Some interesting numbers on 4.0 BLM

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Originally Posted by Waliel

B3 and F3 is a 3.5 cast and why would you cast B3 anyway? Their damage also can't get halved.

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I was admittedly tired. Transpose F3 will come out to about -1.5 on all the scenarios listed then, though the MP tick waiting means F2 will likely not beat out the F2/Flare set up.

So I checked everything from 2 to 10 mobs and this is what I got. Assuming no TC, as then everything goes out the window.

2: T4 B4 F3 F4 F4 Flare Flare
3-5: T4 B4 F3 Flare Flare
6-8: T4 B4 F3 F2 F2 Flare Flare
9+: T4 F3 F2 F2 Flare

The more SS you have, the more T4 B4 F3 F2 F2 Flare Flare will probably creep into other areas, because of T4 clipping.

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Originally Posted by AxiomPITCH

So I put some insight in this thread into practice yesterday. I ran Delta 1.0 a few times using Blizzard IV during every Umbral rotation, my last run ended at 3.8k.

Conversely, I ran it a few more times, this time only using Blizzard IV when Convert was ready for the 8 Fire IV rotation. I cast it a total of three times in the entire fight. My number ended at 4.3k on the final run.

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I'm curious. If you only did 4.0 rotation three times in the whole fight, did you always have Foul up on every UI 3.0 rotation? Wouldn't using 3.0 rotation so much cause Foul to not always be available?

Also, did you not encounter the issue where Thunder III was not refunded before you went back to AF from UI and left you with 120MP, causing you to wait for a mana tick before you could cast Thunder III/Foul in UI?

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Originally Posted by jamvng

I'm curious. If you only did 4.0 rotation three times in the whole fight, did you always have Foul up on every UI 3.0 rotation? Wouldn't using 3.0 rotation so much cause Foul to not always be available?

Also, did you not encounter the issue where Thunder III was not refunded before you went back to AF from UI and left you with 120MP, causing you to wait for a mana tick before you could cast Thunder III/Foul in UI?

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The 3.0 rotation assumes at least 2k MP when moving into ice (F4 x 4 and F1 leaves a full MP black mage at 2400)

This means you B3, Thunder 3, Foul if it's up, then F3. In only the worst case scenarios do you enter with less than 14k MP ( which still keeps you comfortably within the 1-2k MP range). Foul not always being up in UI isn't an issue, because the rotation is much quicker so there is never a danger of overlap

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Originally Posted by jamvng

I'm curious. If you only did 4.0 rotation three times in the whole fight, did you always have Foul up on every UI 3.0 rotation? Wouldn't using 3.0 rotation so much cause Foul to not always be available?

Also, did you not encounter the issue where Thunder III was not refunded before you went back to AF from UI and left you with 120MP, causing you to wait for a mana tick before you could cast Thunder III/Foul in UI?

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I did, but those scenarios are relatively rare. And I always try to watch my MP bar, as to try not to spend it down to not have enough to B3. If such scenarios do happen, I actually do default to the 4.0 rotation because of transpose UI. 0/120 MP > Transpose > T3 > B4 > F3, if I have to move, I have swiftcast saved for Fire III to save the foul oven.

The 4.0 rotation is better on paper, you must modify it to suit your needs for the duration of your next AF. If you know you must move, then skip B4. If you are unsure that you must move, then skip B4. I also try to use it with sharpcast as well, the firestarter proc gives a bit of breathing room for fire iv casts. Every UI you must make the choice. As it has always been with BLM, knowing the content you're running and when cooldowns help you with your rotation the most is how you make the best out of it. But eh, on dummies just use 4.0.

Also yes, my fouls usually end all jumbled up if I deviate after the first 3.0 rotation after the first 4.0 rotation. But it is pretty negligible to cast it during AF if you absolutely have to, especially with the new patch incoming.

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Originally Posted by AxiomPITCH

The 4.0 rotation is better on paper, you must modify it to suit your needs for the duration of your next AF. If you know you must move, then skip B4. If you are unsure that you must move, then skip B4. I also try to use it with sharpcast as well, the firestarter proc gives a bit of breathing room for fire iv casts. Every UI you must make the choice. As it has always been with BLM, knowing the content you're running and when cooldowns help you with your rotation the most is how you make the best out of it. But eh, on dummies just use 4.0.

