Yoshi P to Mr.Happy "Heal DPS is not mandatory and no expectation for Healer to DPS!"

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Originally Posted by Altena

Because they are. Plain and simple.
It's lazy, inefficient, and "average".
Healers have the access and ability to contribute either very little, or a lot.
Choosing not to DPS is choosing to do very little. ie. Lazy

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Sorry calling someone lazy for playing their class EFFICIENTLY is terrible.

You focus on your DPS/Tank and be happy. If you need a healer to push phases you might want to revisit your rotation cause clearly you ain't pulling your weight.

DPSing as a HEALER is OPTIONAL
If you dps as a healer good for you! if you don't it doesn't matter to me cause as long as I'm kept alive I'm happy that you have done your job.

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Originally Posted by Watachy

Take a look at the vid someone posted on the healer section.

Xelphatol, expert roulette while we were all in 240 maximum ilvl.

He casted less than 15 spells the whole run. Means doing nothing the rest of the time.

You're lazy, that's all.

If you think a healer have to heal in this game you should try to play the game, its designed around the fact that everyone have to dps.

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Did the party die? NO so what's your problem?

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Originally Posted by Mature

It's a choice. It's optional.

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Why wouldn't you choose to DPS, though? Give me one legitimate reason, and "BECAUSE IT'S OPTIONAL" does not count.

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Originally Posted by Rasylia

Yes, not dps-ing besides healing means you have free time. But if you pass the dungeon / raid without much effort and the job gets done... why continue to harass them? I just don't get it.

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No one here has used harsh words except for, ironically, the so called ""scrubs"". Scrubs are me and my static members, WE are true scrubs x'D
Calling someone lazy isn't harassment, it's a wake up call to the fact they are not contributing to the team.
If you were at your workplace and have to meet a quota, let's say, sign 100 contracts for fluffly plushies deliveries. At the end of the day your boss comes in and says "hey, I need you to stay overtime, won't pay you and you have to sign the 80 contract your coworker didn't fill because he didn't feel like it". It would piss you off most surely. I for one, if I was the slacking coworker would be upset at myself for messing someone else up. Food for thought.
And yeah a healer might only have to contribute 50% or less (it's not 50% in dungeons but anyways, for the sake of argument) than a dps but at least contribute and don't idle the whole dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Mature

DPSing as a HEALER is OPTIONAL

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Using spells as a dps is optionnal 'cause i can smash mobs with my book.
Dps as a tank is optional since i can spam flash to hold aggro.

Having a brain activity on this forum is optionnal too apparently.

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Originally Posted by Mature

Did the party die? NO so what's your problem?

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Sick of carrying lazy people that ain't involving themselves in the duties.
You're here to play with people, start doing something since healing only means you're doing nothing 80% of the time.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Game design was intended* to be optional. That doesn't mean it was designed to be optional. Design is a result.[/B]

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But it is. Battles are balanced around healer's not doing dmg. That is the design. It is not only intended, but also executed.
Look how easy a dungeon become the moment a healer do dmg for that the dungeon was not balanced.

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Originally Posted by Watachy

Using spells as a dps is optionnal 'cause i can smash mobs with my book.
Dps as a tank is optional since i can spam flash to hold aggro.

Having a brain activity on this forum is optionnal too apparently.

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Doing heal spells as a DPS is optional.
Doing dmg spell/skills as a DPS is required

Doing dmg spells as a healer is optional
Doing healing spell as a healer is required

This is why I play healers in DF... I'm so tired of the "I am only a healer" player.

It baffles me how people react to it. It's not even that hard to do. It kinda shocks me they are calling it "cutting edge" players (As Yoshi-p said), I think it's an overestimation if not exaggeration of its complexity. It's not even maxium efficiency, it's not extremely tiring, it's not your 110%. What's hard about doing a bane on SCH after dots, then heal? Shadowflare works as a form of mitigation because it reduces the monster's speed. An Aero III then some holy spam? Heck, even the stun from it is useful (Disregarding expections (Aka DRK's blood price)) for mitigation. Regens/Shield then some sweet Gravity spam? How is that even hard? Are people seriously thinking that we like healers DPSing 100% of the time?

Yes, mistakes can happen and you can die, the same way you can die as a DPS because you were standing on the bad or a tank with poor CD management.

But my daily dose of realism: Will what Yoshi-p change what people do in-game? Clearly not. Are you possibly going to get kicked by players that want you to DPS but you won't? Most likely! Are you going to get yelled at for not doing it? Yup, that won't change. The GMs won't protect you from this, it still falls into the "Different playstyles" kicking reason, which is not a bannable offense. Yes, I'll personally think they are either bad or lazy.

