[1206] Water spells

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Originally Posted by Lucifer

Ifrit is a victim of this casual crap you're eating. I was hoping Ifrit was just something for the players to do while they implement their crap but it seems they are going to completely remove the need for anything RPG. There are no tactics because this is what we are getting. You can pick up Rift and do the same crap that is the Ifrit fight.
You will have the SAME experience.

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Um. Ifrit is way more tactic-based than any FFXI fight I've done. In FFXI you just stay in one spot and pewpew or curecure. Unless you're a BRD. Then you just 2hr. And that's not a casual game.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Everything they do is with long-term in mind lol, that's the point of an overhaul though I guess people at times forget this because XIV's servers are still live.

Besides, I'm sure Rukki-Rukki was posting behind Bayo :D

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I've not had an issue with any patch thus far, mostly because I am able to see that a long term plan has been in the works. I use what is currently available knowing that it is not final.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Because we have a community devs attention ... and hmm I duno I would like to know ..

Besides the words Cure, Cura and Curaga aren't going to tell me if they are water based are they.

/sigh Lucifer if this game is too carebear for you go play FF11.

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Aside a few boss/HNM/NM fights, XI is more 'carebear' than XIV and even WoW currently. I can see where Lucifer is coming from though.

As for water based, yes, healing has always been either Water, Light or Wind based. There's some exception, but quite a bit of RPGs (including FF) it fell into one of those 3.

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Originally Posted by Rukkirii

There aren't any water-based attack spells, but conjurers do control water-based spells. The break down of elements are as follows:
CNJ: Water/Wind/Earth
THM: Fire/Ice/Lightning

Also, there are no paralyze/poison/silence/absorb/slow and there aren't any plans to implement them before the launch of version 2.0. However, as we move forward, if it becomes absolutely necessary to utilize them, we will look into it.

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Fail. :/

Let me fix it:

There aren't any water-based attack spells, but conjurers do control water-based spells. The break down of elements are as follows:
CNJ1: Water/Wind/Earth
CNJ2: Fire/Ice/Lightning

Also, there are no thaumaturges and there aren't any plans to implement them before the launch of version 2.0. However, as we move forward, if it becomes absolutely necessary to utilize them, we will look into it.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Aside a few boss/HNM/NM fights, XI is more 'carebear' than XIV and even WoW currently. I can see where Lucifer is coming from though.

As for water based, yes, healing has always been either Water, Light or Wind based. There's some exception, but quite a bit of RPGs (including FF) it fell into one of those 3.

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Thats too bad, I guess he'll have to consider quitting gaming :(

It would be nice if they accelerated the addition of the new mage class in light of this info.

Something like a enfeebling/buffing Astral/Umbral class that would evolve into the Red Mage Job.

It would certainly help fill out the significant gaps in the current roster.

So they control water based spells but have no water based nukes? Let us know instead of just chaining things we pretty much already understand. Does it effect cures? Does it effect buffs?

At first I was a bit dissapointed with this post but the more I think about it the spells they are excluding seem perfect for a RDM class. Keeping these spells specifically to one class would make it very individual/desireable too I hope.

The one thing I don't understand is splitting the nukes? I presume Black Mage will have access to all? If not then it stands to reason cure spells should be shared...

I appreciate things are probably not set in stone so you can't post about it but sketchy bits of information like this can be quite annoying!

I just hope they really think about why these classes didn't work in the first place and rather than over complicating the new system just start again. I know lots of people like the class system but I'd be much happier with clear classes. I like the idea of an evolving class e.g. Mage branching off to specialisations but the job system in XIV seems like something just tacked on to classes. A video of a class level 50 then one of the respective job level 50 would be nice to see so we could see some of the key differences.

Perhaps/Mayhaps Redmage will be the enfeebling master.

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

So they control water based spells but have no water based nukes? Let us know instead of just chaining things we pretty much already understand. Does it effect cures? Does it effect buffs?

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I think they assume people would know healing is generally Wind/Water/Light based, controlling elements doesn't necessarily mean controlling nukes.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

As for water based, yes, healing has always been either Water, Light or Wind based. There's some exception, but quite a bit of RPGs (including FF) it fell into one of those 3.

