Yoshida' stance on PL and why it is less than ideal.

Dayum.

So many words, so little said.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

Dayum.

So many words, so little said.

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Are you referring to your OP?

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Originally Posted by Zaireeka2025

Are you referring to your OP?

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Nope, Eekiki.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

Dayum.

So many words, so little said.

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Come on, Betel. You can do better than that.

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

I've heard this many times before too. It also never comes true, unfortunately.

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Yeah so have I. That time when they satisfy their paying (initial purchase) customers never comes.

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

I've heard this before. I hear it after every patch goes live. It never comes true. It won't come true this time, either.

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This is the first patch where anything really significant has changed lol.

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Originally Posted by Zezlar

Yeah so have I. That time when they satisfy their paying (initial purchase) customers never comes.

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Most people here paid (much like I did) €3 for their game on Amazon. If you paid €70, then more fool you. I think just the first 10 minutes of the game more than pays for it, anything after that and you are laughing.

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Originally Posted by Zezlar

Yeah so have I. That time when they satisfy their paying (initial purchase) customers never comes.

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I pre-ordered the collector's edition.

I feel I've gotten more than my money's worth from it.

Would I pay a subscription fee if they started charging today? Probably, if I knew for sure future patches would be of the same caliber as 1.18 and 1.19.

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

Come on, Betel. You can do better than that.

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You assume that I want to...? I know better than that.

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Originally Posted by Zaireeka2025

Ok, before you embarrass yourself more, you should quit now... really? Geometry... lol. Besides, a logical person would clearly see C is an unnecessary conclusion to a misleading B. Now I'm going to show you how this actually relates to the actual topic.

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lulz, I'm not embarrassing myself, I'm entertaining myself.

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Originally Posted by Zaireeka2025

let's not get caught up in "if A = B and B = C, then A must = C" argument here. There is content for everyone.

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There's your original quote. I said twice that I wasn't sure what context you were trying to use that in, simply that what you said was an "argument" is actually a mathematical fact. If you don't want me to apply math rules, don't use math equations.

Also, since I don't really care about your context, I didn't read the rest, but thanks for explaining!

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

You assume that I want to...? I know better than that.

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You must, otherwise you wouldn't have said anything.

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Originally Posted by Zaireeka2025

Just because you see an "=" doesn't mean it's Mathematics. Take a Logic (aka Philosophy) course when you get to college. Of course you don't care... does a monkey care about the number of fingers it has?

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Even in logical classes A=B, B=C, A=C is always true. Similarly A->B, B->C, A->C is always true. Equality is exactly that regardless of whether you're talking logic, math, or science and the same rules apply.

A) New Players can essentially skip low-midgame content
Completely new players won't have access to the necessary tools or know-how to make this happened. Additionally, someone who's PL'd is going to learn about the game from someone who already knows whats going on, and in cases of important low-mid game content, they will be referred at particular levels if the content is actually worth doing.

Example from my own experience. When i started playing WoW I was leagues behind many of my friends who played. They helped me tons to level up quickly (which was easy because I joined at a time when being referred got you tons of bonus EXP.) However, around a certain level, she would tell me to go do certain dungeons (or I would decide to do them myself) that would yield me gear worthy of having until the next level milestone, whether I was PL'd or not.

So I did that content because it was there, interesting, and fun regardless of being PL'd. If there is fun content, people won't skip, and PL'ers will refer people they are PL'ing to it rather than speeding them through levels. Good content remedies PL issues, even if PLing isn't hindered.

B) New Players can essentially ignore the economy up until level 50
New players ignore the economy until mid-late game anyway. New players don't have money and contribute nothing to the economy until significantly later in the game. Furthermore, Combat classes make up less than a 3rd of the game's economy -- and Crafting/Gathering classes cannot be power leveled.