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Originally Posted by Erys

Calling someone lazy isn't harassment, it's a wake up call to the fact they are not contributing to the team.
If you were at your workplace and have to meet a quota, let's say, sign 100 contracts for fluffly plushies deliveries. At the end of the day your boss comes in and says "hey, I need you to stay overtime, won't pay you and you have to sign the 80 contract your coworker didn't fill because he didn't feel like it". It would piss you off most surely. I for one, if I was the slacking coworker would be upset at myself for messing someone else up. Food for thought.
And yeah a healer might only have to contribute 50% or less (it's not 50% in dungeons but anyways, for the sake of argument) than a dps but at least contribute and don't idle the whole dungeon.

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Except the healer did his job, everyone survived, and you will most likely never see them again. Why is it a problem if the expert roulette didnt finish in 10 Minutes, but in 11?
And please, stop with real life work comparisons. This is a game, meant to provide fun and (in some ways) challenge people. However, if those challenges are easily passed with 2 DPS Classes and a tank (or, in 24p raids, with equivalent more), there is no need for the healers to dps too.
Yes, if they dont want to be bored, or want to be better overall, they should do it! But its not mandatory for anything to succeed, nor should it be mandatory for you to be able to enjoy the game.
If you really need perfect runs, you shouldnt que DF...

I hope the devs reduce all healing by half because otherwise there will still be no need to constantly heal.

It is not mandatory because they don't take into account Healer DPS when designing fights. That said, the amount of DPS from your average DPS class may not be enough to make the designed DPS quota, thus making it necessary for Healer DPS; as for dungeons, they are basically face roll content designed to be neigh impossible to fail.

I am pretty sure all Yoshi P. is saying is that it will always remain POSSIBLE for healers to not DPS provided that ALL other intended upon conditions are in place, like DPS dealing, what was it, like 80-90% of their dummy damage. You can't forget this context. As for more casual content like dungeons, healer DPS isn't mandatory on account of how easy it is. To make Healer DPS mandatory would mean to add in enrages, shorten the time limit, and/or lengthen the content so that it would be impossible to clear without the healer DPS'ing. Aside from obviously making the game likely impossible for their main demographic if they took such a route; doing so will make other strategies, like mass pulls, likely unviable. It's emergent gameplay and should be something that is encouraged.

Healer DPS may not be mandatory and content may not be designed with the intention of healers DPS'ing, but it is definitely being supported and encouraged. They want us to DPS as healers, they just aren't making it mandatory because the game may become too difficult if it was mandatory. They never that healers aren't intended to DPS; if they did then why give Healers DPS skill?

Huge difference between healer DPS not being mandatory and healer DPS not being intended.

On a side note: If I ever see a Healer not DPS'ing, I will immediately begin to mass pull possibly and probably every enemy I can. You want to heal? Well now you get to heal. If you don't like it, your options are:

A) Convince at least one other DPS to kick me and beat me to the vote dismiss option. I won't mind; I have an instant dungeon queue.

B) Get kicked by me for difference in play style. You have Healer Queue anyway so it isn't too bad; not as good as Tank Queue though, but better than DPS queue.

C) Leave and take the leaver penalty. Though no reason to do this considering how fast queue times are for healers and you only need to be 5 minutes into a run to kick; compare this to a 30 minute penalty.

Regardless of the topic of this ridiculous thread i really wish the point being made that anything Yoship says is absolute and non debatable is a little ridiculous.

Just because hes the head developer doesn't mean hes 100% perfect in every way, hes made mistakes, game content has failed in some areas, hes a human not god.

Yoship has his own opinion on how the general playerbase should reach expectations, but that does not mean what he says is absolute fact, please understand that.

Plenty of games have failed miserably in the past because the developers had that mindset that they were basically gods and knew all there was too know, which is just frankly wrong.

i mean for gods sake 1.0 failed horribly because the head developer at the time was wrong in nearly every decision made, think about that for a minute alright?

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Originally Posted by Hamada

Are you being dense on purpose to troll or provoke controversy? It effects the team because as said, the lack of effort is an insult to those that put in effort

You are playing dense, if it is not ok for a DPS to hit a button once a minute, it is not ok for a healer to hit a button once a minute, learn what teamwork and putting in the same effort means.

