Players Who Don't pull their weight.

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Originally Posted by CheshirePuss

Age and Maturity literally have nothing to do with each other, however. Maturity is birthed by self experiences and awareness. Age is birthed by wrinkles and wondering where all this grey hair came from.

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I am not the one that started talking of older and age! I responded in kind!

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Originally Posted by odintius

This is just a form shame language this person is playing a video game allot of so called adults will condem other adults as being childish and wasting your life away. I usually just ask so when did it happen ( they respond What )when you became so boring in your life that you need to try bring me in on your misery.

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I feel like that'd be justifying cause in their favor if you allowed yourself to respond. Though the rules in regards to the internet as to what dictates child like or adult like behavior is murkier than the pope's pits on a summer day

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Originally Posted by CheshirePuss

I feel like that'd be justifying cause in their favor if you allowed yourself to respond. Though the rules in regards to the internet as to what dictates child like or adult like behavior is murkier than the pope's pits on a summer day

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When someone pulls you a child or kid card it usually the case they don't have a argument to stand on a retort those lines which mean nothing in the end of it all live your life I say.

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Originally Posted by Seraphix2407

My point. I work 6-10 hours a day from 4-6 times a week including 2-3 hours gym after work. I'm there to have fun, it's not fun to baby sit people personaly. Especially when a person is old as me or even older and can't seem to respect people. I do agree with what you say, I don't mind. However, respect goes both ways and when people sit on their ass and act like they are kids, no, just no.

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I never said those people weren't disrespectful to waste my time. I just said I don't let it bother me, because in the end, if I do, the only person it affects is me. So why would I put myself through MORE torture by being angry about silly disrespectful lazy players? Just shrug and move on, you'll be a much happier person.

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Originally Posted by Werhusky

Math tells me 100% is maximum how can you give always 110%?

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Use a balance card on yourself?

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Originally Posted by DarkmoonVael

Use a balance card on yourself?

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Giving 100% is using all of your skills to their maximum effect. Putting balance on a healer instead of one of the dps is only 80-85% at best.

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Originally Posted by MaeIsMean

I never said those people weren't disrespectful to waste my time. I just said I don't let it bother me, because in the end, if I do, the only person it affects is me. So why would I put myself through MORE torture by being angry about silly disrespectful lazy players? Just shrug and move on, you'll be a much happier person.

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But then people call me elitist for not bothering. Meh.

Not bothering with what?

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Originally Posted by MaeIsMean

Not bothering with what?

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You said this:

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Originally Posted by MaeIsMean

I never said those people weren't disrespectful to waste my time. I just said I don't let it bother me, because in the end, if I do, the only person it affects is me. So why would I put myself through MORE torture by being angry about silly disrespectful lazy players? Just shrug and move on, you'll be a much happier person.

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If you ever read my old post in this thread, I'm all up for helping people. If I leave because I clearly state someone is lazy or just a burden to the group, they will call me elitist, asshole etc? Want proof? Sure I'll start from today and post them directely in here just for you. I do agree with what you said, it only effects me, however it does effect me AGAIN if I just leave and they will have some sort of attitude. Many times I state in group things could be done better because we clearly cant kill things in a farm group etc. Or when I do roulettes, I don't expect elite level of playstyle, but I expect somewhat a decent knowledge of class. But it's fine, I have to stop argue or try to talk to people (some people in here not everyone) how I feel on this issue, because it will be on a wheel 24-7 of the same thing again and again.

Bad people will stay bad people if they need help, why should I help? It bothers me right? So I should just ignore it. You don't seem to get the problem, many does get help and just decline it. Many in here say reach a hand out, give them advice etc, it wont work when they are in denial or when people preach that it's all a game (which it is) but however, if you gonna play for yourself do that shit on your own and don't screw people over because you have a selfish mind.

