I'd rather have blue mage as the new tank anyway it's whole gimmick is getting hit in the face with monster attacks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blood-Aki
We Want SAM... <make it happen>
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10-30-2016, 05:32 AMFinalWolf
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10-30-2016, 06:09 AMLeogunI hate Blue Mages and Blue Magic in general. It's just an MP based Beastmaster (although I love Beastmasters).Quote:
Originally Posted by FinalWolf
Blue Mage's gimmick isn't tanking monster attacks, that's only to learn their magic (another annoying aspect of the job), it's using monster skills at the cost of MP. That's the only real differing factor of the job, it doesn't learn its skills traditionally but instead by being hit by them. -
10-30-2016, 08:29 AMShippuuThe vast majority of Final Fantasy Samurai have counterattack abilities requiring them to be hit first. They also share the armor type of tanks in FFXIV, which blue mages generally do not.Quote:
Originally Posted by FinalWolf
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10-30-2016, 08:54 AMFinalWolfI want samurai to be a tank as well but I am open for blue mage to be the new tank too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shippuu
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10-30-2016, 10:19 AMShippuuIt's definitely a viable option. But in my opinion it shouldn't come before SAM gets implemented. SAM is generally more requested and the more likely addition. On top of that, 2 of the 3 current tanks have a magic focus anyways, it'd be nice to get another that is more about martial prowess than magic.Quote:
Originally Posted by FinalWolf
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10-30-2016, 10:38 AMDualgunner3 of the 3 tanks have slashing weapons. 2 of the 3 tanks use swords. It'd be nice to have a tank that didn't have a slashing weapon/sword lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Shippuu
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10-30-2016, 10:46 AMFinalWolfLiterally nothing is stopping them from releasing red mage and samurai at the same time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dualgunner
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10-30-2016, 01:53 PMShippuuAnd there's nothing wrong with all of them having slashing weapons forever. The proposed jobs people are asking to be tanks all traditionally use swords of some form or another, red mage, samurai, blue mage, all sword wielders. Other tank-like jobs in Final fantasy games also wield swords.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dualgunner
Making tanks share a common damage type (slashing) offers plenty of benefits such as allowing them to comfortably fit in any party composition. Introducing a tank job with a contrasting damage type offers none of the compatibility or benefits. -
10-30-2016, 02:20 PMErikMynhierI just want to have a "gavel" and be a "Judge". I hope for the day Cid "finds" Nero's armor and make us another job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shippuu
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/...20130818202108 -
10-30-2016, 02:35 PMShippuuNot that I wouldn't mind a judgemaster themed tank, it's a bit hard to swallow the notion of adventurer's running around masquerading as the people who are subjugating the known world.Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikMynhier
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10-30-2016, 04:25 PMAlacranThey wont see how ridiculous a two handed Katana wielding Samurai will look behind the enemy. Welcome to 4.0, 24 man raids...Quote:
Originally Posted by Shippuu
http://i.imgur.com/p2D6Jap.png?1 -
10-30-2016, 04:42 PMJunseiKei
That Zenos guy already looks a tad like a Garlean samurai....
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10-31-2016, 01:44 AMClaire_PendragonThats assuming SAM attacks enemies from behind as DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alacran
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10-31-2016, 01:49 AMBlood-Aki
We also need to see how SAM will work in this game, so far every job they have introduced, that wasn't just a straightfoward style of role, like how ffXI and FFXIV whm do the same things, ( i am actually hoping for a Cure 4!) we don't know how sam will work. sch in this game turned out completely different from the 11 one. so this is a wait and see moment.
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10-31-2016, 02:27 AMFallenWingsAttacking from the front then? Time to get booty slammed by cleaves and additional frontal cone AoEs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon
Remove cleaves to cater to SAM? Positioning for tanks getting nerfed to make gameplay more braindead?
Be a DPS that is hated by healers next to BLM? Give it virtually no useful utility but high DPS for this higher risk gameplay? NIN+DRG meta prolonged?
Let's give our infamously horrible DF pugs a class that needs to dodge frequent untelegraphed cleaves when they already have trouble dodging telegraphed AoEs with huge orange markers.
Have skills that mitigate damage? Lose some DPS skill slots and effectively turn it into... *gasp* a tank? But worse because a real tank doesn't need to hit the front to deal it's full damage?
