I don't think your understand "Traditional Final Fantasy Universe" has nothing to do with the FFXI but the class system that has been used in Final Fantasy games in the past. For example White mage has always been the job with healing abilities/protect/shell/raise, black mage has always been the job with devastating offensive magic, etc. This has NOTHING to do with FFXI. These names have meaning and thus defined by the games of the past Final fantasy series that used a job system.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coglin
The quote is from Lead Battle Planner Akihiko Matsui in May when they announced the jobs. He said unlocking ""Traditional Final Fantasy job". I"m fully aware that other games have brd using bows but to me that doesn't fit tradition. Wouldn't find it out if one of the job in this game was necromancer?
O god not haste, pretty much the great equalizer of spells. I hope they don't bring it back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Onji_T
Confusion: Archer to Bard? Where is the Ranger Job?
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11-09-2011, 09:21 AMJudgeN
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11-09-2011, 09:29 AMgrandmif you want to talk classic final fantasy the bard in FF4 used his harp for ranged DD aswell as buffs. so for the bard job to be used by a class in FF14 it could only go on the ranged weapon user.Quote:
Originally Posted by JudgeN
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11-09-2011, 09:43 AMCoglinWait, your saying bard is not a "Traditional Final Fantasy job" ? You making less and less sense each post.Quote:
Originally Posted by JudgeN
Also, yes I know what was said in may, thats where the quote I made earlier cam from:
So we have established that you verify they wanted to add tradition jobs in may. You agree that bard is a traditional FF job correct? You agree that the devs said and I quote "Rather than being advanced versions of classes, we would like players to think of jobs as specialized playing styles optimized for partying"Quote:
Rather than being advanced versions of classes, we would like players to think of jobs as specialized playing styles optimized for partying
So they did all of what they said they were gonna do as far as jobs so far. So what the problem ? -
11-09-2011, 09:56 AMJudgeNI know what bards use and how they play that's not the issue. The issue is the move from a full on a DD to something that is not a full on DD. I have no problem with the job bard, but a DD job is probably going to be taken away and moved to support with this transition. I don't feel that it is correct move, I think they should add bard as its own separate job and start a specialization of support jobs from it.Quote:
Originally Posted by grandm
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11-09-2011, 10:13 AMCoglinWhat class would you propose job stems from?Quote:
Originally Posted by JudgeN
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11-09-2011, 10:21 AMgrandmyou agree that we need a support class/job?Quote:
Originally Posted by JudgeN
you agree that a bard using a ranged weapon makes sense?
i wonder if you agree there is too many DD's in the game. i'm guessing they feel they need a support class/job urgently and its something that can't wait. for the new jobs already they have to create new quests, gear, lore, abilitie's(probally). this would take time and a job is not as big as a class, to create a new class would take a lot more work than to create a job. so if they need a support class/job quick the best time for it to come in is with the jobs. if they have to many DDs one DD was going to lose out. bard is ranged archer is ranged. and thus we have this. strange i expected this rukus over the mages getting black and white more than the bard -
11-09-2011, 10:34 AMJudgeNIf you really want to know, CNJ would have never had nukes those would have went to THM from the get go to start out. Then it would have followed this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coglin
GLD=PLD
MRD=WAR
CNJ=WHM & BRD
THM= BLM & DRK
ARC = RNG
PUG = MNK
Lets not put words in my mouth, the game has a support class. Its THM with the recent nerfs to put CNJ in front runner on healing.Quote:
Originally Posted by grandm
Bards do use a range weapon no argument there.
Do I feel like we have to many DD? Not at all.
