Clemency. Ok occasionally I would mess up and his Clemency would save it, but it wasn't all that often. In fact more often than not his Clemency meant either he or I overhealed. I think I counted 70 uses of Clemency in that dungeon.

---

The majority of DF Paladins I ran into are subpar to horrible, and it's breath of fresh air to see one actually use Requiescat and Holy Sprit, things die quicker and you end up blocking more damage, which helps the healer DPS more. Instead you get the crappy top-up Clemency ones that up making AST ED and SCH Excog be wasted or not as potent because they depend on lower HP.

I feel like the sumnary of this thread is really just that healers should be doing something. If you need to spend every moment of the fight healing (from a lack of skill on either the tanks or your own part) then I don't think there is a player who would kick you for not DPSing.

The problems start when a fight does not require anything approaching 100% healing uptime (like literally any normal trash pull with a tank who isn't bottom of the barrel) and there is still no contribution to DPS from the healer. At that point the only real answer to "why not?" is that you think it isn't part of your job.

That is the same as a BRD not using refresh or a RDM/SMN refusing to raise in hectic situations. It is in your toolkit, use it when it is appropriate.

Part of being a really good healer is finding more and more of those places where it is safe to fit in DPS based on the skill level of yourself and the players in your group.

From what I understood in this thread is that some players in here says raid healers are bad because they DPS. The very same players who ask for RDM's to help them heal. /think.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Snolily

Snip

---

Gonna have to rain on your parade a smidge - everyone is looking pretty healthy in that screenshot.

The tank is essentially at full, and if the healer knows there is no huge AoE going out at any time in the nearish future, everyone should be just fine and dandy (moreover, the boss is nearly dead).

Seems a fine time to throw rocks to me!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by missybee

Gonna have to rain on your parade a smidge - everyone is looking pretty healthy in that screenshot.

The tank is essentially at full, and if the healer knows there is no huge AoE going out at any time in the nearish future, everyone should be just fine and dandy.

---

Everybody is entitled to their own opinion but on the boss right before this me, the other dps, as well as the tank died even though we dodged everything dodge-able because the healer was doing the same thing you see in this picture. Now whats more important a healer doing a little bit of damage with the dps dying or the dps staying alive since a dps does more damage than a healer anyways.

We didn't die on that one, even though we could have done the LB but we did die on the boss before that. All I'm saying is don't dps unless topping off the party first. As a healer myself I don't ever dps, that's just how I play the job. Everyone is different but just putting my personal opinion out there. Not like we are bashing anyone just giving an example.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Snolily

Snipperino

---

Then they were probably too greedy on the previous boss, but that doesn't mean they are wrong here. From the screenshot you provided, no one is "dying."

There's a fair chance they might just be getting the hang of DPSing on healer and were a tad overzealous with the rock throwing. Stuff like that happens.

I must say, that is a super-loaded question though. Of course a healer's priority is keeping the party alive. If anyone unironically thinks otherwise, they are wrong. You don't seem to have died on the last boss, however, so as far as I am concerned on Tioman they did their job just fine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Snolily

All I'm saying is don't dps unless topping off the party first.

---

This is objectively inefficient play.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Snolily

We didn't die on that one

---

If there is no wide damage on group for a while, whats the point of topping them off? Like... In susano extreme when he does 3 aoes, I just pop medica 2 right as second aoe is about to hit and I let the regen tick off everyone. Why do I need to overheal them to full when the regen takes care of it? Just an example, you see many whms spam medica till they all full even with medica 2 is up. This isn't good play. Somehow I think most healers who overheal too much doesn't even remember the mecanics and just panic heal for no reason. This is the point where you can see the differenc between a good healer and a bad one.

So this is what it all boils down to, I don't care what people do with their characters and I don't care how they play their character because essentially I don't pay for their subscription. If I won the lottery and I could pay for each and everyone's subscription then I would make smart ass comments about how people do their jobs but it's not my place to do that. So really it doesn't matter what I think or anybody else for that matter because you can't control what people do and talking about it is only putting stress on yourself. So I in my personal opinion am only gonna worry about myself lol. Until I win the lottery then i'll offer to buy your subscription or you mine and then we can complain about what people aren't doin. I posted a picture of what i wouldn't do myself but I can't speak for others and I don't want to lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Snolily

but on the boss right before this me, the other dps, as well as the tank died even though we dodged everything dodge-able because the healer was doing the same thing you see in this picture. Now whats more important a healer doing a little bit of damage with the dps dying or the dps staying alive since a dps does more damage than a healer anyways.

