If tank damage is now based on VIT, why do healers still have Cleric Stance?

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Originally Posted by KaitlanKela

If I could change anything, I would make it to where tanks have a similar skill that swaps VIT with STR that works identical to CS, and have everything scale of STR still.

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I like this idea, but maybe instead of VIT it should be a different stat. All fending gear would be VIT + DEF(ense) and the stance would swap defense with str. So in tank stance their damage sucks, in DPS stance their mitigation sucks. VIT would remain static. Could even have mitigation skills scale with DEF, making them fairly useless in DPS stance and improve as you gear up

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I like this idea, but maybe instead of VIT it should be a different stat. All fending gear would be VIT + DEF(ense) and the stance would swap defense with str. So in tank stance their damage sucks, in DPS stance their mitigation sucks. VIT would remain static. Could even have mitigation skills scale with DEF, making them fairly useless in DPS stance and improve as you gear up

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I agree. I was thinking that swapping VIT would do crazy things to their HP and I didn't really think that would be practical. But Defense, which affects mitigation but not HP (at least as far as I'm aware), might circumvent the issue. Thanks for pointing that out.

I think CS is actually one of the coolest things that this game brings to the table in regards to healing. It raises the skill ceiling and outside of savage raiding isn't necessarily mandatory to clear. Removing it would be a nerf to healers.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

I think CS is actually one of the coolest things that this game brings to the table in regards to healing. It raises the skill ceiling and outside of savage raiding isn't necessarily mandatory to clear. Removing it would be a nerf to healers.

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Removing and making the attack spells scale with MND instead isn't a nerf. It's just an unnecessary extra button to press to make DPS/Healing (yea in that order cause incoming damage since HW is so low) healer don't even expect to heal anymore. That that one skill cause many deaths on both sides players and mobs. If healers' at spells scaled of MND then wouldn't that encourage healer only healers to maybe try dpsing? Since there would be no need for CS.

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Originally Posted by Ranzan

Removing and making the attack spells scale with MND instead isn't a nerf. It's just an unnecessary extra button to press to make DPS/Healing (yea in that order cause incoming damage since HW is so low) healer don't even expect to heal anymore. That that one skill cause many deaths on both sides players and mobs. If healers' at spells scaled of MND then wouldn't that encourage healer only healers to maybe try dpsing? Since there would be no need for CS.

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I hate stance dancing, I do it since I want quicker roulette times as healer but I would enjoy dpsing as a whm much more if didn't have to be switching CS on and off.

I feel like taking Cleric Stance away would make healing in this game WAY too freaking easy. And I feel strongly about it. There's already NOT enough difficulty involved in the role given the sheer amount of time we can be DPSing already. It's not even HARD to stance dance. It's relatively more challenging than sitting in healing mode doing nothing half the time.

Furthermore, there's got to be SOME DPS penalty for trying to DPS on a healing role. It shouldn't be a straightforward as a DPS class. I'm all for healer DPS but if we make them too similar to DPS in terms of gameplay then we make balancing issues that need to be addressed. CS gates healer dps behind (a very moderate level of) difficulty.

This is another reason why I don't think this change to tanks (while good, because fending accessories) is the BEST way to go about this. They can now have the best of both worlds, mitigation and DPS, with no penalty at all. I can only assume that the potency of their attacks will be scaled back to make up for it, otherwise they're going to be OP.

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Originally Posted by KaitlanKela

I feel like taking Cleric Stance away would make healing in this game WAY too freaking easy.

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I can't speak for sch or ast as much I can for Whm but isn't there already a penalty for dpsing on healer? Which would be low accuracy. If you missed u lose dps and mp you could had used for healing which doesn't miss. Also u still have to manage mp to make sure u have enough to heal. Also CS screw ppl with latency spiked (it's better but still a pain). It's not adding difficulty, it just adds another step to dps.

Plus the real reason why healing is easy because the incoming damage is so low. Back when ARR came out Coils hit WAY to hard for the healer to be dpsing as much as they do now.

That's why I'm not judging this tank change until I see an Increase in incoming damage. If these extra hp are of no use this is just a tank damage nerf that will put even more pressure on healer dps and dps will get another pass yet again.

Sword Oath
Deliverance
Darkside

Skills that OP forgot to ask to remove together with Cleric Stance

As I've said, if they make healing harder I'd be behind that. But that makes your point about removing cleric stance moot, because (done properly) we wouldn't be using it anyway.

Re: the accuracy. Casters have the lowest accuracy requirements for their spells. If accuracy was meant to be the deterrant, how come our attacks still hit most of the time as a result of this. It may be a job thing, but as a SCH my DoTs will always land (the inital damage may miss, but the DoTs will tick away). And unless some screwed up a mechanic and died, I'm never out of MP - even then it normally takes two deaths until I start feeling it. I absolutely never let mana issues prevent me from DPSing.