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If you think being brutally honest if being toxic you need a good reality check ASAP. I'm putting things under perspective. I'm telling you a very simple fact that you and other can get their head round to it , DPSing as a healer is OPTIONAL. Simple as that and trying to FORCE others to do what you want them to do it even worst.

the dps actions are there. You either chose to use them or not it's not my problem as it shouldn't be yours. As long as the healer keeps me alive that's all that matters to me.

When I next go into DF on my SMN, I'm just going to use Ruin. Nothing else. Just Ruin.

I mean, maximum efficiency is optional, right? Why does it matter if a run takes 30 minutes or 40 as long as it gets done? If you want a perfect run, you really shouldn't be using DF.

If this debate continues, I would not be suprised to see SE remove the option for healers to dps in dungeons and raids at all. This will only hurt those of us who do like to dps in dungeons and raids.

Less healers doing dps means we need to rely on dps doing actual (decent) dps. May the lord help us all when that day comes.

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Originally Posted by Mature

Sorry calling someone lazy for playing their class EFFICIENTLY is terrible.

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But it isn't efficient.
Why would you be under the assumption that doing the bare minimum to get by on any job is "efficient"?
Being efficient is achieving maximum potential within as little effort/time as possible.

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You focus on your DPS/Tank and be happy. If you need a healer to push phases you might want to revisit your rotation cause clearly you ain't pulling your weight.

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Lol. I actually play all 3 roles, quite often. I also strive to do as much as possible to contribute to my party.
This is inclusive of DPS on healer.
It is much easier to increase raid DPS when one party member who was doing 0 DPS suddenly starts to do "some" DPS.
It is much more difficult for a DPS player who is already at or near their maximum potential to increase their DPS.

It's not even remotely about "DPS aren't pulling their weight".
It's about contributing more to your party as a healer so stuff dies faster, and people don't have as many chances to die to mechanics.

If a boss dies in 2x full rotations instead of 3x, and is 1x less rotation full of mechanics that the party can wipe on.

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DPSing as a HEALER is OPTIONAL
If you dps as a healer good for you! if you don't it doesn't matter to me cause as long as I'm kept alive I'm happy that you have done your job.

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Being lazy is also optional.
Feel free to be lazy, but you will likely get some pretty cranky people that don't respect your "bare minimum" approach.

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Originally Posted by Mature

DPSing as a healer is OPTIONAL.

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Answer me:

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Originally Posted by Watachy

Using spells as a dps is optionnal 'cause i can smash mobs with my book.
Dps as a tank is optional since i can spam flash to hold aggro.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

When I next go into DF on my SMN, I'm just going to use Ruin. Nothing else. Just Ruin.

I mean, maximum efficiency is optional, right? Why does it matter if a run takes 30 minutes or 40 as long as it gets done? If you want a perfect run, you really shouldn't be using DF.

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You are beeing childish.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

When I next go into DF on my SMN, I'm just going to use Ruin. Nothing else. Just Ruin.

I mean, maximum efficiency is optional, right? Why does it matter if a run takes 30 minutes or 40 as long as it gets done? If you want a perfect run, you really shouldn't be using DF.

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Í didn't know that SMN was a healer class.

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Originally Posted by Rasylia

You are beeing childish.

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No, that's being as lazy as healing only healers.
Why should bother myself providing my best for the duty while the special snowflakes is afk 80% of the time ?

Wow! This discussion is really funny.
All you who say healers should dps (in casual content lol), and that it's an insult if they don't etc. blabla
You take this game waaay to serious! rofl

But please move on. I'm bored at the office right now. It helps me passing the time.

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Originally Posted by Rasylia

You are beeing childish.

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How so? I'm only repeating what you and several other users have said. If being efficient is optional for healers, why not DPS? Why not tanks?

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Originally Posted by Rasylia

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Número 1: healer did nothing, casted 4-15 spells the whole run and afk'd the rest. The rest of the team contributed with probably a thousand of pulsations each.
Number 2: healer dps doesn't cut only 1 minute of time. And it's not only about the time, it's about making your tank and dps work far harder. Your tank will have to use more cooldowns if you don't dps, the dps will run out of offensive cooldowns and or resources; snowballing into the next pull being slower and bosses sloppier.
3: real life comparisons work. Even if this is a game there are 4 people in the team in dungeons. All 4 want to have fun. What is not fun for anyone is the extra stress from having to effort further because 1 crank in the engine is not spinning. And I use real life comparisons because english is not my mother tongue and it makes it easier for me to express myself.
4: it's also not mandatory for me to aoe, or use any skills at all. Autoattack will kill the mobs eventually.
And MOST IMPORTANT, number 5: I don't need perfect runs, don't want them either. I just want everyone in the run to put effort (not perfect effort, no one is perfect), and afk'ing is not putting effort, no matter how you slice it.
At least I'm happy that you tried to put a normal human being argument together. Thank you for tending a bridge between the two sides, I appreciate that *insert here thumbs up emoji*

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Originally Posted by Watachy

No, that's being as lazy as healing only healers.
Why should bother myself providing my best for the duty while the special snowflakes is afk 80% of the time ?