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So you're saying that 6xFire IV + Blizz IV should be done as long as you can get the full rotation in still right? But if you can't get 6XF4 in, then that B4 wasn't worth casting. Just seemed like you hardly did it if you only did Blizz IV 3 times in the fight. It'll probably be easier in 4.05 to do 6xFire IV with the new 2.8s cast.

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Originally Posted by jamvng

So you're saying that 6xFire IV + Blizz IV should be done as long as you can get the full rotation in still right? But if you can't get 6XF4 in, then that B4 wasn't worth casting. Just seemed like you hardly did it if you only did Blizz IV 3 times in the fight. It'll probably be easier in 4.05 to do 6xFire IV with the new 2.8s cast.

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Yep, that's exactly right. With my current spell speed value (1,478, no food) I have exactly 2.8s cast time on Fire IV/Bliz IV. The upcoming changes will save us roughly 0.8-1.2s in each AF phase across the board depending on your current spell speed. The reason a modified 3.0 rotation (with the addition of foul basically) is "better" without convert is because it allows you to spend less time in UI and more time in AF, as well as more room to use every Thunder proc you get. Unless you can nuke with 6/8 fire ivs uninterrupted in the following AF phase, using T3 > B4 > Foul is just too much time spent in UI. Admittedly I'm still experimenting with the changes, but so far the less I cast Blizz IV, the more damage I do.

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Originally Posted by AxiomPITCH

The 4.0 rotation is better on paper, you must modify it to suit your needs for the duration of your next AF.

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My papers still show 4x being better than 6x with the upcoming changes. Only time this is not true is when you can't cast Foul during ice.

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Originally Posted by Waliel

My papers still show 4x being better than 6x with the upcoming changes. Only time this is not true is when you can't cast Foul during ice.

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That's because you are including Foul (which skews the PPS on 3.0 because it's a shorter rotation). # of Fouls do not change regardless of which rotation you do. You will always get the same amount. If you take away Foul, 4.0 > 3.0.

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Originally Posted by jamvng

That's because you are including Foul (which skews the PPS on 3.0 because it's a shorter rotation). # of Fouls do not change regardless of which rotation you do. You will always get the same amount. If you take away Foul, 4.0 > 3.0.

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This argument is flawed. I have a lengthy description as to why in the main Black Mage thread.
The bottom line is that Foul positioning in the rotation has an inherent cost, and this "let's just calculate the contribution apart" ignores it entirely.
Since neither the 3.X or 4.0 rotation lasts exactly 30s when you account for Foul in UI, you can't just separate it like that.

EDIT: though honestly it's not that important because it turns out the optimal solution ends up being something along the lines of "do 4.0 if you B4 in UI" which, well, you'd obviously do anyway. Also, the 3.X rotation people compare doesn't have two spells in UI (which it must). That's part of the implied premise that Foul will always magically end up there, which isn't really the case (especially for 3.X, you're bound to run out of Fouls).

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

EDIT: though honestly it's not that important because it turns out the optimal solution ends up being something along the lines of "do 4.0 if you B4 in UI" which, well, you'd obviously do anyway. Also, the 3.X rotation people compare doesn't have two spells in UI (which it must). That's part of the implied premise that Foul will always magically end up there, which isn't really the case (especially for 3.X, you're bound to run out of Fouls).

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I understand that it is better to cast Foul in UI. As such I can see the merits of using 3.x rotation there so that you are not forced to use Foul in AF during 4.0 rotation or worse, lose the Foul stack. But the same thing is true for if you do too many 3.x rotations and/or don't get enough procs to extend 3.x rotation, and end up not being able to Foul in UI.

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Originally Posted by jamvng

I understand that it is better to cast Foul in UI. As such I can see the merits of using 3.x rotation there so that you are not forced to use Foul in AF during 4.0 rotation or worse, lose the Foul stack. But the same thing is true for if you do too many 3.x rotations and/or don't get enough procs to extend 3.x rotation, and end up not being able to Foul in UI.

