Put VIT back in Tank Damage Calculation.

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Originally Posted by Lewtskie

Well that's just it, isn't it? I like tanking as tanking, I like the role, but when I can only do my BB combo with an OP in-between and SC whenever its really bad, it's not much fun and a little nerve wracking. Like a Healer that can only pop their primary and secondary cures because the tank is taking so much damage they have no room for much else. Sure, in all technicality we are operating within our designed parameters, but you can't expect everyone to say "This is fun."

And we also should not have to rely on DPS coordinating themselves. Be this a multiplayer game, but in PUG content it's bad design to have to fall on such reliance.

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they should leave the dps how it is , but if its really that bad , they should do something about emnity generation formula for tanks ^^

something like reduced emnity in dps stance

and increased emnity in tank stance 1.5 from what it is now ^^

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Which DPS are ripping hate? I've only had specific trouble with RDM going hog wild, or RDM & SAM splitting targets, Even then, flash spame and rotating targets keeps things sensible.

From my point of view, there are some balance issues, but non of that alters the basic point which is that we can hold aggro, if we focus on it. It might now be exactly how we want to play though. AoE aggro management would be OK if DPS would coordinate instead of doing their best to burn down different targets from each other.

I don't disagree about the need for changes to our ATTACK formulation, and enmity boosts are always nice, but so far, apart from the kind of rude awakening at the start, I've been able to hold hate pretty solidly.

Last thing. I understand that going back to the VIT/STR pairing for attack strength is suggested since it was that way before. But I think that we'd be better off leaving VIT as an HP/resistance kind of stat, and instead looking to Tenacity. A 50/50 split with Tenacity and STR would encourage tanks to use their role statistic more, and stack materia for it. Since it does 3 different things for us, that would appear to me to be the best way to go - but based on the player testing so far it's almost negligible in impact and would need something like a 5 fold increase in impact in order to have any real impact.

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Any DPS played optimally, dealing upwards of 4-5k DPS compared to Tanks whom I have seen at best deal within the 2-3k range, can rip aggro. A key note I would like to mention is how you are going under the context of the current situation; I feel like people aren't looking at this long term, when the damage gap becomes even higher and thus making maintaining aggro even harder. The real problem isn't the now but the future, when the ilvl is higher than it is now; I remember earlier (not sure if it was this thread or another) that someone looked at the pattern of stat increases on gear and predicted the amount of Str we would have at future ilvls. Under their predictions, at i390, DPS would have more than 1000 Str more than a Tank using Vit accessories; that's more than a 1000 point difference in attack power compared to the 4-500 we have right now. Also, doing things like Flash spam shouldn't be required, especially when it becomes mind numbing and people leave the tank role because they don't get to use the full extent of their kit as they are too busy spamming enmity generation, thus causing longer queues for other roles and negatively affecting the overall health of the game.

Depending on Tenacity is not a good idea as secondary stats are not guaranteed on gear. To have a secondary stat having a higher weight than a primary stat is just strange and awkward; not to mention how it would basically have to be present on every gear piece like primary stats are. That said, Tenacity does need a boost as a secondary stat because those tests are showing that it is having rather negligible effects.

I tanked quite a bit the past week as a warrior who I felt would feel the change the greatest.

I have come to the conclusion while, yes, it does force you to tank stance a bit smarter, it hasn't been a huge change.

The bigger change is the dps that wont wait for a tank to take aggro....esp when some sort of placement has to be done for overpower....

The worst offenders? Red Mages. #tankrage
:P

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Originally Posted by NinefoldRakshasa

More like they want people to stop playing tanks and healers.

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Personally one of the reasons I wanted to switch from tank to dps was because of the "Tanks must have leet deeps" mentality the XIV community has. Now I don't have that problem anymore, since its a DPS job to do leet deeps, and im a dps now. So if this had happened before 4.0, i'd probably still be tanking. Oh well.

I'm a mediocre WAR in consideration that I barely ever stance dance unless I absolutely feel DPS is lacking. I have always strived in making sure my healers feel comfortable that I am holding aggro and not about to die all the time. Please stop thinking people who are having issues are just FOR DA DEEPZ.

