Samurai Discussion

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Originally Posted by Greywolfamakir

But im sorry if i offend you, it wasn't my intention. I wont waste more time on this forum, people barely know how to sum two integers...

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That depends on the time frame you are counting. If you are going first skill to last skill it's only 42.48. If you are going beginning of first gcd to end of last gcd it is 44.64 as you say. Either way your condescending attitude is not called for.

plus you forget to take in account the gear, don't it's better to do the math without take in account the gear impact, means 2.5 gcd as base?

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Originally Posted by Greywolfamakir

I wont waste more time on this forum, people barely know how to sum two integers...

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http://1heurf2kk91pad4b23w0jddl.wpen...12/Drama-1.jpg

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Originally Posted by Greywolfamakir

My time is perfectly fine dude.

But im sorry if i offend you, it wasn't my intention. I wont waste more time on this forum, people barely know how to sum two integers...

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It's exactly as Steelbreeze said, you are basically counting a different time frame.

http://i.imgur.com/iXeQgs9.png

Well, you tried.

Edit: And anyway, the point is not whether we count from beginning till end of last GCD or the beginning of last GCD. The point was about you posting a higher potency/time opener.

So would this opener change if you're the only one applying the slashing debuff (PLD/DRK composition for example)?

Will you prioritise Yukikaze first?

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Originally Posted by KrazyBean94

So would this opener change if you're the only one applying the slashing debuff (PLD/DRK composition for example)?

Will you prioritise Yukikaze first?

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For better or worse, yes. The 3-1-2 combo (3. Hakaze-Yukikaze, 1.Jinpu-Gekko 2.Shifu-Kasha) yields slightly more potency/time when you don't have WAR to apply Maim for you. The difference is very minuscule but if we want to min-max everything you take it into account. Of course, when you have WAR that applies Slashing Debuff for you, the difference in potency/time becomes noticeable.

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Originally Posted by Herokoon

Probound awesome job dude, but I see you added in the enbi, but not the fourth shinten, it belongs 2 globals after Hakaze, and Jinpu, right before the last Gekko.

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Thanks for the heads up. Fixed it let me know if that looks right.

Updated: added 4th Shinten

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k8...psvnmfxmw4.jpg

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Originally Posted by Sai-Kon

For better or worse, yes. The 3-1-2 combo (3. Hakaze-Yukikaze, 1.Jinpu-Gekko 2.Shifu-Kasha) yields slightly more potency/time when you don't have WAR to apply Maim for you. The difference is very minuscule but if we want to min-max everything you take it into account. Of course, when you have WAR that applies Slashing Debuff for you, the difference in potency/time becomes noticeable.

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Ok so we use Hagakure with 1 Sen, and I Simulated a lot of situations to find a better solution but couldn't find one :P
I read that Hagakure would be a dps loss if we arent using it with 3 Sen and now I see a good solution with 1 Sen
And how about the rotation with Hagakure?
Sorry for my bad english

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Originally Posted by KennyRedsteele

Ok so we use Hagakure with 1 Sen, and I Simulated a lot of situations to find a better solution but couldn't find one :P
I read that Hagakure would be a dps loss if we arent using it with 3 Sen and now I see a good solution with 1 Sen
And how about the rotation with Hagakure?
Sorry for my bad english

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I must have missed this hagakure with one sen. When would you do that? I haven't seen any openers that contained this yet unless I'm blind. Do you mean Higanbana (which can only be cast with one sen)?

Is Starry Eyes useless? It costs the same Kenki as Hissatsu: Shinten but has 100 less potency. Would there be a situation were you'll actually use this skill over Merciful Eyes?

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Originally Posted by KrazyBean94

Is Starry Eyes useless? It costs the same Kenki as Hissatsu: Shinten but has 100 less potency. Would there be a situation were you'll actually use this skill over Merciful Eyes?

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Taken from the Reddit Thread

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Starry Eyes might possibly only cost 15 Kenki according to the Japanese tooltip + players experence. Based on the "5 Kenki=60 Potency" rule then Starry Eyes would be better to use over Hissatsu: Shinten.

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So its a small potency gain to use Starry Eyes over Shinten assuming the tooltips are wrong, however just getting it to proc is the obstacle. Seems very situational as we only have 3 seconds to take damage from Third Eye. Think of it as a Reprisal (DRK ability) that we only have 3 seconds to proc DMG taken (vs. Parry any attack anytime). Pretty lame. I hope they adjust it to at least 5 seconds. Unless Melee Tanking Adds is going to be a thing, i can't see any real world usage for these sets of Eye Skills asside from the "Oh i have a prey icon above my head, better pop Third Eye, then self heal with Merciful once damage is taken".