Well if I could solo a primal (ex) or a dungeon hard as a squishy dps summoner I would. That's not an option. Ok. Now that's out of the way let me point something out that square did that most other mmo's haven't. They required combo skills of almost every single class to do max damage or heals. A realm primarily reserved for rogues, occasionally for tanks, those sort of class in other mmos. I've never played a mage where I had to throw down combos just to get a skill to activate to use. This is literally the first mmo in my 20 years or so of playing mmos where almost every class has at least one skill that requires a combo for it to be usable. In my main's case it's aetherflow, 3 button combo of aetherflow damage effects, then bahamut infusion skill and ruin 3 spam.

Secondly combined mechanics here. Most bosses spam aoes, lines of damage, debuffs, that are designed to keep dps down. By forcing the dps to keep on the move. The dps that can move not a big deal. Casters and the like this hampers the dps dealt. Same applies to heals of course.

So my summary. Mechanics combined with systems that are new take even experience mmo players out of their comfort zones. I didn't find out about the combo skill required for my dps till I was high leveled and it took some getting used to. My dps dropped like a rock till I learned to go bahamut every fight just about. So it's not just newbies. It's the design of things to a large degree. Granted there are some newbies that are everything you claim not gonna argue that. There's always slackers looking for easy loot, hand out, etc. But overall the community I've seen at least on goblin doesn't support that as a whole.

When ever I hear about people screaming about wasting time cause someone is bad I just think " Well what did you expect? That everyone would be on your time table? Or that everyone will be on YOUR expectations of what is being good and not lazy?" I've seen many people of various skill sets in many dungeons no fuck that in many GAMES and all I have to say is, there's no system that can put in place to fix it. You just can't expect that everyone will play to your expectations. It'll NEVER happen that way. If the group is that bad and it pisses you off that bad.. LEAVE. That's pretty much your best option and try again. Or look for people in party finder. Asking a company who wants everyone's money to shut down a good part of their player base is NEVER going to happen.

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Originally Posted by Seraphix2407

Bad people will stay bad people if they need help, why should I help? It bothers me right? So I should just ignore it. You don't seem to get the problem, many does get help and just decline it. Many in here say reach a hand out, give them advice etc, it wont work when they are in denial or when people preach that it's all a game (which it is) but however, if you gonna play for yourself do that shit on your own and don't screw people over because you have a selfish mind.

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You just answered your own problem. You can't help people do anything; in this game or out of it unless they want to, or to learn. It's out of your hands. It always has been. Worrying about something you have no control over is a waste of time and effort. But just because they refuse to learn or are too arrogant doesn't give anyone the right to punish them in many of the various ways described. The Vote Kick System is what you use. Why someone wishes to further punish someone beyond being kicked from a group? Well that's just to stroke your own ego making you no better than the person you kicked if not worse. They don't need to be further penalized. It doesn't teach them anything being vote kicked doesn't. Are you insane? Why? WHY? Do you feel better knowing someone somewhere on the planet is worse off than you and you're the one who fucked them?
That doesn't accomplish anything savory.

That's some real negative energy right there and maybe you need to check your own back yard because it sounds like you're just a disgruntled cop wanting to step on someones neck because you have a badge and that's somehow your job today. Giving players the ability to penalize players on a whim is asking for people to abuse other players just because you had a bad day at work, or the Ninja didn't move out of an AOE and died. Unbearably horrible players are few and far between, and I've played since 1.0. This isn't some RMT messaging you 5-30 times a day kind of annoyance that's running rampant across the nation.

If people really wanted others to change it's not by Yelling at them, slapping their hands away from the cookie jar, telling them they suck, or reducing their rewards. It's by allowing them the chance to figure out for themselves that what they're doing isn't correct. No one wakes up one day after being yelled at by strangers on the internet, or being penalized in a Duty Finder and says to themselves "I can't even work a dick in a glory hole, my father was right, I am useless" and suddenly they start listening to people. No... NO. They eat plates of shit for days, weeks, hell maybe months until they decide to LEARN and get better. Otherwise eventually they'll hit a wall societally, and through skill in and out of game.
If they truly enjoy playing this game then they will figure it out. If they can't they'll probably get rid of themselves.

TLDR; Real change only happens when you want it to happen. You can't force that on anyone. Anyone looking to force that on someone is equally at fault. You can't just force your ideals on people and expect everyone to be receptive. That's arrogant.