I just don't feel like everything is black and white, and I know there are people out there that like the role of a range heavy DD without having to do buffs. -
11-09-2011, 10:43 AMgrandmbards do use ranged weapons in FF they use harps that fire notesQuote:
Originally Posted by JudgeN
as for your idea of gving DoM two jobs. i bet this was looked into. and then decided it would be unfair to give any class two jobs when all other only get one. best to piss off one group of ppl, archers. than all the DoW class -
11-09-2011, 11:39 AMImagene
Actually, say for example they fix archer to be 80% the DD of a lancer/dragoon (right now it's pretty much about 50%); but when you advance your job to bard, your buffs raise your DD efficiency 20%. so technically, your solo capability is the same as a lancer/dragoon. (80% + 20%)
in a party however, your buffs reaches everyone, so lancer/drgs will be doing 120% so its still better to bring a bard than not. -
11-09-2011, 11:45 AMCoglinSee this ^^ makes sense, has logic, and applies to the rules of how this will work, set by the devs.Quote:
Originally Posted by grandm
This ^^ is pretend fantansy that changes the rules to fit there needs. One job per class for the first round. It not that complicated.Quote:
Originally Posted by JudgeN
Archers job in the first round of jobs will be Bard. Its rather comical how you post so much fiction with so much intent as if in some warped way you expect to magically and unrealistically change the facts. -
11-09-2011, 12:01 PMJudgeNOk we are going to just disagree then, your "LOL YOU MAD BRO" posts are just going around in circles. Yes the developers said this is how it will be so they are correct, gamers aren't allowed to disagree. My bad didn't realize that was how it worked.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coglin
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11-09-2011, 12:13 PMScherwizWhy do you insist on going in circles? It all comes down to ARC not getting (As far as we know) a job that lines up exactly with its class. Like Conjurer getting Thief, or Gladiator getting Time Mage etc etc... There are too many what ifs too many variables. I am perfectly happy with whatever the dev team decides as long as the job is engaging and fun to play. Now thats not to say I don't believe ARC should of been nerfed just to make BRD its job, the classes should not be ignored inspite of the jobs, the jobs themselves being "Enhanced" versions or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coglin
Infact, I would say this very argument makes the case to make the classes also stand out, possibly even with their own gear and such, but thats just how I feel. -
11-09-2011, 12:45 PMImagene
Actually, say for example they fix archer to be 80% the DD of a lancer/dragoon (right now it's pretty much about 50%); but when you advance your job to bard, your buffs raise your DD efficiency 20%. so technically, your solo capability is the same as a lancer/dragoon. (80% + 20%)
in a party however, your buffs reaches everyone, so lancer/drgs will be doing 120% so its still better to bring a bard than not.
that said, i have my fingers crossed for a ranger flavour job and af for archers. -
11-09-2011, 12:50 PMLavaniThis is what I, and a lot of people have been trying to say. A lot of people justified the ARC nerf because it was "getting the BRD job" or because "it was OP for so long". Why not nerf ARC down to an EQUAL level with the other DD's, and when the BRD class is equiped just simply scale down the damage output. This way people that want to play buffer can do less damage while enhancing everyone else, and people that want to be pure ranged physical DPS can do so, while enjoying the same damage output as the rest of the DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scherwiz
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11-09-2011, 01:58 PMCoglin
I disagree, the ARC nerf came because they were way OP, and they made thread upon thread complaining about it. Then everyone leveled them. Now LNC/MRD are OP and everyone. I would guess that MRD/LNC will get scaled down slightly and ARC will get boosted slightly again. I am fairly sure that the MRD/LNC/ARC changes, have nothing to do with the jobs incommming.
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11-09-2011, 02:06 PMLavani
Yes ARC nerf came because they were OP, and now LNC is OP. But there was no need to nerf ARC into the ground either. I also read a lot of posts of people saying it was because of the BRD class, as if that justifies the nerf. I never said SE themselves said that.
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11-09-2011, 06:41 PMSkuldThis is the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scherwiz
For ppl as me who start playing from day1 as archer thinking on a pure DD class, switching to a buffer... well is not what i was expecting when I piked it.
For me its ok to have the option to get the brd, just asking for the option to get a rng also. -
11-09-2011, 07:43 PMAgoven
Has anyone actually looked at the GC org charts? Like the power structure in each GC? You really should on the GC pages...because um Rangers are mentioned in the Adder's Nest GC. The structure of GCs and how they play out and the roles of each smaller company...there's a lot to be learned about the future of classes and GCs from those org charts.
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11-10-2011, 02:25 AMgrandmthis does not mean much. as musketeer has its own guild. yoshi-p has already stated he will put in the game what is needed as priorities, then put in what is missing. things have not been scraped, only put on the back burnerQuote:
Originally Posted by Agoven
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11-10-2011, 03:37 AMAnonymooseThe carpentry guild is referred to as Rangers on that page as well - which really renders any comparison made between the ARC guild and the possibility of RNG moot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Agoven
This is a case where people just need a dictionary:
Ranger/ˈrānjər/
Noun
1. A keeper of a park, forest, area, or countryside.
2. A member of a body of armed men.
3. A wanderer.
Are park rangers proficient in archery? Did all of the Power Rangers use Power Bows? Did Aragorn ever fire a single arrow? Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. -
11-10-2011, 03:41 AMMairuzu
Can't wait to see some ugly looking highlanders play me some tunes on their little harps
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11-10-2011, 04:34 AMRemVye
How about you all calm down and wait until the job information is released... or better yet, until it's in the game before you make a judgement about it.
