@kaisinel, Your sentiment is correct, but your attitude is horrible and annoying. You can't just say with that "clear content, then talk to me" attitude. It sucks and doesn't bring much to the table.
Not all healers are comfortable with tanks running full slaying and you have to acknowledge it.
People seem to have the misconception of the whole STR/VIT idea. The only reason why STR is way preferred nowadays is just because tanks in general realize that they don't even need that much HP to survive. Great tanks know how much fluff damage they can take without CDs and how many CDs they need to tank tankbusters and KNOWING when those CDs will come up again for the next sets of tankbusters. I personally use mostly STR accs to a great success. But that doesn't take away the fact that the huge challenge is to MAXIMIZE your potential WHILE staying alive. That comes back to what healers you are with and not how you have always played. They are not the same, nor ever will be.
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02-01-2016, 03:27 PMSarcatica
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02-01-2016, 05:41 PMReynhartThe problem is that, with competent healers, full slaying can be "enough HP" to survive. Having a big HP pool is fine, but, since it doesn't change the damage you take or the healing you receive, in the flow of combat, it doesn't matter that much. If VIT had an impact on any of those, then the sweet spot for VIT vs STR would be far more interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcatica
Well, it won't matter at the end of the month, anyway... -
02-01-2016, 05:55 PMShurrikhanThis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
Then we'd actually have some effective choices to work from, and a stepping stone for future choices in the game, rather than further moving away from the idea of any choices whatsoever. -
02-01-2016, 06:56 PMReynhart
For me, stats should been different, and EVERY job needs more than one main stat.
First, let's talk about VIT and PIE. HP/MP pool is really a no-brainer, because most people don't care about it. So, make HP/MP tied only to your level and your job. There, done.
As I said, VIT should either reduce damage (Like a permanent Stoneskin) or increase healing received. I'd like to PIE remove in favor of some stats to boost buffs you place on the party. Let's call it Charisma (Yeah, I know, lazy name). This stat would be interesting for all jobs that grant party buff, especially for BRD and MCH.
So, tanks need STR for damage and VIT for mitigation, BRD/MCH need DEX for damage and CHA for buffs. Casters should be reaaaally low on HP pool so, they'd also need some Vit boost to help them survive unavoidable damage. Healers would need MND for healing, but also CHA to increase buff like Protect, Regen, Stoneskin, etc...
And so on...
They really need to give the game more depth, or they'll quickly reach a dead end on what diversity they can offer. -
02-01-2016, 07:25 PMVeloxBad tanks need the fluff to make sure they stay alive because we'll, they're bad. They run around in STR accessories because that's what everyone else is doing and drop like flies because they have no concept of cooldown usage. Baddies be bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyghtmarerobu
Not disagreeing with you, but the argument goes both ways. Just being fair as someone who mains both a tank and healer. -
02-01-2016, 11:33 PMAwfulI'm sorry but a lot of people do not enjoy sacrificing their tankiness to be a better DPS I only do it because It's the META Tanks are supposed to be tanks, and our support is providing the extra DPS when we can get away with it. Yes you can push it to the max, yes you can push the ceiling, that's a personal thing but I can't tell you how ass backwards it is to be playing a tank that does more DPS than actual DPS. These changes are needed because we are T-A-N-K-S I have my drg/smn/nin/mch if I want to DPS and it's a lot more fun than playing tank DPS that's for sure, I can't wait to see all these STR tanks QQing a storm because "it isn't like the old days I remember when I did AS1 and had to tell the monks/drgs to greed on accessories huehue" that's bad game design when I can't even NEED on the item that is BIS for my CLASS!! Just clear AS1 4 times in 4 weeks and get a free one....yay i'm glad I kept all my fending from Alex Savage because that's all I got since I couldn't roll need on my friggen accessories.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisinel
So if you wanna complain that this change is garbage you think the developers want tanks only to be doing 50 potency then you truly do not grasp these changes at all they're tweaking tanks for the better there's a ton who enjoy the DPS lifestyle but it's coming to an end and thank god because i'm tired of joining DF groups and having tanks not in tank stance pulling everything and dieing. Or when they pull the boss out of grit, create no hate and the DPS/heals die because they want to out DPS the other DPS in my group, people want to be tankier rather than deal more dmg than the actual damage dealers I know I do.
