Incentives to NOT queue as DPS

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Originally Posted by Temjiu

Love this idea. IMO I would queue twice as a tank. More XP.

Another Idea that was brewing in the back of my mind: provide an XP token for the in need role. that token can then be applied to whatever class you would like (switch to said class, use token, BAM experience!) it can be scaled to level just like they do the beast quests and such.

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Maybe if those tokens could only be used on DPS jobs, might not be a bad idea. Run the content as a tank, get the token, use it on a DPS and get commensurate exp, scaled to the DPS's level. Effectively it would be leveling your DPS by running an instance as a tank or healer.

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Originally Posted by Naberrie

Maybe if those tokens could only be used on DPS jobs, might not be a bad idea. Run the content as a tank, get the token, use it on a DPS and get commensurate exp, scaled to the DPS's level. Effectively it would be leveling your DPS by running an instance as a tank or healer.

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Those were my thoughts too. It doesn't penalize those who queue as DPS, and I for one would queue far more often as a tank if I could benefit my DPS jobs as a result. Especially once you hit levle cap, and there's not much more benefit outside of some lore tokens (that many tanks will max out on rapidly anyways, even with no extra lore token bonus). But...if i could queue up with my tank at 70, and it would benefit my DPS class im trying to catch up...

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

If you want this model PotD exists but if all content turned into that model I would unsub because it would be so damn boring.

Making two separate play models is needless work when the dev team has much bigger fish to fry.

Tank and healer need larger incentives and those incentives need to grow until this disparity is solved.

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PotD is basically "Tower of Druaga" except with much smaller floors, and the passage is unlocked by killing the monsters, not killing monsters until you find the key. The procedural dynamic dungeon design is essentially the same as Mabinogi.

If Square-Enix wants to mess with players, whatever special dungeon they come out with next should require 8 DPS players. Let's call this "DPS Lemmings". The DPS have to get to the exit without taking any damage. Teach them to avoid AOE's.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Making two separate play models is needless work when the dev team has much bigger fish to fry.

Tank and healer need larger incentives and those incentives need to grow until this disparity is solved.

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Unfortunately I think the disparity will always exist, to one degree or another. Simply put, not everyone likes to tank. They key is to reduce it as much as possible with incentives, while not going overboard on said same incentives. Those incentives need to be 1: simple, and beneficial to the tank w/o being overboard, and 2: be repetitively beneficial. a mount is great, but it's one shot. your done with the incentive once you got the mount. But an experience token for any job you may have...that fits the criteria great.

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

What is wrong with DPS getting shafted?

I really hate to say this blunt, but it is the fault of people who are DPS only mains (Of which there are a truckton) that the issue exists. I personally don't mind one way or the other as I am a healer main and get que pops in 30 seconds 90% of the time; but if the COMMUNITY refuses to go outside of their comfort zone and learn non-preffered roles, nothing changes,

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Because you don't deserve more free stuff beyond what you already get for playing tanks or healers? Like reduced queue times and tanks in demand bonuses. Arguing for more free stuff for doing stuff you claim to like doing is silly. And adding additional dps wouldn't actually harm you in any way, it would just reduce the time dps are in queue. Personally, I don't care that much whether they do it. Even with the expansion my queue times on primal have barely gotten over 30 minutes at max. I just find it amusing that everybody always tries to find a way to get more free crap for doing the same stuff they always do.

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Originally Posted by Temjiu

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Originally Posted by Naberrie

Maybe if those tokens could only be used on DPS jobs, might not be a bad idea. Run the content as a tank, get the token, use it on a DPS and get commensurate exp, scaled to the DPS's level. Effectively it would be leveling your DPS by running an instance as a tank or healer.

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Those were my thoughts too. It doesn't penalize those who queue as DPS, and I for one would queue far more often as a tank if I could benefit my DPS jobs as a result. Especially once you hit levle cap, and there's not much more benefit outside of some lore tokens (that many tanks will max out on rapidly anyways, even with no extra lore token bonus). But...if i could queue up with my tank at 70, and it would benefit my DPS class im trying to catch up...

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Seems a few people are having the same ideas.