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Uhm so in the Leviathan fight we're gonna punch ourselfs while Leviathan is casting CuragaXIV on the party?
And mobs with water weakness are gonna be either undead or just... free from elemental weaknesses?

IMHO elemental affinities/weaknesses and the fact that all the elemental nukes were basically the same and you had to keep in mind the relation betwen the mob and the spell in order to get the most damage output was a huge step forward from FFXI and elemental nukes from all of the elements, simple and clean, without any other addition or debuff is a benchmark of BLM in the Final Fantasy serie... isn't it what they were aiming for with the class revision?

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Originally Posted by Elexia

I think they assume people would know healing is generally Wind/Water/Light based, controlling elements doesn't necessarily mean controlling nukes.

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This is probably the case I just wish they were more clear when they made this kind of posts what they are refering to. It's obvious the way they have posted this is going to annoy players, I'm all for them sharing information but when it's sketchy like this it leads to too many assumptions.

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Originally Posted by Alcide

Uhm so in the Leviathan fight we're gonna punch ourselfs while Leviathan is casting CuragaXIV on the party?
And mobs with water weakness are gonna be either undead or just... free from elemental weaknesses?

IMHO elemental affinities/weaknesses and the fact that all the elemental nukes were basically the same and you had to keep in mind the relation betwen the mob and the spell in order to get the most damage output was a huge step forward from FFXI and elemental nukes from all of the elements, simple and clean, without any other addition or debuff is a benchmark of BLM in the Final Fantasy serie... isn't it what they were aiming for with the class revision?

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this would not be the first time that an element can both be used to heal and hurt
one example FF7, healing wind limit break. tornado wind damage

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Originally Posted by Alcide

IMHO elemental affinities/weaknesses and the fact that all the elemental nukes were basically the same and you had to keep in mind the relation betwen the mob and the spell in order to get the most damage output was a huge step forward from FFXI and elemental nukes from all of the elements, simple and clean, without any other addition or debuff is a benchmark of BLM in the Final Fantasy serie... isn't it what they were aiming for with the class revision?

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This is pretty much how I feel too. As much as some players like the class system it's one of the reasons the series come under such scrutany at release. I'm not trying to cause trouble here either, I'm going to happily pay the subscription fee to help support the game along even though I play at most 2 days a month. I have faith this will come out the other side an amazing game and some of the things they have planned are so exciting. It's just the new class/job system seems a bit uneccesarily complicated to me. I like the idea of RDM being the only enfeebler etc as it promotes varied party play but I like BLM as BLM and WHM as WHM.

I also worry about going forward that in order for them to keep introducing jobs they will need to also create a class that compliments it. This effectively doubles the time it takes to make new jobs and one thing I love in an MMO is varied classes. It's probably my main reason for playing XI for all those years. I just don't see how this system can give birth to jobs like Scholar, Blue Mage, etc.

Those overall changes are odd, it's like why bother having rods and wands that have elemental affinity for all 6 elements when you can't even customize which element you want to do the most damage with. It really takes away from allowing a mage to customize themselves in being efficient in the element of their choice. However, it may work with how the abilities all seem to level at the same pace so in the end, aside from Water all the elements should be able to dish a decent amount of damage regardless of if they are an AOE, single target, enfeeble based effect.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

I think they assume people would know healing is generally Wind/Water/Light based, controlling elements doesn't necessarily mean controlling nukes.

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Makes sense, I just wish they would inform us on the big picture ya know? Like what's gonna happen with the elemental wheel we have now and the future. I mean I loved focusing on water spells but wouldn't mind if it focused on your healing spells.

And I know light doesn't equal white mage and dark doesn't equal black mage... but it seems like they are kind of going this root, especially with changing the astral/umbral damage?

Like earth, water, and wind will now be astral damage
and ice, fire, and lightning will be umbral and go to the respective mages? Just ranting thoughts lol

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Originally Posted by Alcide

...elemental nukes from all of the elements, simple and clean, without any other addition or debuff is a benchmark of BLM in the Final Fantasy serie... isn't it what they were aiming for with the class revision?

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Uh, not really. BLM's standard nukes have generally been Fire/Ice/Thunder (or "Bolt", or "Lit" because that was fewer characters). Water did get added to that core set in a couple of the later games. But many (most?) of the FF games had other elements that the BLM or main nuker couldn't use that only had a few odd one-off spells, summons, abilities, or weapons that produced those elemental effects (earth and wind, usually water). I would actually say one thing that has made the FF series stand out compared to a lot of other RPGs is the total *lack* of a balanced elemental wheel or opposition chart in almost all games.

