In 4.0 can we please get rid of caster bars on physical ranged jobs?!

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Originally Posted by Astyrah

I main Bard and i have adapted to the WM gameplay. i can do good damage with it and clear Trials EX and Raids with it but it doesn't mean im liking it. a good compromise would be to keep the cast bar on WM locked actions such as Iron Jaws and Empy Arrow and leave the archer skills instant cast, that way bloodletter procs could be utilized more properly and using a gcd immediately after repelling shot wouldn't be clunky.

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I planned to read this whole thread before I gave my opinion but this idea is perfect in my eyes. I also have learnt to deal with WM but honestly I still wish it wasn't there. I love the addition of the burst damage from barrage empyreal/sidewinder, and the convenience of iron jaws, and the utility of WP with a WAR in your group. But my main issue, as a lot of people have discussed, is the play style. I keep seeing people referring to the play style of running around like a headless chicken, that's not what I liked about BRD gameplay at all. To me it was the pace of the combat, weaving your oGCD in between skills, spamming those bloodletters just in case it proc'd, being able to quickly respond with blunt arrow rather then deliberately interrupting my cast which doesn't feel very fluid at all. I want to play a fast responsive bard that Orlando Bloom could be proud of, not the archery mini game on the original Wii.

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Originally Posted by mb52139

Thing is.. bards as is.. don't have the dps.. we don't have mobility and we dont have any more support then other classes.

So what exactly did we gain by sacrificing our mobility?

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Maybe if you didn't use that stupid macro you use, you would have batter dps

I would strongly want to see the cast bars go away, I loved to play bard during the 2.X series but once WM hit... it felt horrible and I could never really recover. I tried, I really tried but in the end, I just gave up the class, its a shame really, it was the most enjoyable DPS classes I ever played.

/rip Bard

People still haven't adapted to the cast bar? It's really easy to deal with, and if you move at the right time the skill will finish casting anyway, giving you extra time to move. It's more jarring for me to be able to shoot while running, simply because I've been used to the aiming since 3.0. If you can't handle it, maybe the class isn't the one for you.

There's a bit of contradiction in saying people aren't used to the cast bar, then admitting you're too used to it.

And the bigger issue is that a PHYSICAL DPS job that had the ability to maneuver freely (at the cost of damage), suddenly became a half-caster, yet still with the expense of the gained ddamage when providing the party support it was always originally penalized for.

So: A support-yet-not-a-support, physical dps with cast times for extra damage, that only loses the extra damage when it comes time to render support. . . What even is a Bard now?

This is how you kill a job, SE.

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Originally Posted by Mugiawara

I think people miss the 'smooth' feeling when using skills of 50 bards.
You can't have it all.
You can't have the DPS, 100% mobility, and support buffs so they had to knock something down to get it.
That's what people don't seem to understand. I said this before and people bit my ass about it.

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going by with what you said, what i think you don't seem to understand is that while foe's is the most used song in duty finder, our TP and MP songs are equally important during raid progression. but even then, other classes bring support buffs that are equally important so one can argue every other DPS class is as a hybrid support as BRD and MCH are.

ninjas get to goad (almost as good as a TP song) without having their damage reduced by 10%, get to use trick attack to give a -10% to the enemy, and lastly: enmity reducers and redirects

dragoons can improve crit rate which is a party wide DPS and HPS increase

monks can use mantra to aid raidwide healing (very important in early progression for some teams) and dragon kick if there's no DRK

summoners can battle res

black mage can give a magic def cd to a party member

granted BLM isn't mobile, SMN was very mobile.

BRD and MCH have the lowest weapon damage, are penalized for doing most of their party support skills, and have been given cast bars despite being a physical dps

most of us bards here aren't asking to beat MONK or BLACK MAGE in terms of DPS, but rather to give us something that was taken away unreasonably from us, we don't move around like headless chickens you meet in duty finder - we dislike the cast bar because it breaks the traits and certain ogcds of our class. what part of that you can't understand?

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

So: A support-yet-not-a-support, physical dps with cast times for extra damage, that only loses the extra damage when it comes time to render support. . . What even is a Bard now?

This is how you kill a job, SE.

