Should Cleric Stance be disabled in party instances?

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Originally Posted by Alisa180

As I said above, I am not saying to remove CS altogether Just disable it in party instances. Healers would still be able to use it outside them.

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"Just disable it in party instances" = leaving a lot of previously proactive, productive healers standing around doing nothing for no reason other than to make players who currently refuse to utilize Cleric Stance feel better and avoid possible criticism (note: I don't support harassing other players for this choice; I don't like or respect it, but I rarely offer any criticism of players I encounter in DF unless they're causing a truly serious problem).

Without Cleric Stance, healers who are skilled, know the content, and are running with average or better parties are minimally challenged and entertained IMO. When you know the choreography of an encounter and have a party that doesn't make frequent and tragic mistakes, there's nothing left to do but contribute supporting DPS between meeting healing requirements. Trying to DPS in higher level content without Cleric Stance is so ineffective that you almost might as well be striking poses instead.

Yes, a more healing intensive meta could change things somewhat, but I maintain that they couldn't do much to increase healing requirements in more casual content without making the healer role too stressful for the "average" player considering that many players in this game are extremely casual and that the healer role carries a fairly big responsibility despite the arguable ease of doing the actual healing.

If they make party instances like raids where majority of time spent is healing, then I'll say "errr ok".

But if all content is how it is now, hell no.

What raids even have you spending most of your time healing? o.o

I'm so glad that the people asking for CS's removal (without Mind being the new damage stat) will not be acknowledged by the devs. Disgusting idea.

I wonder, do the people asking for Cleric's Stance's removal SERIOUSLY want the ENTIRE game to have content that pours out damage so fast that constant healing is REQUIRED to keep even a tank using cooldowns upright?

Either that, or they want us all to sit around with our thumbs up our asses most of the dungeon.

Nearly any Level 60 is a joke (for healers). You have to heal only once every 3 minutes or so. If you even have a skilled tank, you dont even need to heal anything because of their selfheal abilities.

The very last dungeon, which I remembered as kinda fun and challenging as a healer was the Vault. I would like to have at least one Level 60 dungeon, where the tank gets punched in the face so hard, that he needs my attention all of the time.

Honestly, if cleric stance was removed, I would stop playing my healers.
Why ? Because I love the stance dance of course ! It gives you a challenge, especially if your tank is stuffed and know how to use his/hers CD. Just healing in that kind of group would be soooooo boring, it would be like : 1 heal - /dance - 1 heal - /dance....not very exciting ^^"

Plus depending the healer, you may not need to heal at all, most of the time when I SCH I DPS all the time cause eos does the job perfectly fine so you would end up with healer /follow afk.

Personnaly, when I don't heal as long as the healer does is job, I don't really care if he uses CS to DPS or no but as a healer, please don't remove that funny part of my gameplay ! :3 (plus I like to scare tank by letting them go down 10% and then, Benediction ! :3 )

No, absolutely not.

I will quit playing healer if they remove Cleric in instances.

No, I don't like it should be removed from dungeons and trials.

It's an option to use in our tool kit. If you don't want to use it, don't. Don't take it away from every other healer who enjoys it though. Wanting to remove an option because you don't enjoy it seems selfish.

I don't support the harassment that comes to healers that don't use CS, but I think there's much better options to deal with this. Ignoring them, blacklisting and reporting players are all available options. I sometimes run with a SCH who doesn't use CS. I've never once seen anyone even mention anything about him not using it, so I also don't see this as a huge problem plaguing the game.

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

I wonder, do the people asking for Cleric's Stance's removal SERIOUSLY want the ENTIRE game to have content that pours out damage so fast that constant healing is REQUIRED to keep even a tank using cooldowns upright?

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I don't want cleric stance removed, but I KINDA would like that. At least sometime. I have a LOT more fun in The Vault and The Aetherochemical Research Facility. In those dungeons you're healing a decent amount, and squeezing in damage when you can. With some encounters it seems like you're dealing damage most of the time and just squeezing in as little healing as possible.

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Originally Posted by basketofseals

I don't want cleric stance removed, but I KINDA would like that. At least sometime. I have a LOT more fun in The Vault and The Aetherochemical Research Facility. In those dungeons you're healing a decent amount, and squeezing in damage when you can. With some encounters it seems like you're dealing damage most of the time and just squeezing in as little healing as possible.

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I also want more damage going out, i like to heal, i really like the act of healing, it's fun. I don't really like having to dps as a healer, but i like how it's there so i'm doing something. Without cleric stance i'd be AFK /following the tank.