C) New Players can essentially ignore the party play component of the game that the new patch fully supports otherwise.
Party play is completely optional now that you can stockpile leves. I could get a class to level 25 in day if I felt compelled to invest hours into burning all of my leves -- I had 36 after I logged on the other day, and I just made my character. I could easily get any number of jobs to 20's with that easily. Partying is and always has been an optional thing for players. People who want to party can party and get obvious benefits from it. People who don't want to, don't have to. That's the point of the system as it is designed.

D) Any Player with no access to a PL does not have power to do any of this, and as such is in a drastically worse position as the result.
Not having access to a PL inspires people to make friends with higher level people and active linkshells if they so desire to be power leveled. Being inspired to socialize with other players, even for purposes such as PL'ing, (Which conceivably is always why you seek out allies -- be it for "PL"ing through levels, getting assistance through quests from higher level/more experienced players, or getting help through end game content with a more experienced group -- which is essentially level-less PL'ing because you never pull your own weight your first time doing end game) is a good thing.

E) Leveling becomes a hindrance rather than a method to achieve a goal.
As I've found myself re-stating constantly, leveling has always just been a hindrance. Its merely something used to slow players down and occupy/attach them to the experience while developers make more content. Considering a good half of the players here are already at level cap, people getting PL'd isn't going to make anyone less interested in playing hte game because many of the higher level players already appreciate the lack of endgame content.

If you want to read my full opinion on the PL issue, its on my blog (linked in my sig). The issue has no real effect on anyone other than the person being PL'd, its distinctly personal and has no lasting effect on the community at all. The problem, as it were, is that if Yoshi is going to have this attitude about it, he needs to focus his team on creating substantial, entertaining, and compelling content that inspires people to take their time or at least keeps people interested for the long term. Consdering that, from what I've heard speculated, Jobs will be leveled based on quests and not EXP -- I don't think PL'ing will do much beyond get you to level 50, which seems like its the 20-30% completion mark for the direction the game is heading.

As far as I can see, even with the PL option, there are regulars parties being formed without any problems. You are assuming this will go to the extent where there are no regular parties formed. Like everything in an MMO, everything can be adjusted. I am sure if it comes to that, SE will adjust the PL issue. Up until now, it is not, so let it be if its not affecting you. I am of the mindset that if I have the time, I would rather do grind parties or anything fun to level up. It is rather boring to receive and to give PL but I am glad the option is there if I'm up for it one day for myself or friends.

This thread is like every other doom thread and I predict that like every other doom thread we freak out times rolls on, nothing happens. Everyone wants the game to succeed, but we need to let the Dev Team do their job, in most cases they can foresee unwanted outcomes better than players.

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Originally Posted by CrystalWeapon

Even in logical classes A=B, B=C, A=C is always true. Similarly A->B, B->C, A->C is always true. Equality is exactly that regardless of whether you're talking logic, math, or science and the same rules apply.

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Whatever you said, um sure. Point was, B is irrelevant which makes C irrelevant... aka (=, ->, thus, etc) Yoshi cares about the "journey" because there is content added to enjoy. Betel's OP stance that Yoshi only wants us to rocket to endgame is moot.

Yoshi allowing us to PL each other is a choice of freedom and comradery on his part. As for those who want to sit down and prove a point by trying your absolute hardest to point out the PL issue by sitting and getting PL'd for 19 hours straight and screenshotting an XIVPADS image of what's possible with enough system abuse... well, that's something SE may have to change in order for everyone to shut up about the PL issue. The game was designed for ppl who like to play games, not for ppl who find ways to abuse the system and bark like angry dogs.

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Originally Posted by Holland

As far as I can see, even with the PL option, there are regulars parties being formed without any problems. You are assuming this will go to the extent where there are no regular parties formed. Like everything in an MMO, everything can be adjusted. I am sure if it comes to that, SE will adjust the PL issue. Up until now, it is not, so let it be if its not affecting you. I am of the mindset that if I have the time, I would rather do grind parties or anything fun to level up. It is rather boring to receive and to give PL but I am glad the option is there if I'm up for it one day for myself or friends.

