What's fun for you, might not be fun for other people. Bag on them all you want, but for some people collecting their weekly raid loot from powerful bosses IS what's fun, and to dismiss them as potential customers because it doesn't fit your vision of what an MMO is all about is ignorant and petty.Quote:
Originally Posted by TarynH
Main Scenario Restriction Bloodstorm - Very Very Bad idea.
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10-17-2016, 12:12 PMloreleidiangelo
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10-17-2016, 12:23 PMBourne_EndeavorThey aren't. From a business perspective though, MMOs need a constant flux of new players to grow. If the game plateaus or subs decline, then Square loses money. Wanna bet what they do to accommodate those loses? Why does it matter so much how other people play the game? Say the jump potion existed now. How are you directly impacted if someone else skipped A Real Reborn? Better yet, what difference is it if instead of paying for this potion, they skip every cutscene and/or dialogue-- effectively skipping the story anyway, albeit at a much slower pace?Quote:
Originally Posted by bass9020
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10-17-2016, 12:34 PMTarynHCould you please solo The Chrysalis, or Steps of Faith for them? Also, could you solo every single HW dungeon, and primal fight for them? Also, while you're at it, could you solo all of Alexander so they can do Savage mode with their friends?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor
You're trying to make leveling from 1-60 proportionate with skipping MSQ/content. These are two separate issues. One is grinding a job to 60. The other is playing through hours of content. What the OP is asking for, and you are apparently agreeing with, is putting the two together, and just skipping everything. So "new" players can walk into Ala Mhigo and pick up the new story, alongside people who have painstakingly gone through said "old content." Who are you to determine "who cares" about that? -
10-17-2016, 12:40 PMTarynHI'm saying there is more to the game than collecting weekly loot. The so-called "new players" that want to skip to this are going to get bored just as easily as going through that mountain of content. It's a tired argument. And though it may sound "petty" the "new players" trope is almost as old as the "old content" trope. I don't mind them being potential customers at all, but they can play through the same content as everyone else to get to what they enjoy. It's only fair. Also, FFXIV is an MMORPG, not just an MMO. Huge difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo
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10-17-2016, 12:43 PMFawkesIt's not that they need to be treated differently, it's that the game needs to adjust to not become bloated. As the level cap increases and more story is added, that's more work for someone starting out to get caught up. Like, when the game launched and we leveled up to 50 and finished ARR's story, getting to that point was worth a lot more then than it is now. But it's still the exact same amount of work to do now, it just doesn't get you to endgame anymore. Ideally the devs would keep the amount of work required to go from zero to endgame roughly the same over time, otherwise the game becomes harder for new players than it was for us.Quote:
Originally Posted by bass9020
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10-17-2016, 12:44 PMNaunetRoulettes would still exist. The story would still exist. But people would be able to access the content they want WHEN they want.Quote:
Originally Posted by Theodric
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10-17-2016, 12:51 PMPowe
Wait quick question, if jump potions start like way down the line, like 3years from now, will it level one class to the current level or will it level all classes and jobs? If it's the former then get use to seeing gladiators in a lv80 dungeon with barely passable gear <.<
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10-17-2016, 12:57 PMTarynHI want to skip the whole crafting/gathering part of the game, because I only enjoy end-game crafting. Could I just have my BiS crafting gear done for me when I log in tomorrow? After all, it is the content I want, and tomorrow is when I want it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Naunet
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10-17-2016, 01:02 PMBourne_EndeavorUnsynced, might actually be able to solo Chrysalis nowadays. At most, you'd need 2-3 people. Steps may still need 5-6 people. Early HW dungeons? Warrior would solo them. Primals have been solo'd already. At least those that don't have instant death mechanics if only one player is in the instanced. Regardless, even with a party, all of the content you listed is utterly laughable now.Quote:
Originally Posted by TarynH
No, they aren't. Leveling is irrelevant. It's gated content people take umbrage with. Who are you to determine it still does? You're essentially saying "you have to do all this content because I think you should." Why does your opinion matter more than theirs? Because you feel the spirit of the game is ruined if someone else doesn't play through it exactly as you believe it should be played. I'll ask you the same I did Bass. If someone skips literally every cutscene and has friends speed them through all the dungeons so they could be ready for Stormblood. How is that any different than if they just paid for a jump potion? They didn't experience any of it. They skipped everything. It only took them two weeks instead of two minutes. Likewise, if they leveled through fates. They didn't learn their job. They grinded it out in a couple days pressing a few buttons.