It would help dps queues a lot though. I mentioned earlier in the thread (Click here) something like this would have a two fold positive effect on dps queue times and it would.

firstly. if players could get decent exp on there dps classes by rolling as tanks and healers and getting faster queues. then it would increase the number of tanks and healers in the queue.. positive result is that dps in the queue would get groups faster because there's more tanks and thus more groups being made

secondly giving players the option to roll as tanks and healers and level there dps. would ultimately reduce the number of dps in the queue. if 50 players want to level a dps job in levelling roulette and 10 of them decided to go tanks and get the scroll or whatever similar item for there dps. then the dps queue is already down to 40 people just from 10 of them changing to tank.

if we then put 20 of those queieng dps in parties with those 10 extra tanks then we've potentially slashed the dps queue from what would have been 50 players down to just 20... positive result = even shorter queues and thus lower waiting times for everyone. even those dps at the back of the queue. because now there significantly less people in front of them...

and everyone gets to level there beloved dps jobs at the same time. ultimately EVERYONE one wins including the dps at the back of the queue
The main thing with something like this is it would be a pretty easy thing to implement because of it's simplicity.

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

What is wrong with DPS getting shafted?

I really hate to say this blunt, but it is the fault of people who are DPS only mains (Of which there are a truckton) that the issue exists. I personally don't mind one way or the other as I am a healer main and get que pops in 30 seconds 90% of the time; but if the COMMUNITY refuses to go outside of their comfort zone and learn non-preffered roles, nothing changes,

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If you really don't like tanking or healing then being forced into it turns what was once a pleasant hobby into a burdensome chore. Punishing people for not doing their "chores" in a game doesn't make sense when they are still willing to show up to group activities and do their chosen roll well, finish the storylines, do the quests, farm their thingy-mabobs, tough out the grinds, etc.

It's not like they are lazy or self indulgent because they chose DPS, "lazy" is a personality issue not a playstyle, and so punishing or shafting DPS as if they having been holding back or something is illogical.

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Originally Posted by Niluriel

If you really don't like tanking or healing then being forced into it turns what was once a pleasant hobby into a burdensome chore. Punishing people for not doing their "chores" in a game doesn't make sense when they are still willing to show up to group activities and do their chosen roll well, finish the storylines, do the quests, farm their thingy-mabobs, tough out the grinds, etc.

It's not like they are lazy or self indulgent because they chose DPS, "lazy" is a personality issue not a playstyle, and so punishing or shafting DPS as if they having been holding back or something is illogical.

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You aren't being punished for it though. Any more than you're being punished for driving on a busy street during rush hour or going to a popular store on Black Friday.

If everyone wants to spamfuck the same thing at the same thing, there's going to be a line. There's no magical way around it.

The hype will eventually stop as it is and go back to normal 5-10min queue time for DPS...

If I got an xp token for my dps every time I ran content as a tank, I would run all content as a tank all the time

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Originally Posted by savageink

Because you don't deserve more free stuff beyond what you already get for playing tanks or healers? Like reduced queue times and tanks in demand bonuses. Arguing for more free stuff for doing stuff you claim to like doing is silly. And adding additional dps wouldn't actually harm you in any way, it would just reduce the time dps are in queue. Personally, I don't care that much whether they do it. Even with the expansion my queue times on primal have barely gotten over 30 minutes at max. I just find it amusing that everybody always tries to find a way to get more free crap for doing the same stuff they always do.

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Personally, I am not asking for free anything. Never did.

In fact, pretty sure I said I don't care one way or the other I just want to see more people reach outside their comfort zones...

I mean, reading is hard amirite?

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Originally Posted by Derio

If I got an xp token for my dps every time I ran content as a tank, I would run all content as a tank all the time

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This illustrates the problem. You encourage bad tanks rather than good tanks to take advantage of EXP gaming.

What SE needs to do is a way to "sink" the DPS queues by having more things that DPS can do that doesn't require the healer and tank. But these things should not be EXP games. PotD has proven that if you make something easier than the main content, then people will not do the content, thus creating the long queues.

If PotD could only be entered by DPS roles, -THAT- would have fixed it. PotD should have stopped giving out EXP at level 60 and only give out tomes for completing floor 100.

Classic MMO problem that has needed squashing for ages: People should not have to play something they do not want to just to get by. I've mained a healer since WoW: The Burning Crusade in MMOs but I still entirely sympathize with people being asked to wait upwards of an hour just to play one darn dungeon.

If someone is outright forced to play a healer or a tank, despite having no interest in such, it is objectively poor game design. That and the 30++ hotkey design are two of the largest heels in the genre.

The main thing that has always boggled my mind is while tanks are exceedingly unpopular in these games, to the point where designers have marginalized them to a barely existent presence, they refuse to just pull the plug. Designers seemingly insist on the bottleneck despite the fact that a tank, nowadays, is also barely a tank anymore. They have become little more than clunky DPS with threat baked in.