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My argument about everyone doing his job and you complete the dungeon is beeing ignored, and i face a childish "if they dont do what i say, i do nothing too"-arguement.

Honestly, if the healer heals, the tank tanks, and the dps ds's, you complete EVERY content out there (not talking about savage) easily.

THAT was my arguement.

If he only casts ruin, he isnt doign his job -> DPS-ing.

How is it okay for people to act childish when it comes to being FOR healer dps, but people who are AGAINST it are beein ridiculed?

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

How so? I'm only repeating what you and several other users have said. If being efficient is optional for healers, why not DPS? Why not tanks?

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I think that's because the OP posted a comment about Yoshi saying "I firmly believe that it should not be mandatory(Healers DPSing) and we do not have the expectation for them to dps!".
He didn't say anything about Tanks or DPS.

And if I'm correct, the Tank DPS thing has already been a hot topic back when tanks could use DPS trinkets and whether or not it was a must for most efficient DPS output.
We know how that went, tanks got their own Tank only trinkets now.

Looking forward to waking-up and seeing this thread argument on page 30 and beyond. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Erys

Stuff

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#1 Contribution never mattered in this game.
#2 People keep saying "its okay to only do little damage, at least do dmg" so this isnt exactly applying.
#3 If you can only have fun if the other people do what you want them to do you are not really fit to play multiplayer games
#4 healer doing his job = healing
You doing your job = DPS-ing.
If healer doesnt heal = Blame him
If you dont properly DPS = Blame you.

Stop making weird comparisons.
If the healer doesnt dps (the extra thing) he is still doing his thing = healing.
If you stop doing proper dps, you arent doing your thing correctly anymore.

If healer who don't dps are lazy how about dps who need their healer dps ?
You should be able to complete a fight (even savage and even minimum ilvl) without healer dps because the design isn't count on healer dps. If you can't maybe you aren't good enouth or maybe you are lazy !

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Originally Posted by Rasylia

If he only casts ruin, he isnt doign his job -> DPS-ing.

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But I am DPSing. I am dealing damage, as is expected of my class. Why does it affect you how other players do their jobs? The dungeon will be finished eventually, and that's all that matters, right?

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

When I next go into DF on my SMN, I'm just going to use Ruin. Nothing else. Just Ruin.

I mean, maximum efficiency is optional, right? Why does it matter if a run takes 30 minutes or 40 as long as it gets done? If you want a perfect run, you really shouldn't be using DF.

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That's just a poor and a terrible example. Dps got rotations a healer HAS NOT.

DPS = pull damage
HEALER = pull heals

If the healer was given rotations to heal these convo would be different BUT the reason why healers hasn't got rotations if because it's needs to look after EIGHT MEMBERS or FOUR not just spamming cure 1 to one member. A healers got a hard job when it comes to raid.

So please think before throwing nonsense plus looking at your character I don't even know what you doing posting in this thread anyway

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Originally Posted by alex4815162342

If healer who don't dps are lazy how about dps who need their healer dps ?
You should be able to complete a fight (even savage and even minimum ilvl) without healer dps because the design isn't count on healer dps. If you can't maybe you aren't good enouth or maybe you are lazy !

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This is one of the thngs that people need to discuss more about. The reason why healers need to dps is, because the average dps is underpreforming. Dont get me wrong, I believe that healers who are doing nothing, should contribute more, but low dps is a big problem.

SE acknowledged that low dps is a big issue, this is why they are revamping the battle system. I would not be suprised to see any need for healer dps in non raid content if the dps was doing decent damage.

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Originally Posted by Mature

That's just a poor and a terrible example. Dps got rotations a healer HAS NOT.

DPS = pull damage
HEALER = pull heals

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Ruin is a damage spell, spamming ruin pulls dmgs as you expect it.

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Originally Posted by Rasylia

Honestly, if the healer heals, the tank tanks, and the dps ds's, you complete EVERY content out there (not talking about savage) easily.