You can't please everyone but as soon as you change 1 thing people come at it like torches hope to see you on Feb 23rd for the big ol' change I welcome it and now for raid gear I can actually need on upgrades instead of saying "wellp I only need 1 more page so...yay?" -
02-01-2016, 11:49 PMJpec07Syz never said you did? The point of Syz' post wasn't to say that Strength tanks are inherently inferior to Vitality tanks, it was to say that the divide between them has caused more tension in the community than perhaps anything else. I've never ever seen a character of another class be berated for their choice of gear, because it's incredibly straightforward. However, for tanks, it's a no-win scenario - regardless of which set you use, you run the risk of having someone call you a bad player and tell you you're doing it wrong and need to git gud - based solely on gear. And the tension is a huge problem, because it belittles people based on gear, not on skill. Instead of berating a tank who doesn't use any cooldowns (even on big pulls), people berate tanks because they have too much HP. And that's not okay.Quote:
Originally Posted by yondaimeflash
That entire discussion, and the insult that you perceived (that wasn't there), is going away. By scaling tank AP with Vit, they're essentially uniting the two sides of the community under the same gearing goal: aggressive tanks want more Vitality because it will make them hit harder, and defensive tanks want more Vitality because it lets them soak more damage. The "choice" that everyone seems so attached to was never really there, because no matter what you "chose," it was never the right thing by other people's standards. -
02-02-2016, 12:12 AMInstrumentality
I dunno if I just got really lucky or something while playing my like 4700+ dungeons since 2.0 (almost all as a tank), but I don't think I've ever been yelled at by anyone for wearing melded or strength jewelry as a tank?
Did I just miss the memo? -
02-02-2016, 12:32 AMkensatsu
SE make this change, maybe because there was too much players arguing about Vit vs Str.
you can say you don't need all that HP.
This change is the answer for all the tank arguing about STR vs VIT for months.
Now players will arguing about this change for months i guess -
02-02-2016, 12:58 AMJpec07I've been yelled at for both. Though to be fair, I was only yelled at for my Slaying set a grand total of twice (and one of those I'm not even sure if I should count, because obvious troll was obvious). My FC healer prefers me to wear Fending most of the time in dungeons, but that's just because she is actually able to capitalize on the extra room my increased HP provides to heal more efficiently and spend more time in Cleric Stance spamming Holy (which, as I main PLD, actually makes for a lot more DPS).Quote:
Originally Posted by Instrumentality
I will say that this change is going to cheese some of A1S-A4S. With the additional 30-40% HP from full Fending, it's going to be kind of silly to see how little damage the tankbusters do by comparison. I just hope the 3.2 instances do proportionally more damage to compensate for this, or else Ex Roulette and Savage raiding are going to be incredibly boring. -
02-02-2016, 01:18 AMReynhartThey made this because mixing STR and VIT on pentamelded accessories is a real thing for tanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by kensatsu
And it costs A LOT...
...while other jobs can simply go full tome/raid gear with one stat...free. -
02-02-2016, 01:28 AMAlexiIvaniskavich
What is there to argue? SE took the easy solution and decided to give tanks the best of both worlds. Effective patch 3.2 no tank will ever have to think about balancing damage output with HP. Effective 3.2 we all get to have the most HP possible AND get the most damage possible at the exact same time. I finally get to eat my cake and still have it as well.
The point of stacking STR was to increase your damage, while you still did your job of holding emnity and surviving big hits. Desperately clinging to and crying about the loss of being a "lean" tank who could still survive encounters is petty. Good tanks have already gotten over this news. Good tanks were already prepping for this type of possibility. Good tanks are already looking at potential builds for when 3.2 arrives.