Now you're being willfully obtuse. Skipping directly to endgame content and being awarded the best gear isn't synonymous with wanting to skip over 300 quests so they can play the expansion.Quote:
Originally Posted by TarynH
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10-17-2016, 01:12 PMsilentwindfr
at this point, why allows people to skip too? your opinion is not as important than the one you point out. we did give a lot of point valid that you prefer ignore. most of the people complaining about the story to be done for what? join the one that do end game? maybe they need first to be new player instead to want everything right now without effort. because skip this content is this.... it's wanting everything now, without spend any effort, because for them this content is not relevant becausenot the end game.... what is the worst type of way to see a game. and honestly if they only want the end game.... i'm not sure i want to have to deal with this sort of person.
they want a way to not play the game because most of it for them have no interest since not the end game.
*sighs* but every time with the expansion we do have this sort of thread that pop out. like the one about open world content. you know i'm kinda conflicted about jobs, let look at the ast or drk, compared to the other jobs of the same role are harder to play and will recquire to understand more the game. then make them gated later in the game don't feel that wrong. and honestly if they only want to play one jobs.... is not world of warcraft, it's highly adviced to play multiple jobs, that will give you a better understanding of your role. but i guess that pointless debate. you will not accept our refusal and we will not accept this request.
ps: a new player must focus on try to understand the game and the world he is inside it. if he come for only raiding.... i feel he do miss 90% of the game and need to rethink him way to play the game. -
10-17-2016, 01:13 PMBourne_EndeavorIf it works the way it does for the Chinese/Korean versions, each job essentially has its own potion. So you'll only have that one job jumped ahead to 50, be gifted some gil (roughly equivalent to what you'd have earned doing the story), some poetics and I think the gear was either Ironworks or one tier below. All of the MSQ will be listed as complete as will your selected job's questline, but you will not be awarded any achievements for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Powe
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10-17-2016, 01:16 PMsilentwindfrhonestly this is a big NO! we are into a sub game, the shop is already special... but this is clearly pay to win and must'nt come to the game! the shop is for cosmetic only this sort of stuff is not cosmetic anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor
honestly we are not into a free to play game, yes chinese and korean like this sort of stuff, but that don't means is a good thing!
you pay for get 50 level and skip story, it's the main definition of pay to win. you pay and you win.... people don't stop to try to change this definition adding new stuff like pay to accelerate. but pay to win is pay for get an advantage over the other, the moment you pay for pass content, that other will need to do it give you an advantage over this people. pay to win.Quote:
Originally Posted by alimdia
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10-17-2016, 01:18 PMZarcoftAgain some ppl like collect that weekly loot, and also MMO is a acronym for MMORPG they are the same thing. Should the MSQ from the older content be trimmed? Yes I believe so to get rid of some of the fluff, but just because you brought the game because you were enticed by a new expansion means you get the skip ahead? If that's the case then I want reparations for all the time I spent doing all the old world content.Quote:
Originally Posted by TarynH
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10-17-2016, 01:34 PMalimdiaThat's not pay to win, more pay to win would be rented retainers, you can make millions off 1 hour ventures.Quote:
Originally Posted by silentwindfr
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10-17-2016, 01:39 PMSandpark
I am trying to see this from the other side even though I am against instant level potions.
There was a recent unofficial census that said most players do not reach level cap. I do not know if that was in reference to ARR or both. If most new players don't even hit the level cap now and finish the story then Stormblood would just add more gasoline to the fire.
Firstly if the above is true, why is that?
Is it due to the amount of time to reach level cap and story completion?
Is it due to the difficulty of reaching the level cap and story completion?
Is it due to the way gating and rites of passage move the goalpost further and further?