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Originally Posted by Seraphix2407

You said this:


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If you ever read my old post in this thread, I'm all up for helping people. If I leave because I clearly state someone is lazy or just a burden to the group, they will call me elitist, asshole etc? Want proof? Sure I'll start from today and post them directely in here just for you. I do agree with what you said, it only effects me, however it does effect me AGAIN if I just leave and they will have some sort of attitude. Many times I state in group things could be done better because we clearly cant kill things in a farm group etc. Or when I do roulettes, I don't expect elite level of playstyle, but I expect somewhat a decent knowledge of class. But it's fine, I have to stop argue or try to talk to people (some people in here not everyone) how I feel on this issue, because it will be on a wheel 24-7 of the same thing again and again.

Bad people will stay bad people if they need help, why should I help? It bothers me right? So I should just ignore it. You don't seem to get the problem, many does get help and just decline it. Many in here say reach a hand out, give them advice etc, it wont work when they are in denial or when people preach that it's all a game (which it is) but however, if you gonna play for yourself do that shit on your own and don't screw people over because you have a selfish mind.

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Ok, again. You are misunderstanding me. I never said anything about helping these "bads" or leaving in the middle of a dungeon. I just said to not get so emotional about it. "Bads" are out there. You can do your best to avoid them, but if you're doing roulette, or joining groups with strangers, you are bound to run into them eventually. If they really get you so angry that you can't function, then don't do things that will put you in that situation. But if you're going to choose to do roulettes, you're gonna get "bads." And if you are going to get all riled up and angry about it, all you're gonna change is your own mood, cuz the "bad" doesn't give a crap what you say, and the others will only either think you're being pushy (if you're rude about "helping") or that you're wasting your time.

So basically, when you get a "bad", do your best to compensate, get through the dungeon, be nice to the not-bads, and be happy that you got your tomes or gear to desynth/turn in for GC seals. Complaining only serves to ruin your further enjoyment of the game, because no one else will be affected.

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Originally Posted by Kaeoni

TLDR; Real change only happens when you want it to happen. You can't force that on anyone. Anyone looking to force that on someone is equally at fault. You can't just force your ideals on people and expect everyone to be receptive. That's arrogant.

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Ofc I wont force anyone, I only help if I feel they need it. If they don't accept it's fine because then I wont even help with their clear either. Times when I do that, I've been called asshlole, elitist, go figure.

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Originally Posted by Seraphix2407

Ofc I wont force anyone, I only help if I feel they need it. If they don't accept it's fine because then I wont even help with their clear either. Times when I do that, I've been called asshlole, elitist, go figure.

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Because that's kind of an asshole move. "You won't accept my advice? Peace out, bitches, I am not sticking around if you won't listen to me."

Run with friends... obviously this is your problem.

If you arent up to teaching people LIKE A MENTOR... then you should not flag as one.

Mentoring is about patience and understanding. If you cant get through to them then that is your failure.

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Originally Posted by MaeIsMean

Because that's kind of an asshole move. "You won't accept my advice? Peace out, bitches, I am not sticking around if you won't listen to me."

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Then you see my point then. You told me to ignore people that are bad and move on, because it's wasting my energy and I should use it on something else. Give me 3 reasons why I should stay for a group when they have no improvement, I'm eager to hear.

Ps, to the guy up there, have you seen mentors? 99% doesn't know how to play the game.

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Originally Posted by MaeIsMean

Because that's kind of an asshole move. "You won't accept my advice? Peace out, bitches, I am not sticking around if you won't listen to me."

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How is refusing to carry someone an asshole move?

If the players who want to ignore the advice can ignore it. Why couldn't they be ignored as well? Nobody is getting paid for carrying and as such nobody should be expected to do so. (unless of course they are being paid for the carry in some form)

The issue is that too many of us are nice enough to ignore the bad play instead of dealing with it, which eventually leads to players getting fed up with it and starting to be less compassionate.