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Originally Posted by Mapleine

Classic MMO problem that has needed squashing for ages: People should not have to play something they do not want to just to get by. I've mained a healer since WoW: The Burning Crusade in MMOs but I still entirely sympathize with people being asked to wait upwards of an hour just to play one darn dungeon.

The main thing that has always boggled my mind is while tanks are exceedingly unpopular in these games, to the point where designers have marginalized them to a barely existent presence, they refuse to just pull the plug. Designers seemingly insist on the bottleneck despite the fact that a tank, nowadays, is also barely a tank anymore. They have become little more than clunky DPS with threat baked in.

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Nobody's forced to do anything though. I do find it funny that you say, "People should not have to play something they do not want to just to get by" and in the same breath, suggest the complete elimination of a playstyle (which actually would force people to play something they don't want).

Even though the tank and healer numbers aren't drastically different, I couldn't help but notice that you didn't suggest the removal of your role. Funny how that works.

I always wonder why the DPSzergfest dungeons in Guild Wars 2 weren't better received. Because people swear that's what they want.

I think a pretty good incentive is NOT being ordered around and being treated like trash? Maybe? Just me? ok.


seriously. don't treat the tanks you get like dirt and don't order them around when they don't meet your standard of a speed run 2 weeks into the launch of an expansion. I know 4 tank mains alone in my tiny server swearing it off because Duty Finder has been getting so toxic lately. I can only imagine how bad it must be on the larger servers.

This is sadly one of the factors on why alot of tanks do not:

1. Tank dungeons with strangers.
2. Quit the role before trying it at endgame.

The first time I leveled a a tank class, I was having issues with keeping agro, the dps started pulling mobs left and right and when something went wrong, I got blamed for it. I was used to these type of situations and developed a thick skin, but not everyone will be oke with it. I did some Mentor roulette and the newcomer tanks were pushed to pull more, pull less, go right, go left etc. They were treating the tanks like an animal. Worst was when something did go wrong and most of the time this was not the tanks fault, they still blamed the tanks. When it comes to tanking, the gameplay is not hard, I find it easier then dpsing. What makes tanking and healer harder is their fellow players.

Fact is unless you are doing Savage or Extreme content, as a DPS you can hide your mistakes or share the burden with a fellow DPS, this is alot harder when it comes to healers and tanks. Unless you are paying attention to the dps or using some tool, its going to be alot harder to find out what the dps did wrong, compared to when a tank or healer is failing.

On-topic.

The problem that we are facing is, there is less tanks and healers then dps players. Now we need to think on to encourage players to play those roles, while understanding that nobody wants to be forced to play something that they dont like. Which is why I think giving them an incentive to tank/heal more is the right path. DPS players have shared on this thread that giving tanks and healers bonus stuff is not fair. My question to those players is: what do you suggest then?

- We can not force DPS players to play tank and healer roles.
- We can not force tanks and healers to queue more everyday
- I doubt the developers will remove the holy trinity from the game. Guild Wars 2 tried this and we know how it ended.
- Yet every (dps) player wants short queue time.

Even if SE were to increase the group size from 4 to 5 or 7, DPS would still outnumber the other two roles. I personaly, do not see how SE could fix this, without removing the other roles.

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Originally Posted by Laerune

- We can not force DPS players to play tank and healer roles. Sadly true. Way to many people think they shouldn't have to do something, it should be someone elses problem.
- We can not force tanks and healers to queue more everyday Nope. I sure as hell won't be ordered to que more to make up for DPS zealotry.
- I doubt the developers will remove the holy trinity from the game. Guild Wars 2 tried this and we know how it ended. The holy trinity is built into the core of this game. In order to break it you need to make the difficulty such a joke.
- Yet every (dps) player wants short queue time. Which they aren't going to get.

Even if SE were to increase the group size from 4 to 5 or 7 I and many healers and tanks would quit. Babysitting 2-4 (In an 8 man I have another healer to help me) tunnelvisioning DPS is enough. If I had to do more I would just straight up quit.

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Bolded my additions

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Originally Posted by Laerune

DPS players have shared on this thread that giving tanks and healers bonus stuff is not fair. My question to those players is: what do you suggest then?

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Suggestions like mine aren't tied to tanks and healers specifically.