15 Second CD on Third Eye, I guess SAM might be the Self Healing Melee kings?

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Originally Posted by KrazyBean94

Is Starry Eyes useless? It costs the same Kenki as Hissatsu: Shinten but has 100 less potency. Would there be a situation were you'll actually use this skill over Merciful Eyes?

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Starry's eye actual cost is 15 kenki (not 25 as stated on gamer escape picture). It is an efficient attack but it is situational.

I re-calculated efficiency of Hagakure and found out that in the end Hagakure is not worth the 3 Sen you spent on it, contrary to what the post on reddit claimed. When you consume all 3 Sens for 1x Hagakure, you get 720 potency out of it. That equals to 1x Midare Setsugekka. The only benefit of Hagakure is 1 weaponskill because Midare Setsugekka requires 1 GCD while Hagakure doesn't. The one GCD you cast after the combo is Hakaze which equals to 5 Kenki. 5 Kenki equals to 60 potency. So by using Hagakure you only benefit by 60 potency. But this benefit is when you cast Midare Setsugekka alone.

When you buff Midare Setsugekka with Kaiten, you get +360 potency benefit, which is an actual +120 potency benefit over Shinten for that cost. Substracting the earlier +60 potency benefit you got from 1 Hagakure equals +60 potency benefit in favor of Kaiten. In other words, every time you cast Kaiten + Midare you yield 60 more potency than Hagakure.

Theoretically, you would get a benefit from Hagakure in 8x uses of it, which would grant 3 Sen. 8x Hagakure translates to approximately 5 minutes and 20 seconds of non-stop fight. But there is no such fight with non-stop DPS, there is always downtime for mechanics and downtime is a value loss for Hagakure.

Also when you convert the 3 Sen with Hagakure, it takes some time till you spend all the Kenki on Shintens, and in the opener it is a DPS loss because the earliest you can cast Hagakure is at 16.87 seconds after pull (assuming you start with 3-part combo, Higanbana, then Meikyo Shisui to get 3 Sen, then Hagakure) and the 16th second is when cooldowns like Trick Attack end, or for Battle Litany it has 3-4 seconds left till it falls off. Probably this is why Daioh tried to double weave 2x Shinten so that they get buffed by Battle Litany but that is very risky because ping and server lag are apparent in FFXIV and you might end up delaying your next weaponskill by a second or more.

Overall, that means that there is no realistic benefit from spending 3 Sen on Hagakure at all. I will try to calculate if there is any value/use to it. Important note: All the theorycrafting here is based on what we know. There is always the possibility that there might be potential changes during release and Hagakure become more valuable or Midare less potent. In the light of all the things mentioned above, the rotation I posted earlier, while still good, it probably isn't very efficient either because apparently Hagakure isn't as efficient as alternative options. I will start on a new simulation and this time I will only post here when I get final results of the most optimized rotation, which takes into account everything, not before.

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Originally Posted by Tsilyi

I must have missed this hagakure with one sen. When would you do that? I haven't seen any openers that contained this yet unless I'm blind. Do you mean Higanbana (which can only be cast with one sen)?

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Originally Posted by Sai-Kon

Oops, there was a mistake while typing it. Let me correct it right away:

Hakaze - Jinpu - Gekko - Iaijutsu - Hakaze - Shifu - Hissatsu: Shinten - Kasha - Meikyo Shisui - Gekko - Yukikaze - Hissatsu: Kaiten - Iaijutsu - Kasha - Hagakure - Hakaze - Hissatsu: Guren - Jinpu - Gekko - Hakaze - Yukikaze - Hissatsu: Shinten - Hakaze - Shifu - Kasha - Hissatsu: Kaiten - Iaijutsu

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There we use 1 Sen

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Originally Posted by Sai-Kon

I re-calculated efficiency of Hagakure and found out that in the end Hagakure is not worth the 3 Sen you spent on it, contrary to what the post on reddit claimed. When you consume all 3 Sens for 1x Hagakure, you get 720 potency out of it. That equals to 1x Midare Setsugekka. The only benefit of Hagakure is 1 weaponskill because Midare Setsugekka requires 1 GCD while Hagakure doesn't. The one GCD you cast after the combo is Hakaze which equals to 5 Kenki. 5 Kenki equals to 60 potency. So by using Hagakure you only benefit by 60 potency. But this benefit is when you cast Midare Setsugekka alone.