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exactly. what did bard gain when they gave it cast times? what the negative people don't understand is WM and GB only brought BRD/MCH damage back on par with the scale of the damage they did in 2.xx (lv.50 sync content) in relation to the other DPS jobs. so it's more like a catch-up rather than an actual buff.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Then why was it taken away? Why can't we have it back?

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The Bard mobility wasn't really taken away as Wanderer's Minuet can be turned on and off. Bard is very much intended to stance dance based on the needed level of mobility in a fight. Wanderer's Minuet was intended to be a buff in damage during fights/phase were mobility was not necessary (most classes had increased dps in stationary fights such as Avatar in T8 the Bard did not) allowing Bards to trade unneeded mobility for increased damage.

The problem with WM is a combination of players defaulting to WM as base state and the OGCD Bloodletter/Rain of Death DoT proc system not working properly with cast times which causes WM damage to be less than intended.

Speaking as someone that only began playing shortly after HW was released, I never did enjoy 2.x Bard, thus meaning I got used to WM rather quick (and have probably achieved a level of mastery with Bard that I don't think Bards are actually weak at all - though they definitely require high crit in order to make the most of a certain trait which is basically the entire point of the class by now).

That said, I do agree that WM is heavily flawed, especially when compared to the MCH counterpart.

- MCH skills and traits were designed around Gauss Barrel, Bard isn't outside of Straighter Shot (and a 20% proc rate isn't much).

- In accordance with the above point, there is ZERO indication beforehand that Bard is suddenly going to turn into a caster-type class. I had met several new players that picked Bard as their first class that were so completely and utterly surprised that many either dropped the class or quit the game outright. And Bard doesn't get any earlier traits or skills that allow them a 100% chance to strategically circumvent the restrictions like MCH does - which furthers the belief that WM was really a last minute change intended to 'nerf' Bard playstyle out of a fear that nobody would play MCH, which is a crackpot theory tier belief that will continue to exist as long as the devs don't give us any straight answers as to why they thought this was a good idea in the first place.

- And continuing with the above, there are compounding reasons why the Bard class has a reputation as having very low damage and a dis-proportionally higher population that is less effective at playing the class compared to other classes. The total playing style change, the fact that you need to gear for super high crit rate to see more Bloodletter/Rain of Death procs, and then having said Bloodletter/Rain of Death reset procs being lost/clipping into GCDs... It's highly contradictory design.

- WM doesn't even add anything to the Bard playing style. Sure, it gave us Emperyal Arrow and Iron Jaws, but if its only positives are locking two essential skills behind it, then one has to question whether it's actually a good system at all. Minuet usage doesn't even help with the support side of Bards at all. One could argue Gauss Barrel doesn't do anything for MCH support too, but at least their support doesn't share cast timers like Bard songs still do.

Despite what it sounds like, I don't even have that much of a problem with WM at the end of the day. But from a design standpoint, the only reasonable response is to ask why it was created the way it was, and it's very very easy to see why people hate it so much.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

The Bard mobility wasn't really taken away as Wanderer's Minuet can be turned on and off. Bard is very much intended to stance dance based on the needed level of mobility in a fight. Wanderer's Minuet was intended to be a buff in damage during fights/phase were mobility was not necessary (most classes had increased dps in stationary fights such as Avatar in T8 the Bard did not) allowing Bards to trade unneeded mobility for increased damage.

The problem with WM is a combination of players defaulting to WM as base state and the OGCD Bloodletter/Rain of Death DoT proc system not working properly with cast times which causes WM damage to be less than intended.

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If Bards were actually meant to stance dance, the devs would have drastically reduced WM activation cooldown forever ago. 15 seconds is ridiculous. Can you imagine Cleric Stance with a 15 second cooldown? There's a reason why raid Bards use Feint of all skills if they have to move during a fight. I highly, highly doubt that is intended behavior by the developers, this is players trying to circumvent something that clearly didn't have much thought put into it.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

The Bard mobility wasn't really taken away as Wanderer's Minuet can be turned on and off. Wanderer's Minuet was intended to be a buff in damage during fights/phase were mobility was not necessary (most classes had increased dps in stationary fights such as Avatar in T8 the Bard did not) allowing Bards to trade unneeded mobility for increased damage.