This thread is like every other doom thread and I predict that like every other doom thread we freak out times rolls on, nothing happens. Everyone wants the game to succeed, but we need to let the Dev Team do their job, in most cases they can foresee unwanted outcomes better than players.

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The patch has only been out a week. A lot of players don't visit forums. I don't think it will ever get to the point of no regular parties being formed, but all a game mechanic as advantageous as this can do is grow in popularity. Once word starts really getting out and more people are hitting 50, you will see far fewer normal parties.

So that is what yosipi think, great i have better reason to quit now

I don't think that Yoshida values endgame over the rest of the game, for that reason I disagree with the OP. In my opinion Yoshi values friends being able to play together quickly rather than having to be alone (this is why friends of mine have started and quit soon after, because they are stuck at low levels and aren't able to play with me within a reasonable time period). Because he wants players to have an option to level up quickly to play with their friends, there will always be someone there to abuse this feature. His mindset would most likely be that he trusts people not to abuse this and level up a second and so on class properly after being powerleveled to play with their friends.

Any feature like this is always going to be abused, the only solution I can offer is that perhaps you could select one class to be able to be powerleveled, and only that one class recieve such high experience within a party with a lvl 50. Forsaking the start of the game to skip to endgame is ultimately a player's choice, it has nothing to do with Yoshida.

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Originally Posted by Buddhsie

His mindset would most likely be that he trusts people not to abuse this and level up a second and so on class properly after being powerleveled to play with their friends.

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If that's true, then he is hopelessly naive.

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Originally Posted by Buddhsie

Any feature like this is always going to be abused, the only solution I can offer is that perhaps you could select one class to be able to be powerleveled, and only that one class recieve such high experience within a party with a lvl 50. Forsaking the start of the game to skip to endgame is ultimately a player's choice, it has nothing to do with Yoshida.

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Or they can adjust the system so you can't be PL'd at all and instead implement a mentor or "level sync" system (though, better thought out and implemented than XI's broken and equally abused version)... Then those higher level players can still play with their lower level friends, help them level up. A benefit to that is it won't trivialize the content the lower friend is doing since they will effectively be the same level while sync'd, so the higher level player can't just plow through it all.

I really can't help but tell myself that this was just a massive oversight by Yoshi and/or his QA folks. I can't believe he'd deliberately want people to be able to get to level 50, potentially inside a day. I don't even think that's possible in WoW... though I might be wrong. Regardless... it's freaking stupid. RMT companies are going to love this.

Hell if a friend of mine started playing there's no way I'd powerlevel them for more than a couple hours, I'd probably get them to about 30 and then tell them to do it themselves from there.

You'd probably be doing them (and ultimately yourself during endgame content) harm by not allowing them to learn how to play if you get them to 50 quickly, not to mention no cross class abilities. Realistically it's A LOT of powerleveling to get someone up to par, you'd want to really be BFFs lol.

All they need to do is close the gap a little between the amount of exp a really low level gets when playing with a higher level. Getting exp is fine and all, but they shouldnt be able to blast through levels. Doing this just as a precaution would work.

Of course no one wants to invalidate the nice new armor and low level areas in the game. It might not be as much of a problem since most people probably wont want to be power leveled anyway, and i'm sure exp rates will be tweaked again at some point.

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Originally Posted by Teknoman

All they need to do is close the gap a little between the amount of exp a really low level gets when playing with a higher level. Getting exp is fine and all, but they shouldnt be able to blast through levels. Doing this just as a precaution would work.

Of course no one wants to invalidate the nice new armor and low level areas in the game. It might not be as much of a problem since most people probably wont want to be power leveled anyway, and i'm sure exp rates will be tweaked again at some point.

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Agreed. Simple yet effective.

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Originally Posted by Teknoman

All they need to do is close the gap a little between the amount of exp a really low level gets when playing with a higher level. Getting exp is fine and all, but they shouldnt be able to blast through levels. Doing this just as a precaution would work.