Or is it due to some other thing I am not seeing? Like, say perhaps the ilvl tiers becoming irrelevant the further you advance into elder game. I am just throwing out estimates on HW because I do not know when the last patch cycle ilvl will be when Stormblood releases.
http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Dungeons
The end ilevel cap for ARR:- Dungeons is ilvl 130.
- Raids is ilvl 90.
- ARR content is built around Poetics.
The possible end ilevel cap for HW:- Dungeons could be ilvl 210-270.
- Raids could be 245-300.
- HW content will end with Scriptures or some preceding tomestone that will be the finalized tomestone.
The possible end ilvl cap for Stormblood:- Dungeons could be 310-360.
- Raids could be 345-400.
- SB content will end with god knows what tomestone that will be the finalized tomestone.
My question to the community is:
Is ARR content still relevant to you when you are ilvl 300+? Is there any reason besides glamours to constantly revisit ARR content?
True endgame is where the new content, the most recent areas will most likely be built towards.
Regardless of our opinions on this subject, I am going to guess and say how fast a new player progresses will not affect veterans in any way other than newer players not going through all the training leading up this point or when leveling alts. If the newer players can bypass ARR and HW, why would they play in older areas besides a possible love for leveling alts in themselves.
With the common perception that the best and coolest stuff comes as you get further into the game. That sets a goal or obstacle for someone coming fresh into the game. The obstacle being ARR and HW. For this reason, I think the instant level potion is coming regardless of how it affects the community or not.
The only alternatives are faster experience leveling and progressing or level synching the whole game and removing the rites of passages advancing the story.
If rites of passages are removed from XIV then in my opinion, this is no longer an FF mmo which is something XI and this mmo has been praised for. I'd rather newer players have an instant skip potion than my pursuit of becoming stronger be stymied by world battle synching or removal of rites of passage. So against the instant win potion or not, maybe it's better they get that option.
Boost the new adventurer rather than limit the old adventurer. I quit Elder Scrolls Online due to One Tamriel(World battle scaling) and the Champion Point restriction(functions like ilvl cap). -
10-17-2016, 01:40 PMNaunetLol right. Because that's totally what people have been asking for. (It's not.)Quote:
Originally Posted by TarynH
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10-17-2016, 01:46 PMTarynHIn context, he did say "people would be able to access the content they want WHEN they want." Not everyone wants the same things. ;) It's just a matter of where you're willing to draw the line with this "jumping potion."Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor
Also, you have a strange concept of "solo." :P
Leveling might very well be irrelevant. But it is not the same as content. You can level to 60 without doing any quests or story. What you're asking for is a skip button on 90% of the game. Just try to picture the abuse that could cause on the game. RMT, day 1, farming Stormblood areas. Trolls, day 1, monopolizing content. You'll have an entirely new breed of people that will not care about the integrity or balance of the game, let alone the "spirit of the game," which I never mentioned. And why should they? It's not like they played the game to get there. -
10-17-2016, 01:48 PMTarynHMight as well be. People have different tastes. Some want to skip the game and do raids. Some want to ignore the story and roleplay. I want to be a super crafter, but why should any of us have to work for it? :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Naunet
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10-17-2016, 02:05 PMBourne_EndeavorDoesn't matter. That isn't what is being discussed. You are attempting to equate the two when they aren't the same thing nor have I supported that aspect.Quote:
Originally Posted by TarynH
I was being facetious. You didn't answer my question though. Even if I do occasionally bring someone else. If we duo/trio a friend or two through all the content, how does that differ from them just buying a jump potion? They haven't experienced anything. They're clicking through the story and having level 60-70s murder everything for them.
RMTs will always spam regardless of what barriers faced. Have you ever looked up their sites? A jump potion is more likely to hurt them. Some charge upwards of nearly $200 just to level you from 1 to 60. If Square sells a jump potion for $35. Who's going to pay RMTs to do all that leveling and/or content for them, especially since going through Square doesn't risk their account? Trolls like cheap laughs. Having to buy a full expansion plus the base game and previous expansion, then a likely expensive level skip potion just to potentially harass someone isn't exactly cheap. This doom and gloom scenario you keep insisting just wouldn't happen.