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On the T8 part, as a bard my mobility allowed me to handle mechanics like eating a mine, homing missile and tower push without sacrificing my skills. While the dmg buff of WM is nice i don't like it and after 3 patches of trying i just gave up and switched to another class because the cast bar is so finnicky

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Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

and all that mobility was never needed. ppl ran around cause they could, not cause they had to.

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Not 100% true. Back in the coil days, Bards were assigned a few mechanics here and there which required someone to run around. Yes it's true that other jobs could do them too, but if they were to bring more of these mechanics back, it could justify allowing them to have their complete mobility back. Every group has a BRD/MCH in it anyway, so it could definitely work.

I hate WM but i would no be opposed to a kind of "aimaing bar". You aim, the longer you do it, the stronger is your shot and if you want / need to move and interupt the cast, you still shoot, doing less damages but still shooting.
Seems to me like a good compromise considering you can move at a certain % of your cast and still finish it as a caster dps / heal ^^"

I loved Bard before Heavensward and I still like it well enough now, but it's not really the same with the addition of WM. I found Bard fluid and fast. I could always be attacking/following my rotation, even when moving out of AOEs/doing other mechanics/providing party support. I loved that. Also, casting in this game can be clunky at times (i.e.: interrupted casting after Repelling Shot; sometimes interrupted if you cast too fast after moving). Regardless, I can deal with it and still play Bard a lot.

But, as has been mentioned a few times: all current ranged classes are casters. There is no other option. I think this is the core problem that needs resolution, whether it be by changing Bard or introducing a new ranged job in 4.0.

I loved bard in 2.0. I used to run ex fights all day because it was so fun. After Wanderer's Minuet came and I couldn't get used to how clunky and unnatural the job feels I only use Bard in fates or lower level dungeons where I dont have to use WM. Lately I just use Bard for Yokai spam.

Has anyone done the math to see if the Archer class without the Bard job stone is viable at all? I don't mean for top dps but good enough to do 50-60 dungeons on?

I don't care if SE keeps WM on Bard but can you make Archer alone viable then? Please?

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Originally Posted by Niko_Kishiko

I loved bard in 2.0. I used to run ex fights all day because it was so fun. After Wanderer's Minuet came and I couldn't get used to how clunky and unnatural the job feels I only use Bard in fates or lower level dungeons where I dont have to use WM. Lately I just use Bard for Yokai spam.

Has anyone done the math to see if the Archer class without the Bard job stone is viable at all? I don't mean for top dps but good enough to do 50-60 dungeons on?

I don't care if SE keeps WM on Bard but can you make Archer alone viable then? Please?

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you can probably go and do OK if you're running pre-made with your friends. but for public DF i'd advice you use the job stone. you will have reduced stats without it and you will lose your songs and your AOE potential (rain of death ogcd spam), and as a result you might get called out for it and may even upset people you run with

Kind of ridiculous to have a class play one style an entire expansion, and then completely change its play style in the next. I get some of you who are saying "I don't mind it" but you need to think about the average person D:.

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Originally Posted by Niko_Kishiko

I loved bard in 2.0. I used to run ex fights all day because it was so fun. After Wanderer's Minuet came and I couldn't get used to how clunky and unnatural the job feels I only use Bard in fates or lower level dungeons where I dont have to use WM. Lately I just use Bard for Yokai spam.

Has anyone done the math to see if the Archer class without the Bard job stone is viable at all? I don't mean for top dps but good enough to do 50-60 dungeons on?

I don't care if SE keeps WM on Bard but can you make Archer alone viable then? Please?

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Some Classes used to be better than Jobs back in 2.0, but Classes are really inferior to Jobs now in 3.0. Losing out on the Job stone stats and the Lv.60 abilities is a big loss now.

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Originally Posted by Worldofwarcraft

Kind of ridiculous to have a class play one style an entire expansion, and then completely change its play style in the next. I get some of you who are saying "I don't mind it" but you need to think about the average person D:.

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What's the average person then?
The forums aren't the majority of the Bard players.

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Originally Posted by Astyrah

BRD and MCH have the lowest weapon damage, are penalized for doing most of their party support skills, and have been given cast bars despite being a physical dps
most of us bards here aren't asking to beat MONK or BLACK MAGE in terms of DPS, but rather to give us something that was taken away unreasonably from us, we don't move around like headless chickens you meet in duty finder - we dislike the cast bar because it breaks the traits and certain ogcds of our class. what part of that you can't understand?