Of course no one wants to invalidate the nice new armor and low level areas in the game. It might not be as much of a problem since most people probably wont want to be power leveled anyway, and i'm sure exp rates will be tweaked again at some point.

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The only option is to pick an extreme, really. If you set it up where someone can get experience for monsters higher level than them, or even at their level, with help from someone significantly higher than no matter how low the curve is the higher level player will be able to blast them through levels.

If it's moderated at all, it will have to be modded to such an extreme that its either all or nothing -- and that's the problem with this issue, there is no real middle ground.

Its two different opinions from sides of the argument which should have nothing to do with each other. PL'ers shouldn't have to be forced to do things the way other people want them to, and non PL'ers shouldn't feel so threatened or insulted by the concept of people leveling fast if that's what they want. At the end of the day, only one side will really be happy with the outcome, regardless of what it is, because that's the only way it'll really work.

A) New Players can essentially skip low-midgame content

Low-midgame content can be just as ignored w/o a PL.

B) New Players can essentially ignore the economy up until level 50

Does that matter? The economy isn't friendly towards new players anyway. They just nerfed all the vendor prices, with the economy already flooded with gold from the previous era. New players can't afford to buy anything w/o farming it themselves either way.

C) New Players can essentially ignore the party play component of the game that the new patch fully supports otherwise.

You can easily ignore the Party component w/o a PL by simply lving solo, better remove solo play from the game as well.

I honestly don't understand why so many people are so up in arms about PL. It exists in practically every MMO. The only explanation I see are people butt hurt about others not having to put as much effort to lv from the previous era.
No I don't have a 50, No I don't have anyone to PL me as I just started & don't know anyone. Would I accept a PL? Of course, I would love farming to be easier to help lv my crafts that require mob drops.

Heres a post from Oct. 6th by Reinhart, expert translator:

Another one is regarding PL although they are ok with the PL system they agree it's bit too much it defeats YoshiP's goal of being capped with 1 class over 2-3 month. No one expected it to be where you can PL and get 50 in 1-2 week lol.

So yeah, while they are ok, they wanted it so someone could be helped or level themselves from 1 to 50 in 2 months at the least. His vision wasnt something like this, so im 99% sure adjustments are coming very soon...in either 1.19a or even a b if necessary.

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Originally Posted by Reinheart

JP Side does talk about solo being much harder and SE probably wants them to start partying, but overall they are trying to adapt to it as fast as possible. I posted on my thread also but they do talk about the queue problem where it's being a problem for some when you can't stack actions but game still lets you press enter on action and the target disappears making it hard to get used to the timing. Also they do talk about leve's being bit too hard for solo specially the GC one with level 30 because of the amount of mob/links you get.

Another one is regarding PL although they are ok with the PL system they agree it's bit too much it defeats YoshiP's goal of being capped with 1 class over 2-3 month. No one expected it to be where you can PL and get 50 in 1-2 week lol.

Personally I'm solo/duo player and I did pretty bad with the first mob I tested on my Pug50, tried level 56 eft and almost died since I was fighting just like I used to not knowing the cure rate sucks compared to how much HP I have now lol But reading what YoshiP said about materia, and looking at the JP materia thread (talking about which materias give what stats, and them testing putting 2 IV materias on NQ/HQ gears and stuff) it seems like if you do it right you can pretty much solo without any problem imo. Just need to get used to the new system.

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Originally Posted by Teknoman

Heres a post from Oct. 6th by Reinhart, expert translator:

Another one is regarding PL although they are ok with the PL system they agree it's bit too much it defeats YoshiP's goal of being capped with 1 class over 2-3 month. No one expected it to be where you can PL and get 50 in 1-2 week lol.

So yeah, while they are ok, they wanted it so someone could be helped or level themselves from 1 to 50 in 2 months at the least. His vision wasnt something like this, so im 99% sure adjustments are coming very soon...in either 1.19a or even a b if necessary.

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This should really kind of be the end of this argument. If his vision was a capped class in 2-3 months, this system is obviously not his vision.