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Yes, exactly. Sorry, this discussion ended up spreading between the two threads.
The idea will be, with the 60second Triple, that when you have triple you go 4.0 (since you'll get more AF leniency due to Triple making casts shorter and you getting enhanced mobility), and otherwise you do 3.X.
This means that whenever you'll have Foul up for UI, you 3.X, and then when you start catching up to the Foul clock, you go B4 into the 4.0 rotation, which you can line up with Triple to get rid of its disadvantages.
The ideal solution alternates between both rotations :)

Since this thread is all about numbers:
Has anyone found out the Spell Speed breakpoint for 4.0 yet?
In Hw it was 16/17, but I couldn't find anything on Sb stat weights yet.

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Originally Posted by AxiomPITCH

Admittedly I'm still experimenting with the changes, but so far the less I cast Blizz IV, the more damage I do.

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So much reading in this thread :eek:, but from what i've gathered - refreshing Blizz 4 in our rotations hinders our dps because it forces us to be in UI more than we have to be versus squeezing out more time in AF? Is there ever a time we want to be using Blizz 4 outside of our opener, even if the encounter allows for it? It just doesn't seem like it from what people are saying.

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Originally Posted by Kaalia_Stormborn

So much reading in this thread :eek:, but from what i've gathered - refreshing Blizz 4 in our rotations hinders our dps because it forces us to be in UI more than we have to be versus squeezing out more time in AF? Is there ever a time we want to be using Blizz 4 outside of our opener, even if the encounter allows for it? It just doesn't seem like it from what people are saying.

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I should just make a new thread.
ATM you can 5xF4 without using B4. This is an unconditional pps gain, and you do this "new 3.X rotation" whenever possible.
The only reason not to is if you get a slow tick going into UI and then don't get a refund on the T3 mana. If this happens, B4 afterwards.
You end up swapping between both rotations based on mana tick timing.

From a concept of class progression, it just doesn't make sense that any alteration of a lvl 60 3.0 rotation should be viable over what the intended lvl 70 4.0 rotation is meant to be. Ok, I guess UI is great for AOE since it lets you flare twice, but outside of that, where are the gains? You can't sell me on it's viability for the mere aspect of allowing me to get an extra tick of mana. I was hoping for something more when the changes to BLM were announced it regards to UI to phase us into our 4.0 rotation without looking back at 3.0. I think they could have fixed this by buffing our Fire IV to pre-nerf levels while under improved UI. That gives us a reason to want that Blizz 4 before going into AF.

Ideally we'd get some kind of cumulative bonus per-time-we-spend-Umbral-Hearts, so that not only is it worthwhile to use B4-F3-F4-F4-F4 on single targets, but it's worthwhile to use B4-F3-F2-F2-Flare on grouped targets.

It doesn't even have to be a straight buff. For instance, what if Foul had a 60s charge timer, but each time you spent one or more umbral hearts you automatically gained 10s of charge?

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

I should just make a new thread.

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I was going to recommend that! Between this thread and BLM Sanctuary, there is a lot of information spread all over the place. It would be great to have a thread dedicated to "Current BLM Rotations"
BTW thanks Galvuu and others that have spent so much time figuring out all of the maths, and sharing your work with us. I really appreciate it!

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Originally Posted by Bahd_Monkey

I was going to recommend that! Between this thread and BLM Sanctuary, there is a lot of information spread all over the place. It would be great to have a thread dedicated to "Current BLM Rotations"
BTW thanks Galvuu and others that have spent so much time figuring out all of the maths, and sharing your work with us. I really appreciate it!

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Agreed, big thanks on all the effort you put into this, both the theory and the testing. I don't think anyone is still caring for that Blm guide, so might be time to do a new one.

Btw, about the Spell Speed issue I brought up earlier, a friend and I tested it out, Gcd decreases by 0.02 every 133 points invested in Spell Speed. You have to spend either 66 or 67 (alternating between increases) points to get an increase of 0.01.

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Originally Posted by Lelila38

Agreed, big thanks on all the effort you put into this, both the theory and the testing. I don't think anyone is still caring for that Blm guide, so might be time to do a new one.

Btw, about the Spell Speed issue I brought up earlier, a friend and I tested it out, Gcd decreases by 0.02 every 133 points invested in Spell Speed. You have to spend either 66 or 67 (alternating between increases) points to get an increase of 0.01.