When you buff Midare Setsugekka with Kaiten, you get +360 potency benefit, which is an actual +120 potency benefit over Shinten for that cost. Substracting the earlier +60 potency benefit you got from 1 Hagakure equals +60 potency benefit in favor of Kaiten. In other words, every time you cast Kaiten + Midare you yield 60 more potency than Hagakure.

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You are wrong again...You forget that Kaiten costs 20 Kenki.

Long Example:
1 complete rotation potency:
150 * 3 = 450. (Hakaze)
450 + 340 = 790 (Yukikaze)
790 + 280 = 1070 (Jumpu)
1070 + 400 = 1470 (Gekko)
1470 + 280 = 1750 (Shifu)
1750 + 400 = 2150 (Kasha)
8 GCDs = 2150 potency + 55 Kenki.

Now we have 2 options:

Hagakure
With Hagakure we will have 115 kenki (Max Kenki is 100, i know, but its no relevant here) with 8 GCDs, then.
Shinten kenki Ratio = 12 (300 / 25 = 12)
115 kenki * 12 = 1380 potency from kenki. Total Potency = 1260 + 2150 = 3530 Potency with 8 GCDs.
3530 / 8 = 441.25 Potency per GCD

Midare Setsugekka + Kaiten
With Midare Setsugekka + Kaiten we will have 35 kenki (35 - 20)
Shinten Kenki Ratio = 12 (300 / 25 = 12)
35 Kenki * 12 = 420 potency from kenki
Midare Setsugekka + Kenki = 1080 potency. Total Potency = 1080 + 420 + 2150 = 3650 potency with 9 GCDs.
3650 / 9 = 405.55 Potency per GCD
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tl;dr:Hagakure is better than Midare Setsugekka in terms of potency.

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Originally Posted by Arcana

http://1heurf2kk91pad4b23w0jddl.wpen...12/Drama-1.jpg

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https://media.makeameme.org/created/i-couldnt-agree.jpg

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Originally Posted by Greywolfamakir

tl;dr:Hagakure is better than Midare Setsugekka in terms of potency.

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Don't try so hard to sound smart, it's not. You should compare equal things, not 8 GCDs to 9. If you add one Hakaze to the Hagakure calculations so that the comparison is between equal things (9 GCDs in the current context), you will notice that it turns out that Hagakure calculation you did there gives 408.88 potency. This is a mere 3 potency difference than the Kaiten + Midare rotation, however, the math here is on a theoretical spectrum and does not take into account that Midare will be cast while either Trick Attack or Battle Litany is still up and will fully benefit from that, while not all 3 Shinten you get from Hagakure benefit from raid cooldowns because it requires a bigger span to spend the Kenki on Shinten (between 2-3 GCD), which renders Kaiten+Midare not only better but also way simpler to manage in a pragmatic scenario. Your math doesn't take into account that any downtime during fight where you don't use Hagakure right off the bat when it comes off cooldown due to mechanics will result in Hagakure losing value and hence DPS loss, so over the span of a fight Hagakure rotation will end up losing more value. Next time think more before you try to copy-paste calculations without looking at the whole picture.

Sensing quite a bit of animosity there.

Anyway, all these calculations are great, but we have to see how it somewhat feels. I don't believe Sam will be difficult, just spend kenki wisely and plan ahead. I do appreciate the opener. Though I am starting to understand the calculations a bit more. What most people probably want to knoiw is, what exactly takes priority in more simple terms than numbers.

I would also be more interested in understanding the latencies and I get what your getting your calculations from but I haven't put it together completely yet.

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Originally Posted by Sai-Kon

Next time think more before you try to copy-paste calculations without looking at the whole picture.

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I didn't copy-paste nothing else out of me, I did that maths, they are mine, they are right. I know you dont like it, Midare Setsugekka is really cool and you want that Midare Setsugekka be better than Hagakure, but im sorry, Hagakure is better.

9 GCDs: Hagakure = 415.5 p/GCD Midare Setsugekka + Kaiten= 405.55 p/GCD
10 GCDs: Hagakure = 408 p/GCD Midare Setsugekka + Kaiten = 386 p/GCD
11 GCDs: Hagakure = 418.18 p/GCD Midare Setsugekka + Kaiten = 381.81 p/GCD
12 GCDs: Hagakure = 400.8 p/GCD Midare Setsugekka + Kaiten = 393.33 p/GCD

I can reach 500 GCDs but it wont change the result...