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Now go read what I said in the other two posts.
In all honesty, I don't even like how Bard is being played out in general.
I wanted a damn Support, not this half-ass job of a DPS support.
PS. They are still Physical DPS.
There are Physical and Magical DPS.
It's only up until 3.0 have I heard people say CASTER DPS thanks to WM.
I'm even not saying WM is good, I'm just saying I'm use to it and I see why they did it that way.
Whether is right or wrong on it.

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Originally Posted by Mugiawara

Now go read what I said in the other two posts.

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Originally Posted by Mugiawara

Meh, he tried to please everyone but the ones who looked forward to a more supportive stance. You only do so much when you're making a hybrid job.
And most bard's don't even sing, and the most used is Foe's and that kills your MP, not your DPS.

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Originally Posted by Mugiawara

I'm sorry but Bard was never suppose to have high DPS like every other job.
It's a hybrid, it's a support DPS and I won't defend it's all that great of a support DPS but it is what it is.
Again, I just think you guys miss how smooth it was to run and shoot.

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i did before i replied to your post, which is why my reply to you was:

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Originally Posted by Astyrah

going by with what you said, what i think you don't seem to understand is that while foe's is the most used song in duty finder, our TP and MP songs are equally important during raid progression. but even then, other classes bring support buffs that are equally important so one can argue every other DPS class is as a hybrid support as BRD and MCH are.

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Originally Posted by Mugiawara

In all honesty, I don't even like how Bard is being played out in general.

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same here ^^

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Originally Posted by Mugiawara

I wanted a damn Support, not this half-ass job of a DPS support.
PS. They are still Physical DPS.
There are Physical and Magical DPS.
It's only up until 3.0 have I heard people say CASTER DPS thanks to WM.
I'm even not saying WM is good, I'm just saying I'm use to it and I see why they did it that way.
Whether is right or wrong on it.

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yeah i get where you're coming from. i feel this is where SE made a mistake of putting Bard as the Job advancement of the Archer Class. you will have people who want a proper bow and arrow DPS and you'd have people who want the full supportive route. whatever they do, one side of the crowd will never be pleased.

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Originally Posted by Mugiawara

I apologies if I sounded harsh in this entire conversation

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same ^^ but hey, it's a free forum we're allowed to say what we feel as long as it falls within the rules SE enforces :P

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Originally Posted by Astyrah

yeah i get where you're coming from. i feel this is where SE made a mistake of putting Bard as the Job advancement of the Archer Class. you will have people who want a proper bow and arrow DPS and you'd have people who want the full supportive route. whatever they do, one side of the crowd will never be pleased.

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And this is what I said to that.

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Originally Posted by Mugiawara

It's a hybrid, it's a support DPS and I won't defend it's all that great of a support DPS but it is what it is.

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It's not. As you said, the other jobs can buff you up in a fashion but NO ONE else is getting penalized from it but now I can kinda understand a little bit on your end
and admittedly I don't play the harder raids [Just normal ones] so I dunno how the TP/MP issues fair there.
I feel like this is the fault of SE really. I mean they try to do something new and it's just making people upset.
Whether our mobility, the damage or even supportive/songs that kill your damage.
I think they are nerfing a bit too much for an already lower DPS + the songs that also kill DPS that have to be used in raids.
So yeah now that I think about it, especially in harder raids
I can see where people would start to get pissed off by trying to focus the casting, trying to sing, trying to have good damage all at once.
I just looked at it from my side so I think I understand a bit more.
I apologies if I sounded harsh in this entire conversation as I didn't mean to sound rude or hateful. http://www.belltreeforums.com/attach...1&d=1468773685

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Originally Posted by bardaboo

Maybe if you didn't use that stupid macro you use, you would have batter dps

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Hah, in your opinion. No need to get personal. You might have too much time, if you searched out my posts, in this large thread.. Just for a 'told you so' post.

Wanderer's Minuet was a mistake.

Reply-with-quote isn't working for me right now for some reason, but the question was -- if you're used to playing it that way in one expansion, why change it for the next?

Because sometimes it's needed. See Paladin in 2.0 versus Paladin in 3.0

Also, WM/GB just aren't fun. They are mind-numbingly boring.