Players still want to run when I'm now running on less TP and almost none of them have Goad or Enmity reducing cooldowns. Spamming overpower 5 times + Onslaught + Steel Cyclone + Berserk is not fun when you could have done with less Overpower as before AND it's CONAL. AND Steel Cyclone requires a few combos that aren't Butcher's Block AKA OUR ENMNITY COMBO to go off.

Yes, switch this please.

This is silly.

Extremely silly.

So, either lock them OUT so we HAVE to use the new ones or change this.

I just want to pop in and add, if it's somehow difficult to make attack power scale with VIT, the please just add STR to the tank accessories. They're locked out now so there's no reason not to do it.

This is probably part of the plan of making classes easier to play. In HW, you were required to stance dance, if not spend most time in damage stance to be optimal. Tanks would generate so much aggro that they could spend most of the fight in damage stance doing their damage combo with no problem. On the other hand, that was something reserved for raids/ex trials only. A common player could spend a whole dungeon in tank stance and that would not be detrimental to the run (maybe spending 2 or 3 extra mins, but who cares?)

I don't see VIT boosting tank damage anymore because death sickness doesn't reduce VIT. That means tank would still deal max damage while all the others are penalized for dying. A solution to this would be either put STR on tank accessories, or make tenacity meaningful

If nothing happens, I guess the main tank will be stuck in tank stance doing aggro combo to keep up with DPS, especially the super OP samurai

Leave it like it is but add STR to our accessories.

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Originally Posted by HELLruler

I don't see VIT boosting tank damage anymore because death sickness doesn't reduce VIT. That means tank would still deal max damage while all the others are penalized for dying. A solution to this would be either put STR on tank accessories, or make tenacity meaningful

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Well even if we had the 3.x tank damage formula, we still wouldn't be doing max damage as Strength still affected our damage, it just had a lower scaling as we also got attack power from Vitality. Our damage would still be reduced if we had weakness, just not as much relatively as other jobs if we applied the 3.x formula.

PLD main here with a tad of Warrior and DRK and for me it's clear. Ever since they changed it to STR, playing the tanks makes less fun.

It's no secret that there is a shortage of tanks, and taking away damage is the wrong way to tackle it, and nerfing the tanks damage when a huge part of the fun of an MMORPG is doing damage, is counter-productive. You need tanks to especailly balance out all those people playing RDM and SAM now.

Tank DMG should not outclass DPS damage, I think we are all clear on that, but at the same time tanks should have impact on the overall dps and contribute other than being a sentinent striking dummy for the boss and having the occasional swap every now and then.

If SE doesn't change it and fix the enmity generation in 4 man instances (since esp WAR struggle a lot without Flash) and go back to Vit, then I can see myself changing to Red Mage and stop tanking and I am pretty sure I am not the only one.

And about the penalty for death, tbh I'd gladly have hp nerfed after death and have a VIT scaling damage.

They could just add a LITTLE str to tank accessories. Like 25. So with G6 materia that'd be 50.

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

Well if they want to keep tank damage down, why not have VIT increase enmity generation for all tank jobs?

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If Dmg increase enmity, and Vit increase enmity, and tanks have a choice of which of the 2 to use. Which do you think they will chose?

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Originally Posted by RLofOBFL

They could just add a LITTLE str to tank accessories. Like 25. So with G6 materia that'd be 50.

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Unless that amount increases as ilvl increases, it wouldn't help in the long run. The main issue is how tanks don't have damage scaling on their accessories; they really just get more HP. Meanwhile, DPS get more and more damage as they upgrade their accessory. This causes an issue long term due to the increasing damage gap making it more and more difficult to hold aggro as the ilvl increases.

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Originally Posted by Valknut

If Dmg increase enmity, and Vit increase enmity, and tanks have a choice of which of the 2 to use. Which do you think they will chose?

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Well, Tanks may not have too much of a choice. The best Str accessories that they can use are i270, which are outdated and eventually the damage gap will get to a point where it becomes difficult to hold aggro again. If Vit increased enmity and said increase scaled with the ilvl (increasing as ilvl increase due to higher ilvl accessories having more vit), the aggro problem will be solved and if the vit accessories let tanks generate more aggro then it should be a no brainer unless SE makes the DPS checks incredibly strict again and Tank DPS becomes necessary to meet checks, but A3S is unlikely to happen again. Personally, I would just love for Vit to be used in the damage calculation again, but I will take increased enmity from Vit over the current state. Either way, I doubt we will get much of a choice.