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Originally Posted by Antonn

A) New Players can essentially skip low-midgame content

Low-midgame content can be just as ignored w/o a PL.

B) New Players can essentially ignore the economy up until level 50

Does that matter? The economy isn't friendly towards new players anyway. They just nerfed all the vendor prices, with the economy already flooded with gold from the previous era. New players can't afford to buy anything w/o farming it themselves whether they.

C) New Players can essentially ignore the party play component of the game that the new patch fully supports otherwise.

You can easily ignore the Party component w/o a PL by simply lving solo, better remove solo play form the game as well.

I honestly don't understand why so many people are so up in arms about PL. It exists in practically every MMO. The only explanation I see are people butt hurt about other not having to put as much effort to lv from the previous era. No I don't have a 50, No I don't have anyone to PL me as I just started. Would I accept a PL? Of course, I would love farming to be easier to help lv my crafts that require mob drops.

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Not to be derogatory, but its quite simply pretense. Its people who take leveling as a mark of progress or prestige, because they worked hard to earn something and they feel people who PL are cheating their way to similar goals. Its the same issue you get in the pokemon community when people hack pokemon with completely legal stats and movelists to circumvent the haughty, time-consuming breeding/leveling process -- or even going older, when people would hack rare candies to level up faster.

There's absolutely nothing lost by the people who don't do this, nor by the people who do (except the rare candy thing, because it made you weaker) -- but people take it personally because they attribute skill to the amount of patience it takes to achieve these goals.

And that's not necessarily a bad thing, by any lengths, in my previous posts I referenced the treadmill effect and how it breeds an attachment to things you invest time in -- its not bad at all, its just not solid justification for holding it against other people that they don't want to invest the same ludicrous amount of time into what is a mundane prequel to the more significant components of a game.

Its different strokes for different folks -- and the complains are a reminder that despite how much people say that, a vast majority of people don't take it to heart.

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Originally Posted by Travesty

This should really kind of be the end of this argument. If his vision was a capped class in 2-3 months, this system is obviously not his vision.

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Personally, I can live with that, but it still doesn't make it something people should be losing their minds over.

Like was said early one, if its intentional -- its nothing to complain about. If its unintentional, it'll get fixed.

As it stands, it should be understood that the reason its not part of his vision is the same reason I stated before : they have a set time frame they want people to level within because it allows them to predict when they need to have content ready for each level range.

Essentially, the steep leveling curve is their flood gate.

I'm curious, however, how they plan to make 1 to 50 take 2-3 months (I assume they mean at a casual pace?) considering you can get from 1 to 20 in a couple of hours by spamming leves. <-- Solo, that is.

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Originally Posted by ViolentDjango

(except the rare candy thing, because it made you weaker)

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Its funny how you mention the pokemon community because it has high relation to what is going on here. Rare Candies in general just increase one factor. Leveling. Otherwise, the reason why they come out weaker is because there are hidden factors which are known as Effort Values when you use them in fighting other pokemon. Say for instance you wanted your pokemon to be more efficient in Speed, you would fight against fast pokemon like Voltorb or something. This can be done even at Level 100, and the stats will increase up to a certain limit.

Before i get carried away (which i probably already did), I am thinking that the way FFXIV works is that it is missing that beneficial factor (Effort Value)(it even has the key word, EFFORT), thus making being PLed only an easier route to level cap, with nothing lost in between.

Nobody will do Toto-rak anymore because the equipment isn't desirable. Let alone are they even going to use it. Why would you want equipment that you are not going to even use to fight with it? That is where that Effort Value is.

HOW TO FIX THIS ISSUE

Just thought that maybe it would be best to take FFXI's route and implement Level Sync.

This way, high level players also benefit this by spirit bonding equipment (Or even exp if they are not at 50), and low level players can experience the game as it should be.