---

Everyone makes a mistake on healer once in awhile and people die...that healer may have gone through the last 30 DF runs healing and DPSing just as they did in your group and no one died in those.

Since we are all human we eventually mess up and butter finger a button or drop our controller or heck the family cat decides to make your computer screen their play toy and suddenly you are staring at cat butt instead of the game.

Mistakes happen...whether he was DPSing or not is kind of not of any consequence because even pure healers make mistakes and someone dies...believe me I've seen it. I've seen pure healers let many many people die even though their DPS is at 0 and all they do is heal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Snolily

Until I win the lottery then i'll offer to buy your subscription or you mine and then we can complain about what people aren't doin.

---

We can also complain in the meanwhile.

It's the OF - it's a place to share ideas, suggestions and complaints...and then subsequently complain about all of those things! :)

what's up with tanks not telling anyone when there about to do super large pulls and then causes the group to wipe because healer can't target them or heal them fast enough.

Being new to the game I have only played with random groups. On the EU servers/data centres I have found the healers to be pretty good overall. It's normally my own stupidity that gets me killed. One thing I think is true with any MMO is healing and healing well is one of the toughest jobs to do.

I'm getting these quite a bit since SB, including one healer recently in Temple of the Fist who just kept spamming Holy until we all died (first pull), then promptly left the dungeon without a word.

I mean, I'm sometimes guilty of going too much on the offensive to the point that we wipe, but I at least own up to it and apologize.

I don't know if it's because they expect PLDs to be able to maintain themselves with Clemency, or what. I mean, I probably *can*, if I pull small. Not with the megapull meta that seems to be all the rage these days, though.

As someone who plays both tank and healer... yea this is a thing. Much like how some tanks will suddenly sprint to grab more adds leaving the healer behind, there are healers who are too busy doing...nothing. Sometimes they are spamming aoes and not paying attention, but I find it usually the afk healers who cause this, sleeping away doing neither damage nor healing.

Honestly, as a WHM main, I see this mostly happening with SCH co-healers during trials. There have been plenty of times where I've ended up running low or out of MP trying to recover from huge AoE blasts in Susano normal, meanwhile the SCH is just DPSing away like nothing's wrong. The fairy, of course, just isn't keeping up at that point. I would think they would at least try to cast something. Personally, I tend to DPS as long as I know I have the MP and time to do it. If sudden, unexpected things happen, I don't hesitate to immediately interrupt whatever DPS spell I'm casting and start healing. Another thing I see is a lot of co-healers that just will not hard-cast a Raise no matter what the circumstances are. As long as the situation permits I hard-cast it if Swiftcast isn't up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Driskus

Honestly, as a WHM main, I see this mostly happening with SCH co-healers during trials. p.

---

You have thin air, Saints and assize. I solo healed it on first try since healer dc. I dpsed and kept people alive, so you must be doing something terrible wrong like over healing. Whm shouldnt have mp issues.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Driskus

...

---

To be fair, SCH should try to avoid using their GCDs to AoE heal. I'd be more worried about those spamming succor to recover from AoE damage than those that are DPSing. Illumination+Dawn or Indom should be their go to before emergency succor for that kind of recovery. Of course, if the SCH isn't even doing that, then yeah, they think this is still HW.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hynaku

what's up with tanks not telling anyone when there about to do super large pulls and then causes the group to wipe because healer can't target them or heal them fast enough.

---

Whats up with healers who sit down if there is not much to heal and let the tank die on a boss even if he uses cd's properly? Please don't tell me the mini bosses in the lowi tam tara hit to hard for a healer who is already 60+ and should have experience, because then i played my healers wrong.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hynaku

what's up with tanks not telling anyone when there about to do super large pulls and then causes the group to wipe because healer can't target them or heal them fast enough.

---

This is why i'm afraid of healing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fredco191

This is why i'm afraid of healing.

---

in this case you let them die, I try my best to heal them but if they don't use some cd's until I get there to heal them it's their fault :/

Don't be afraid to heal, find some friends to learn with if you're really nervous :) When I started I ran with fc members and they understood if we died, I learned from it as well :) If you're low level just go into dungeons and tell them you're new, most peiople will understand :)