Have no positionals? Release patch NIN?
inb4 SwordMage with melee range cast bar mechanics *shudder*
I truly hope we aren't suggesting they become some kind of front positional DPS because... That is what Tanks are.
I guess Cover would have some miniscule use here. A treat to the PLDs? l0l
WHM: Stop getting cleaved!
SAM: But I need to for my DPS :(
WHM: I'm running out of mana!
BLM: I need a heal too :(
DRG: Raise please :D
WHM has gone offline. -
10-31-2016, 02:40 AMErikMynhierWell the same could be said of Machinist. By RP logic, any Ala Mhigan should have PTSD at the sight of any firearm attached to a weapon or not, as gun wielders drove them out. People still manage to work around it as there are a large number of Garlean-based guns strapped on to the backs of highlanders and no one bats an eye. Fortunately SE tends to make things reasonable lore-wise for RPers like you and me. And when they can't they do it anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shippuu
Honestly I could see this as a thing. New free government of Ala Mhigo, they want to reestablish order with the people that have lived maybe happily under Imperial rule for 20+ years, jaded refugee returners, newcomers and adventurers. They get Cid to cobble some nonsense out of the 20+ years of Garlean junk laying about and make sort of a police force open as members and as volunteers (see: Sultansworn/Free Paladin). You could run the whole questline based off of Judge Dread... would be pretty epic I think. -
10-31-2016, 10:00 AMShippuuYes because this is so much better...Quote:
Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon
http://i.imgur.com/TGHg4jW.png
I'd just love to be the healer for that, as the entire alliance's dps go down on the first cleave from the boss. That sure does sound fun!
That's not even touching problems like mechanics that target DPS with ground target attacks now getting placed on top of your tanks, requiring tanks to move bosses more often when a lot of fights require the tanks to keep the boss in a specific spot. And other incredibly numerous other problems that come with a DPS job designed to attack from the front, all for what? When you could just make that job a tank.
Why would Ala Mhigans have PTSD from firearms? They employed them themselves, with cannons and likely other forms of firearms. They were the strongest military force on Eorzea before the Empire invaded, likely one of the most advanced as well, having repelled numerous invasions from the north. Blackpowder weapons have been around for a long time.Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikMynhier
Machinists are quite different as well, they are not decisively Garlean in nature, rifles have been around Eorzea for a long time, and the key component of Machinists is the aetherotransformer, which was invented by Stephanivien and certainly isn't Garlean tech as it converts an individual's aether into lightning aspected aether to power the weapon and other devices. Garlean tech is not fueled by individual's aether but ceruleum since pureblood Garleans have very little aptitude for manipulating aether (their own nor ambient). Even then, Machinists don't exist without a certain level of scrutiny from others.
But now we're talking about post 4.0 stuff which then makes the concept a bit more possible as we push the Empire back, their power diminishing etc. But that's another 2-3 years out now if we're talking 5.0 stuff. It doesn't make quite so much sense to be implemented in 4.0, where we will be actively fighting to just retake Ala Mhigo likely during the entire 4.0-4.1 storyline. Cid being the person to throw it together seems off though, I doubt he'd have any reason to do such a thing and as with every Job trainer the actual trainer is not an important figure to the game's overall story so it's highly unlikely Cid nor Nero would have anything at all to do with it.Quote:
Honestly I could see this as a thing. New free government of Ala Mhigo, they want to reestablish order with the people that have lived maybe happily under Imperial rule for 20+ years, jaded refugee returners, newcomers and adventurers. They get Cid to cobble some nonsense out of the 20+ years of Garlean junk laying about and make sort of a police force open as members and as volunteers (see: Sultansworn/Free Paladin). You could run the whole questline based off of Judge Dread... would be pretty epic I think.