This decision, will absolutely wreck the majority of 3.0 content, with possible exception to A3s and A4s for tanks. Looking at Thordan EX as an example, a full STR (accs and stat allocation) can MT the entire fight of ThorEx. They can mitigate every single TB and the cleaves that can make things spicy during spots in the final portion of the fight. As of 3.2, I can use the exact same mitigation rotation, do the same amount of damage (most likely) and as an added bonus, go from 16k health to 21k health. Prepare for mass solo healing clears, or prepare for lazy tank buster mitigation.
One of my raid healers had this discussion with me this weekend. He made the comment that it will be much easier for him to heal my co-tank and myself after 3.2. I told him that if he didn’t think SE wasn’t going to adjust new content to absolutely crap out damage, either he is terribly mistaken, or he needs to meld accuracy on his raid gear so that he can SCH dps (or just start gearing up his NIN again). I believe that Syzygian is absolutely on point here, incoming tank damage will be severely increasing going forward. If you were a VIT tank who mitigated Heavenly Heel with just “Foresight” you are probably gonna have a bad time.
Going forward, 3.2 will mean that a good tank will be measured by their effectiveness to properly utilize cd’s and stance dance. DPS numbers will have a significantly shorter distance between floor and ceiling, but there will still be a difference. -
02-02-2016, 01:42 AMGreven
I'm glad they came up with this solution
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02-02-2016, 01:42 AMkensatsu
what to argue, maybe tank argue too much also, you can see many full slaying/full vita fighting treads.
SE try to give what players finaly want.
I think this change is like reynhart said, because of the pentameld crafting accesories, but i think it's also because of all this VIT vs STR treads, also players stated the designed tank accesories is weak.
You see a lot of tread : where players is just saying Vita is weak everywhere...
I think SE is listening to players.
Maybe too much XD
The new savage raid certainly need to be a bit more damaging now -
02-02-2016, 01:47 AMInstrumentalityHypercompressed Plasma x 2. One shot for 40k, second shot for 25k. Make it happen, SE.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jpec07
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02-02-2016, 01:58 AMStouterTaru
Dungeon trash auto-attacks one shotting dps, please look forward to it.
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02-02-2016, 02:43 AMMiniTyra
BCOB days were the best days.
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02-02-2016, 03:01 AMAlexiIvaniskavich
OK, there was a post earlier in this thread about accessories, and parry and future possible uses for STR rt side gear. I have gone through some numbers to show comparisons.
**********FULL DISCLAIMER**********
This is based upon the presently assumed stat weights for secondary stats. (as theory crafted by Dervy)
For simplicity I am treating VIT and STR as equals on damage calculations. This has been stated this will not be the case in 3.2.
For illustration purposes, I am basing this off present WAR stat weights. (.133 DET, .158 Crit, .125 SkS)
Total relative power > build type for the particular piece
Neck :
ESO+(f) 49 > parry/acc
G(f) 55.952 > crit/acc
ESO+(s) 57.702 > crit/sks
G(s) 52.586 > det/acc
Ear :
ESO+(f) 52.75 > acc/sks
G(f) 54.586 > det/parry
ESO+(s) 50.857 > acc/det
G(s) 57.809 > crit/det
Wrist :
ESO+(f) 52.857 > acc/det
G(f) 52.75 > parry/sks
ESO+(s) 51.74 > acc/crit
G(s) 56.357 > sks/det
Ring :
ESO+(f) 54.586 > det/parry
G(f) 53.74 > acc/crit
ESO+(s) 52.5 > sks/acc
G(s) 51.74 > acc/crit
Of course, SE has stated that they are reducing the amount that str effects damage, and increasing the amount that vit effects damage (to the point that VIT will be more impactful that STR). If we simply reduced the value of STR by a little over 5% (6.5% to be precise) the relative power on all (s) pieces would reduce by 3 points (I was going for simple math). This very small reduction would make fending pieces BiS for dps on every piece except for the earring and wrist by a very small margin ( .223/earring and .482/wrist)
With a miniscule reduction to the damage value on STR, even a perfect crit/det build won’t really hold up vs. a sub optimal det/parry build. The only place where a STR v VIT piece could come into question, is if the VIT piece is a acc/parry type build or acc/sks – parry/sks. Based on present gear, the largest split between these numbers is on the ESO neck piece (8.702 of damage stat). If SE puts the value of STR 19.15% lower than the value of VIT, these two pieces become equal.