Except a jump potion doesn't make you a "super" raider either. You get crappy gear and less gil than you likely would have gotten playing through the game normally. It just skips you ahead to current content. So a more apt comparison with crafting would be jumping you to level 50 and gifting you the ilvl 55 set. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by TarynH
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10-17-2016, 02:08 PMLexiaFor gathering it kind of is, cause there are nodes that are in HW only areas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Naunet
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10-17-2016, 02:19 PMTarynHBut isn't it? You're asking for a potion that would skip not just old content, but also any relevant content to date. Sure, they would have to gear up, but that's the content they want, right? They want to skip to those end-game gearing-up raids? Well, what if I only wanted to craft end-game gear? I shouldn't have to craft my own gear to do that. That's a lot of effort. And if someone skipping to 50 gets ironworks, I would like to skip to 60 and have ironworks crafting gear. Also, any gil I "would've made" having crafted other lower recipes. *wink wink*Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor
Also, what happens when they skip to 60? Do they get enough gil to buy new gear in Stormblood areas? Do they get awarded scripture gear? What special "reward" do they get for buying that potion from the shop? I mean, after all, they are entitled to it right? -
10-17-2016, 03:31 PMBourne_EndeavorSigh. For the last time, no. They skip to Stormblood not endgame content. The potion implemented in the Chinese/Korean version puts you nowhere near ready for Alexander. You also still have to do Heavensward. It merely skips you through A Realm Reborn because none of that content is relevant anymore. You can attempt to spin this will false equivalents all you fancy. That doesn't make it so. The intent of the potion is so you aren't gated by the MSQ, hence only gifting you the bare minimum at level 50. What you're saying is it'll gift you actual relevant gear with your crafter example. That doesn't happen even in the Chinese version.Quote:
Originally Posted by TarynH
Whatever the near equivalent to Ironworks (battle) gear is. In essence, it'll be junk gear you replace almost immediately. And this has nothing to do with entitlement. It's simply business. The larger the content bloat you put in front of new players, the less likely they are to keep playing or start to begin with. This will inevitably lead to a sub decline as less new players means no one will replace veterans who unsub. That lack of revenue isn't something Square Enix will just eat. They'll pass it back onto us by adding more cash shop exclusive content. A jump potion will happen. It's simply a matter of when. -
10-17-2016, 03:38 PMKhalithar
I didn't watch the fanfest stream, but I seem to recall some time ago they said you wouldn't need to complete the MSQ in HW to get to the next expansion. Did they say they changed their minds during the fanfest?
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10-17-2016, 03:42 PMChiramuI wonder how they can do that when you meet the Stormblood girl in 3.5.Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalithar
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10-17-2016, 04:03 PMTarynHMy crafter example may seem delusional at first glance, but in retrospect it's really not that far off. When you start inviting cash-bought elements into a game to skip ahead, it starts a trend. You can try to claim that it doesn't, but look at other games that implemented the same. Some games are even destroyed by it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor
I personally don't want this game to turn into something where you can run and get your CC to skip content. Despite how "irrelevant" you determine that content to be. (By the way, all content is relevant, if there is a purpose for it being there. Story is relevant to a story-driven game. The content required is relevant to the story.)
But there are compromises. Instead of a cash shop item, or a pay-to-win item, you could resolve it in-game. They could, as others suggested, take most of the fetch quest bloat out of the MSQ. Anything that doesn't drive the main story. They could also give the player a choice once they reach a certain part in the MSQ. They could be asked to continue, or to skip ahead.
But honestly, what does the token "new player" have to look forward to with a new expansion? It's just more MSQ in new zones, with a couple of new jobs. No matter what they would do to try to resolve the issues, it would not please everyone. People would still get bored and quit. People will always get bored and quit, especially if they find something more entertaining.
The story really does drive this game, regardless if someone likes it or not. It opens new areas. It opens new privileges (chocobos, buying property, etc.) It opens new content. Even Alexander has a story. FFXIV is a story-driven game.