While the bad play is supported and almost without any form of consequences, the players who dare to desire some sort of improvement are being labeled "elitists". The thing is, most of the elitists perceived by this community aren't elitists by choice, the lack of support when it comes to seeking improvement of the player base makes them elitists and it forces them to eventually become more extremist in their opinions than they would have been otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

The thing is, most of the elitists perceived by this community aren't elitists by choice...

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I can relate to this. I tell my girlfriend that she's awful at healing and should stick to tanking, which she does well. Often people only care that I'm somehow preventing her from playing how she wants... and not that she doesn't understand how to use a shield or regen, that she has 300ms latency, or that she can't stance dance at all because she's several seconds behind the rest of the group... I tried explaining predictive healing to her and got, "I play this job for fun. My friends don't care if I'm bad, and think I should play whatever I want regardless of what you think." How does one even argue with that? If you don't carry them, someone else will, and if you are genuinely trying to help them you're just an elitist jerk because you think you're better than them or some nonsense.

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Originally Posted by AnaviAnael

What I took from the OP was he was talking about people who are blatant in their IDGAF mentality. What he said didn't strike me as "I expect everyone to be perfect and put forth a Savage level performance," but rather, "I expect people to put in an effort."

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Thank you. Perhaps I read too much into it.

After that first dungeon I felt really down because I couldn't live up to my own expectations. I kept worrying about what the other person in the group might have thought of me.
When I saw many posts like "At level 60 everyone should know how to play their job.", I felt like it can be a little unrealistic in some cases.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

How is refusing to carry someone an asshole move?
While the bad play is supported and almost without any form of consequences, the players who dare to desire some sort of improvement are being labeled "elitists". The thing is, most of the elitists perceived by this community aren't elitists by choice, the lack of support when it comes to seeking improvement of the player base makes them elitists and it forces them to eventually become more extremist in their opinions than they would have been otherwise.

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I could honestly not said it any better, you hit spot on. This is excaxctly how I feel. If people gonna keep wipe because they think it's fun and ignore the fact they are the ones being bad and wipe a party aka ignoring the 7 other players, why shouldn't I ignore bad players? If you want a carry better pay me gil then.

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Originally Posted by FinaSel

Thank you. Perhaps I read too much into it.

After that first dungeon I felt really down because I couldn't live up to my own expectations. I kept worrying about what the other person in the group might have thought of me.
When I saw many posts like "At level 60 everyone should know how to play their job.", I felt like it can be a little unrealistic in some cases.

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I know how you feel. I have poor vision (I have to repeat that a lot), and it makes me paranoid when I make mistakes. The only thing you can do is study up about your job, do extra research about how dungeons and fights work, and just keep pushing along hoping you're doing better each attempt. It is an unrealistic expectation that everyone should play to some absurd standard, but that doesn't mean you should throw in the towel and completely dismiss them either.

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Originally Posted by Kerii

"I play this job for fun. My friends don't care if I'm bad, and think I should play whatever I want regardless of what you think." How does one even argue with that?

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That's exactly it. You can't argue with that because it makes sense. Everybody should be allowed to play the way they want to play.

Yet this doesn't work well when everybody is rewarded the same no matter how much they contribute and when players who don't care are put in groups with players who do care.

Forcing players to change their play-style by suggestions is not going to work. The system has to be tuned so that they want to change it - like the individual rewards instead of group ones as has been mentioned. Unless players see that they are losing something by being bad they are not going to consider "wasting time" to get better.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

That's exactly it. You can't argue with that because it makes sense. Everybody should be allowed to play the way they want to play.

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It literally makes zero sense.

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Originally Posted by FinaSel

Thank you. Perhaps I read too much into it.

After that first dungeon I felt really down because I couldn't live up to my own expectations. I kept worrying about what the other person in the group might have thought of me.
When I saw many posts like "At level 60 everyone should know how to play their job.", I felt like it can be a little unrealistic in some cases.

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It'll vary from player to player. I mean honestly, is there a good reason to not use abilties like BotD or enochian at level 60? Just using it gives a damage buff (and in the case of DRG, combo extensions for better TP effiency and overall more dps). I can say at least on my end, people by the time they hit 60 should at least have the fundamentals of the game down, such as combos, basic job mechanics (including umbral/astral for BLM and how your III spells work in that regard), and not standing in AoE.