WM could use some adjustments to work the abilities more naturally, but besides that it is fine. Same for GB. I main MCH and I can still be pretty mobile since the amount of casting I do is still very small.

Also, switching in and out for GB is not recommended unless you really want that very small DPS increase. GB on and off is most ideal if you have to do a lot of moving during a phase which is not the case a lot of times.

I will never understand the WM haters. i guess all those complaining will eventually lead the devs to change the playstyle again

Machinist should keep it, as it's a mechanic that was intended for them in the first place.

Bard I don't care though.

WM does feel like a tacked-on unnecessary feature, but at the same time it's great to not have to tolerate bards who run around pewpewing fights like a 6-yr old overdosed on Mountain Dew thinking they are playing a CoD game.

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Originally Posted by Jas710

but at the same time it's great to not have to tolerate bards who run around pewpewing fights like a 6-yr old overdosed on Mountain Dew thinking they are playing a CoD game.

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Do they trigger epileptic seizures or something for you? Do people jumping and running around in a video game affect you that much? You may want to talk to a professional about this.


Were you upset when you learned FFXIV would have a jump button?

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

...
Were you upset when you learned FFXIV would have a jump button?

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Actually, I can recall there being talk of people genuinely upset that they were adding jumping into 2.0....

To be honest, I never noticed much of the jumping around like an idiot bards that people mention.. BUT that could be because I was 'the' bard for our static/raid group, and I was pretty grounded. (pun intentional)

As for WM.. I don't know.. I am getting the feeling that any changes now would be detrimental. Damage is done.. we'll probably just have to live with it.

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Originally Posted by awbalto

On the T8 part, as a bard my mobility allowed me to handle mechanics like eating a mine, homing missile and tower push without sacrificing my skills. While the dmg buff of WM is nice i don't like it and after 3 patches of trying i just gave up and switched to another class because the cast bar is so finnicky

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But there were also long periods of time when everyone was just staying stacked up on the rear of Avatar once mechanics had been handled. During these times all jobs save bard experienced a noticeable increase in average dps. WM was intended to rectify those kinds of situations.

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Originally Posted by TaranTatsuuchi

Actually, I can recall there being talk of people genuinely upset that they were adding jumping into 2.0....

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Oh, I remember that saltstorm fondly. People started losing their minds in regards to jumping. Threats to leave, doomsayers proclaiming it'll kill the game, that it'll only invite the worst kind of people. Of course this was par for the course in 1.x when all the changes were slowly being thrown in. Hell, there was even a fallout when they started clearing up the momentum with walking/running, lol.

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Originally Posted by mb52139

To be honest, I never noticed much of the jumping around like an idiot bards that people mention.. BUT that could be because I was 'the' bard for our static/raid group, and I was pretty grounded. (pun intentional)

As for WM.. I don't know.. I am getting the feeling that any changes now would be detrimental. Damage is done.. we'll probably just have to live with it.

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That's because it rarely existed, if even at all. It's just the catch-all justification people use to have whatever opinion, whether they've actually seen this jackalope or not. But you're right, Bard is a shambled amalgamation of a job that just barely managed to get footing after it was beaten with the tinker bat enough times. One more swing could either miraculously set everything into place or collapse the entire thing.

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Originally Posted by Lewtskie

That's because it rarely existed, if even at all. It's just the catch-all justification people use to have whatever opinion, whether they've actually seen this jackalope or not. But you're right, Bard is a shambled amalgamation of a job that just barely managed to get footing after it was beaten with the tinker bat enough times. One more swing could either miraculously set everything into place or collapse the entire thing.

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I would be one of the bards that jumped around and ran around a lot depending on what I was doing. For example when my brd was level 58 and I got in to Satasha in a leveling roulette with basically no buttons to hit at all, I'd get so bored I'd start jumping and attacking to amuse myself because after getting used to the more difficult buttons, suddenly being without 90% of my attacks left me really bored.

After you're stuck casting and suddenly have all that freedom again, can't help but feel compelled to stretch those legs out. Also, it's Sastasha; nobody cares what goes on during Sastasha. I've literally gone through Sastahsa as a MNK using one hand and sometimes a foot while I ate pizza and watched anime. Had a SCH /follow me once while I was leveling WAR and told me they're taking a nap. But this argument stemmed way when HW first released and WM just being discovered, where apparently in important dungeons every Bard in the game was on crack and needing a to scratch their brain so bad they needed to smash it against the ceiling, or run from the purple gremlins trying to steal their dps. Maybe since I mained Bard during 2.x I just didn't realize it was happening as there must have been some talent that made me on crack as well.