I agree that the FFXI system where certain elemental nukes were weaker due to level progression was pretty dumb, but with ability scaling that's not an issue here. And I think not making every nuke exactly the same and spreading the elements out makes for a much more interesting tactical situation. I assume that encounters are going to be built with the goal of not making any class totally useless. And in fact, one strong way to do that might be to add back a couple of BLM's many, many interesting non-elemental spells that have gotten short-shrift over the years. (I was just playing FFIII recently, and there's so much more to BLM life than Fire/Ice/Thunder.)

In other FF games things had a weakness beyond the pre FF10 trinity of Fire/Lightning/Ice such as Water, Earth and Wind but players don't normally get access to those spells except in rare situations or have to use weapons with said property.

Using FF7 as an example;
Aqualung is an Enemy Skill with Water Element, used on water weak enemies. There is no other spell to do water damage beyond Leviathan as far as I recall, and probably use other weapons.

You see Laps cast Aero 3 which is a wind nuke that players don't get. However, some enemies are weak to wind in the game.

People seem to be seeing the 3 elements splitting as a step back but I honestly don't mind; and as far as how Water damage spell/Enfeebles is missing, we might get them in the future or maybe we won't. It's pointless to rage and be jerks to the devs about something when there's so many drastic changes in the future, which we agreed to.

If you want to forward criticism, that's fine. But some of you are absolute jerks going about it as if the world caters to you.

I just want to know why the BLK/THM class/job description states 6 elements... lol I preferred they just get 3 each, because having to re allocate nukes every mob is was nauseating.

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Originally Posted by Alcide

Uhm so in the Leviathan fight we're gonna punch ourselfs while Leviathan is casting CuragaXIV on the party?
And mobs with water weakness are gonna be either undead or just... free from elemental weaknesses?

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Perhaps /sarcasm

Leviathan uses tidal wave, drowns the party, brings them back to life as undead then proceeds to nuke them with CuragaXIV.

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Originally Posted by Airget

Those overall changes are odd, it's like why bother having rods and wands that have elemental affinity for all 6 elements when you can't even customize which element you want to do the most damage with. It really takes away from allowing a mage to customize themselves in being efficient in the element of their choice. However, it may work with how the abilities all seem to level at the same pace so in the end, aside from Water all the elements should be able to dish a decent amount of damage regardless of if they are an AOE, single target, enfeeble based effect.

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Assumption.
If water magic is healing then Water staffs and wands will hopefully boost healing. I would actually much prefer a system where a healer equipped water based gear and materia than ones with healing potency for example.

Leviathan staff can i have it ?

Also, while I'm a bit disappointed in needing to wait that long for an enfeebling class, as long as one is coming that's fine with me. Just, again, hoping it's something other than RDM (geomancer!) so RDM can actually be the magic fencer for once.

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Originally Posted by Rukkirii

There aren't any water-based attack spells, but conjurers do control water-based spells. The break down of elements are as follows:
CNJ: Water/Wind/Earth
THM: Fire/Ice/Lightning

Also, there are no paralyze/poison/silence/absorb/slow and there aren't any plans to implement them before the launch of version 2.0. However, as we move forward, if it becomes absolutely necessary to utilize them, we will look into it.

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i really hate this.
enfeebling is something that exists in lots of MMOs and has always been part of the Final Fantasy franchise one way or another as well.
How simplistic and generic do you want mages to be?
Mages in this game now suck than any other MMO.

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Originally Posted by Rukkirii

There aren't any water-based attack spells, but conjurers do control water-based spells. The break down of elements are as follows:
CNJ: Water/Wind/Earth
THM: Fire/Ice/Lightning

Also, there are no paralyze/poison/silence/absorb/slow and there aren't any plans to implement them before the launch of version 2.0. However, as we move forward, if it becomes absolutely necessary to utilize them, we will look into it.