It's astounding how people justify their deaths in Nidhogg normal as "being new to the fight"...when their deaths were from standing in the telegraphed horrid roars and hot tails...you're not new to the game.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

It literally makes zero sense.

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It makes sense in the regard that it is just a game and games are played to have fun or to get other sorts of entertainment, satisfaction.

What doesn't make sense is forcing your fun on a group of people who are not like-minded and here comes the disparity - Forcing others to carry you is easily done, while forcing others to play better almost impossible and on top of that punishable by the harassment clause or condemned by the social justice league.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

It makes sense in the regard that it is just a game and games are played to have fun or to get other sorts of entertainment, satisfaction.

What doesn't make sense is forcing your fun on a group of people who are not like-minded and here comes the disparity - Forcing others to carry you is easily done, while forcing others to play better almost impossible and on top of that punishable by the harassment clause or condemned by the social justice league.

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It is like playing any game, if a person is not playing properly to the detriment of the fun of those around them, then that isn't cool.

Imagine playing Pictionary and someone draws a picture of a windmill, yet the card said to draw a picture of a waterfall. They just laugh it off and say hey whatever, I'm playing the way I want. Well..the way you want is wrong.

Imagine I went into a party as a SCH and pulled everything and refused to heal or summon my pet and said, I play to have fun and this is how I have fun.

There are 1000's of situations where "I play how I want" doesn't make sense, because it goes against the pre-established rules that either set formally by the game developers or informally by the game community. It's disrespectful, and not how one should conduct them-self in an environment with others.

The second half of your post doesn't make sense, I never suggested I am forcing my way on anyone. The thread is about people who refuse to play their class the way the game is intended to be played.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

How is refusing to carry someone an asshole move?

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I guess it depends on your perspective. I'm pretty casual, so I don't dare touch my toes into savage zones, because it's not my thing. I could perform well in them if i chose, I am not unskilled at all, I just don't really have the time. But if I am doing a DF, and my tank happens to be a badly programmed bot (has happened), I don't tell him to get better or I'll leave. I just laugh with the other people in the group about how ridiculous he is, and get the dungeon done in spite of it. If he was truly being a detriment, we would have kicked him, laughed at him, and either disbanded or waited for a replacement to finish. I can see if it was harder content and someone is being lazy/uncooperative, but there are tools for dealing with that that don't involve "offering help and leaving if they don't take it." I dunno. To me, you either want to help or you don't, but you don't offer, then "pick up your toys and go home" when they don't accept the help.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

The second half of your post doesn't make sense, I never suggested I am forcing my way on anyone. The thread is about people who refuse to play their class the way the game is intended to be played.

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Sorry for that, of course I meant the "general" you as an example.

The game is intended to be played in positive environment. The better players help the less good players and such. The failure is that the perception isn't "better players should help the less good players to improve" but instead the community supports "the better players should carry the less good players". The fun of individuals being more important than fun of the group. My second half of the post was pointing out that the players who want to play the game "as it is intended" (in the sense you mean it) are at disadvantage because the ToS and even systems like leave penalties support the players who don't want to play it "as intended" (in the sense you mean it).

Example:

You get a person seeking carry in your group.

1) You can vote kick them and fail at it while being kicked yourself = punishment
2) You can vote kick them, fail at it and being stuck with the group = punishment
3) You can vote kick them, fail at it and leave while getting the penalty = punishment
4) You can try to advise the person, while probably getting shouted at for wasting even more time of another party member = punishment
5) You can try to advise the person, while probably getting shouted at by someone who has to meet their daily white knight quota = punishment
6) You can try to advise the person, while probably being ignored = as well "punishment"

In most cases the person getting punished for the bad play is the person who is trying to deal with it instead of the one doing it.

There are times like what the OP says,

tho regarding taking the advice probably goes both ways.
I've seen people sound pushy as hell and like complete a-holes.
If they are neglecting to take advice properly, then you can say that there are always people that are neglecting to be courteous in giving said advice too, especially when they want the advice taken.

i try to be usually more subtle about advice, most pple tend to take it better when you offer them in ways that are more like:
"it might work better if...."
"when my friend runs this, they say its easier if you...."