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10-31-2016, 10:17 AMErikMynhierI can see your point. But a Warhammer job would be epic though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shippuu
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10-31-2016, 10:43 AMGravtonOf course classic jobs are going to get priority. They need to sell the expansion. This expansion isn't just for current players or even players that follow every FF game. Most people know what a samurai is, it sounds cool and I'd check it out if I wasn't already playing. It's designed to attract old and new customers. Releasing something like a spell dancer doesn't inspire an "OMG! I must play it!" Just like when WoW released pandas did not convince me to go back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcellus_Cassius
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10-31-2016, 01:09 PMShippuuDefinitely. I have no doubt we will see one eventually unless they really do want to rehash every single type of sword they possibly can. With additions like SAM and RDM (if SAM is being added in 4.0 and not saved until later), that leaves few major recurring Final Fantasy jobs left and so we will undoubtedly see even more either unique new jobs, or rarer Final Fantasy jobs that might get whole new identities. A Judgemaster themed tank is definitely one of the more likely options as it's not particularly tied to a weapon type in past games and as such offers more freedom when compared to some classic FF staples. Only time will tell at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikMynhier
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11-01-2016, 01:37 AMKatana190A War-hammer tank would be so amazing! I can see it happening when we go to Garlemald though, with the addition of the Gunsword job as well. Idk \o/Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikMynhier
On topic though, I'm still really holding out for SAM to use a set of Daishō and not Great Katana... Funnily enough, in the Lorebook it states that the DRK Law Greatsword is in fact a Great Katana! So I think a Daishō is more believable then before, especially after seeing Zenos using multiple katana's in his artwork, and the best guess is he will use recycled Samurai skills.
Here is part of the Quote from the Lorebook!
"Kumokirimaru
This Great Katana was forged by a Doman artisan at the behest of Rowena's House of Splendors."
Now I know the Law gear was Doman styled, and DRK's using Great swords, it would obviously be a Great Katana. But do we really want Great Katana's? Idm either way as long as SAM is introduced but I'm really holding out for a set of Daishō! -
11-01-2016, 01:46 AMLyshell
I'm so salty about Samurai, from ffxi, that I always wish it never comes out. But people seem to want it. Ugh, so it's likely to happen. And I do think it will come out with storm blood due to the style of one of our antagonist showed at fan fest. He looked very SAMesque so who knows.
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11-01-2016, 01:51 AMLeogunCurious, what did you not like about Sam from 11? I rarely ever hear from Sam players that disliked the job. I was a monk main so I actually liked monk in that game but dislike it in this one (granted I don't have it leveled past 40 yet) primarily because it lacks the unique defensive measures from games of past, the counter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyshell
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11-01-2016, 09:55 AMLyshellI hate how it got the preferential treatment in XI. Every update would be a new buff or modification to boost SAM and other jobs like MNK (my job) lol would get nothing. Out of all the jobs SAM would get the most equipment, could wear heavy and light, and would get a variety of good weapons. It just pissed me off so SAM can stay dead! lol That's why I was salty. I hate SAM! lol But whatever it will probably be in storm blood :PQuote:
Curious, what did you not like about Sam from 11? I rarely ever hear from Sam players that disliked the job. I was a monk main so I actually liked monk in that game but dislike it in this one (granted I don't have it leveled past 40 yet) primarily because it lacks the unique defensive measures from games of past, the counter.
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11-01-2016, 10:08 AMBlood-AkiIs that all? Have you seen how SMN started out there? Watered down WHM anyone? and don't get me started on how nin was "supposed" to be played, The job balance was out of control in that game in the early days.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyshell
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11-01-2016, 02:48 PMClaire_PendragonYou assume they have to sit there and take cleaves, nor have a means to deal with them.Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenWings
No, why would they do that?Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenWings
Again, you're jumping to conclusions. Who says it has to have high DPS only? (Not that its bad for a DPS, nor was I suggesting what their support utility would be.)Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenWings
Very VERY few attacks are like this, and of course, that doesnt mean there isnt a work around for that. I can go into detail at the bottom. Plus a players lack of skill doesnt mean we should never require them to do anything that requires effort.Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenWings
Skills to mitigate dmg, obviously, all DPS have something, and I'd be fine with having higher defense like DRG, with higher HP/mitigation effectiveness.Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenWings
I dont see why they lose DPS skill slots. Nor do I see a problem with a DPS having near tank like playstyle/abilities, w/o the actual ability to hold hate.Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenWings
What you said is like saying "A PLD is a WHM, but worse, because a real healer doesnt run out of MP with just 3 cure casts (Clemency) to heal?" Sometimes there is variation, and finding ways to use that variation brings new playstyles and less copy/paste classes. I love DEFENSIVE play styles. I find offensive playstyles boring. I find mitigation more interesting that an attack buff. So if you balance a DPS to mitigate dmg to keep itself at its best, then I'd love to play such a class. Maybe YOU wouldnt, and that is fine, not every class is meant to be the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenWings
Would never suggest that, If anything the idea is to not stand in front of the boss when you DONT have positionals (and using a buff to remove positionals occasionally. Though a penalty to attacking from behind would most likely remain)Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenWings
Who on earth would ever suggest this, w/o some sort of "stacks" to make spells intant cast, to encourage melee skills before spells?Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenWings
You're half right, but not quite.Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenWings
Honestly the most clever thing you've mentioned so far, as this might be a way to stack mitigation and make this class too broken, which is the only part I'd agree to rethink the design. (Nor have I already thought of a way ahead of time to deal with this.)Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenWings
Solution, Dodge more.Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenWings
If you are the creator, there is ALWAYS a way to make unique builds work. Stop trying to suggest something couldnt ever possibly work, just because you cant think of how.