While we don’t yet have exact numbers for stat weights, I feel safe in saying that SE is not going to only have placed a 6.5% difference in damage value between the two stats. I wouldn’t be surprised if the difference was at 25% or more, just to completely squelch any future thought of using str on a tank. -
02-02-2016, 03:08 AMkaylemick
So... Are we going to get an NPC to exchange our strength accessories for some vitality ones? I don't want to waste the esoterics and gobcoats that were spent to get this gear.
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02-02-2016, 03:25 AMAlexiIvaniskavichAs SE has stated that the value of STR to damage output will be REDUCED (not removed), probably no. STR isn't worthless, it's just going to be less valuable than VIT. You will do more damage with STR accessories than you would with DEX accessores, but just not as much as you would with VIT.Quote:
Originally Posted by kaylemick
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02-02-2016, 03:32 AMDotsNnots
So.. to someone who's been thinking about leveling up a tank, is this the official RIP of str tanks? I was reading about people having different gear sets a couple of weeks ago, so I'm just wondering if I should mentally throw out that information as going forward I'll 99.9% of the time only need to go full vit?
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02-02-2016, 03:34 AMSyzygianMost responsible STR tanks still carried a full set of VIT right side to swap in for accuracy/hp checks. You had to for savage. But for folks not raiding that went full STR and ignored VIT entirely, just because the raiding folk were doing it... yeah dunno what to tell you there. They've been talking about this forever now, more yhan enough time to at bare minimum get some eso/alex190 pieces.Quote:
Originally Posted by kaylemick
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02-02-2016, 03:36 AMSpookyGhostMost responsible STR tanks used pentamelds and swapped those for STR one by one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syzygian
Sorta depends on the weighting (which we don't know yet), but there's a 9/10 chance that VIT > STR. If they make bosses actually hit harder then that will just seal the deal. But to be safe I'd just wait until 3.2 and keep an open mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by DotsNnots
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02-02-2016, 03:46 AMAlexiIvaniskavich"We will be changing the method for calculating the potency of physical attacks for tank roles in Patch 3.2. We’ll be making it so vitality affects the potency of physical attacks, and as a result the effect of strength on physical attack potency will be reduced.Quote:
Originally Posted by DotsNnots
From Patch 3.2 onwards, you’ll be safe using only vitality accessories as well as allocating everything to vitality as a tank. For everyone who is currently using strength accessories on their tanks, the damage will be lowered, so please prepare your vitality accessories ahead of time."
Direct quote, also on page 1. Based on the fact that SE blatently said:
"From Patch 3.2 onwards, you’ll be safe using only vitality accessories as well as allocating everything to vitality as a tank. For everyone who is currently using strength accessories on their tanks, the damage will be lowered, so please prepare your vitality accessories ahead of time."
There is 3 weeks until patch, unless you are raiding a3/a4 savage right now as a tank, I wouldn't bother with STR accessories (unless you are also gearing mnk/drg)
I would say its guaranteed that VIT > STR effective 3.2, the question is only by how much. -
02-02-2016, 03:48 AMSyzygianYes, and in fact this is what i did as well. I was trying to avoid being presumptuous by implying that every tank could afford pentamelds but clearly that was a wasted effort :|Quote:
Originally Posted by SpookyGhost
Honestly what's most irresponsible is folks that ran around telling casuals to ignore tank gear. -
02-02-2016, 04:06 AMSpookyGhostWell I was mainly having a gripe with "you had to for savage", since anyone who was serious about Savage progression wasn't using VIT + STR. ;VQuote:
Originally Posted by Syzygian
VIT + STR was perfectly viable, don't get me wrong, but just worse overall than pentamelds - and while they were costly it was something that a responsible tank did for the benefit of his/her group. But that's strictly for Savage, anything else and it's just w/e floats your boat. -
02-02-2016, 04:27 AMNektulos-Tuor
So unlike MMOs, this one (which is a subscription mmo, meaning you can only do things every so often.) makes you waste your esos replacing a mistake they made. Whilst every other class can spend their esos and time regearing alts and new toons. THAT is not fair.