You accuse me of painting a doom and gloom picture with the RMT, but aren't you doing the exact same? You talk of sealing wax, and ships, filled to the brim with cabbages and kings abandoning FFXIV. If anything, subscriptions went up with the release of HW. I imagine they'll do the same with SB. The players that leave will more likely be the ones that get bored of repeated content. Or friends of those who complain how awful the MSQ is, while they're trying to get through it. -
10-17-2016, 04:19 PMLewtskieIt's possibly from here on towards 4.0 all given stories are isolated within themselves. We may very well meet this girl, or other key figures but any plots running may exist to provide structure to the lore and only once the story for 4.0 begins does the actual plot start moving. Basically, good to have as it might flesh out characters and settings, but not 100% necessary to follow the story at the start of Stormblood.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiramu
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10-17-2016, 04:25 PMReynhartHere we go again...Quote:
Originally Posted by Kondor
Poor poor new players, they have so much new content to do before exhausting what the game has to offer...
May I remind you that, for them, ARR is entirely new content...HW is entirely new content.
If you give them level 60 right away and acces to Bloodstorm, they'll just be bored like every veteran players, and without the years of connection to the game, they'll just quit few months after.
The thing they can do, however, is not gating the jobs behind the new areas. In HW, no job is really tied to the story or to Ishgard itself... -
10-17-2016, 04:34 PMSparktacus
It would most likely be streamlined to just the very important parts and not the abundant amount of errand quests. There was a huge backlash over this during HW launch so I am sure they have an idea of how to handle it this time around. I assume that their intention is really to immerse every player into the story aspect of this game as that is what is (probably) most important to the devs.
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10-17-2016, 04:34 PMTarynHI've always felt that the MSQ would branch out after we leave Eorzea. Like everything that involves Eorzea would be self-contained, ending with Ala Mhigo and the Garlean Empire in Stormblood. Then a different story would begin (5.0 would be the start of a new self-contained story on a new continent). At least, that's how I imagine it happening.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewtskie
I've always felt the gating of jobs was a mistake. Someone might have enjoyed the story far better if they'd been able to play DRK, for instance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
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10-17-2016, 04:39 PMKhalitharI can agree with you here. They definitely could have (should have?) put the new Jobs in Coerthas Central Highlands instead of Ishgard. A bit of changes to the initial quests and the questgivers could have made it work fairly well.Quote:
Originally Posted by TarynH
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10-17-2016, 04:45 PMAquaslash
If they add a skip potion, they need to do the following:
Make it cost the same price as the expansion itself
Have it award you subpar gear
Block you from ever being able to get achievements and titkes from skipped content
Find a new way to revitalize old content.
I would like to emphasize that last point. If they dont do that content dies for good and that hurts us who WANT to play it.
Just as an example. I think Crystal Tower is WAY better than Shadows of Mhach. If they could do something so I don't have to spend hours getting into each one, thatd be awesome -
10-17-2016, 04:47 PMSpiritMuse
I don't know. People complaining about having to do MSQ in order to get ahead always feels to me like people complaining that they have to play the rest of the game in order to get to the final boss...
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10-17-2016, 04:52 PMReynhartEspecially since, IIRC, all quests between 30 and 50 have you go to ARR zones only...Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalithar
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10-17-2016, 04:54 PMSparktacusThat might be true in a single player game, but imagine placing that kind of ideal on a game like WoW. MMO's are generally way too big for this and as the years go on the stories take far far longer to complete then any single player games. If you tried to do that in 11 it would still take hundreds of hours (and still worth it, man some good stories there).Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiritMuse
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10-17-2016, 05:05 PMPhydeauxWorse than "very, very bad" is not respecting the name they gave. It's really... not hard. At all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kondor
And I'm sorry the game has a strong focus on the main story. Just kidding, not sorry.
While ARR could use a bit of rework on the 2.x quests to make them like Heavensward's, they definitely should not be taken away. -
10-17-2016, 05:10 PMBourne_EndeavorNo, it's still silly. You are comparing junk gear that is almost instantly replaced within a few levels at best to the best crafted gear available in Heavensward. The equivalent would be if a jump potion existed now, it gifted people lore gear. It doesn't in the Chinese version and it wouldn't this side of the ocean either. At least not when lore gear had any relevancy. There is no trend to start because it serves a singular purpose: skip ahead to the current expansion. It may not even do that-- capping off at level 50. A Realm Reborn has the added issue of showcasing some of the game's worst aspects. Classes are a terrible system even the developers have acknowledged due to how dull the leveling process is. Early dungeons are generally considered extremely boring and the story itself doesn't have the best pacing until we join the scions. Basically, when people talk about how fun FFXIV is. They aren't talking about early ARR. There's a good reason people usually claim "it gets so much better at level 50."Quote:
Originally Posted by TarynH
You know what game did implement it with runaway success? The most popular and profitable MMO to have ever existed.