1,2,3 combo, 3rd combo, more dmg from the front +10 potency. you can deal w/o doing it. (Looking at Dark Arts as an example, where you have the ability to use the MP for more potency, but you dont always do it. Sometimes you need to space it out, and wait till you have the MP for it. In this case, the Mitigation for it.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Shippuu
all 3, hit from behind effect: lose a stack of honor.
Honor: raise accuracy from the front and +1% DPS per stack (lets say 3 cap for now)
side ability: base dmg and gain 1 stack of honor.
In short, stay on the side of the enemy, move to the front for a single attack.
Mitigate it before you walk in front of them, such as an utsusemi like ability, move back.
Stronger mitigation, for times you plan to stay in front of them longer, to lower enmity, but raise mitgation.
Is it really that hard to imagine work arounds for these issues?
(I also intended more -enmity in the class, liek an "anti tank" Stance, to prevent them acting as OTs or something too broken. Along with weaker AoE on par with NIN or something. Which requires more support on their part, etc, so on, and so forth.) -
11-01-2016, 02:54 PMZenshoheh, funny you put it that way because I was MNK main on XI too, and all I ever wanted was some JSE. But I had SAM leveled just cuz it could wear the same shit, but in dynamis, nobody had SAM, so by default they game me a full set of SAM AF2 armor even though I didn't want it, cuz I wanted MNK AF2 set more. I also tanked on SAM in the level 60's something the job was designed to do, but turned dps, and it's funny how NIN was designed dps, and ppl turned it into a tank, lol how broke was that shit? =PQuote:
Originally Posted by Lyshell
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11-01-2016, 10:57 PMFallenWingsThe issue is the clear break of balance when you attempt to make this design choice. What I listed in response is not only the general desires of the DPS sides and its reprecussions, but what the possible issues that may arise and how it could tilt the balance of the game for the worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon
If you make the positionals only a difference of 10, why even bother? The reward for executing it would be so abysmal, why even implement it. Just for the flavour of "Ooooh we can hit the front"? Pointless. The cost of properly executing an action needs to be of a sufficient reward to incentivize the effort. But the punishment of not executing it needs not be as steep as pre-buffed Heavy Thrust.
Yes, all DPS have something to mitigate the damage, but not TANK levels of damage in which you need the TANK level defensive CDs, especially for DPS levels of HP.
When you give a DPS class Tank levels of mitigation, you give it an edge in cutting edge progression where it can survive AoE's the others can not which is again, imbalance. (See DRG T13 or MNK Dragon Kick pre 3.0)
So if it has few and far between front positionals, and multiple ways to effectively null it, it really is just a positionless Melee with an unnecessary mechanic to juggle akin to BotD.
And if it doesn't even need to front positional, why suggest it? Negating front positioning essentially breaks the idea of it even being front positional.
(Protip: You cannot "live" without Dark Arts because of it's massive effect on all the skills it effects.)
