3.3 Hinderences

I just had a 17 min pug expert run (that dragon thingy) with ninja and mch as dds, which isnt even the best setup

they are as easy as all other lvl 60 dungeons imo

Not to be rude... but if you're so dissatisfied with the game why make a flounce post on the forums? For a game you unsubbed from you seem to care an awful lot.
I mean, if you're so over it there's no need to complain on the forums how "hard" it is right?

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Not to be rude... but if you're so dissatisfied with the game why make a flounce post on the forums? For a game you unsubbed from you seem to care an awful lot.
I mean, if you're so over it there's no need to complain on the forums how "hard" it is right?

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Because unlike what a lot of white knighters seem to think, negative feedback is important too.

I also was not particularly dissatisfied with the game until very recently. I don't know about the rest of you but I don't think many people would play a game for around 2.5 years (and continue to pay monthly for it) if they didn't care about it at all

The story quest should not be any kind of block to people's progression. It's the core, the turn of the page to read the next twist in the adventure. Essentially it's the RP side, as your character walks in the world.
Now challenges should be in the game, and for those who want it - escalating to extremely difficult. This is raiding, the organizing of larger groups to tackle ever increasing challenges - not for the story, (which other games have already learnt), but for the sheer motivation in beating the challenge set by the raid level. You beat that one? Right here's the next mode of it - think you can do this then? Bring it on.

But that's not for everyone, nor should it be, not everyone has time or even mindset for raiding challenges. FFXIV isn't unique by any means in having a varied playerbase. But putting the story quest behind an impossible for some raid wall is completely wrong in my opinion. They should be separate, and could well influence the population retention if not.

Are you talking about Nidhogg? O.o

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Originally Posted by Toguro

Are you talking about Nidhogg? O.o

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Not specifically, it's thoughts on the general game approach to the story v challenging group raiding. If the devs don't separate the two, next patch could see a higher and higher walls for the story followers. Which in my opinion would be fundamentally the wrong way to go about it.

Now some people would say it's not challenging - but of course as this is part of a currently 13 page thread (plus several other threads), others are disagreeing. As I said, the story is the turn of the page in the book, which everyone should feel free to do. Stop people progressing in this and it will obviously affect their decision come the next subscription payment - that can never be good for the game.

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Originally Posted by Crescents

Not to be rude... but if you're so dissatisfied with the game why make a flounce post on the forums? For a game you unsubbed from you seem to care an awful lot.
I mean, if you're so over it there's no need to complain on the forums how "hard" it is right?

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They are entitled to give their feedback you know? I'll defend FFXIV and give it credit where it's due but no one likes a white knight. There's always shit sites like reddit if you want a hug box community where all those nasty opinions that go against the hivemind are hidden because they've been downvoted. People can have their say no matter how right or wrong they are.

I'll say 3.3 is great and shouldn't need nerfing but there's no reason to silence people either.

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Originally Posted by Teraluna

As I said, the story is the turn of the page in the book, which everyone should feel free to do. Stop people progressing in this and it will obviously affect their decision come the next subscription payment - that can never be good for the game.

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I would somewhat agree if people are still having trouble clearing this when 3.4 is around the corner, its been 3 days. Anyone complaining about the difficulty of any of the 3.3 content is literally just boohooing because they didnt beat it first try. My suggestion is to try again. They don't need to dumb the game down because a certain percent of their players are lazy and impatient.

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Originally Posted by Whocareswhatmynameis

I would somewhat agree if people are still having trouble clearing this when 3.4 is around the corner, its been 3 days. Anyone complaining about the difficulty of any of the 3.3 content is literally just boohooing because they didnt beat it first try. My suggestion is to try again. They don't need to dumb the game down because a certain percent of their players are lazy and impatient.

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Haven't got much time now:

For this current situation, I completely agree. Despite my avatar, old school raider here.
Doesn't change my thoughts on the way devs should approach story progression v other content, but as an ex-raid progression leader I shake my head at the way the mmo playerbase has changed over the years.

While I agree Final Steps is somewhat challenging, most of that challenge comes from dodging mechanics. Unless you have quite a bit of lag this shouldn't be an issue for your average player. Its when people don't dodge that we start seeing the rest of the fight go and drag on/wipe, because they died standing in the fire.

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Originally Posted by Teraluna

Haven't got much time now:

For this current situation, I completely agree. Despite my avatar, old school raider here.
Doesn't change my thoughts on the way devs should approach story progression v other content, but as an ex-raid progression leader I shake my head at the way the mmo playerbase has changed over the years.

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people have 3 months to clear it, to finish that last story quest, i think everyone can manage that

if they make him to weak, then people will just complain, that he was a fart in the wind and killing him was unsatisfying

One man's challenge is another man's cheese. Day 1 on Niddhog with everyone new couldn't do it on my first try, second try with everyone still new took us a few wipes but finally cleared it.

Decided to try it again on Day 3. First run 4 new members, finished without a wipe. Second run 5 new members, finished without a wipe. Third run, 3 new members one wipe then clear.

If I've seen anything since 3.0 is that those who really want to learn and clear actually learn very fast. Those who can't give a damn about learning will eventually get it after a while. Those who are serious about clearing content learn remarkably fast. I remember when people complain about A4 and A8 normals were hard, 2 weeks later I'd find DF groups of complete strangers who cleared them in perfect sync like they've played together for years.

I think we're giving little credit to our fellow player base at large by complaining this early that content is allegedly hard. People are already clearing Niddhog with ease, WCM with some difficulty but a lot of people ARE successful.

The dps check for Nidhogg during the adds is pretty tuned for normal. All it takes is one dps not pulling their weight for you to to fail. In case you haven't noticed, you have to kill the adds before Nidhogg does his shock wave push back. If you kill them and he immediately does it then you barely made the check.

Not saying it should be nerfed. I feel grand finale battles such as these should be challenging. Nidhogg shouldn't be a push over.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Not just one, several. Like I said, the game has gotten too tiresome to keep playing.



I actually liked these dungeons because they didn't take an hour to complete, even with "bad" parties.



It's already gotten mind-numbingly tedious. It wasn't before. That's my whole point.

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And? The patch has been out four days now and they want to scale up the difficulty slightly. Being able to faceroll even dungeons literally an hour into a patch cycle should be considered a negative. I get not wanting dungeons to easily have you sweating bullets, but I also do not want them so easy I'm falling asleep whenever I play healer. They won't take an hour in a week or two. That being said, no offense, but I have to question either you, your group or both if it actually took that long to complete any dungeon in this game. Someone wasn't pulling their weight.

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That being said, no offense, but I have to question either you, your group or both if it actually took that long to complete any dungeon in this game. Someone wasn't pulling their weight.

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I know by now it was a DPS problem.

The thing is, a lack of DPS in Antitower would not have caused you to wipe over and over.

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Originally Posted by Yasuhiro

They are entitled to give their feedback you know? I'll defend FFXIV and give it credit where it's due but no one likes a white knight. There's always shit sites like reddit if you want a hug box community where all those nasty opinions that go against the hivemind are hidden because they've been downvoted. People can have their say no matter how right or wrong they are.

I'll say 3.3 is great and shouldn't need nerfing but there's no reason to silence people either.

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Not entirely what I meant, was more directed to the nature of flounce posts not criticism of the game, it has a lot of flaws, but the difficulty of content seems to be one of the few "good" points.
Also not trying to silence anyone? just morbidly curious why someone who has unsubbed and is evidently done with the game feels the need to give feedback.

Sorry if my initial post came off antagonistic.

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Originally Posted by Crescents

Also not trying to silence anyone? just morbidly curious why someone who has unsubbed and is evidently done with the game feels the need to give feedback.

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Square Enix seems to want it when they give you a survey when you choose to unsubscribe like I did yesterday (nothing to do with state of game just got other games I'd like to not ignore). May as well provide your feedback here too and see other opinions as well.

The way I've looked at Nidhogg in particular is that he's effectively the final boss of Heavensward's story, which justifies the difficulty. In a game that encourages growth in player skill, we shouldn't be able to faceroll a boss of that status. I still stand by the opinion that Thordan's story fight was a misstep in that regard.

As for Mhach, I think the increase in difficulty is fine and people are just struggling to work through it, I recall World of Darkness being MUCH, MUCH worse at launch. As for Ozma specifically, people would have (and some still do) whined about the fact that Ozma of all encounters was a faceroll. Crying for nerfs on week 1 before giving the community time to settle into the mechanics and learn the ins and outs shows laziness and unwilling to adapt in a progression-based game. If a few weeks pass and people still find that it's absolutely unfair then you'll probably have a case, but until then just chillllllllllll.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

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Sohr
Boss 1 - Push moogles out of circles, kill tethered moogle first.
Boss 2 - Stand against wall during charge, move away if marked with purple indicator
Boss 3 - Move to a different platform when he rushes you, avoid floating ice, dont stand in the ahk morn thing.


Hullbreaker
Boss 1 - Kill adds. Kill Coeurl adds first
Boss 2 - Stand in puddles when marked, avoid the giant ice blocks.
Boss 3 - Grab an antidote from the chest if poisoned, healers esuna heavy.

That is literally every mechanic. None of those have dps checks so bad dps doesn't matter, you'll win as long as people listen. Some of the previously released dungeons have worse mechanics than that.

I did my ex again today & finished in 21 minutes. So hard omg. The healer was even new QQ why wasn't it done in 10 minutes why did we wipe on the second boss once QQ nerf plz

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SE MIGHT nerf Mcach or Final Steps or both bc they are harder for casual players & might turn people off(I personally love them) but they will NOT nerf the dungeons bc they're already the same as usual....Whatever experiences you had, they were some bad RNG DF groups in a row, not hard dungeons. Maybe run them with your friends instead.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

I know by now it was a DPS problem.

The thing is, a lack of DPS in Antitower would not have caused you to wipe over and over.

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And that speaks to arguably the poor tuning of Antitower. I know more than a few healers who complained because they barely had to pay attention to the tank's HP due to how easy the mobs were. "Bad DPS" should not be rewarded with even easier content. There comes a point where catering too heavily to the extreme casual crowd will cause a greater hindrance. Dungeons should, at the very least, make it so if you're not properly doing your rotation/hitting positionals, you will be in there for a while. That is, if you aren't in ilvl 240 gear.

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Originally Posted by RLofOBFL

SE MIGHT nerf Mcach or Final Steps or both bc they are harder for casual players & might turn people off(I personally love them) but they will NOT nerf the dungeons bc they're already the same as usual....Whatever experiences you had, they were some bad RNG DF groups in a row, not hard dungeons. Maybe run them with your friends instead.

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I very much doubt they will. It took nearly two months and people outright leaving in droves before they nerfed Steps of Faith in 2.55. And that was gating off the entirely expansion. Neither Weeping City nor Nidhogg (normal) have that problem. People just expected a faceroll and got hit with a rude awakening. They might actually have to know what they're doing. I sincerely hope that trend is here to stay.

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That is literally every mechanic. None of those have dps checks so bad dps doesn't matter, you'll win as long as people listen. Some of the previously released dungeons have worse mechanics than that.

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The run that took me an hour in particular was Sohr Khai, last boss. We kept being reduced down to a single platform (if we even made it that far), at which point people started to die because nothing was avoidable anymore.

According to everyone that I've discussed this with, that indicates a DPS problem.

You don't have to lecture me on the mechanics btw; you're preaching to the choir. Try telling all this to my DF groups.

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And that speaks to arguably the poor tuning of Antitower. I know more than a few healers who complained because they barely had to pay attention to the tank's HP due to how easy the mobs were.

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/shrug I usually tank this roulette, and I've had more than my fair share of near-deaths. Maybe not in the segments where you are forced to only fight 2-3 mobs at a time, but that's the case in nearly every dungeon. Other than that it did not feel any different from most other EX dungeons. I only used Antitower as a recent example.

If they nerf niddhogg and New 24man raid because of "casuals" pretty much sum up how lazy and not caring most of players are in community. And people say people who try their best are assholes. Last time i checked leeching and doing nothing makes you one. Square finally did something right. The fights arent even that hard and people get info handed at them like cand, yet they wont listen.

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Originally Posted by Nayout

Resume of the Thread:

QQ

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There is a reason why this post has so many likes compared to the OP, and that's because most of the community is through with "baby" content, challenging stuff makes goals, and it makes us want to stick around more.

Its strange... why do you look down on other players?
Someone says that the fight was not possible to win and you answer: "leecher", "casuals", "noob"...
Were you with him in that fight and do you know what was the problem?! Sure not.
You try to compare with your runs, but did your group have exact same gear and same jobs? Sure not.

The community doesnt become toxic because of content, its that stupid arrogant argumentation of some who think they are "better"...
Try to take what others say as fact and find solutions to help or fix it. Do not try to blame the other and say he is wrong!

White Knights... hm... why does Square Enix need them?
You are defending content but why do you need that?

There are MANY possibilities why a fight result in a wipe!
Who are you to judge that the one who said its not possible havnt given all he could?
Just because YOU cleared something, it does not mean all is fine as it is.

There is a lot that can improve the current fight without making it "easier"...
The Problem arnt even the mechanics, but its fact that we do not play a LAN game and ffxiv having a tight reaction based combat system...
I see MANY players running in right direction but not making it in time - oh, i forgot, they are all "casuals" /faceroll (or should i say: "Stop Trolling")

If someone suggest something most of the feedback is just "easier" or "harder" but thats as if we just have black and white!
You have to look at every possibilities and situations that can appear, stop your focus view and try to understand... thats all i beg!

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

Lets have a look at numbers, square enix have them and if it is needed they will nerf it, point!
Sidenote: Nidhogg is already called "Pugkiller" in public chat, thats not something "normal"

Edit: Suggestion - Stop the stupid onehit wipe mechanics *sigh*
I miss old days and can understand why players just quit frustrated beginning anew and anew... no recovery kills this game!

Edit2: One of the few bosses where you need "sprint"

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What "old days"? Because in MY old days with this game there were plenty of one hit mechanics that would wipe the party.

Normally I am all for defending players who are not as good, but c'mon. It was almost offensive at one point at how easy the normal (Hard Mode I guess for most) dungeons and trials became.

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

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I am hardly a hardcore player of this game. The only EX primal I have beaten so far is Bismarck. I haven't even set foot into Alex Savage yet. Yes, the Nidhogg fight gave me some trouble for a few wipes. But you know what people can do?

They can learn the patterns, they learn where to stand to minimize risk of getting hit by AoEs. They can learn to do better rotations. They can go and gear up if they simply can't improve in mechanics. They can find a group willing to carry them even. I know quite a few FCs who are willing to carry members through battles so long as they're not complete leeches.

Players have ways to make the fight easier. This fight has been out for ONE WEEK. If they can't clear it yet, they need to accept it and gear up a little bit, or learn the mechanics.

After the fight has been out for a while then people can start demanding nerfs instead of actually improving.

Yuki, I said "casual". I'm pretty casual too, doesnt give me the right to sit back and act like its fine to do nothing. Last time I checked this is a mmo. If you dont wanna try your best, better play offline game.

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Originally Posted by Corfish

What "old days"?

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Who said i mean FFXIV? (You can ask Square Soft if it comes to "old days")
Your argumentation reminds me of Titan 1.x where we had huge LAG and mostly players with good ping argued with "learn the patterns" or "learn where to stand before the AoE happens"...

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

Who said i mean FFXIV ?
Your argumentation reminds me of Titan 1.x where we had huge LAG and mostly players with good ping argued with "learn the patterns" or "learn where to stand before the AoE happens"...

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It's an MMO. It is impossible to completely remove the threat of lag and it is stupid to nerf a fight because some people have bad connections. That said, FFXIV has come a long way and it is much more lag free.

The fact is though, these people are almost definitely not dying because of lag. They're dying because they're not learning when to anticipate certain mechanics and thus can't move fast enough. Or they don't understand that the AoE indicators are basically worthless for determining if you were in or out of the AoE, and it's all about the cast bar.

Thats the arrogant attitude what i have meant, thats exactly why community becomes toxic!
You think you know why they die, but in reality you know nothing because it can have MANY possibilities... fact.

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

Who said i mean FFXIV? (You can ask Square Soft if it comes to "old days")
Your argumentation reminds me of Titan 1.x where we had huge LAG and mostly players with good ping argued with "learn the patterns" or "learn where to stand before the AoE happens"...

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Many old games had one shot mechanic, because it proves you need team work if there is not any, you dont even need to do anything.

I dont know how people die? Last time i checked being in aoe 247kills you

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

Thats the arrogant attitude what i have meant, thats exactly why community becomes toxic!
You think you know why they die, but in reality you know nothing because it can have MANY possibilities... fact.

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It CAN have many possibilities. And you know what? Only two (lag, and certain disabilities) are out of their control. And I highly doubt the vast majority of the players suffer from either of those.

And don't get me wrong, I try my best to get them through mechanics. I try my best to help as much as I can and I'm never rude about it. But at some point you have to look at this game's general community and just admit to yourself, "Wow, most of these players kinda suck."

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Originally Posted by Seraphix2407

Many old games had one shot mechanic, because it proves you need team work if there is not any, you dont even need to do anything.

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Thats just not true!
You have healers for a reason and many old games even tanks could fully heal if they learned the skills for it.
The key in games was how long you need for a fight. When you are well prepared you could win within some minutes oneshotting even bossmonsters depending on leveldifference (if you like that gamestyle) but if not well prepared you could recover with permahealing or even reviving in each turn (we can compare turns/rounds with cooldown of ffxiv) but when doing so you cant damage the boss which cost you time! Some of the OPTIONAL bosses who are the hardest in those games and some even were the hardest ever made i have played for hours (hell, i even liked to play days against impossible bosses who you can not kill)! As Example Omega from FFVIII i liked most, still there are many others even on MMOs... Kingdom Hearts or Star Ocean... Neverwinter Nights or other D&D games... even tabletop or MUD games...

Your argumentation with "you dont need to do anything then" is something i can not value high, sorry!
Its just not what i have experienced...

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Originally Posted by Corfish

It CAN have many possibilities. And you know what? Only two (lag, and certain disabilities) are out of their control. And I highly doubt the vast majority of the players suffer from either of those.

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And thats where you are wrong, all you see is how their character is acting on your side of the screen!
You neither see how it looks on their screen, nor how it looks outside their screen - is he playing alone, with friends, with baby in hand or talking on phone... you know NOTHING... is the weather sunny or did a thunder strike near, is he shocked or sleepy... you know NOTHING...

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Originally Posted by Seraphix2407

Many old games had one shot mechanic, because it proves you need team work if there is not any, you dont even need to do anything.

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Probably the first time I've ever seen someone say the "good old days" of gaming were easier than this game, usually they mean and want the opposite.

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

Probably the first time I've ever seen someone say the "good old days" of gaming were easier than this game, usually they mean and want the opposite.

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You mean i Said that? Sorry bit confused.

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Originally Posted by Seraphix2407

You mean i Said that? Sorry bit confused.

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No no, was just using you in the quotes. Sorry for the confusion. :(

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

No no, was just using you in the quotes. Sorry for the confusion. :(

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No worries :)

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

And thats where you are wrong, all you see is how their character is acting on your side of the screen!
You neither see how it looks on their screen, nor how it looks outside their screen - is he playing alone, with friends, with baby in hand or talking on phone... you know NOTHING... is the weather sunny or did a thunder strike near, is he shocked or sleepy... you know NOTHING...

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Why they play and keep dieing to mechanics while talking on phones? while keep messing up on mechanics with baby in hands? why doing half-hearted dps while watching netflix? or talking to friends? tbh why go in to group content when you are asleep and can't even focus? are they expecting the other to carry them? :o

Idk why people take care of their baby while playing. Wrong way to deal with things. Well bad priority.