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Originally Posted by VeroNork

I was just in Weeping City with you. MT died on the 2nd boss due to Hell Wind, and I had aggro on the boss for roughly 20 seconds before dying from no heals. Tell me why in that entire time you couldn't pull hate off/cover a not even full geared monk that was barely getting any positionals due to face tanking, nor having any cds up.

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Lotta reason and is more like 10 sec at most but enough to slaughter u since u probably had less than 1k and out heals were pretty slow.

If someone wishes to MT Imma do DPS, which means Sword oath, at the time of the poor WAR's death I finsihed my combo, no enimity generation in Sword oath for at least a GCD, I wasnt anywhere near the hate list which mean I need shield oath, another GCD on top of that the time it takes to provoke and deal the nessessary dmg to keep hate requires minimum 5sec. As for cover my priority was getting aggro not saving you from a simple auto attack which a healer coulda kept you up for at least 2-3 GCD's. If you died I'm sry but my priority was reestablishing aggro and position not protecting someone. Had I protected you I would of needed 2-3 sec to figure out which charcter boss was attacking select them cover and switch back. Cover macros are terrible to use and dont always work due to macros not allowed to be qued up in a rotation.

From what I've read on this thread, the (reasonable) general objection to the OP's argument is that we do not, and cannot know the situation of the other players, or the reason behind their poor play. This is true. However, this does not magically make this complete lack of ability/willingness/care something to encourage. Do not fall into the fallacy of "we play this game to get away from life!". As soon as you play with other people you do not know, 'life' has been introduced to the game, along with it's expectations. If you play solely with your friends (who share your mindset) or just solo, then yes, you can 'escape' with this game. That is the sole exception.

I've seen the argument tossed around on this thread "It's a game and they pay just like everyone else; let them play how they want." Let me pose a scenario to you, with the same premise. In this scenario everyone is going to play paintball at a course. Everyone pays to enter and play. Yet there are rules to follow; if you're shot, you're out. If you ignore this and continue to play under the premise "I paid just like everyone else, so I can play how I want", chances are you will be kicked from the game. If you continue to do this, you may well be ejected from the course permanently. The point is that yes, while you do pay just like everyone else, there are rules, spoken and unspoken, that are in play whenever you play with others. If you are playing solo, you can do whatever you want, but as soon as others are introduced, this idea falls flat.

Another argument I've seen is that some people simply cannot play effectively due to mental or physical ailments. This is true, yet the unfortunate truth is, you cannot cater to everyone; sorry if you don't like to hear this (I don't like saying it) but this is a fact of life. Catering to the lowest possible denominator means you are screwing over the vast majority for the few. This has been done several times in real-life scenarios, and every single time it has failed spectacularly. A perfect example of this would be the "No Child Left Behind Act". For those who are not familiar with this, this was an act passed by the United States Congress; the premise and purpose of this act was to close the achievement gap in school children via standardized testing. With this act, public school funding was dependent upon the percentage of students who passed this standardized testing; the more that passed, the better your funding...and vice-versa. This was an act that catered and was aimed at the 'lowest-denominator' in schools; aka the children with the worst grades. A lofty and noble cause. It was also an incredibly naive one; schools almost universally focused upon the curriculum of these standardized tests, neglecting all else. Students who were above average, and even those who were average, suddenly found themselves....bored. Unchallenged. Interestingly enough, if you look up the statistics for child ADD, you'll find that cases for this suddenly skyrocketed after the implementation. A child locked in a room having the teacher drone on about subjects they've already been over because one or two did not understand (or didn't care)....gee I wonder why they got antsy. Needless to say, the act was a massive failure, and has since been delegated to the individual states on how they would implement it.