Also, unless you're overhealing, if everyone is topped off (or really 80% because regen/embrace), even IF you miss DPSing you weren't using that mana for real healing anyway and it's a still a waste.

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Originally Posted by Felis

Sword Oath
Deliverance
Darkside

Skills that OP forgot to ask to remove together with Cleric Stance

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Sword Oath you have point somewhere but the other would mean they would lose a good amount of their respective tool kits. Cleric Stance only increase damage and doesn't lock out some of ur kit.

@Kaitlan It wouldn't be moot because still an unnecessary step to dps. If they make it harder to heal there will still be time you can dps. Stance dancing is artificial difficulty not difficulty.

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Originally Posted by KaitlanKela

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There is nothing wrong with using that time to do something else, but what annoys me is when people believe that they designed the game like this to have Healers DPS because they didn't its just a flaw in their design when it comes to fights. There doesn't need to be any fix i believe healers are not broken they are working quite well SE even said you generally may want to use Healer DPS if your "only" missing the DPS Check by a bit but don't make it seem mandatory. People just need to remember though if you see a Healer in a expert dungeon don't pressure them in DPSing it's just a Expert Dungeon nothing hard its not a raid where you need every bit of DPS to beat the check.

Hey i'm not here to argue anyway :P

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Originally Posted by Remus

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FTR, I never call my healers out for not DPSing. Kinda just assume they're uncomfortable with it and give them the benefit of the doubt.

However, I DPS when I play SCH and if someone asked me for advice I would tell them to learn to do it 10/10.

The fact that the devs don't design the fights with it in mind only means that it can be cleared without it, not that they don't expect you to do it. Most dungeons can be cleared without the use of most abilities; honestly, emnity combo + healing + dps combo + mechanics = clear on pretty much all story mode dungeons, even at entry ilvl requirements. By this definition all situational abilities are "optional." But situational abilities are 50% of every jobs given toolkit. The game IS in fact designed for characters to use situational skills to clear objectives faster. Healer DPS = situational skills.

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Originally Posted by KaitlanKela

FTR, I never call my healers out for not DPSing. Kinda just assume they're uncomfortable with it and give them the benefit of the doubt.

However, I DPS when I play SCH and if someone asked me for advice I would tell them to learn to do it 10/10.

The fact that the devs don't design the fights with it in mind only means that it can be cleared without it, not that they don't expect you to do it. Most dungeons can be cleared without the use of most abilities; honestly, emnity combo + healing + dps combo + mechanics = clear on pretty much all story mode dungeons, even at entry ilvl requirements. By this definition all situational abilities are "optional." But situational abilities are 50% of every jobs given toolkit. The game IS in fact designed for characters to use situational skills to clear objectives faster. Healer DPS = situational skills.

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TLDR Devs design content for scrubs. Don't be a scrub. ;)

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Originally Posted by Ranzan

Removing and making the attack spells scale with MND instead isn't a nerf. It's just an unnecessary extra button to press to make DPS/Healing (yea in that order cause incoming damage since HW is so low) healer don't even expect to heal anymore. That that one skill cause many deaths on both sides players and mobs. If healers' at spells scaled of MND then wouldn't that encourage healer only healers to maybe try dpsing? Since there would be no need for CS.

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Unless they adjusted the potencies of every healer attack it would be a nerf to dps as you get a bonus from CS of 10% so directly converting the Int to MND wouldn't account for that. Also there is a 20% healing decrease while in CS which is the penalty trade off. The conversion doesn't account for this either. It negates the risk reward system at play in the game.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

Unless they adjusted the potencies of every healer attack it would be a nerf to dps as you get a bonus from CS of 10% so directly converting the Int to MND wouldn't account for that. Also there is a 20% healing decrease while in CS which is the penalty trade off. The conversion doesn't account for this either. It negates the risk reward system at play in the game.

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Everytime the healer cast a damage spell he can get a debuff that decrease the healing power by 20% during the next 10 sec.

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Originally Posted by Felis

Everytime the healer cast a damage spell he can get a debuff that decrease the healing power by 20% during the next 10 sec.

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Now that would be quite the nerf.

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Originally Posted by KaitlanKela

It's not even HARD to stance dance.

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Did someone say it was?

I love the skill, but LAG screws me over some times with it.

I click to turn it off, it doesn't turn off and I don't notice in time.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

Did someone say it was?

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I guess you didn't say it was too hard. Maybe you're just lazy. Sorry. I guess I assumed you actually want to try and be good and were struggling with it.

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Originally Posted by Voltyblast

However, what I meant by "easing it up" is by making it meta: removing Cleric stance and making MND a single stat will, in essence, make it even more risky because you are no more stopped by swapping stances.