Those scrolls I suggested for example are targeted directly at the adventurer in need bonus. Whatever job that is. While I admit that is usually a tank or healer. On my data centre at least it was an almost daily occurrence to see dps have the adventurer in need on the trials and main scenario roulettes at the very least a couple of times through the day..

less frequent at the minute cos of the expansion and all the fotm sam and rdm everywhere you look. but I was in msq roulette about half hour ago and I got adventurer in need bonus as a ninja.

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

Any single one of those would be amazing.

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^^^ In response to a list of free stuff.^^^

Remembering what you posted is hard amirite?

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Originally Posted by savageink

^^^ In response to a list of free stuff.^^^

Remembering what you posted is hard amirite?

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Fair enough. I didn't remember posting that but I did.

Back on topic:

You have three options as SE if you want to fix que times.

1) Force people to play "Off-classes"
2) Make the reward for being an "Off-calss" tremendous enough to get people to invest their time into it
3) Rework content to make "Off-classes unneeded

Beyond that I have no clue what they could reasonably do.

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Originally Posted by Laerune

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To be fair, bad tanks make me very sad. I did expert roulette earlier and got a PLD that thought 1 Flash was enough to consolidate aggro. No, 1 Flash isn't enough. I don't remember the last time I actually needed to switch targets. And I was doing my AoE rotation, which requires me to do single target first to use Rockbreaker. >_>

But I do agree with the double standard sucking. It's just the way the game is sadly, because no official parsers. DPS can't be held accountable but tanks and healers can be.

For me personally, tanking in this game is boring as crap, plus you are at the mercy of your healer not being bad. And heal carrying baddies isn't my idea of fun. So I don't solo queue on tank/healer. Even with the mount and gil incentives, I probably wouldn't queue up. Maybe for the tomestones, but probably not.

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

Fair enough. I didn't remember posting that but I did.

Back on topic:

You have three options as SE if you want to fix que times.

1) Force people to play "Off-classes"
2) Make the reward for being an "Off-calss" tremendous enough to get people to invest their time into it
3) Rework content to make "Off-classes unneeded

Beyond that I have no clue what they could reasonably do.

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Scaling content to player numbers already happens in limited ways in the game. And the characters themselves scale in varying ways depending on which content you do. Adding 2 more DPS slots to a dungeon instance wouldn't be that unreasonable. And Tanks, as mentioned previously (in this thread I think) get mount rewards for being tanks and I don't think that has drastically changed their numbers.

Edit: I don't think they should add them all the time. Just when queue times exceed a certain limit.

Hmm... how about this:

If you queue as the Adventurer in Need, you get a consumable item that increases your XP-gained for one dungeon. This item can be gained once every 60 minutes. For tank mains, this is just another nice bonus, but because it's only once per 60 minutes, if you're always queuing as a tank, you will only get the item once every 2-4 dungeons. Meanwhile, if you're a DPS main and you play tank for one dungeon, you get the bonus item, then you can go back to DPSing for the next dungeon. On top of that, since DPS queues are longer, the 60 minute limit on the item gain is oddly more beneficial to DPS. If you're forced to wait for 40 minutes in a queue then use your item in your dungeon to increase XP, you can then queue tank again right after and get another item. This should increase XP gain on their main class for DPS that queue as tank/healer.

However, I admit that it has plenty of flaws. The one that jumps out at me the most is that it still forces DPS to play something they don't want to just to get better XP. And I think a lot of people would rather just take slightly slower XP gains in exchange for actually playing what they enjoy.

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Originally Posted by savageink

Scaling content to player numbers already happens in limited ways in the game. And the characters themselves scale in varying ways depending on which content you do. Adding 2 more DPS slots to a dungeon instance wouldn't be that unreasonable.

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As a healer main, oh hell yes it would. I already consistently have to blow oGCD's saving only 2 DPS from death due to AoE...I don't have enough patience to deal with 4 running around getting themselves nuked.

You are asking healers to take on extra burden to cover the community obsession with DPS and not offering healers anything in return for the adjustment if DPS slots were added.

Doesn't seem fair now does it?

EDIT: That isn't even taking into account how tanks would have to possibly deal with 4 openers on 4 different targets and still somehow maintain aggro on a pull.

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Originally Posted by Fluffernuff

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Even people who aren't used to tanking and are fresh to it get some nasty stuff. I have an example when I did my first Sastasha run as GLD.