A compromise which costs money. I originally suggested this very same alternative, however people pointed out condensing various bits of the MSQ would require script rewrites, new cutscenes and animations all to accommodate those chances since they now have to connect say, the beginning of Titan's questline to fighting him without the whole pointless company of heroes nonsense. Those resources will be pulled from Stormblood's budget, thus all of us may lose out on new content so the devs can tweak scenes we'll never see unless we choose to level an alt.
And? If they do, it's essentially free money for Square. What they find fun, frankly, isn't your concern. Some people only care about the raids, yet will run those same fights weekly. Some do nothing but craft. Others roleplay. The story drives this game for you. Not everyone feels the same. If they're skipping every cutscene, the story drives nothing. It's a chore they click through to get onto the content which interests them. Some of these players are among the most active. They merely do not share your subjective opinion on the story or its impact.
Not at all. Subs did go up at Heavensward's release, but they gradually declined. A primary complaint on various forums/reddit has largely been the sheer quest grind leading up to Heavensward. If it becomes mandatory to complete two full base games and all their associated patches, people will be deterred away. This will only get worse with future expansions. Like I've said previously. How many people would have picked up Legion if they were forced to play through fifteen years of old content? I guarantee it wouldn't be 3+ million. Companies like BioWare even specified cited this as reasons for why all their sequels are standalone stories that new players can jump into at any point. People will also leave if they're bored of content yet forced to slog through it anyway just to unlock "the fun part." -
10-17-2016, 05:24 PMLambdafish
The perfect way to structure the expansion in my opinion:
- Jobs outside the expansion area, must have beaten 2.0 (not 2.55) in order to unlock (people will cry foul, but logistically it makes the most sense as you can't have the job until 30 (if it starts at 30), and locking it behind level 50 allows the story to be structured around you actually being the WoL. People forget that the class quest story has MSQ implications). However you should not have to get all the way into Ala Mhigo before you can get your level 30 job (that you have to level to 60 before you can actually use in the expansion zone)
- Must have beaten 2.x MSQ and 3.0 MSQ (not 3.x, only the initial expansion story) - They cannot do any less than this, the story of 4.x is a continuation of the overarching MSQ and these questlines hold far too much context that will be used in 4.x. People can say that they can make a summary cutscene, and yes they can, of 3.1 onwards, but there is far too much information in two entire expansions to be condensed into a single cutscene.
I understand the arguments to an extent but people forget what the meaning of the word EXPANSION is, it is expanding upon what we have already, an additional node attached to a core, and it is expected that elements of the core (ARR) need to be done before you can access the expansion.
PSA: If you haven't done your MSQ, you have ~8 months to do it -
10-17-2016, 05:24 PMAnzaman
There's no need for level or story-skipping, just "fix" 2.X MSQ so it's not that much filler, and let people unlock new jobs earlier.
I had most fun while I still had quests to do, now at level cap it's pretty boring and I'm waiting for them to add new main and side-quests. -
10-17-2016, 05:26 PMYuella
The problem is new players playing this game for the endgame, not for the story. This is Final Fantasy! story is primary, endgame is secondary. Do you play FFVII because you want to fight Ruby and Emerald weapon? or because you want to experience the story? Do you play FFX because you want to do monster's arena? or because you want to experience the story?
it's like you buy FFVII and you want to fight Ruby Weapon immediately without having to progress through the story. -
10-17-2016, 05:30 PMAsteria_Solstice
All i am hearing is a bunch of spoiled brats demanding every single thing to be given to them without having to do anything.... Guess what? Work for it!!
I sooooooo can see Yoshi-P saying "NO!" Rant all u want ^^ Sucks being u :)