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I think I did say it was 66 a while back. Dervy's folk have crunched most steps for us in most stats.
I have this huge table that I need to format. Next week I'll put up a new thread, tied up with work :(
Not sure I'm the indicated person for this kind of job, but it's nice to collect all data in one place and I don't mind doing it x)

I don't know which thread to post this on, so I'll post it to both. Apologies if I'm doing this wrong.

So let me see if I got this straight. B4 is a dps loss, but openers and TC rotations make B4 a dps gain?

In single rotation,
If I understand this right, my goal is to: B4 opener, 3.X (5xF4 version), 4.X, 3.X (5xF4 version) with LL, 4.X, 3.X (5xF4 version), repeat from B4 opener...

As for the multiple target rotation,
These are my optimum rotations per enemy total atm:
2: T4 B4 F3 F4 F4 Flare Flare
3-5: T4 B4 F3 Flare Flare
6-8: T4 B4 F3 F2 F2 Flare Flare
9+: T4 F3 F2 F2 Flare

There was a disclaimer for progressing SpS that I left out...

Also, if this is correct, what number of enemies should I switch from single to multiple rotation. I believe in HW, we weren't supposed to switch from single until at least 3 enemies. Can we switch as soon as there is 2 enemies in SB?

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Originally Posted by Finkledoodoo

So let me see if I got this straight. B4 is a dps loss, but openers and TC rotations make B4 a dps gain?

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I believe from my understanding, this is correct, but if someone could confirm that'd be great. Also, if that new thread ever gets going, could it please get linked here =]

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Originally Posted by Kaalia_Stormborn

I think they could have fixed this by buffing our Fire IV to pre-nerf levels while under improved UI. That gives us a reason to want that Blizz 4 before going into AF.

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Or just make it a general buff to all Fire spells with the Umbral Heart bonus.

"Also increases potency of Fire spells by 20."

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Originally Posted by Pyitoechito

Or just make it a general buff to all Fire spells with the Umbral Heart bonus.

"Also increases potency of Fire spells by 20."

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I think the bottom line is B4 needs to provide more than just a mana reduction, or it needs to fire off quicker to make a 4.0 rotation effective and appealing to us. How about making B4 an instant cast when having 3 stacks of UI? Let's say that would make our rotation out of AF: B3>B4 insta cast>T3>Foul (or however would be the best way to stack that for a full mana bar going into AF). A lot of the debate is that B4 just takes too long to cast and keeps us in UI for too long a duration. I mean, B4 is a minuscule speck in our overall damage chart, so I don't think an instant cast is overpowering or would break the game by any means and it reduces our time in UI considerably.

If continued use of B4 is the problem because it is a dps loss, all SE needs to do is make it so that every use of UH increases the potency of the next B4 in relation to the level of Fire used. The numbers should make the next B4 equal to the average of what was used. So F4x3 makes the next B4 hit like a F4. If F4x2 + F1 equals the average. This would make skipping UH and dropping Enochian punishing and working the rotation as intended quite rewarding.

Next, just a thought...
If you want to make it OP, B4 could take on the properties if the fire used as well, that way, F2 and Flare could turn B4 into an AOE... 1 -2 AOE UH can give B4 the depreciating next target mechanic and 3 AOE UH can give flat damage to every target...

My rotation: Whatever feels right.

DPS? There's always better DPS!
Enjoy the class and if you insist studying the rotation, study them.
I am not pro in BLM - in fact, learning sharpcast/tripple/eno-etc..
I enjoy..no..I LOVE BLM!!
People talk about procs that should be open when doing rotations, and I tested, they don't always.
It became frustrating as I played, because I felt I did wrong despite going through rotations written.
When that brought self-esteem down I realized nobody really comments on my gameplay anyway.
Would they behind my back - I will not find out. I realized also it made me uncomfortable to 'play to impress'.
Instead I begin to draw a basic what most say and go from there - the rest will come as I play and I will begin learn at own pace.


What I try to tell is; do not compare class to another class that has no connection to it.
Do not compare class rotation to other class rotation as they are not intended to be compared.
Do not ruin your joy in class comparing in the class rotation - but what rotation you enjoy most.
Play only if you enjoy.