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I may be missing something here, but removing the only thing that makes DPS risky as a healer would somehow make it riskier?

So why don't they change it so BLM/SMN get healing from INT as well, so they can heal also? and maybe melee jobs can get HP from STR...there, that would be fair.

They are doing this to stop tanks from using crafted accessories, with str/vit materia, in them. cause at the moment, most tanks go full STR, for extra damage; they have so much HP already, so they opt for extra damage instead.

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Originally Posted by KaitlanKela

I guess you didn't say it was too hard. Maybe you're just lazy. Sorry. I guess I assumed you actually want to try and be good and were struggling with it.

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Guess you can't read well or maybe you were just to lazy to read my post I didn't say I didn't dps or that it was hard I said I would have more fun if didn't have to turn a move on and off.

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Originally Posted by KaitlanKela

I guess you didn't say it was too hard. Maybe you're just lazy. Sorry. I guess I assumed you actually want to try and be good and were struggling with it.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

Guess you can't read well or maybe you were just to lazy to read my post I didn't say I didn't dps or that it was hard I said I would have more fun if didn't have to turn a move on and off.

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Actually I think I read your post fine.

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Originally Posted by KaitlanKela

Actually I think I read your post fine.

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To be fair to Lexia, I think it's possible to find a skill unfun to use, and not have that equal to being lazy. In this situation, I find Cleric Stance pretty easy to use, so I am unsure what the specific problem is. Lexia, do you care to elaborate? I relate more to the distaste for things such as positional's and Enochian.

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Originally Posted by KaitlanKela

Look at you, being fair. Psh /eyeroll (/s)

I guess it's possible that I lack empathy because I don't understand. I mean, the entire GAME is turning moves on and off. If someone finds that unenjoyable, I find it hard to believe that ANY of the game is enjoyable. They may be one of those strange people who prefers real-life entertainment. Seriously, I cannot relate to that. :)

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Ugh at forum limit, I wrote up this great reply and then it erased. Now I have to remember everything I said!

I totally agree, I think Cleric Stance is the skill that makes DPSing as a healer as fun as it is. There is a certain risk factor, which makes the process more involved and strategic. It's incredibly easy to use, so it's not really about difficulty, and more about forethought and reaction times.

I wouldn't say that everything in the game is turning moves on and off to the same way that Cleric Stance is, due to its inherent risk factor. The opportunity cost can be quite high using this skill, as all of a sudden your heals are greatly diminished for at least a couple of seconds. If the tank takes a big hit, you need to be able to time Cleric Stance off and heal them quickly, or manage your pet to save their life. There are few skills in the game that have such a high risk factor/opportunity cost, where the risk in messing it up is usually equal to a slight loss in DPS, rather than a party wipe.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

To be fair to Lexia, I think it's possible to find a skill unfun to use, and not have that equal to being lazy. In this situation, I find Cleric Stance pretty easy to use, so I am unsure what the specific problem is. Lexia, do you care to elaborate? I relate more to the distaste for things such as positional's and Enochian.

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Look at you, being fair. Psh /eyeroll (/s)

I guess it's possible that I lack empathy because I don't understand. I mean, the entire GAME is turning moves on and off. If someone finds that unenjoyable, I find it hard to believe that ANY of the game is enjoyable. They may be one of those strange people who prefers real-life entertainment. Seriously, I cannot relate to that. :)

Tanks still have a tank stance and dps stance so why would they get rid of clerics stance?

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

There are few skills in the game that have such a high risk factor/opportunity cost, where the risk in messing it up is usually equal to a slight loss in DPS, rather than a party wipe.

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That may be why I find it so FUN. Healing without it is not at all intellectually taxing. The tank got hit. Heal. Two people got hit? Aoe heal. Rare situation where I should single heal everyone? Me, then tank, then DPS in terms of priority. It requires no thought after a point. CS is all about, hey, can I get some DPS in here? Is the tank gonna die? I don't think so...let's try it. Oh, they dropped a lot. Clutch heal. Or pop some cooldowns. It forces you to use your brain, and also more of those situational skills I was talking about earlier.

I could see how low-stress healing without it might be more appealing to those who are risk averse. I just don't really understand being risk adverse in a video game. Especially in this meta: 9/10 tanks are forgiving when the healer wipes because of a CS malfunction because at least you were trying.

On topic: Please don't get rid of Cleric Stance. There's the base potency bonus issue and it'd be a huge nerf to the healing role, but more than anything the challenge is fun and the skill ceiling is high and it drives me to push myself.

The only change I'd like to see made to Cleric Stance is an accuracy bonus when it's turned on.

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Originally Posted by Waliel

I may be missing something here, but removing the only thing that makes DPS risky as a healer would somehow make it riskier?