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Yeah, that makes sense. /facepalm

/facepalm2.0

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Originally Posted by Rukkirii

There aren't any water-based attack spells, but conjurers do control water-based spells. The break down of elements are as follows:
CNJ: Water/Wind/Earth
THM: Fire/Ice/Lightning

Also, there are no paralyze/poison/silence/absorb/slow and there aren't any plans to implement them before the launch of version 2.0. However, as we move forward, if it becomes absolutely necessary to utilize them, we will look into it.

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I like it for the simple fact that now we have spells for a new class when one comes out. I was wondering before because CNJ and THM had everything just about, what spells could we get other than haste and wall etc. Now we got spells to use for another class/job and I see no problem with that.

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Originally Posted by Rukkirii

There aren't any water-based attack spells, but conjurers do control water-based spells. The break down of elements are as follows:
CNJ: Water/Wind/Earth
THM: Fire/Ice/Lightning

Also, there are no paralyze/poison/silence/absorb/slow and there aren't any plans to implement them before the launch of version 2.0. However, as we move forward, if it becomes absolutely necessary to utilize them, we will look into it.

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Sounds like a cool plan is in motion! :D
I'm sure the wait will be worth it.

At first I thought that there was an actual issue here.

Then I realized that the it's the usual blown out of proportion forum nonsense.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Well since we're bringing logic into this:

They make up the tiniest of spell count for WHM/BLM path compared to jobs like Time Mage, 'Green Magic', Geomancer, Blue Mage/Magic (the main enfeebler), Red Mage, (insert tons of FF Tactics enfeeblers here).and so on.

So yeah it's always been a part of a caster's grimoire, but conjurer in FFXIV is different from the original conjurer, which was a pseudo summoner with white/black magic attached to it, so in the end we have to wait and see what's planned, since Combos and previous BRs were the way XIV enfeebled enemies, since prior to skill adjustments, they were (and still are) almost useless to cast. Some have it's uses (Absorbs) but honestly? They make such a minute difference at the present time it's a wasted slot.

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lol much like "increases magic casting range"?

i cast far enough, whats the point of casting even further? that slot could have very easily been dedicated to a different ability such as "increases damage output of your next spell"

people can argue all they want that FF____ had these spells and it was ______ this way.
the fact is, an MMO needs enfeebles.
They already said they will only be focusing their next classes on two pet classes NOT arcanist or musketeer.
Summoner and Beast master are planned for the release of 2.0
this means that we are not going to get any enfeebles for more than a year. and it sure as hell doesnt take a month or two to create more classes. this means its going to be well over a year till we see any enfeebling classes such as RDM or DRK

"but our enfeebles were almost useless so why have them?" ....... SOOOO MAKE THEM USEFUL. Bind as an enfeeble would be fantastic for solo mages.

What about crowd control? Bind, gravity, and absorb DEF/or ATT is fantastic if you fixed them to be more effective!

again, SMN and BST has already been confirmed to be the next classes which are a year away. they said they are currently working on the foundations for them and not for any other class. this is a looong time away.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Or, it's simply because the current classes and jobs aren't going to be enfeebling (spell wise), because you know, they could introduce RDM or Time Mage which will handle enfeebling?

Just a thought...

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Dear god I hope not.

Anyone else notice they are taking away the enfeebles when the moogle fight comes out?

I am sure they could just make the mobs resistant as hell, but the moogles are supposed to be class moogles right? So one warrior we could have paralyzed, one mage we could silenced, and etc. I am sure combos could make up for it.

Is removing/rearranging going to be what makes this fight hard?

Enfeebling Job would be the game design brainfart of the decade.

Enfeebling seems to be something that will go along with other actions and spells. In a battle system where you have a limited number of actions, you make those actions do more. Go check out any 4th Ed D&D setup.

Also, I don't get the obsession with having an equal nuking spell for all elements - the community will quickly determine which is the most effective (due to gear selection/materia selection/weakness of preferred leveling enemies/etc) and shun the others, so might as well side step that entire issue and give them much more scope. A thunder spell against an enemy strong against thunder is suddenly much more attractive when it has a chance to stun as well as do some damage.

No Silence? Those enemy mages are gonna give us the mad ouchies!

Thanks for the update Rukkirri!

I'm wondering aloud here for a moment:
I wonder if enemies will still be able to Silence and Slow us or if their abilities will also change to reflect player adjustments.
Or if the three guild mark attacks of War classes will be removed, making Slow more effective against us?