A mentor archer on purpose kept standing behind me when I said for her not to since she would keep getting cleaved. I faced the mobs away as a tank is supposed to and even stated I am new to tanking. Also, this archer decided to go out of her way and pull more towards me. Every time the archer would make unwarranted pulls, the healer let her die while we re-assured the other DPS ( a lancer ) wasn't doing anything wrong. The mentor in question was saying "I am trying to help the other DPS" for some fool reason. Funny enough, they stated that they were a PLD main and I told them I was a newbie tank.

There is also muscle memory to take into account. I am so used to WHM that now when I try to do something else, my brain and body go to look for my healing abilities when I am playing a different class. It takes time to get a pretty different playstyle into your system.

DPS aren't as visible as a tank or healer when in groups when it comes to mistakes, they can get away with those more than the other roles. If a tank or healer makes a big mistake, oh it really shows. But a DPS messing up are more likely slip by with it unless they die constantly. Maybe that is what deters people from playing a tank because of how so much of that focus is on you.

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

As a healer main, oh hell yes it would. I already consistently have to blow oGCD's saving only 2 DPS from death due to AoE...I don't have enough patience to deal with 4 running around getting themselves nuked.

You are asking healers to take on extra burden to cover the community obsession with DPS and not offering healers anything in return for the adjustment if DPS slots were added.

Doesn't seem fair now does it?

EDIT: That isn't even taking into account how tanks would have to possibly deal with 4 openers on 4 different targets and still somehow maintain aggro on a pull.

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You think there is no way to adjust tank and healer output to compensate? It's all numbers. And it's not like they have never had to deal with 6 man group mechanics before.

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Originally Posted by savageink

You think there is no way to adjust tank and healer output to compensate? It's all numbers. And it's not like they have never had to deal with 6 man group mechanics before.

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You are STILL asking healers and tanks to do MORE work to make up for the communties obsession. You are dancing around the issue of how it is fair.

Also, if you buff my healing or give me way more tools to babysit the extras, now you warp balancing in 8 man content which then needs to be redone. it is a little more involved than just, tune some numbers and add more slots.

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

You are STILL asking healers and tanks to do MORE work to make up for the communties obsession. You are dancing around the issue of how it is fair.

Also, if you buff my healing or give me way more tools to babysit the extras, now you warp balancing in 8 man content which then needs to be redone. it is a little more involved than just, tune some numbers and add more slots.

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And you are screeching like change is bad, and never happens in this game. But if you throw more stuff at tanks and healers it will magically produce more tanks and healers. It won't. If they had stuck with 6 man dungeons you wouldn't even know the difference.

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Originally Posted by savageink

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Let me address each in point:

1) I never played with 6 man content, I assume that was 1.0? Since I have been around since mid 2.X so far as I know they have always been 4 mans.
2) No, I think in order to make more tanks and healers you would have to throw RIDICULOUS amounts of free stuff OR make them enticing enough to be game warping, which won't happen. I am 100% convinced the community has a DPS obession and it would take more effort than it is worth to break it. I could care less (anything added is just a bonus), I'm going to heal for my FC either way for instant times.
3) Change is fine, I LOVE what the did with SB in fact. New WHM and AST feel great.
4) You still have not adressed why I should have to do more work (And the tank) to make up for the community.

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

Let me address each in point:

1) I never played with 6 man content, I assume that was 1.0? Since I have been around since mid 2.X so far as I know they have always been 4 mans.
2) No, I think in order to make more tanks and healers you would have to throw RIDICULOUS amounts of free stuff OR make them enticing enough to be game warping, which won't happen. I am 100% convinced the community has a DPS obession and it would take more effort than it is worth to break it. I could care less (anything added is just a bonus), I'm going to heal for my FC either way for instant times.
3) Change is fine, I LOVE what the did with SB in fact. New WHM and AST feel great.
4) You still have not adressed why I should have to do more work (And the tank) to make up for the community.

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6 man was used in FFXI. The other mmorpg. They probably still have the devs and the code lying around for inspiration.

DPS is always the most popular and they should have just planned for it. Or as that other dude earlier on said, make tanking more fun in some fashion. But really every game with the "holy trinity" is like this. Better planning is probably the real solution.

As for the last one, it's irrelevant. If it's balanced properly you wouldn't notice.

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Originally Posted by savageink

As for the last one, it's irrelevant. If it's balanced properly you wouldn't notice.

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That is a hell of an assumption to make and we can just agree to disagree on that.

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

That is a hell of an assumption to make and we can just agree to disagree on that.

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lol! ok. /xtrachr