Putting forward ideas of front positionals and it's niche is one thing, vaguely hinting at it without the proper context of balance is another. -
11-01-2016, 11:02 PMBlazinhart
I just want one job: Dancer!!! And I want it as a Healer Role (never understood why people are so crazy about Samurais)
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11-02-2016, 01:29 AMLyshellOh no I was pissed about SMN, because I played SMN as well, that was only related to why I hated SAM in FFXI, there were so many reasons I was pissed they would buff all other jobs and not do anything for SMN or DNC or any of the other unique jobs they would introduce and just not buff them to make them useable. But whatever this about SAM I'll save my ffxi angry stories for whatever thread that would be lol. For now I'd take SAM but I swear if they do the same thing they did to it FFXI I would protest and quit! lolQuote:
Is that all? Have you seen how SMN started out there? Watered down WHM anyone? and don't get me started on how nin was "supposed" to be played, The job balance was out of control in that game in the early days.
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11-02-2016, 03:36 AMClaire_PendragonWhile I agree with that sentiment, it's not too much different from when you implement a new tank/healer/dps, and you want it to be "different" from the other classes of the same role, w/o just being a copy paste. There's always a way to balance it. (Granted older content will always be an issue, as they arent always built with new mechanics/classes in mind)Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenWings
While I absolutely agree, this example was exaggerated for 1 of 2 possible ideas. (The DA comparison being a different idea, not nessisarily meant to go with this one.) I'd have to fully make the class, then actually play it out, to see how much I could actually push, forcing frontal positionals, but also allowing a few combos through, where you dont hit your positional. (Just threw out the number for a generalized/simplified concept)Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenWings
Those DPS also have sustained mitigation, and tanks even greater sustained mitigation. I was more so thinking "burst" mitigation, along the lines of Sheltron, with a single hit being taken in mind, and then wearing off, and having to wait till its back up. If issues arose, a balance of damage taken+ like blood for blood comes to mind as well, after the initial mitigation, you have increased dmg taken. Though ppl tend to mess this up, proper understanding of the fight is required, like a BLM prepping laylines.Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenWings
DRGs were able to survive, but they needed VIT accessories/materia in coils. (The Devs clarified they beat all content with all combinations of PT builds, excluding overlapping classes.) This of course doesnt mean ppl wont have preference of classes. As for "Using its mitigation to avoid raid wide AoEs" this would come at the cost of its DPS if its mitigation was meant for avoiding frontal cones/AoEs. Though the survivability makes up for a possible dead DPS. Either way, this difference is roughly on par with a PLDs invincible, and a DRKs Living Dead. One is clearly better, but that doesnt make DRK useless/broken.Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenWings
While I was only specifying a means to make frontals possible, I can derail a second to say if I were in charge of making the class, I'd add another mechanic to the class, similar to how NIN has Mudras on top of its limited positionals. But I dont disagree with DPS have too much "busy work" just to make them convoluted.Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenWings
I didnt mean negate it every time, just an occasional negate, like BLM having swift cast to negate cast times occasionally for emergencies.Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenWings
(Honestly I was pretty much basing SAM on BLM, but as a melee, copying how BLMs have to soak hits sometimes while casting, and a melee doesnt get planted still for casts, so they had to soak a hit in another way. But frontals requires taking way more dmg than a BLM does, so stronger burst mitigation was needed, with less sustainability.)
Correct, the DA example being a secondary concept, where you can only mitigate every "other" cone or so. Or something along those lines. But of course you'd get more reward out of doing it, making you want to attempt it. (May even attempt it w/o the mitigation, if u know there's no frontal comming)Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenWings
While I agree, I'm saying it's not automatically incorrect. If I were to suggest something with detail, that cant work, such as "Make a class that never takes dmg, and has no down sides, while able to solo 24 man content" then obviously its impossible.Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenWings
I agree I was vague, but I didn't post anything to contradict its design (That Im aware of, other than the question of how would "Cover" effect this class?) which is why I say it shouldnt be automatically considered impossible. (Though you just clarified you were just pointing out possibilities, rather than saying its impossible.) -
11-02-2016, 03:43 AMKasathar
SAM is life, SAM <3 4ever.
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11-02-2016, 12:45 PMSlirith
TBH I don't want samurai as a dps as it'll just be another combo based melee dps.
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11-02-2016, 02:12 PMTaranTatsuuchiWell, they could do like how Bard/Machinist became Bow/Gun Mages...Quote:
Originally Posted by Slirith
And make it a Sword Mage... :3 -
11-03-2016, 07:58 AMDualgunnerThe only non-combo based classes in this game are healers. Arguably the bow mage as well, but gun mage has combos, they just are RNG combos.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slirith