About Trick Attack...Litany...etc, you can spend 60 kenki during buff window easy, if you cant, use Midare Setsugekka or learn how to spend 60 Kenki faster.

Hagakure has 40 seconds CD, its a really good DPS CD, I understand that its less cool than Midare Setsugekka, i agree, i dont like Hagakure indeed, but its not about what i like it about potency and math.

In fact, Samurai just has 3 DPS CDs, Hagakure, Meikyo Sishui and Guren. When you dont have Hagakure, Meikyo Sishui and Guren you'll do normal rotation with Midare Setsugekka + Kaiten

you know that all your theory are kinda.... wrong? since we all know the number we have are not the right one... don't look too much into it for find the perfect rotation based on wrong number.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

you know that all your theory are kinda.... wrong? since we all know the number we have are not the right one... don't look too much into it for find the perfect rotation based on wrong number.

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Yeah i know, but you can easily change pontecies on a spreadsheet, if they change Midare Setsugekka potency or Shinten pontecy or Hagakure's amount of kenki per Sen they could change that Hagakure is actually better than Midare Setsugekka + Kaiten.

But with 1 or 2 months away from release i assume that they wont change mechanics or add/remove skills, so think about "openers" or "rotations" is actually good because im just creating a base that will work if they change potencies.

So in regards to Third Eye it lasts only 3 seconds correct? Now let's say I trigger the effect so I can use one of the two abilities. Do I have a certain amount of time to use those abilities or will they stay "active" until I use one of them?

According to the wording of the skills it looks like as soon as you use Third Eye, you get the buff called Open Eyes. The Open eyes buff itself lasts for 3 seconds and reduces damage from the next hit by 20% as well as allow you to use either Starry Eye or Merciful Eyes since the wording on those abilities is, "While under the effects of Open Eyes..."

So far this opener was the best I came up with. http://i.imgur.com/R8v5RPA.png

Hakaze(5k)>Yukikaze(15k)>Hakaze(20k)>Jinpu(25k)>Iaijutsu(higanbana)>Gekko(35k)+Meikyo Shisui>

Shifu(40k)>Yukikaze(50k)+Hissatsu: Guren(0k)>Kasha(10k)>Hagakure(70k)

>Hakaze(75k)+Hissatsu: Shinten(50k)>Jinpu(55k)+Hissatsu: Shinten(30k)>

Gekko(40k)+Hissatsu: Shinten(15k)>Hakaze(20k)>Shifu(25k)+Hissatsu:

Shinten(0k)>Kasha(10k)>Hakaze(15k)>Yukikaze(25k)+Hissatsu: Kaiten(0k)>Iaijutsu

Not sure how it compares to all the other ones.

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Originally Posted by RaizeGraymalkin

So in regards to Third Eye it lasts only 3 seconds correct? Now let's say I trigger the effect so I can use one of the two abilities. Do I have a certain amount of time to use those abilities or will they stay "active" until I use one of them?

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When you use the skill "Third Eye" you gain a buff called "Third Eye" for 3 seconds.
Left Icon
http://i.imgur.com/ScLeQxw.png

If you get hit while "Third Eye" buff is active, this hit will be reduced by 20% and you lose the buff "Third Eye" gaining a new one called "Eyes Open" for 15 seconds:
http://i.imgur.com/LgnqekP.png
Left Icon:
http://i.imgur.com/ZRNwPtf.png

While you under the effect of "Eyes Open" you can use "Merciful Eyes", its an instant heal with 500 potency.
http://i.imgur.com/3uD9pAH.png

or you can use "Starry Eyes" its an attack with 200 potency and 25 Kenki cost [English tooltip from April] // 15 kenki cost [Japanese tooltip more recent].
English tooltip:
http://i.imgur.com/u0QQxVi.png
Japanese tooltip:
http://i.imgur.com/dwPhMJF.png

Source, example and details: https://youtu.be/HGyWVo91HBE?t=373

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Originally Posted by Cynric

So far this opener was the best I came up with. http://i.imgur.com/R8v5RPA.png

Hakaze(5k)>Yukikaze(15k)>Hakaze(20k)>Jinpu(25k)>Iaijutsu(higanbana)>Gekko(35k)+Meikyo Shisui>

Shifu(40k)>Yukikaze(50k)+Hissatsu: Guren(0k)>Kasha(10k)>Hagakure(70k)

>Hakaze(75k)+Hissatsu: Shinten(50k)>Jinpu(55k)+Hissatsu: Shinten(30k)>

Gekko(40k)+Hissatsu: Shinten(15k)>Hakaze(20k)>Shifu(25k)+Hissatsu:

Shinten(0k)>Kasha(10k)>Hakaze(15k)>Yukikaze(25k)+Hissatsu: Kaiten(0k)>Iaijutsu

Not sure how it compares to all the other ones.