Regardless of "archer turning to bard doesn't make sense" (I think it does... but anyway) how do you know it's going to be support onry? They might be effective at DD while also providing buffs.
Just wait and see.... that's all we can do. Either way, it will be fun. -
11-11-2011, 07:15 AMLavani
Because a bard is a support class in final fantasy. They should have added bard AFTER the RNG job.
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11-11-2011, 07:17 AMPrettyPrincess
what is the difference between an archer and ranger?
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11-11-2011, 07:27 AMScherwizYou dont know?!Quote:
Originally Posted by PrettyPrincess
http://www.google.com/url?source=img...Xwa3In_0NX9Gmwhttp://www.google.com/url?source=img...JNYKk327L0pciQ
It's the hat.
In all seriousness though, they don't really play the same imo, but that could just be me. -
11-11-2011, 07:38 AMSheth
I hope they make parties more meaningful before they add other jobs, the mechanics need work and the mosnters you exp on are almost all the same so debuffing and buffing is meaningless just let your mages spam stone skin....monsters are all the same they just look different fighting strategy is always the same...so why add more jobs? when monsters are all the same it dosen't make any sense...
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11-11-2011, 07:39 AMereskigal
I personal think SE should have made LNC or MRD into brd then they can feel how arc's feel about this. Turn the table alittle.
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11-11-2011, 07:41 AMAnonymooseIn the lore, the differences are a lot like the real world, honestly. The fact that Rangers in Final Fantasy have generally used Bows, that's not the identity of the job by any means at all. The notion that there's a necessary link is a fallacy brought on by previous experience. However, Rangers have also been known to wield:Quote:
Originally Posted by PrettyPrincess
- Boomerangs (Final Fantasy II, XI)
- Daggers (Final Fantasy V, XI, A2)
- Bouncyballs (Final Fantasy X)
- Crossbows (Final Fantasy XI)
- Guns (Final Fantasy XI)
The abilities, however, have the common theme of nature. This is because a Ranger isn't necessarily a "User of ranged attacks" as much as it is "Ranges over the terrain and is a master of everything on it." Think less FFXI ranger (though it did have Widescan...) and think more mountain ranger. Or Aragorn. Or any other use of Ranger outside of Final Fantasy.
Many do fight from a distance and have abilities like Aim, but the nature theme extends to tracking animals, calling on their abilities, etc. Also, Rangers are more reliant on doing DAMAGE via ranged attacks where as ARCHERS are more reliant on tactical damage dealing, as in attacks that, while they do a bit of damage, more importantly do things like control enmity, inflict status effects, bind the enemy, etc.
Ironically enough, one of the Rangers from FFV was dressed in a bard outfit.
Either way, Ranger uses a LOT more than bows, and Archer has always been a status inflicting class. Giving it Bard makes 10x more sense than anybody has given it credit for so far.
Seriously; naysayers on this topic, I invite you to disprove any of this and state a counter-argument more productive than, "I don't want to do any support! I JUST WANT: BANG BANG BANG!" -
11-11-2011, 07:42 AMPrettyPrincessMOAR SENSE I LOVE ITQuote:
Originally Posted by Anonymoose
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11-11-2011, 07:52 AMScherwizYes, thank you, that was much more than I was willing to type. Also, they do not have to disprove anything, it boils down to what some people want from a job, like the LNC's campaigning against Wyverns for example. While you or I may not care that the job is BRD, others want a ranged damage dealer, and I feel the remedy to this lies within the Archer class itself if they can rebalance it correcly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymoose
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11-11-2011, 08:10 AMIsaveronBard should have been its own class, like the original plan was. Then they could have made its job dancer, or something else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lavani
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11-11-2011, 08:16 AMAnonymooseIt's a shame that Ranged DPS is anachronistic compared to new-school (post-broadband) MMO design; I won't drone on about it again for everyone's sake, but a few pages ago I went on a spree about why classes that ONLY do damage while being safe, or ONLY do buffing without any survivability can't exist in a Class-to-Job system, or in modern MMOs as a whole, really.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scherwiz
Those who are disappointed about Barcher will probably keep getting disappointed unless they come to understand the modern directions in responsibility balance in MMOs. They'll be disappointed when Musketeer turns into something like Corsair, they'll be disappointed when Ranger is finally announced and it's like, an extension of Beastmaster or something.