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Originally Posted by Antonn

A)

I honestly don't understand why so many people are so up in arms about PL. It exists in practically every MMO. The only explanation I see are people butt hurt about others not having to put as much effort to lv from the previous era.
No I don't have a 50, No I don't have anyone to PL me as I just started & don't know anyone. Would I accept a PL? Of course, I would love farming to be easier to help lv my crafts that require mob drops.

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I never minded PLing in games such as FFXI where you had a healer outside keeping you alive. You're still working towards your exp by putting in the effort. In FFXIV all you have to do is literally stand there as some other high level kills almost every mob in a few hits gaining thousands of exp every minute.

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Originally Posted by ViolentDjango

Not to be derogatory, but its quite simply pretense. Its people who take leveling as a mark of progress or prestige, because they worked hard to earn something and they feel people who PL are cheating their way to similar goals. Its the same issue you get in the pokemon community when people hack pokemon with completely legal stats and movelists to circumvent the haughty, time-consuming breeding/leveling process -- or even going older, when people would hack rare candies to level up faster.

There's absolutely nothing lost by the people who don't do this, nor by the people who do (except the rare candy thing, because it made you weaker) -- but people take it personally because they attribute skill to the amount of patience it takes to achieve these goals.

And that's not necessarily a bad thing, by any lengths, in my previous posts I referenced the treadmill effect and how it breeds an attachment to things you invest time in -- its not bad at all, its just not solid justification for holding it against other people that they don't want to invest the same ludicrous amount of time into what is a mundane prequel to the more significant components of a game.

Its different strokes for different folks -- and the complains are a reminder that despite how much people say that, a vast majority of people don't take it to heart.



Personally, I can live with that, but it still doesn't make it something people should be losing their minds over.

Like was said early one, if its intentional -- its nothing to complain about. If its unintentional, it'll get fixed.

As it stands, it should be understood that the reason its not part of his vision is the same reason I stated before : they have a set time frame they want people to level within because it allows them to predict when they need to have content ready for each level range.

Essentially, the steep leveling curve is their flood gate.

I'm curious, however, how they plan to make 1 to 50 take 2-3 months (I assume they mean at a casual pace?) considering you can get from 1 to 20 in a couple of hours by spamming leves. <-- Solo, that is.

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God damn your posts are so full of win.

Too bad very few here have the attention span to read them, especially the "plz PL me" babbies who are exploiting the system.

Words of wisdom:

A player who PL'd to endgame, and has the best gear RMT gil can buy will never match the ability of a player who leveled up the old-fashioned way.

The grind player will not only have the level ingame, but they will also have real battle experience, ergo the mental abiliity to play thier class well, something that the power leveler will never have, since they are generally leeching off high-level players, without actually learning what thier class is able to do. They may eventually learn how to play thier class, but they will still be lacking in overall experience.

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Originally Posted by Travesty

This should really kind of be the end of this argument. If his vision was a capped class in 2-3 months, this system is obviously not his vision.

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Agreed. I'm glad to see this update.

Now they just need to do something about it.

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Originally Posted by Vanguard319

Words of wisdom:

A player who PL'd to endgame, and has the best gear RMT gil can buy will never match the ability of a player who leveled up the old-fashioned way.

The grind player will not only have the level ingame, but they will also have real battle experience, ergo the mental abiliity to play thier class well, something that the power leveler will never have, since they are generally leeching off high-level players, without actually learning what thier class is able to do. They may eventually learn how to play thier class, but they will still be lacking in overall experience.

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Agreed.... I see many times where people say "you can learn your job just fine at level cap. Nothing is missed by PL'ing through the levels and learning at the end".

Just using one MMORPG - FFXI - as an example, I could give a novel's worth of evidence to the contrary.

Prior to PL'ing reaching the point where it became a complete crutch for people in FFXI, I very very seldom ever got into a party with people who didn't know at least the fundamentals of how to play their job. Most times - easily the majority - they knew the tools of their job, knew how to use them and when to use them. The best test being when the crap hit the fan and everyone had to think on their toes to pull out of it alive. Those people who played the game through every level, and didn't just powerlevel, time and again, showed that they understood the game, understood their jobs and knew how to play their part.