Seriously, the SCH dps rotation is boring as bathwater though. At least on AST/WHM you have an aoe nuke, you can achieve the same effect on SCH but it's sooooooo sloooooow and half the mobs are dead once all your dots are up and spread.

I sometimes just get so burned out on it that i do just stand there and do nothing because it's better than slooooooowwwllyy appppllllyyyyinnng thhhhooooosssseee dottttttssssss and spaaaaaammminnnng brooooooilllll.

I'm finding that a lot of the polarization of opinions around Cleric exists because you have to commit to basically not being able to heal at all while it's up, and it's very possible to mess it up. Then you obviously have your "honest healers" who won't ever touch a damage spell, but I have accepted a long time ago that not everyone wants to play optimally, and I don't have to play with these players either.

I'm once again left wondering where would these discussions be if we lived in a world where Cleric didn't exist and our damage would simply scale off MND instead.

Maybe FF14 should take the whole "healers are DPS with healing spells" one step further In that regard, if only for fluidity's sake.

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Originally Posted by Kerrigen

I'm once again left wondering where would these discussions be if we lived in a world where Cleric didn't exist and our damage would simply scale off MND instead.

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We will have those threads "Should Aero/Stone/Broil/...[include any dps spell here] be disabled in party instances?" instead. The advanced healers who only want to heal will screaming that those skills force them to contribute to dps, while they play healer for healing ONLYYYYY!!!!!!

As much as I love it. I wouldn't mind it. The ability appears to cause more harm than good. I'm looking you people who are harassing the healers that don't want to dps.

If they removed cleric stance then as a tank I will just stop dpsing and spam flash.

If healers dont have to dps, tanks dont. Hell even dps dont have to give it their best either and should just use one button.

I don't see the need. It's an attitude problem, not a mechanics problem. It doesn't need a mechanics solution. I help out with DPS when I can, but there are times when the group is taking too much damage and people will die before I can go back to healing, and there are times when I just need to save my MP. If the party can't handle reality don't play with those people anymore.

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Originally Posted by platorepublic

Yes you can still dps, but just not as much.

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Maybe at low levels, but at 60 no you can't. For all intents and purposes my damage is nonexistent outside cleric stance. Turning cleric off makes normal mobs literally take as long as a FATE boss to kill.

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Originally Posted by Genaxx

If they removed cleric stance then as a tank I will just stop dpsing and spam flash.

If healers dont have to dps, tanks dont. Hell even dps dont have to give it their best either and should just use one button.

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Not even close to the same thing. You don't have to turn off 95% of your HP and armor to do damage. I do have to turn off 95% of my healing to DPS.

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Originally Posted by Seoulstar

As much as I love it. I wouldn't mind it. The ability appears to cause more harm than good. I'm looking you people who are harassing the healers that don't want to dps.

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I've literally never once been harassed for not doing DPS. People need to get new friends if that happens to them.

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

If they make party instances like raids where majority of time spent is healing, then I'll say "errr ok".

But if all content is how it is now, hell no.

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If the majority of the time isn't spent healing the healer should encourage the tank to pull more. The party isn't going as fast as it could.

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Originally Posted by Genaxx

If they removed cleric stance then as a tank I will just stop dpsing and spam flash.

If healers dont have to dps, tanks dont. Hell even dps dont have to give it their best either and should just use one button.

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I mentioned this in another thread, but it is impossible to hold threat just using Flash, especially if you have even two-thirds competant DPS. You quickly go OOM, and if you subsequently keep refusing to use combos to either restore MP, or re-establish threat, the enemies will kill your other party members and cause a wipe. Hence, that is not a good comparison.

Those saying that low healing requirement = tank needs to pull more need to keep a couple of things in mind:

1. Sometimes it is impossible to pull more because of gates or because you are in a boss encounter.

2. A party with poor AoE capability doesn't benefit from massive pulls. If the tank's HP is plummeting and the healer can't get a moment to help AoE while the DPS are struggling to kill the mobs, that's a bad pull.

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Originally Posted by Seoulstar

As much as I love it. I wouldn't mind it. The ability appears to cause more harm than good. I'm looking you people who are harassing the healers that don't want to dps.

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I'm 100% certain there are more people who complain about healers not doing dps than people who complain about healers doing dps.

So I've been reading through this thread, and even though I only heal through content fairly casually (Mostly expert, PotD and stuff), Cleric Stance has become a pivotal part of how I have anything at all to do for like... 80% of a typical EXR, just because there's not enough outgoing damage for healing to be interesting. If Cleric Stance got removed, I'm pretty sure I'd just drop healing altogether out of sheer boredom with the role, unless SE were to substantially increase the difficulty of heal checks to compensate.