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Hmm now that I think better, I think this is more of a subjective matter: I found it more riskier to be this way since It allows me to push over the bounds, but I guess that for others it isn't...Ah well, I drop it and move on, sorry for wasting time!

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Originally Posted by KaitlanKela

I guess it's possible that I lack empathy because I don't understand.

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I don't find Cleric Stance fun but I still DPS. It's a frustrating skill because of occasional Cleric Stance lag causing double toggles and the like, and then you're locked out of healing for 10-seconds, which can be a total pain if your tank just sat in an AoE or something. It's a sort of frustration that isn't fun quite often for me. It used to bother me less before they moved most oGCD heals to potency base, as you could use them to fix other people's mistakes if things were going smoothly and you just toggled Cleric Stance prior to someone taking avoidable damage or something. Now I find it to be a lot less fun than it used to be.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

I don't find Cleric Stance fun but I still DPS. It's a frustrating skill because of occasional Cleric Stance lag causing double toggles and the like, and then you're locked out of healing for 10-seconds, which can be a total pain if your tank just sat in an AoE or something. It's a sort of frustration that isn't fun quite often for me. It used to bother me less before they moved most oGCD heals to potency base, as you could use them to fix other people's mistakes if things were going smoothly and you just toggled Cleric Stance prior to someone taking avoidable damage or something. Now I find it to be a lot less fun than it used to be.

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Simply, did you mean being a healer is not fun at all? ^^;

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Originally Posted by Fatestorm

...What, honestly, is the difference here?

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This is a super big difference, now every great tank has to use STR instead of VIT but healers never use INT instead of MND.
Suppose what base of VIT means STR is no more a concern to tanks. just like INT not a concern to healers.

So it is helping the tanks but not nerfing them! ^^;

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Originally Posted by Nicobo

Simply, did you mean being a healer is not fun at all? ^^;

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No, I still enjoy healing. I've switched to WHM from SCH in HW and I've been having fun with its new tools. There are some changes in HW that have made me enjoy healing less than I used to, though.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

No, I still enjoy healing. I've switched to WHM from SCH in HW and I've been having fun with its new tools. There are some changes in HW that have made me enjoy healing less than I used to, though.

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I see. Sorry I read "that isn't fun quite often for me" then "Now I find it to be a lot less fun than it used to be." so I got you wrong. ^^;
By the way, when I have a tank sit in aoe during big pull, I give-up DPS and just force him alive.
Sometime I think is this guy want to wipe in the first pull then give reason to rage quit for the undesired roulette dungeon?
But I am sorry, as a healer, I don't let him die ^^;

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Originally Posted by Nicobo

By the way, when I have a tank sit in aoe during big pull, I give-up DPS and just force him alive.
Sometime I think is this guy want to wipe in the first pull then give reason to rage quit for the undesired roulette dungeon?
But I am sorry, as a healer, I don't let him die ^^;

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You're misunderstanding the situation I was talking about. It wasn't a tank that is regularly standing in AoEs, but rather one that does so right after I toggle Cleric Stance on (whether it's because of lag, not paying attention, or whatever). If I've got a tank that's doing so regularly, of course I stop trying to use Cleric Stance.

Forcing tanks to wear Vit was more of a buff to healers than to tanks.

If want cleric stance altered too, that's just being greedy! :P kidding

As it stands, healers already do more damage in certain situations than actual dps. If gonna make cleric stance obsolete, then lets just make plds have all oaths at the same time, wars have defiance/deliverance both at once, and darks can just well have the grit penalty removed I guess?

But this was never about having someone trying to make sense about things right? :P

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Originally Posted by Cherie

Forcing tanks to wear Vit was more of a buff to healers than to tanks.

If want cleric stance altered too, that's just being greedy! :P kidding

As it stands, healers already do more damage in certain situations than actual dps. If gonna make cleric stance obsolete, then lets just make plds have all oaths at the same time, wars have defiance/deliverance both at once, and darks can just well have the grit penalty removed I guess?

But this was never about having someone trying to make sense about things right? :P

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that is not compareable because even if they remove cleric stance you can't make damage and heal at the same time because of the global cooldown. a tank on the other hand can deal damage and can tank the monsters at the same time, because tanking is not restricted by the gcd and you do both anyway at the same time anyway.

next time try to make sense about things please

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Originally Posted by Tint

next time try to make sense about things please

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The sass. Holy moly.

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Originally Posted by Waliel

I may be missing something here, but removing the only thing that makes DPS risky as a healer would somehow make it riskier?

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With some additional changes, yes

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Originally Posted by Felis

Everytime the healer cast a damage spell he get a debuff that decrease the healing power by 50% during the next 10 sec.

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Originally Posted by Felis

With some additional changes, yes

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That would pretty much kill all DPS.