Fast-forward to when PL became really prominent and the difference was night and day. Players I grouped with made level 10 mistakes, at level 50+.. Why? 'cause they'd been PL'd up through many levels, or otherwise got themselves into "sweet" situations where they were basically riding others' coat-tails. They didn't learn their jobs because they never had to.

Oh, they knew the skills.. they could tell you a thing or two about it (usually taken straight from an online guide they read or what someone else told them)... If they were in a controlled and smoothly running group they were fine. But when it mattered, they fell apart... almost every time.

When the crap hit the fan, they couldn't think on their toes. They didn't pull out their best game and pull it together to help get the group through it alive. And I'm talking key roles here.. tanks... healers... CC'ers, etc. They just did not know how to play their job when it really counted.

I remember a party where the BLM could have easily helped control the situation by sleeping some adds.. They didn't. They stood there and kept DD'ing the wrong mob... and of course, they died. I've seen healers get the group killed 'cause they didn't know how to prioritize and manage their MP to keep the heals where they were really needed when things got a bit hectic.

You could tell when someone had played the game and learned through hours upon hours of fights, close-calls, near wipes and all around tough situations. They knew their shit and they didn't need to tell you they did. They demonstrated it through how they played.

Even on subsequent jobs, as some people say "oh once you've leveled your first job to cap, you can PL your next jobs since you've already learned all there is".

Uhh.. no you haven't. Yes, grouping with other jobs and learning what those jobs can do is very different than when you're in the hot-seat and have to fill that same role. There are nuances, subtleties, timings and such that you can only learn through lots of practice, through lots of fights against lots of different mobs in lots of different scenarios through lots of levels. You simply cannot replace hands-on experience by 'watching others do it'. It's never the same.

Sad thing is.. a lot of times, the people who really suck don't even realize they really suck.

I knew someone in FFXI who got BLM to 75 - primarily by letting others know she was female IRL and getting guys (forever the suckers) to carry her through the levels, get her gear, etc. She was useless. She had no freaking clue how to play her job. She just automatically used the most powerful of any spell she had, no matter the situation, no matter what she was told.

So... overall.. I know there are a number of people out there (likely the power-levelers) who will insist they can play their jobs just as well as people who didnt' PL... and in some cases that may be true. Some folks just always struggle with certain jobs 'cause it's not their cup of tea. Conversely, some people are very intuitive and pick up on things quickly.

However, by and large, I have never seen someone I know was PL'd ever come close to performing as well, in all situations, as someone who put in the time and got the hands-on experience. Never.

That's in 7+ years of FFXI, 5+ years of Lineage 2 and a variety of other MMOs.

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

Agreed.... I see many times where people say "you can learn your job just fine at level cap. Nothing is missed by PL'ing through the levels and learning at the end".

Just using one MMORPG - FFXI - as an example, I could give a novel's worth of evidence to the contrary.

Prior to PL'ing reaching the point where it became a complete crutch for people in FFXI, I very very seldom ever got into a party with people who didn't know at least the fundamentals of how to play their job. Most times - easily the majority - they knew the tools of their job, knew how to use them and when to use them. The best test being when the crap hit the fan and everyone had to think on their toes to pull out of it alive. Those people who played the game through every level, and didn't just powerlevel, time and again, showed that they understood the game, understood their jobs and knew how to play their part.

Fast-forward to when PL became really prominent and the difference was night and day. Players I grouped with made level 10 mistakes, at level 50+.. Why? 'cause they'd been PL'd up through many levels, or otherwise got themselves into "sweet" situations where they were basically riding others' coat-tails. They didn't learn their jobs because they never had to.

Oh, they knew the skills.. they could tell you a thing or two about it (usually taken straight from an online guide they read or what someone else told them)... If they were in a controlled and smoothly running group they were fine. But when it mattered, they fell apart... almost every time.