The point here is simple; while wanting to make content that appeals to everyone by making it so that even the most disabled can play is a nice concept, it is quite simply not a realistic one; by doing so you alienate most others. Is it fair? No. Is it nice? No. Have we found a way to make everyone happy, even the fringes? No. Growing up I wanted to be a fighter pilot; friggin looked forward to it. 18 and I went to the Air Force recruiter and told him just that. The recruiter looked up, saw that I was very tall (6' 4") and simply said "Sorry kid, you're too tall. You wouldn't fit in the cockpit even if you did get into the program." And that was it. Was it through no fault of my own? Nope. But that didn't mean I'd sit there and demand that they made those cockpits bigger so they could cater to my wants. Which is essentially what people are arguing for here. Quite frankly, unless you can show me that a large majority of the playerbase of this game are all physically/mentally disable to a high extent, then this idea is logically unsound. I wish it did work like that. But it doesn't; that's life, and this is an MMO.

I agree with Aarik, as soon as you start to play with other people you need to start being thoughtful of others. Not everyone in the MMORPG will have your sense of humour or your sense of fun. Some people have fun by testing themselves by always playing as hard as they can; while others just like to bum around a joke about everything.

Treat others how they would expect to be treated. I learned that in Primary school, it's a shame not more people follow that.

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Originally Posted by Chiramu

I agree with Aarik, as soon as you start to play with other people you need to start being thoughtful of others. Not everyone in the MMORPG will have your sense of humour or your sense of fun. Some people have fun by testing themselves by always playing as hard as they can; while others just like to bum around a joke about everything.

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Right, it's a two way street. Don't be a douche to someone because they aren't doing as well as you'd like. But don't be a lazy sod who can't bring yourself to do more than mash 1 2 3 (if even that). And also, don't assume the reasons that people behave like they do. Maybe someone left a dungeon with a "bad" in it because they only had a short time before they had to log, and in other circumstances would have stuck it out. Maybe someone is performing badly because their kid just ran up with a bloody mouth because his tooth "fell out" (with his help lol). Just live and let live.

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Originally Posted by Chiramu

Treat others how they would expect to be treated. I learned that in Primary school, it's a shame not more people follow that.

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This pretty much. Like I said, I don't mind spending time helping people or do whatever they find fun in the game, I'm willing to try. Many people on my server can vouch for it easily, besides, I tolerate if people aren't the best, because they don't have to. But if they try really good, they get my respect, however if they are there unwilling to get better,especially in a bad way, I would never give them my respect. First of all I'm there to help and it's my time I'm using to help them. Show me respect by trying your best, because if you don't you kinda do waste my time. It's like my friends ask me and my fc to help them for clears since they know fight, once we go inside they die 24-7, this is where I put my foot down and say they have to train to get better. When they do get better, with or without my help, I'll go in there again :)

Paintball analogy doesn't fit IMO. You're talking about breaking rules of game (SE's rules), while the thread is more about the social contract among players which you can't really enforce besides kicking and blacklisting.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

Paintball analogy doesn't fit IMO. You're talking about breaking rules of game (SE's rules), while the thread is more about the social contract among players which you can't really enforce besides kicking and blacklisting.

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The analogy does fit, but I'll add onto it to make it more clear; some paintball courses do not have actual rules set by the business other than ones for people's safety (I've been to a few). In these, the players are the ones to make the rules for each situation, and they are also the ones to enforce them (within the safe-rules set by the establishment). Once again, you can choose not to follow the rules, but you do so understanding that the other players may not put up with it. I've only seen some dude deliberately ignore the rules once; he was called out by several people and continued to ignore them. The result; everyone turned on him and turned his torso into a rainbow until he called out. So once again, yes you can ignore the rules, but you run the risk of consequences by doing so.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

1) You can vote kick them and fail at it while being kicked yourself = punishment.

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Had this happen and I can definitely say it's not punishment. Often you find bad players in groups (birds of a feather etc) and I've called someone out on absolutely abysmal performance, rotation etc. Only to find out the others queued with them. So I get kicked, requeue, and finish the roulette faster than they probably did, and often with much less headache. That's a win in my book.

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Originally Posted by MayleeMorningstar

...
or that some people have 10 thumbs when holding a hammer.
...

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Ten thumbs?!

Which one am I supposed to squish?