Either that, or I'LL be disappointed when they cave and add a pure ranged DD class where, like Archers do now, they just bump the DPS as high as possible and stand safely away from the mob, taking no damage and only accepting the responsibility of "don't take hate" - just alternating between going absolutely apeshit with WS and then standing around doing f**k all while their enmity lowers. Eugh. -
11-11-2011, 08:16 AMVyncentRangers are finely attuned to nature. They are generally able to camoflague themselves with foilage, heal small wounds, track their prey, and call upon nature to strengthen their attacks or defend themselves. When engaged in mortal combat, rangers are versatile in their attacks, competent with daggers, swords, and/or their bow and arrow, but their swiftness of foot and need for stealth precludes them from wearing heavier armor more suited for toe-to-toe defense.Quote:
Originally Posted by PrettyPrincess
Archers, on the other hand, shoot arrows at things.
My first character in FFXIV was my own "ranger" character, primarily built around ARC, but also included CNJ and GLA skills for healing, stoneskin, and dagger/sword fighting as necessary. It was a ton of fun until the limitations of the game upon its release eventually drove me away until 1.19. -
11-11-2011, 08:41 AMScherwizI think it is ok that you(?) may not want another ranged DD in this game, however, you are not the only person playing, and I think we can both agree that since the creation of these forums there has been nothing except asking for players feedback and trying to gauge community reaction to one thing or another. IF players want a ranged damage dealer, which archer in its currently "nerfed" state is not, then they should be allowed to ask for it even if now is not the time to add it or whatever other argument and bias others may have against it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymoose
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11-11-2011, 09:08 AMelreed
I dont see much problem having a role as buffer and damage dealer, in any case if they fix the damage of archer the job itself will be one of the best, you can hit hard and you can upgrade the damage of the party and yourself.
Before the patch and after the patch archer has a hard time soloing compared to marauder/pugilist/gladiator or mages so having extra buffs can help a lot. -
11-11-2011, 09:08 AMAnonymooseI SMELL A POLL! ... (Well, those words weren't very well thought out...)Quote:
Originally Posted by Scherwiz
Though, to be fair, I'm not really talking about my own desires for what should and shouldn't be in the game - I would just lament the imbalance of having classes that have a lot of responsibilities, and then a cop-out class that just stands where nothing can hit it and and spams the same action until hate gets too high.
Idk, I just see a subtle but important difference between that stance and me actually saying my opinion should be gospel. Are there people who think it's fair and fine if one job has markedly less responsibilities than the others and just gets to faff around whenever their one trick will get themselves or someone else killed? -
11-11-2011, 09:32 AMScherwizThe same can be said about Black Mage though if you really want to boil down to it, there isn't any reason why Ranger/Whatever shouldn't be given crowd control abilities there are other advantages to standing directly away from battle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymoose
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11-11-2011, 09:36 AMAnonymooseThis could be; BLM is in the same danger that ARC was - but only if it loses access to any major chunk of THM spells it had. The THM skill set is full of things that need to be closely monitored - DoT rotations need to stay up, back-up sacrifices need to be thrown, Keeping stygian spikes II on the tank, recycling the MP management abilities - actually doing direct damage is almost a secondary responsibility. As long as ANY portion of this carries over from THM to BLM, I'd say it's safe from the ranged DD scenario I'm concerned about. Hell, even MP Management, Hate Management, and Backup Cures would be more responsibility than "Don't take hate. Don't get in the way. Keep kicking ass."Quote:
Originally Posted by Scherwiz
EDIT:
Crowd control would be a nice start for secondary responsibility for a ranged DD, but it'd be so rarely required; single-target battles and parties wouldn't require it at all, only dungeon/stronghold raids (Which again, is a nice start, but one or two more things would be nice. I'd say maybe some buff rotations from a distance, but that's bard, and that's what people are angry about - any other ideas? There's still time to influence the next ranged classes.) -
11-11-2011, 11:56 AMCoglinQuote:
Originally Posted by PrettyPrincess
From Merriam-Webster:
Archer - A person who uses a bow and arrow
Ranger - 1. A soldiers or armed men who range over a region as law enforcement.
2. A soldier especially trained in close-range fighting and in raiding tactics. -
11-11-2011, 12:28 PMScherwizOh GOD ANYTHING BUT THAT, YOU WIN, I GIVE UP, GAME OVER MAN GAME OVER.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymoose