The Illusion of Choice

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Originally Posted by Seraphix2407

Borderlands and destiny mmo? That's like saying warfare is mmo. So no.
The problem with ''choice'' you mentioned, the weapons. One of the weapons will always be better. Weapon dmg> If you lets say have ilvl 220 but raid weapon is ilvl 230 and you obtain it, you rather use that, because weapon dmg> all. That's not a choice, that's something you want/have to use.

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Interesting. Because I'm pretty sure I said it has elements that are present in mmos, not that it is a true mmo. Diablo and Borderlands all have lobbies, bank systems, raiding, trading, pvp and character builds. These are Elena that generally are found in mmos like this one we play.

As for your example using this game I roll BRD and I have the 210 relic pants and the 200 Void Ark pants, but guess which one I use, the Void Ark pants. Why? Because it has crit rate and the relic pants have a ridiculous unnecessary amount of accuracy. So for me I take the crit rate, simply because something appears to be better doesn't mean it is.

Let me explain that, just because a weapon maybe better because it has high damage doesn't mean it works in every situation, if you actual played Diablo or Borderlands in depth, you'd understand that. In those games enemies have resistances to elements and overall damage, just because you have a gun that does 500 base damage doesn't mean you'll be doing more damage. The enemy might have a weakness to poison that grants 100 extra damage, so using that poison weapon that has 250 base damage and 150 poison on this said enemy with a poison damage debuff of 100 would total out your overall damage to 550 instead of just 500 using that weapon with 500 base damage.

This game doesn't offer anything like that but gives up the option to build on our stats to a very small portion by mixing and matching gear sets. Which is where the choice of the player comes into light, you can roll a full raid set or a full relic set and that's completely fine, but you also have the choice to use all the gear out of each gear table to customize your stats. Which is what end game players have done since T5.

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Originally Posted by Pence

Maybe you're in the wrong genre? Because regardless of what anyone does it'll ALWAYS come down to 1 build.

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Not exactly. Even in the current state of the game we see this proven wrong. There IS a best raid/group comp, yet it's far from true that everyone only abides by the one. I'm kind of just reiterating what OP said, but that's a very legitimate thing to take away from the conversation.

Also, there's definitely a couple MMO's that have implemented multiple builds and maintained some semblance of balance, without "Illusion of choice". It's all about how much the developer puts into it.

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Originally Posted by Nominous

Even in the current state of the game we see this proven wrong. There IS a best raid/group comp, yet it's far from true that everyone only abides by the one.

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There is also a best rotation/playstyle which far from everyone abides to - much to the dismay of many people. I would not at all be surprised however if even our lovely ice mages had friends that take them into group content, regardless of how suboptimal their setup or play is.

I find that argument fairly weak, because it leads to the conclusion that our playstyle already is very much customizable, you only need to find people to endure your suboptimal decisions.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

There is also a best rotation/playstyle which far from everyone abides to - much to the dismay of many people. I would not at all be surprised however if even our lovely ice mages had friends that take them into group content, regardless of how suboptimal their setup or play is.

I find that argument fairly weak, because it leads to the conclusion that our playstyle already is very much customizable, you only need to find people to endure your suboptimal decisions.

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Yeah, exactly the point. OP said it first, but I definitely agree. Most of the content that's actually difficult is taken on by groups of friends (usually), and either immediately, or after some time, they'll be willing to allow you to play what Job you want to play, even if it is sub-optimal. Most content goes that way, tbh.

Not to mention, gear sets are also a choice where a BiS certainly exists, even though not everyone abides by the BiS. More people do than don't, and it's not a big deal as perhaps a sub-optimal skill build could prove, but still. Food for thought.

The next logical step for XIV is to give level 2 traits, or traits for 50-60 skills. But after that, I'm pretty worried about this strict adherence to no extra customization. Unless, of course, we end up with like 5 jobs per role or something (melee/tank/healer/ranged/mage).

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Originally Posted by Zojha

I find that argument fairly weak, because it leads to the conclusion that our playstyle already is very much customizable, you only need to find people to endure your suboptimal decisions.

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You make it sound like "suboptimal" automatically means "abysmally lower than the optimal setup"

I agree that it's difficult to create severals builds that are exactly on par but I think you can legitimately make them within 10% to each other.

It's like saying that you must endure an i170 character where you could have ended with an i175, in Expert Roulette. Or a PLD instead of a WAR...Not that big of a deal.

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Originally Posted by Ibi

Illusion of choice does not mean "Choice where one outcome is generally superior". It doesn't even mean "Choice where one outcome is optimal".

[Example of a talent set where a non-optimal choice is still a completely worthwhile choice because it requires less of the player, making it more easily maximizable/usable.]

That's a completely legitimate option that many players would likely choose to take.

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With this I agree completely, and my earlier writing probably bordered on hyperbole for at least a few classes. I should have taken a moment more to think and specify actual examples.

My issue was more in regards to abilities like Barrage and early-gear Ravager, especially near release, where there were each optimal if meeting even a single condition: whether there are multiple enemies worth killing (though this would at least depend also on their positioning in the case of Barrage), and whether you'd be able to hit for at least half the duration of your lingering ground AoE (early Ravager). (Of course, by now these have been improved in balance.) Alternatively, there are plenty of other talents that provide very close-performing choices that allow for personal decisions. It just seems odd to me when people reference the Wrath to Mist/WoD talent shift as a being done as a solution to clear-cut specs when some of the new talent trees were just as absolute or directly niche/situational (again, especially on release), the only change being that one need not make compromises for varying situations as you can always change spec between fights. Though less obvious, the earlier talent sets did have plenty of 'easier' specs, many of which I ended up outperforming 'optimal' specs with just due to their increased leniency during movement-intensive fights, etc. WoW's been pretty good about creating a sort of range of not only true 'optimal' specs but also allowances for different 'optimal difficulties'. (Admitedly, more so with the WoD style talents.)

I guess it just seems to me that combating or submitting to or dealing with an alleged 'illusion of choice' was never the aim of these changes; on the player end it was best described as taking the fat out of the burger (for better or worse), and on the development end, reducing costs. Further, many of the new talents seem more interested in adding class flavor than actual spec choice. (Not a bad thing; just not consequent to the ideology that people seem to attribute them to.)

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

This game doesn't offer anything like that but gives up the option to build on our stats to a very small portion by mixing and matching gear sets. Which is where the choice of the player comes into light, you can roll a full raid set or a full relic set and that's completely fine, but you also have the choice to use all the gear out of each gear table to customize your stats. Which is what end game players have done since T5.

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Yes it's true what end game players have done since t5, they prefer stats over the ilvl (if it does improve your dps) But when it comes to weapons, no. Never did some one pick up a less weapon dmg weapon over a weapon with less dmg on it and better stats for the class.
This is only gear and I can see and understand why. I do own the VA pants for brd and I do also own the gear from diadem, and its giving me crit and det and acc, so those are better, including the 9 dex is also great. Ive done all raids and honestly never seen some one ever pick up a weapon with less weapon dmg over the other one because it has better stats. This isn't diabolo or borderlands, you cant compare how weapons works here vs the other games. If it did something what borderlands do, then I can see why, but it doesn't. I see your point, but comparing how weapons work in this game vs borderlands isn't something you can do. The gear setup in FF14 is linear, it really is. You slightly have some choices but they aren't that great or big deal to make it unique for each players.

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Originally Posted by Seraphix2407

Yes it's true what end game players have done since t5, they prefer stats over the ilvl (if it does improve your dps) But when it comes to weapons, no. Never did some one pick up a less weapon dmg weapon over a weapon with less dmg on it and better stats for the class.

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It's mostly because WD trumps main stats, which, in turn, trump secondary stats.
BUT, we're seeing that now between Thordan weapons and Anima. Having only 5 lvl more doesn't compensate bad itemization.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

It's mostly because WD trumps main stats, which, in turn, trump secondary stats.
BUT, we're seeing that now between Thordan weapons and Anima. Having only 5 lvl more doesn't compensate bad itemization.

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For BRD and MCH the only difference is the main stats and different secondary stats. Id say thordan gun is better than the relic weapon for MCH. The ilvl 210 is still better than 205, 1 more weapon dmg and some extra stats.

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Originally Posted by Seraphix2407

For BRD and MCH the only difference is the main stats and different secondary stats. Id say thordan gun is better than the relic weapon for MCH. The ilvl 210 is still better than 205, 1 more weapon dmg and some extra stats.

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For PLD, I'm really not sure if "1 WD, 3 STR and 3 Deter" makes up for "49 Crit" between Hauteclaire and Sword Of The Heavens...because who cares about the 51 parry :p

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

because they've already started homogenizing jobs for the purpose of balance.



new jobs are cosmetic. skill trees are not.

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That's working out well for them eh? BRD > MCH
DRG > MNK when paired with BRD, and DRK.
WAR handles any situation. PLD is only wanted on physical damage, DRK for DPS as main tank or magical damage taken.

This is imbalance. Yet your not making a thread to stop new jobs so people don't have to worry about their job being unwanted. The point is to buff/nerf to where they are respectfully close enough, and all content can be cleared by every job.

Otherwise in your ideal world, fighting games should only have one character with the same exact options.

Did we forget what FUN is?

And no it's not cosmetic. Jobs ARE the skill trees in FFXIV as it stands. You want to change your style of play? Changing skills is synonymous with changing jobs to a great extent.

It's understood that customization inherently will introduce a certain amount of imbalance. But the amount of imbalance that is introduce can be controlled for—things don't need to be perfect so long as all the options are functional enough to be valid. Yes, at the highest levels of play, people are probably going to demand specific options, but that doesn't make other choices invalid outside of that environment.

Here are five off-the-cuff examples for NIN that I've been tossing around in my head, loosely inspired by the general structure of Merit Points in FFXI. Imagine that you would be able to choose three of the five.

• Death Blossom: Increase the Potency of Death Blossom by 10% (to 110). This is relatively straightforward and makes NIN somewhat more effective in dungeon environments, which have a variety of AoE situations. Their overall AoE is the lowest of all the DPS classes, so this shouldn't cause any particular imbalance.
• Huton: Increase the duration of Huton by 5 (or perhaps 10) seconds. This is less straightforward—what it mainly does is provide a little more breathing room for the opener. I've not mapped out the rotation precisely, but this would at most allow for an extra Aeolian Edge in the first minute of an encounter, as well as in any phase preceded by an unavailable boss in which you Mudra-refresh Huton. This would be a slight DPS increase over time, as you would occasionally get in an extra Aeolian Edge before needing to refresh with Armor Crush, but not a large one, as you'd just need another Armor Crush in your next minute that you didn't need before.
• Hide Increase movement speed while under the effects of Hide by 50%. This would primarily be a PvP option, for sure, one that's not likely to have any major use in high end content.
• Goad: Goad can now be self-targeted. This would likely be a common choice, but not an imbalanced one in the long run: NIN's TP management is one of the best among the melees, and in raid situations, you're probably still better off using it on another party member. The flexibility is nice, though, especially for dungeons.
• Kiss of the Spider: Apply spider venom to your weapon, increasing physical damage dealt by 20 %. Changes the additional effect for Jugulate to 30% (or some other number) Heavy. Shares a recast timer with Kiss of the Wasp and Kiss of the Viper, and cannot be used simultaneously with any other weapon poisons. Effect ends upon reuse. Duration: 10s. This is a PvP-centered talent again, but it might also have utility in certain sorts of raid encounters where Heavy is useful.

High end raiders would most likely choose the Huton extension and the Goad modification, and then have one "free" choice that might vary depending on the encounter (depending on how difficult it is to swap out your choices). PvP players would obviously want the Hide speed increase and Kiss of the Spider, and frequent dungeon-goers would love the Death Blossom choice. Since the choices are often most effective for a particular type of content, players could then decide which ones were most useful for them.

Personally, I think these sorts of things should be somewhat difficult to change, as Merit Points were in FFXI, which allowed you to change the points but required you to earn enough XP to spend the points in the new talent, but that's not necessarily required. I also think it's important to keep the choices from having a huge impact on raid performance in general, as this allows for a more careful approach to balance in that arena, which is pretty important.

Obviously, I'm no developer, and these are off the top of my head, so I'm not expecting them to be perfectly balanced or anything of that sort. They're just meant to serve as an example of the sort of customization I think they could add to this game without causing undue imbalances.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

For PLD, I'm really not sure if "1 WD, 3 STR and 3 Deter" makes up for "49 Crit" between Hauteclaire and Sword Of The Heavens...because who cares about the 51 parry :p

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It does, it wipes out the parry and the crit. Crit is RNG. Weapon dmg isnt.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

For PLD, I'm really not sure if "1 WD, 3 STR and 3 Deter" makes up for "49 Crit" between Hauteclaire and Sword Of The Heavens...because who cares about the 51 parry :p

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Generally speaking, WD is anywhere from 50-100x more important than any secondary stat, and the main stat is anywhere from 5-10x more important. In this case at the very least, 1 WD and 3 STR = 65 and is as high as 130 CRIT. So yes, "1 WD, 3 STR and 3 Deter" makes up for "49 Crit".

PLD I imagine would have higher weights for STR/WD than CRIT solely because CRIT doesn't give them anything special (such as 2x adlo shielding on SCH or bloodletter procs on BRD).

EDIT: I also wanted to add that though the first is superior, the difference is negligible. I upgraded my SMN book from 200 to 210, raising 3 WD levels among other things. I put out an awesome 10 DPS More from 1333 to 1343. If you set everything to their individual stat weights, then we are all sitting in the mid 3000's of the main stat (roughly, I am 3445 or so). So upping 1 WD 3 STR would up that a total of ~13-15 of your main stat or give you a 0.4% increase to your damage. To put 0.4% in perspective, if you do 800 DPS on your PLD, then it will up to 803.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

My issue was more in regards to abilities like Barrage and early-gear Ravager, especially near release, where there were each optimal if meeting even a single condition: whether there are multiple enemies worth killing (though this would at least depend also on their positioning in the case of Barrage), and whether you'd be able to hit for at least half the duration of your lingering ground AoE (early Ravager). (Of course, by now these have been improved in balance.)

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Yeah, fair enough, if there's a clearly superior option then that's not really a choice. As you say though, they've iterated on a lot of those kind of talents since their initial introduction to try to make sure that there really are at least two of the three options worth consideration for most situations.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I guess it just seems to me that combating or submitting to or dealing with an alleged 'illusion of choice' was never the aim of these changes; on the player end it was best described as taking the fat out of the burger (for better or worse), and on the development end, reducing costs. Further, many of the new talents seem more interested in adding class flavor than actual spec choice. (Not a bad thing; just not consequent to the ideology that people seem to attribute them to.)

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I don't know about that though. There's a blue post from Zarhym here from Cataclym's development where he indicates that removing the illusion of choice (he even uses that exact phrase earlier in the thread) was their main goal for the changes.

I do agree that balancing specs would be a ton of work, and that's a valid reason not to put them in. But Yoshi-P trying to say "We can't do specs because one of them will be stronger so no one will ever use anything else" is either disingenuous or an indication that they just don't understand how to go about it, especially when that imbalance already exists between jobs and doesn't lead to that conclusion.

crit life = best life

I'm a schola.

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Originally Posted by Critical-Limit

That's working out well for them eh? BRD > MCH
DRG > MNK when paired with BRD, and DRK.
WAR handles any situation. PLD is only wanted on physical damage, DRK for DPS as main tank or magical damage taken.

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besides PLD, the other comparisons are not huge problems. you would never kick a MNK/MCH with a good schedule/personality/skill to take a chance on random BRD/DRGs.

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Originally Posted by Critical-Limit

This is imbalance. Yet your not making a thread to stop new jobs so people don't have to worry about their job being unwanted.

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look up my character if you want. why would i make that thread when i have all jobs at 60. i'm not a "jobbist", i don't worry about jobs. if a job has a truly down period like PLD, i switch over to another.

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Originally Posted by Critical-Limit

The point is to buff/nerf to where they are respectfully close enough, and all content can be cleared by every job.

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they are respectfully close enough and all content can currently be cleared by every job. so i guess that is working out well for them.

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Originally Posted by Critical-Limit

And no it's not cosmetic. Jobs ARE the skill trees in FFXIV as it stands. You want to change your style of play? Changing skills is synonymous with changing jobs to a great extent.

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i think my original statement should more properly state, new jobs also add new cosmetics, skill trees do not.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I guess I view things differently than yourself. There are a lot more different things between jobs than cosmeitc. For example, a SMN mechanically has to manage a pet.

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in very few fights do SMN have to manage their pet. i main SCH but i play SMN quite a bit when i have to DPS. i'm just fine never doing anything more than Contagion and having Garuda following me around for Expert/Diadem/Void Ark/Hunts/Maps. and there's really 0 reason why Contagion has to be a pet ability. FFXIV SMN is a really poor excuse for a pet job.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Further, a SMN is much stronger at AoE and a BLM is much stronger single target. They play very differently mechanically and excel in different things.

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this was completely opposite before 3.0 before they nerfed Flare and took off the 4 target cap on Bane.

and isn't that the point of skill trees to make the same job play differently?

i can make the SMN rotation a BLM Skill Tree in like 30 minutes. and it would even make sense Thunder 3 = Miasma 2, Thunder 2 = Miasma 1, Thunder 1 = Bio, Scathe = Ruin, Blizzard II acts like Bane spreads all the electricity around, Blizzard III acts like Fester and drops a big damage attack, Freeze puts an AOE ice cloud that ends up acting like Shadow Flare, etc, etc.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

besides PLD, the other comparisons are not huge problems. you would never kick a MNK/MCH with a good schedule/personality/skill to take a chance on random BRD/DRGs.

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People would and have kicked certain jobs from content, due to them being underpowered. This is much more prevalent at the beginning of a tier cycle when those differences matter much more, than at the end of one (such as now).

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look up my character if you want. why would i make that thread when i have all jobs at 60. i'm not a "jobbist", i don't worry about jobs. if a job has a truly down period like PLD, i switch over to another.

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This would be great if we could gear multiple jobs more easily. As it is, your secondary job will generally be 10-30 ilvls below your main until very late in the tier cycle. That puts a major handicap on being able to use a secondary effectively (or swapping roles / jobs).

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they are respectfully close enough and all content can currently be cleared by every job. so i guess that is working out well for them.

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Indeed, they are OK (not great) at balance, so I don't understand why it's thought that they would not be able to balance specs?

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i think my original statement should more properly state, new jobs also add new cosmetics, skill trees do not.

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This is definitely not correct though. Just look at DRK owning the MT role over PLD due to their differences. MCH and BRD are identical, which is lame and often complained about (not good).

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

in very few fights do SMN have to manage their pet. i main SCH but i play SMN quite a bit when i have to DPS. i'm just fine never doing anything more than Contagion and having Garuda following me around for Expert/Diadem/Void Ark/Hunts/Maps. and there's really 0 reason why Contagion has to be a pet ability. FFXIV SMN is a really poor excuse for a pet job.

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I agree, I have mained SMN and am swapping to SCH for my static now. That said, it plays significantly differently than a BLM. I use Ifrit on Sic mostly, but positioning is important.

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this was completely opposite before 3.0 before they nerfed Flare and took off the 4 target cap on Bane.

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Indeed.

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and isn't that the point of skill trees to make the same job play differently?

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Yes, but I think the difference is scaling.

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i can make the SMN rotation a BLM Skill Tree in like 30 minutes. and it would even make sense Thunder 3 = Miasma 2, Thunder 2 = Miasma 1, Thunder 1 = Bio, Scathe = Ruin, Blizzard II acts like Bane spreads all the electricity around, Blizzard III acts like Fester and drops a big damage attack, Freeze puts an AOE ice cloud that ends up acting like Shadow Flare, etc, etc.

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If you massively change every skill. Again, this is like saying a NIN is like a PLD, because they both have physical damage.

I mean all the jobs are effectively the same, because they all do damage and all have HP - if we go to the lowest common demoninator. However, BLM and SMN play completely differently. They aren't similar with minor job differences (like how a skill tree/trait/spec system would work).

Here are a few ways in which they vary, which results in vastly different play styles and grievances. SMN has damage over time, has many low damage skills that contribute to damage, has a pet they need to consider (whether that is micro-managing, keeping alive or positioning), high mobility and low DPS impact if they miss something. BLM has weak damage over time, few high damage skills to contribute to damage, extremely low mobility and high punishment for missing a spell.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

The difference between crafting and having builds is if you don't like crafting you don't have to craft. If you don't like having to mess around with builds you still have to mess around with builds. Screwing around with builds really annoys me. I like to be about to play something without relying on a spread sheet and a calculator to figure out what works. If I need to rely on third party sites to figure out the build I need then that is worse. In my view if the game build system is complicated enough that you cant intuitively figure out what you need for a reliable build in the game itself without having to resort to google then the game is broken.

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Hey, I liked your response, as it is a perfect argument to my note on crafting. How would you feel if they added customization, but also added a default automatic build? This would allow people to customize if they wish, or they could hit a tickbox that automatically fills in the traits as they level for a build chosen by the development team?

Alternatively, the default build could be crowd-sourced. As in, it defaults to what the majority of players are using. So if people discovered a good build, shared it online, most people copied it - then new players would automatically get that build if they opted for the default.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Hey, I liked your response, as it is a perfect argument to my note on crafting. How would you feel if they added customization, but also added a default automatic build? This would allow people to customize if they wish, or they could hit a tickbox that automatically fills in the traits as they level for a build chosen by the development team?

Alternatively, the default build could be crowd-sourced. As in, it defaults to what the majority of players are using. So if people discovered a good build, shared it online, most people copied it - then new players would automatically get that build if they opted for the default.

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Honestly, I really just don't like having to worry about builds much like Belhi (and good heavens I loathe forced skill resets for when they make adjustments...) so that may color this some, but I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here and say that while this could be a good thing in theory it sounds far, far too much like it could end up being a massive piece of 'troll bait' to me.

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Originally Posted by Malzian

Honestly, I really just don't like having to worry about builds

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If you don't want to worry about builds, you'll just follow one of the million guides over the internet telling you what the perfect build is.

The "illusion of choice" is a philosophical metaphor... It's funny you use it to apply to this game when there are many people that believe that there is no choice in real life.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism

It's a interesting read. But of course, it would apply easier to a MMO than to real life (as which the metaphor was designed for). In real life, it would be like, you could have only made one decision for any particular situation and if you redid it, you'd pick the same thing every time. In a MMO, it's even more narrow, often there are just flavors of the same thing. It's by design actually. It's generally what people want, otherwise, not everyone would be considered "equal".

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

If you don't want to worry about builds, you'll just follow one of the million guides over the internet telling you what the perfect build is.

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First off, I'm sure you mean 'mathematically perfect build', because in a system like that there is no 'perfect build' that will suit every player. But then, now here's the thing... if there is a perfect build out there that suits everyone... what's the point of having systems where you can make anything else? If you're not using the 'perfect build' then you are only ever hindering the people you are playing with and if you do that then people will call you out on it and shun you from content.

The problem with giving people these kinds of 'choices' in games isn't a mechanical one, it's not that it's an inherent problem within the system of the game but it is a sociological issue. It's the same reason why we have the 'crazy uncle' or 'crazy cat lady' archetypes. People who make a valid choice to live (or play) in a manner that is outside of what is deemed appropriate in a society will be ostracized by that society.

Yes, I don't want to have to deal with specialized builds, because ultimately it boils down to either 'you're doing it right' or 'you're doing it wrong'. Doing it one way will get you into content, doing it the other will keep you out of content. You don't even need to look very far to see this at a base level where you get the 'this composition vs that composition' argument over raids. When I play I want to be able to settle into my class and know that, beyond my gear setup, I don't have to sit and do the research or rely that someone out there is going to detail out every little thing I need to do, and I don't want to have to fix those skills when they make adjustments that change that build like every other patch if not more often.

Does it help to follow guides? Yes, looking up the things you will need as far as what gear you should have, what food you should bring and the like is one thing. But when you start putting in the variation of those skill choices it changes and suddenly it's, 'This build for this fight, this other build for the next one so go change your trees, then for the next one...' I had to do this once already in LotRO and it was hell, and I personally haven't stepped back into that game in the 2 years since I left it over that very issue.

I, for one, do not want to see XIV have to go this route, there are far better options available and I personally think that the Jobs are distinct enough as-is. I also don't want to have to worry even more about being in a DF group and wondering about what skills other players may or may not have. It's bad enough with Cross-Class skills going into a fight with a Tank-Swap mechanic and praying that the other tank knows enough to have Cross-classed Provoke on WAR/DRK if they've even taken the time to level GLD/PLD at all (yes, I have run into this problem on more than one occasion). If you're fine with this, and this is something that the devs choose to implement... which I highly doubt they ever would... then you can be free to enjoy it as much as you like, but for me in my opinion... as much as I love this game, I'll be moving on.

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Originally Posted by Malzian

First off, I'm sure you mean 'mathematically perfect build', because in a system like that there is no 'perfect build' that will suit every player. But then, now here's the thing... if there is a perfect build out there that suits everyone... what's the point of having systems where you can make anything else? If you're not using the 'perfect build' then you are only ever hindering the people you are playing with and if you do that then people will call you out on it and shun you from content.

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I don't think there has to be 1 perfect build with everything else being much worse. I think builds can tackle different strengths and weaknesses. These can be strengths and weaknesses of both the players and of the content. For example, a BLM build that is similar to now with very high damage output theoretically, but punishes greatly for movement/latency/mess ups. There could be a build that is more forgiving of those things, but has a less high output. In this sense build 1 is better theoretically and by the top-tier players, but build 2 will provide a higher damage output for the average player.

Further, if you are to suggest that having 1 optimal build is enough reason to not have builds, then what is the point in having rotations? There is one optimal rotation that is not spelled out for you in the game. You're either doing it right or doing it wrong. In this sense, wouldn't it be best to get rid of rotations and simply have 1 button that performs all of your actions for you? This would remove the choice presented of pressing skills in a different order, and then no one would be playing incorrectly any longer. For myself, I think that reasoning isn't sound and takes away from the fun of the game. The difference between the two is execution and planning. Personally, I find forethought and planning to be quite fun, and the execution to be somewhat fun.

Ultimately, I realize that this game will likely never have specs and builds. It's very unfortunate, because I find them fun. I keep trying new MMO's as they launch in hopes that they will replace FFXIV so I could enjoy this. However, each game I have tried so far has significant meta issues that are game-breaking (more-so than not having build diversity). Such as Wildstar and their interrupt meta and Blade and Soul with their lack of healers and chaotic grouped gameplay. I am strongly considering a return to WoW, but returning now doesn't make sense - I got the 100 boost and was just confused as to what was going on after not having played since Cata. I've pre-purchased Legion and may move to that come launch.

That said, as people continue to provide feedback and suggestions to the game, I'd personally like to see more well thought out counters than "This will just provide an illusion of choice /thread". I find that argument is not very sound, as is often said as if it's obvious and enough on its own. The issue really boils down to, some people enjoy that choice and some people don't.

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Originally Posted by Malzian

First off, I'm sure you mean 'mathematically perfect build', because in a system like that there is no 'perfect build' that will suit every player. But then, now here's the thing... if there is a perfect build out there that suits everyone... what's the point of having systems where you can make anything else? If you're not using the 'perfect build' then you are only ever hindering the people you are playing with and if you do that then people will call you out on it and shun you from content.

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That again...
Why ? because some builds are more fun.

And again "hindering people" is overdramatizing for everyone besides top-tier-high-end-game-world-first-parties. It's exactly why people keep playing PLD, MCH and SMN even though they can be slighty weaker...or how you can end with i160 people in the Expert Roulette instead of ilvl170...
So, in fact, for 99,99% percent of the game x playerbase, chosing a different build is not an issue.

And the best part ? Since people can level each job, they can chose to follow one optimum build for their "raid-job" and be creative with everything else for the Duty Finder.

Skills tree is a far better option to invest development time than Chocobo Racing...or chocobo breeding...or Lors Of Verminion...or Triple Triad...

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

That again...
It's exactly why people keep playing ... SMN even though they can be slighty weaker...

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What?! 0.o

After thinking about it last night, I realized SE has done this before in FFXI. This is what choice looks like though.....

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/...20151120030752

Which included massive amounts of macro gear swaps for abilities due to stat modifiers, hours upon hours of increasing weapon skills(picture desynth leveling, but your whacking rabbits and/or crabs), studying the above chart so you're prepared no matter what your class composition is in any party, and hoping your party members have done the same.

Seeing how we cannot change gear once a fight has begun, a similar system is already disregarded. Food for thought though.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Further, if you are to suggest that having 1 optimal build is enough reason to not have builds, then what is the point in having rotations? There is one optimal rotation that is not spelled out for you in the game. You're either doing it right or doing it wrong. In this sense, wouldn't it be best to get rid of rotations and simply have 1 button that performs all of your actions for you? This would remove the choice presented of pressing skills in a different order, and then no one would be playing incorrectly any longer. For myself, I think that reasoning isn't sound and takes away from the fun of the game. The difference between the two is execution and planning. Personally, I find forethought and planning to be quite fun, and the execution to be somewhat fun.

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Rotations are a bit different from builds, though. A build is something you set up before a fight and you have to adhere to within a fight and it sets the very basic structure of how your character plays. A rotation is different in that what it is intended to do is maximize the capability of the skills you have available to you at any given point in time. In all honesty, the concept of a skill rotation isn't even all that common in many previous MMOs because there are very few 'traditional' MMOs that feature a GCD for skills.