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So the tank can spam flash, and the DPS smash people with their books. We agree on that. Let's go for 80 min duty o/

Basically what he said:

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

But I am DPSing. I am dealing damage, as is expected of my class. Why does it affect you how other players do their jobs? The dungeon will be finished eventually, and that's all that matters, right?

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

But I am DPSing. I am dealing damage, as is expected of my class. Why does it affect you how other players do their jobs? The dungeon will be finished eventually, and that's all that matters, right?

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Originally Posted by Watachy

So the tank can spam flash, and the DPS smash people with their books. We agree on that. Let's go for 80 min duty o/

Basically what he said:

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You still miss the part about me saying "If everyone does his job properly, the dungeon finishes easily".

Healer = Healing
Tank = Tanking
DPS = Dealing Damage

You demand this:


Healer = Healing + Dealing Damage
Tank = Tanking
DPS = Dealing Damage

Your "arguement" is that if #1 applies (everyone doing what he is supposed to do) you can also do this:

Healer = Healing
Tank = Tanking
DPS = Doing shit because he is a chilidish kid who doesnt want to dps if the healer doesnt dps.

But then not everyone is doing what he is supposed to do. But, apparently logic doesnt reach you.

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Originally Posted by Mature

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If you struggle healing four people, please stop healing.

And where does it say rotations are mandatory? As long as I'm dealing damage, why does anything else matter?

Simple solution: Make dungeons harder for more heal moments and include healer dps in balancing dps checks.

Let see how long it need until some people want nerfs.

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Originally Posted by Felis

Simple solution: Make dungeons harder for more heal momements and include healer dps in balancing dps checks.

Let see how long it need until some people want nerfs.

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Someone got it!

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

If you struggle healing four people, please stop healing.

And where does it say rotations are mandatory? As long as I'm dealing damage, why does anything else matter?

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You are absolutely right looking at your character how would you know or understand what we talking about anyway

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Moving into something more relevant.

DPSing is OPTIONAL as a HEALer.

Move on and be happy

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Originally Posted by Felis

Simple solution: Make dungeons harder for more heal momements and include healer dps in balancing dps checks.

Let see how long it need until some people want nerfs.

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Day 1: PLEASE SE NERF IT Q_______________________Q

The primary job of healers is to heal, not DPS. Keep people alive overrides killing a mob most of the time except under very specific circumstances, such as "we're all dying anyway just try to burn it and see if we kill it before it kills us". However, not doing DPS ever at any time on a healer because "you don't feel you should have to" is not good. Straight up. If there's nobody hurt, NOTHING that requires your attention whatsoever and your response is "alright, time to just stand here" that is not good. No, it doesn't mean all healers who choose to not DPS are terrible baddies. No, it doesn't really matter all that much in a 4 man dungeon or roulette. Yes, it does mean you are not performing your role as a member of a team (not role as a healer, role as a party member) to the best of your abilities.

Not choosing to DPS ever as a healer is the same thing as a Bard or Machinist that decides not to use MP/TP regens, a Summoner who doesn't Virus or res when the healer isn't able to, A Black Mage who doesn't use Apoc, a Ninja who never uses Goad, Smoke Screen or Shadewalker, a Monk who doesn't Mantra, and so on. None of those abilities are "part of their role as a DPS". None of those abilities allow them to do more damage, and they can hit massive DPS numbers and "do their job" without ever using any of them, thereby fulfilling their role as a DPS. But they aren't a great DPS because they aren't using all of the tools available to them. They are not contributing to the team as much as they could be. The same thing applies to healers, DPS is their Smoke Screen/Shadewalker/Mage's Ballad/Goad/Mantra.

Doing DPS when nothing is going wrong with the party's HP or status ailments or a mechanic that requires attention is not coming up is playing your role as a member of a team to its fullest potential, even if you're just getting a couple DoTs out there. It doesn't matter if you aren't setting the world or the FFlogs charts on fire with your massive DPS. You're still trying.

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Originally Posted by Rasylia

Healer = Healing
Tank = Tanking
DPS = Dealing Damage

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You know that there is no need for heal every min in casual content right ?

Sounds like:
Healing only - jumping around
Tankingg - DPS while keeping aggro
DPS- dps

The entire game is designed in a way that everyone have to dps.

I DPS a lot as a healer, sometimes I'm tired, my focus is low and I don't. Dungeons take a bit longer than usual... like 5 minutes longer. But according to the forums, every time a healer doesn't DPS it brings us closer to the next Calamity.