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Originally Posted by AlphaFox

Seeing as I am level 60 with it now and decided to level it through PotD till about 57 id say it does. Its fine as is. :P

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This logic is extremely flawed. Potd is a cakewalk compared to just about any other content. The only difficult things about it are the RNG and the possibility of terrible party composition. It doesn't teach you how to play your class properly, it actually promotes bad habits instead. I don't play BRD, but I would take the word of a BRD who leveled by dungeons over the one who did it via Potd. At least dungeons offer a degree of a challenge and an opportunity to actually see the full potential of a class.

BRD definitely needed a higher skill floor. You can argue if WM was the answer or not, but it's learning curve before 3.0 was much lower than other DPS jobs.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

BRD definitely needed a higher skill floor. You can argue if WM was the answer or not, but it's learning curve before 3.0 was much lower than other DPS jobs.

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I'd rather the complexity be rotational rather than the addition of cast bars. WoW's Hunter class did have 1-2 cast moves over time but for the most part all of it's moves either became instant or one in particular gave you the ability to move while casting it, that class from the very beginning has been a ranged class with no casting bars outside of the occasional channeled ability that you would use. It maintained it's mobility on top of it's dps being good to fantastic, something can be balanced with good dps and mobility without having to give up either. I've heard someone say you can't have both and I adamantly disagree, you CAN have both and still be a competitive class. If you think the class was too simple and needs complexity however, that's a separate argument.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

I'd rather the complexity be rotational rather than the addition of cast bars. WoW's Hunter class did have 1-2 cast moves over time but for the most part all of it's moves either became instant or one in particular gave you the ability to move while casting it, that class from the very beginning has been a ranged class with no casting bars outside of the occasional channeled ability that you would use. It maintained it's mobility on top of it's dps being good to fantastic, something can be balanced with good dps and mobility without having to give up either. I've heard someone say you can't have both and I adamantly disagree, you CAN have both and still be a competitive class. If you think the class was too simple and needs complexity however, that's a separate argument.

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It is hard to compare with WoW, because how they approach mechanics and scaling is different from FFXIV. In FFXIV's case, cast bars did most definitely add a layer of strategy that the job needed. I would just argue they needed to let it sit in the oven a bit more with BRD, because it came out not refined like it should. Basically, the idea was solid, it was just not executed well for BRD specifically.

For MCH, they do not even have to deal with cast bars much. You have one for Hot Shot, Lead Shot, and Split Shot. Two are a DoT/Buff. If you are using Slug or Clean Shot on a cast bar, you are playing it wrong. Also being supported by many OGCD's that make everything work together naturally. It is a wonderfully designed job.

Maybe it will be better if the devs change the casting bar into a buff icon that vanish and debuff the bard the moment the bard move before the buff timer is out.
This way the bar is removed without messing up with the mechanic.

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Originally Posted by whiteblade89

This logic is extremely flawed. Potd is a cakewalk compared to just about any other content. The only difficult things about it are the RNG and the possibility of terrible party composition. It doesn't teach you how to play your class properly, it actually promotes bad habits instead. I don't play BRD, but I would take the word of a BRD who leveled by dungeons over the one who did it via Potd. At least dungeons offer a degree of a challenge and an opportunity to actually see the full potential of a class.

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I'd trust a person who leveled via PotD than a person who leveled via FATEs though...

My $0.02:

WM is great, I like it. I've done a few EX Primals with it on and honestly, a good BRD will use WM, a great BRD will know when to switch it off and on. I've only ever raided with MCH, which was my main back before 3.2, but people will complain about not being able to move for the sake of just moving... not for strategy or tactics, but just purely to jump around and run around like a headless chicken, and I'm glad SE shot that down because that was annoying as hell.

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Originally Posted by ErryK

I'd trust a person who leveled via PotD than a person who leveled via FATEs though...

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What exactly do you do in PoTD 1-50 that requires a higher level skill of play of your job than a FATE?