Your rotation can be changed on the fly, it can be altered for a reaction to a momentary situation so that you can perform to the best of your abilities and is inherently flexible. You can't stop in the middle of a fight and 'respec' for one mechanic or another, and even if you could you likely wouldn't because the time you spend in the interface is time you're not focused on the fight. But even in that... you have a mathematically 'best rotation', and while it is flexible within itself you will still get called out if you mess it up badly or don't do it at all per the famously mentioned 'Ice Mage' who only casts Blizzard spells.

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Originally Posted by Malzian

Rotations are a bit different from builds, though. A build is something you set up before a fight and you have to adhere to within a fight and it sets the very basic structure of how your character plays. A rotation is different in that what it is intended to do is maximize the capability of the skills you have available to you at any given point in time. In all honesty, the concept of a skill rotation isn't even all that common in many previous MMOs because there are very few 'traditional' MMOs that feature a GCD for skills.

Your rotation can be changed on the fly, it can be altered for a reaction to a momentary situation so that you can perform to the best of your abilities and is inherently flexible. You can't stop in the middle of a fight and 'respec' for one mechanic or another, and even if you could you likely wouldn't because the time you spend in the interface is time you're not focused on the fight. But even in that... you have a mathematically 'best rotation', and while it is flexible within itself you will still get called out if you mess it up badly or don't do it at all per the famously mentioned 'Ice Mage' who only casts Blizzard spells.

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Indeed, hence this part of my post, "The difference between the two is execution and planning. Personally, I find forethought and planning to be quite fun, and the execution to be somewhat fun." I get that they are different; however, the reasoning that there is "one best option" can be applied to rotations. As that doesn't mean rotations should go, there must be another reason why having builds is not desired.

i.e. You could choose a rotation of only Ice Spells as a BLM in today's game and everyone will hate you for it, or you can choose a poor build and everyone will hate you for it. Why is option one OK to have in the game and option two is not?

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Originally Posted by Iagainsti

After thinking about it last night, I realized SE has done this before in FFXI. This is what choice looks like though.....

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/...20151120030752

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That image is pretty blurry and I can't really read specifics. Is this image evidence that choice is good or bad and why/how, I am unsure?

Also, I'd like to point out that just because 1 game did customization or choice 1 way doesn't mean every game will be the exact same. There are lots of MMO's out there and the majority of them have their own systems for customization and build choice.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

SMN even though they can be slighty weaker..

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Since Warrior mitigation for trash increases per mob you pull, you should realize SMN is your best DPS friend.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

That again...
Why ? because some builds are more fun.

And again "hindering people" is overdramatizing for everyone besides top-tier-high-end-game-world-first-parties. It's exactly why people keep playing PLD, MCH and SMN even though they can be slighty weaker...or how you can end with i160 people in the Expert Roulette instead of ilvl170...
So, in fact, for 99,99% percent of the game x playerbase, chosing a different build is not an issue.

And the best part ? Since people can level each job, they can chose to follow one optimum build for their "raid-job" and be creative with everything else for the Duty Finder.

Skills tree is a far better option to invest development time than Chocobo Racing...or chocobo breeding...or Lors Of Verminion...or Triple Triad...

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You do realize that situations like this work because the only real 'choice' you have in these scenarios is your gear, right? And that the things you mention have minimum iLvl restrictions to make sure that you're not thrown into a dungeon you really couldn't handle? And that dungeons in those instances are generally tuned to work with any of the classes...?

As far as being called out only applying to 'top-tier-high-end-game-world-first-parties'... I've gotten called out and kicked from Fractal for not pulling the whole damned first room because the healer was undergeared and I was worried about heals, so don't go telling me it's not something that doesn't happen outside of World First Prog.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Indeed, hence this part of my post, "The difference between the two is execution and planning. Personally, I find forethought and planning to be quite fun, and the execution to be somewhat fun." I get that they are different; however, the reasoning that there is "one best option" can be applied to rotations. As that doesn't mean rotations should go, there must be another reason why having builds is not desired.

i.e. You could choose a rotation of only Ice Spells as a BLM in today's game and everyone will hate you for it, or you can choose a poor build and everyone will hate you for it. Why is option one OK to have in the game and option two is not?

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2 reasons: First, a bad rotation is easy to spot and usually can be something that is address -in progress-. A bad build can be as much as choosing one skill wrong and can either be quick to fix or require a lenghtly conversation and isn't something that can be altered within a dungeon.

Second: It creates artificial complexity and introduces a wild card where-in if, say, I am playing with a WHM I will always know which skills they will have at a specific level. At 60 you will always have the same skillset regardless of the rest of gear or anything else. In a build-based system there's always the possibility of 'opting out' of a skill like Benediction, or for a PLD 'opting out' of Flash.

Imagine this conversation, the first is with guaranteed skills:
"Why don't you use Flash?"
"Because I don't like using it."

Second, with possible choice:
"Why don't you use Flash?"
"Because I chose <skill x> over it."