I guess the Marauder resist enfeeble ability and the Conjurer Esuna-equivalent will play a bigger role in things now.

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Originally Posted by Fiosha_Maureiba

No Silence? Those enemy mages are gonna give us the mad ouchies!

Thanks for the update Rukkirri!

I'm wondering aloud here for a moment:
I wonder if enemies will still be able to Silence and Slow us or if their abilities will also change to reflect player adjustments.
Or if the three guild mark attacks of War classes will be removed, making Slow more effective against us?

I guess the Marauder resist enfeeble ability and the Conjurer Esuna-equivalent will play a bigger role in things now.

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i just dont get why they feel no crowd control is needed in this game, especially when their introducing a fight that incorporates several powerful moogles. also especially since we will all just be base classes without our lol"uber job" abilities.
sounds like a sad gimp fest to me. being gimped is not a fun difficulty.

Only thing the addition of an enfeebling class/job that I don't like is party set ups will now likely be:

WHM + PLD/WAR + BRD + Enfeebling + 4DRG ... unless a monster has a particular weakness to magic. THM's likely won't get Ifrit parties now without enfeebles unless their damage output is greatly increased. MNK may be good if their wind attacks aren't magic based but rather physical based. I just hate "ideal setups" in a game. Like in XI right now the odds of you getting an AF3+1 item gathering pt if you're not a WHM/THF/MNK/BLM/BLU are pretty slim, nearly non-existent lol.

I am upset by the decision to give Cjn half the elements. Thaumaturge shuld have them all not Cjn.

It doesn't matter if they have a crappy damaging out, it cools if a Cjn/Whm wants to DD, but why are you going to waste MP on DDing, leave it to the Thm/Blm.

It also makes no sense they get that spell to use all there MP to deal damage to enemies around you. That clearly should be Thm/blm. Benediction should use all your MP to heal.

Situation: White Mage uses benediction, all the mobs charge at them. Black Mage uses all their MP to use that DD spell. Now they hate should be on the black mage, and they have hate. Keeping the Whm alive, and potentially the whole party.

It makes no sense for the Whm to be able to heal all HP, and then use the rest of their mp to do some kind of mega nuke. It's unfair.

I see u cookin up a new mage with enfeebling spells SE

/evilgrin

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Originally Posted by Rukkirii

Also, there are no paralyze/poison/silence/absorb/slow and there aren't any plans to implement them before the launch of version 2.0. However, as we move forward, if it becomes absolutely necessary to utilize them, we will look into it.

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I'm not sure, but it sounds to me like the Development Team has no plans to implement enfeebling magic (to any class or job ... ever) unless the community absolutely forces them to do so.

The elemental split I understand, though. It will just take a little time to deprogram modern Final Fantasy elemental metaphysics from my mind, and go back to more old school metaphysics.

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

I am upset by the decision to give Cjn half the elements. Thaumaturge shuld have them all not Cjn.

It doesn't matter if they have a crappy damaging out, it cools if a Cjn/Whm wants to DD, but why are you going to waste MP on DDing, leave it to the Thm/Blm.

It also makes no sense they get that spell to use all there MP to deal damage to enemies around you. That clearly should be Thm/blm. Benediction should use all your MP to heal.

Situation: White Mage uses benediction, all the mobs charge at them. Black Mage uses all their MP to use that DD spell. Now they hate should be on the black mage, and they have hate. Keeping the Whm alive, and potentially the whole party.

It makes no sense for the Whm to be able to heal all HP, and then use the rest of their mp to do some kind of mega nuke. It's unfair.

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i totally agree with this.

CNJ/WHM get non gimped Buffs, Heals, several nukes AND an ultimate nuke.
THM/BLM literally just gets a couple of nukes. No non gimped heals, buffs or an ultimate nuke.
CNH/WHM looks like the ideal all around mage class while the other does not.

Water keeps you alive!

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Originally Posted by Sorel

I'm not sure, but it sounds to me like the Development Team has no plans to implement enfeebling magic (to any class or job ... ever) unless the community absolutely forces them to do so.

The elemental split I understand, though. It will just take a little time to deprogram modern Final Fantasy elemental metaphysics from my mind, and go back to more old school metaphysics.

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It's more like, if it can be fit into a strategy situation since combos can already enfeeble.