But what's more, I'm seeing this really bizarre argument coming out of the removal camp. Some people in this thread are arguing that Cleric Stance is a harassment tool, and should be removed because some people use it to attack others. That's pretty much the equivalent of saying: "Hey I like having 5 fingers but some people use the middle one to attack others, so we should all just dice off our middle fingers in order to make everyone happy."

Assholes will be assholes, the existence of a button isn't going to change the kind of person they are, or the kind of attacks they make. Assholes will find a new excuse to harass you even if Cleric Stance is disabled. The best way to combat them is to ignore them, report them, or just kick them from the instance.

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Originally Posted by Pixelmancer

If the majority of the time isn't spent healing the healer should encourage the tank to pull more. The party isn't going as fast as it could.

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Let's not forget that SE has put blocks every few mobs so big pulls aren't common anymore.

Why can't SE just create interesting mobs or dungeon spots? Pulling more things isn't necessarily fun.

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Originally Posted by Seoulstar

As much as I love it. I wouldn't mind it. The ability appears to cause more harm than good. I'm looking you people who are harassing the healers that don't want to dps.

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We talk about it (probably too much) all over the healer board, but in-game, I've never actually seen anyone get harassed for not DPSing.

Usually, when I'm paired with a co-healer that doesn't DPS, it just makes me think "Well now I have to DPS for the both of us." And fair enough, if you're never entering Cleric Stance, then I shouldn't be worried about healing as you'll always be there for the MT to top him off.

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Originally Posted by DaulBan

I'm 100% certain there are more people who complain about healers not doing dps than people who complain about healers doing dps.

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That's kinda what they said. Most people harass others for not being comfortable with cleric stance and either heckle them until they give up on the role or until they start using it, which causes wipes because they aren't familiar with the tool, which leads to even more harassment.

I think it's that players tend to heckle others simply for being bad, and any of the following behaviors can be considered "bad":

- Chronic over/underhealing
- Being passive during healing downtime
- Using CS incorrectly and causing panic and/or death

I don't think that Cleric Stance itself is the issue when it comes to harassment of healers; it's just one of the tools that players can fail to use or use badly. Criticism drawn by playing poorly will persist regardless of CS or no CS.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

That's kinda what they said. Most people harass others for not being comfortable with cleric stance and either heckle them until they give up on the role or until they start using it, which causes wipes because they aren't familiar with the tool, which leads to even more harassment.

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I actually messed up with the sentence there, which is supposed to read 'I'm 100% certain there are more people who complain about people who complain about healers not DPSing than there are actually people who complain about healers not DPSing'.

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Originally Posted by koroko220

Personally, i think content should scale with group ilvl. The real reason healers dps is that there's just never enough damage going out to heal, save for the hardest content. Dungeon runs will take a bit longer but healers will be healers this way.

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Gods no. Then there is NO point in getting stronger.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

We talk about it (probably too much) all over the healer board, but in-game, I've never actually seen anyone get harassed for not DPSing.
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If anything, it makes me as a healer want tanks to tank better. If they tank better, I heal less and can DPS more. I had a DRK the other day in Gubal HM whom I told could do larger packs, and didn't do a single Dark Arts-Abyssal Drain Combo. At the end I said it would help him out if on the larger packs to spam them when he was doing Blood Price and he said, "Are you saying I suck?". No, I'm saying you can do better.

When I tank as a DRK, I LOVE being with a WHM who is in sync with me and starts doing Holy when my Blood Price is down. Stuff goes down SO dang quickly.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

until they start using it, which causes wipes because they aren't familiar with the tool

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Even more reason to get them used to it, then.
That's like saying it's okay to not call out the DRG for only spamming True Thrust because moving out of AoEs AND using combos is too much for him :rolleyes:
Yes, wipes happen, that's part of learning. Eventually they'll get familiar with using it and the wipes won't happen anymore.

Of course there are more people calling out laziness and unwillingness to learn to use your full toolset than people who complain about their healer contributing in any way possible, duh.

The best thing about being a healer is when I get an undergeared tank who takes hits like a wet tissue, and can't hold hate for shit. And the dps, who are pulling the hate are also moths to a flame with them red aoe indicators. Yep, having to clench my butt hole because my teammates are losing HP faster than I can heal them is always fun. /sarcasm

I know a run is going to be a pain in the ass if I can't put on CS or someone will hit the floor. The good/decent runs would be boring if I didn't have CS. Decent runs are more common than bad runs. I'd rather have only bad runs than be stuck with all good runs without CS.