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Dervy came up with a opener that capped out around 280+ pps, should cehck out the Balanced Discord and jump into the SAM discussion. Alot of openers have been debated but so far no one has beaten his and it seems like it will be the standard.

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Originally Posted by MiruWest

Dervy came up with a opener that capped out around 280+ pps, should cehck out the Balanced Discord and jump into the SAM discussion. Alot of openers have been debated but so far no one has beaten his and it seems like it will be the standard.

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Could I get a link to that discord?

Yea, I would appreciate the link as well.

https://discord.gg/CjQkEn3

Could someone post his rotation? I searched through the discord but couldn't find it.

Twould appear there has been some heated debate in this thread,I would ask we all keep it civil. This thread is to discuss Samurai and it's possibilities,if you have any ideas or would like to point out any mistakes by all mean,be prepared if your the one who made a mistake though. We're all trying to find the best way to play the job.

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Originally Posted by PROBOUND

Thanks for the heads up. Fixed it let me know if that looks right.

Updated: added 4th Shinten

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k8...psvnmfxmw4.jpg

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Thank you PROBOUND for taking the time to make these Pictues and putting up with changes we make. ^_^

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Originally Posted by MiruWest

Dervy came up with a opener that capped out around 280+ pps, should cehck out the Balanced Discord and jump into the SAM discussion. Alot of openers have been debated but so far no one has beaten his and it seems like it will be the standard.

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Originally Posted by MiruWest

https://discord.gg/CjQkEn3

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I have searched through the discord but have been unable to find this opener,would you be able to post it for us?

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Originally Posted by Daioh

I have searched through the discord but have been unable to find this opener,would you be able to post it for us?

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you have to go to #registration and type ~join Samurai

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Originally Posted by Tsilyi

you have to go to #registration and type ~join Samurai

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Thank you Tsilyi ^_^

Trying to access it through discord on my phone with no luck.

I think thats the rotation https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...18/unknown.png

But the point is that his rotation is about 183s(My Opinion: I dont need a 3min rotation just a great opener and a priority system) and he got a misstake he used Kasha 2 Times there has to be Gekko i think so if you copy it you have to change it
he used 1 Sen Hagakure and there are some other rotations and all with 1 Sen Hagakure but in my opinion the rotation he used is with i think crit and about Raiding with NIN/WAR so in this discussion its not very usefull

I just want to know like other classes about the priority system like Midare Setsugekka always with Hissatsu: Kaiten so what about the rest?

And again English is not my main language so it might be bad

And Dervy's Opener is pinned in the Discord Channel
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...48/unknown.png

Need a bit of help as someone going back into DPS after so long of healing...

I'm a bit ignorant so please bare with me.

Does it look like with the new changes... is there a reason not to fill every DPS slot with samurai over the other DPS? Is the other DPS buffs/debuff outweigh samurais DPS (because from what I understand they hit much harder)

To further this, if it doesn't warrant everyone going sam... how many sam? Just 1?

Please keep in mind the last time I went heavy DPS was in 1.0 when we stacked monks or black mages... and lost the elemental wheel as a result

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Keramory

Need a bit of help as someone going back into DPS after so long of healing...

I'm a bit ignorant so please bare with me.

Does it look like with the new changes... is there a reason not to fill every DPS slot with samurai over the other DPS? Is the other DPS buffs/debuff outweigh samurais DPS (because from what I understand they hit much harder)

To further this, if it doesn't warrant everyone going sam... how many sam? Just 1?

Please keep in mind the last time I went heavy DPS was in 1.0 when we stacked monks or black mages... and lost the elemental wheel as a result

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Theorycrafters are currently saying that in a straight up 1:1 comparison, SAM is indeed ahead of the other DPS. But once you factor in the raid damage given by things like Battle Lit and TA, then SAM is only ahead slightly by maybe 50 or so DPS. But this is also going off numbers from a very old build so no one will know for sure until patch day.