With option 1 you can explain why a tank can be using Flash and reason them into it. With option 2... you get into DF with that and you're stuck either kicking them, leaving or dealing with no AoE emnity control. Yes, I know that with careful planning on the Dev side this wouldn't be an issue, but it's something they would have to spend an inordinate amount of time on to make sure the content they have isn't broken when the skill system comes out..... or spend time rebalancing the old content to work with the new system.

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Originally Posted by Malzian

If you're not using the 'perfect build' then you are only ever hindering the people you are playing with and if you do that then people will call you out on it and shun you from content.

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Doesn't this argument also apply to classes within the same role though? For instance, BRD has a DPS edge over MCH at this point in time. What is the point of having both BRD and MCH if one of them is always going to be mathematically superior?

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Originally Posted by Alahra

Doesn't this argument also apply to classes within the same role though? For instance, BRD has a DPS edge over MCH at this point in time. What is the point of having both BRD and MCH if one of them is always going to be mathematically superior?

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Which is, indeed, an argument that happens.

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Originally Posted by Malzian

Which is, indeed, an argument that happens.

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Just because an argument happens doesn't mean that it's a good argument.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

Just because an argument happens doesn't mean that it's a good argument.

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Yes, I agree, but just because it's not a good argument does not negate the reality that it happens. I don't agree or prescribe to that particular notion myself... But then I also don't agree with a lot of bad things people still do anyway...

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Originally Posted by Malzian

Yes, I agree, but just because it's not a good argument does not negate the reality that it happens. I don't agree or prescribe to that particular notion myself... But then I also don't agree with people ruining around shooting up places but it still happens.

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I think you're missing the point of my bringing it up though. I think it's just as invalid an argument against player customization as I think it is against classes in general.

I'm reminded of WoW where I was laughed at for years for being a holy priest when discipline was 10 times better in 80% of fights.

I'll pass. The game doesn't need this.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

I'm reminded of WoW where I was laughed at for years for being a holy priest when discipline was 10 times better in 80% of fights.

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Personally, I don't want anything approaching WoW's level of customization in Vanilla/BC. But you can still have a controlled amount of customization without introducing grievous imbalance. WoW's current talent model (or FFXI's merit points) are examples of the sorts of things that I think could work here.

The big problem in early WoW's case was an over-emphasis on talents that increased general effectiveess (DPS, HPS, or mitigation) and that's definitely not what I'm looking for in FFXIV when it comes to customization.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

I think you're missing the point of my bringing it up though. I think it's just as invalid an argument against player customization as I think it is against classes in general.

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No, I understand what you meant, and I agree in the terms you state it that it's a bad argument. However, you're comparing apples and oranges here because the difference you're talking is that if I have to choose between a BRD and a MCH I will always know how those two classes stack up because I know for the most part what each class can do. I know a BRD, regardless of gear (which you can always check), will come with a pre-determined pool of skills that will generally result in certain expectations I can make about what that BRD is potentially capable of.

However, if it's possible for two BRDs to have entirely the exact same gear set that you can see, but have a totally different set of skills at their disposal... and if I present that to you and say, 'Okay, one has a fantastic build with great skills and the other's build is complete crap, but I'm not telling you which'... well, are you just going to pick one at random and pray you get the best one? Even if you're doing some dinky little dungeon that normally you can complete in 15 min? If I told you the one with the bad build would make you take twice as long? I highly doubt most people would just grab one and go hope for the best.

Now all of this is just a player-side issue, how we as a community handle the 'choices' we're given. There's a whooole other side to the issue as well where the devs are concerned. As it stands, the devs already have a difficult time developing content that's tuned equally to all of the classes. Yes, all content can be done with all of the classes but some compositions inherently make things much, much more difficult than others. This is with the devs also knowing exactly how every single class will handle in every instance they make because those skills are pre-determined. They make decisions about this all of the time and we already see what comes from that. Throw this complexity on top of it and it's just making it even harder for the devs to tune the content appropriately to give everyone a chance and it just makes everything harder if even the devs can't be certain what skills any particular job can come into content with or without.

However, in the vein of the title of this thread it comes down to this... in order for a true skill-tree system to be effective and viable it has to be created along with content that makes any choice you make in how you distribute your skills just as effective as any other. That means that if you have 3 routes you can go down, in order to make it work so no one route is favored all routes must be equal. Route 1 must be as good as Route 2, which must be as good as Route 3. If Route 1, 2 and 3 are all essentially the same in the end... why add on the complexity of tree that only leads you to the same destination in the end? Your choice in that is an illusion... it's an aesthetic and it is artificial in its complexity because it is ultimately meaningless. If you don't make the ends equal, then one end will always be chosen and then you also really have no choice. When all routes are equal, it is just as unfulfilling as if there was only one route. When one route is superior to all others then most people will eventually move to that one and no other routes become viable unless the devs design content specifically to make you use that route... and then you end up shuffling your builds for everything you do. We do this enough with jobs as it stands, we don't need to be doing it with builds on top of jobs, as far as I'm concerned.

At this point, I think I've said all I have to say on this topic and I'm going to bow out. Have a good day.