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Originally Posted by Atoli

Even more reason to get them used to it, then.
That's like saying it's okay to not call out the DRG for only spamming True Thrust because moving out of AoEs AND using combos is too much for him :rolleyes:
Yes, wipes happen, that's part of learning. Eventually they'll get familiar with using it and the wipes won't happen anymore.

Of course there are more people calling out laziness and unwillingness to learn to use your full toolset than people who complain about their healer contributing in any way possible, duh.

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Just let the party know if you screw up due to stance swapping majority will understand. Obviously you don't go practising on some raid run etc.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

The best thing about being a healer is when I get an undergeared tank who takes hits like a wet tissue, and can't hold hate for shit. And the dps, who are pulling the hate are also moths to a flame with them red aoe indicators. Yep, having to clench my butt hole because my teammates are losing HP faster than I can heal them is always fun. /sarcasm

I know a run is going to be a pain in the ass if I can't put on CS or someone will hit the floor. The good/decent runs would be boring if I didn't have CS. Decent runs are more common than bad runs. I'd rather have only bad runs than be stuck with all good runs without CS.

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Agreed. These are the fun runs for a healer. It's infinitely more fun than afk cleric stance dpsing.

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

Just let the party know if you screw up due to stance swapping majority will understand. Obviously you don't go practising on some raid run etc.

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And then get accused of trolling and votekicked faster then the inevitable wipe...

I have the unpopular opinion. I think they should both disable cleric stance in party instances and increase the necessary healing or status clearing mechanics that we have. The only reason we have ability to be supplemental dps is because Square's bad dungeon design isn't giving us enough to do.

I enjoy raising my skill cap on my healer, so no. Cleric stance is fine.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

I have the unpopular opinion. I think they should both disable cleric stance in party instances and increase the necessary healing or status clearing mechanics that we have. The only reason we have ability to be supplemental dps is because Square's bad dungeon design isn't giving us enough to do.

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I don't see why you'd need to disable Cleric Stance if dungeons hurt more.

If you removed Cleric Stance, then it means that healers would still have a lot less to do in old instances (since I somewhat doubt they'd go back and retrofit all the old dungeons to increase the damage mobs dealt). You could still throw out damage spells, yes...but they won't be anywhere close to effective.

Considering that many healers already struggle somewhat with the current healing requirements (without even making an effort at stance-dancing...), and that many tanks continue to neglect or incorrectly use their CDs, significantly increasing damage dealt in duties sounds like a tragic proposition.

For me, the most entertaining encounters reward utilizing the healer's full kit. Standing around spam-healing is little different than spamming damage while regens tick and/or you spam Embrace <mo>.

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Originally Posted by platorepublic

Now if cleric stance is disabled in PvE dungeons/raids (like in PvP), the issue of people complaining you are not dpsing enough will dissipate, possibly...

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I see where you're coming from with that, though I don't think that it will be reduced by enough. Though your damage would be lesser, it would still be something. It shouldn't be disabled, it is part of our toolkit. Though what people need to realize is that within our toolkit there's also a priority list for each job.

Someone made a post that made it pretty clear, each job can deal damage. It's just in what order do they do it. But in the end it seems that the community or maybe a chunk of individuals can't agree on that order and accept that some people, due to numerous reasons (some good..some bad) do not get to the damage dealing priority part of the run.

You shouldn't be getting put down or yelled at due to you not doing the damage. Though on the other hand you should understand if you're standing around and can easily switch over to dealing damage and you're not, you're not performing to max. You've met expectations for your "role" but you're not expectations for job/class.

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Originally Posted by Leigaon

Though your damage would be lesser, it wouldn't still be something.

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Anyone who asks a healer to dps at length without CS doesn't understand how much CS actually gives. I would argue that a healer's dps would be a negative if CS was removed. MP costs for our spells would remain the same and (I have no numbers right now I'm just guesstimating) our damage would be like 1/10th what it is right now. So we would be draining our MP for a small fraction of the damage. We'd be better off sitting on our hands, at least then we wouldn't be spending 800 MP to tickle an enemy.

BTW what you guys gonna do with no cleric stance with 4 healers in POTD?

Sit there and bitch about how they're not ever meant to DPS :'3

They just want to get carried.

Ahem... if you read some of the post, they already gave the solution to that... your enemy just die themselves when encounter a healer/full healer party. It's the holy power!

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Originally Posted by Normalizer

Ahem... if you read some of the post, they already gave the solution to that... your enemy just die themselves when encounter a healer/full healer party. It's the holy power!

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Yes please. Healing is too hard, let me afk murder plz.