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02-02-2016, 04:28 AMDotsNnotsThanks, I did read the notes, but wanted some tank-player input. Especially since what a game-dev says about the function in a game doesn't always equal what the player's experience....Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexiIvaniskavich
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02-02-2016, 04:36 AMBranniganSpend more time in game and less time on the forums and you'll have no problem getting vitality accessories before the patch hits. It honestly won't even matter unless you're planning on doing day 1 progression anyway. Everything other than raiding is tuned so low that you could go in naked and be fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor
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02-02-2016, 04:41 AMInstrumentalityPretty sure the unfair part was tanks having a choice at all where no one else got one. Also you know the part where new players were consistently misled by game design to pick up incorrect jewelry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor
I'm glad they're correcting both of those problems. -
02-02-2016, 04:57 AMAlexiIvaniskavichWell, presently game function for what exactly 3.2 will be is unknown. all we have to go on are the translated notes. This change brings the game back into the ballpark of what the Dev's intended. Until there are actual numbers to crunch, I don't believe this meta will deviate from this path.Quote:
Originally Posted by DotsNnots
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02-02-2016, 07:12 AMUndeadfire
If they keep the mob damage as minimal the game will be a cakewalk for tanks, no challenge at anything. The reason to STR is push to damage and control hate more. You wouldn't be able to hold the high end parse melee DPS or blm without having trouble controlling it for the 60 cap. Regardless of VIT mods for damage, people are still going to aim DPS check pushing in Raiding, lol.... More HP, stronger tank busters, doesn't make a difference. The faster the fights are pushed and phased, the easier it is. You may think it will stop tank dps, but no it won't, dedicated raid groups are still going to force you to have a parse check.
SCOB, FCOB, Alex Gordias all forced you to STR in your attacks to make the dps checks and end the fight quicker. Midas is going to do the same, VIT modded as a damage attribute. -
02-02-2016, 07:30 AMkensatsu
i get both str and vita 210 accesories.
i all times get the two set to be sure, i am safe for anything.
all the tank raiding should have done the same. -
02-02-2016, 07:47 AMNektulos-TuorThere was not a choice, strength was clearly better in every part of the game. So please take that talk elsewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Instrumentality
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02-02-2016, 09:06 AMUndeadfire
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02-02-2016, 09:14 AMNyghtmarerobuWithout any real information on actual weights you are just making baseless assumptions. Just imagine if the str weight as it is now, shifted to vit for tanks. 1 vit = 1 atk power. There would be zero reason to wear str gear, but that won't happen. In actuality, if the weight of vit is even slightly more than str point for point for atk power, people will stack vit over str, as it will increase dps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Undeadfire
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02-02-2016, 09:21 AMUndeadfire
That's what I'm saying... Increase DPS, that's the point. I'm only making a baseless example.
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02-02-2016, 09:23 AMCaitlinzulu
All pray to the god of deeps. XP
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02-02-2016, 09:26 AMInstrumentalityPretty sure melded jewelry provided more stats than any one type of other jewelry ever has, and tanks uniquely benefited from it massively.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor
So nah, I think I'll keep talking right here.
Also maybe you should have eso strength jewelry before you ask the developers for free time (to refund all that time you spent not actually getting strength jewelry) that you spent getting your non-existent jewelry? -
02-02-2016, 09:56 AMSyzygian
I want to see what happens if VIT is weighted high enough over STR that it'll be a DPS loss to switch a parry VIT piece for a crit/det STR piece or something. Wouldn't that be some shit? Some tanks might have a full-on meltdown.