When the crap hit the fan, they couldn't think on their toes. They didn't pull out their best game and pull it together to help get the group through it alive. And I'm talking key roles here.. tanks... healers... CC'ers, etc. They just did not know how to play their job when it really counted.

I remember a party where the BLM could have easily helped control the situation by sleeping some adds.. They didn't. They stood there and kept DD'ing the wrong mob... and of course, they died. I've seen healers get the group killed 'cause they didn't know how to prioritize and manage their MP to keep the heals where they were really needed when things got a bit hectic.

You could tell when someone had played the game and learned through hours upon hours of fights, close-calls, near wipes and all around tough situations. They knew their shit and they didn't need to tell you they did. They demonstrated it through how they played.

Even on subsequent jobs, as some people say "oh once you've leveled your first job to cap, you can PL your next jobs since you've already learned all there is".

Uhh.. no you haven't. Yes, grouping with other jobs and learning what those jobs can do is very different than when you're in the hot-seat and have to fill that same role. There are nuances, subtleties, timings and such that you can only learn through lots of practice, through lots of fights against lots of different mobs in lots of different scenarios through lots of levels. You simply cannot replace hands-on experience by 'watching others do it'. It's never the same.

Sad thing is.. a lot of times, the people who really suck don't even realize they really suck.

I knew someone in FFXI who got BLM to 75 - primarily by letting others know she was female IRL and getting guys (forever the suckers) to carry her through the levels, get her gear, etc. She was useless. She had no freaking clue how to play her job. She just automatically used the most powerful of any spell she had, no matter the situation, no matter what she was told.

So... overall.. I know there are a number of people out there (likely the power-levelers) who will insist they can play their jobs just as well as people who didnt' PL... and in some cases that may be true. Some folks just always struggle with certain jobs 'cause it's not their cup of tea. Conversely, some people are very intuitive and pick up on things quickly.

However, by and large, I have never seen someone I know was PL'd ever come close to performing as well, in all situations, as someone who put in the time and got the hands-on experience. Never.

That's in 7+ years of FFXI, 5+ years of Lineage 2 and a variety of other MMOs.

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I'm sorry, but no...

I started playing FFXI in back in December of 2003 and didn't stop going back to it until about 6 months ago. I have, at one point, played every job at level 75 and several at level 90 and I will say boldly that leveling taught me NOTHING about end game.

The things you learned for endgame were things they taught you IN endgame, and after Square started building abilities and game functionality around endgame, it just got worse.

I leveled up learning skill chains and mana conservation, but by the time you hit 75 (And eventually 90), none of that mattered. You were only casting at specific times, doing specific spells, and watching for specific things to stun. Things that were only barely practiced while leveling up. Maybe early on you had to learn to save your TP for stuns when goblins could level all of Yhoator with one bomb, but even that was phased out by 2004.

The argument isn't a blind claim that you don't learn how to play your job over the course of leveling up -- you definitely learn certain things. The argument is that you don't HAVE to spend months leveling up to appreciate how your class is supposed to work and what your abilities do.

Especially with how bare bones things are -- the game tells you exactly what an ability does and wikis tell you exactly the percentages the effects have. There's no need to investigate and develop a feel for how things work when you know the actual numbers behind it.

You can spout years of experience all you want, I'm sure a lot of us can -- 10 years of Ragnarok Online (across several custom servers), 8 years of Final Fantasy XI, several months of WoW, years and years of Diablo: but it doesn't matter.

End game is always significantly more complex and unwieldy than the leveling game, and unless the game makes a habit of hiding things from you (Which early FFXI did), then its very easy to research your abilities and learn what you're supposed to do.

Good players do that anyway, even if they took 2 years to level up to cap. Bad players don't, and that's why they are bad players. And that's why forcing them to level up slower isn't going to change anything.

Like I said before, none of us who actually aim to have any amount of success are going to be running solely with completely random players -- so the power leveling issue doesn't directly effect anyone other than the people who PL and don't take the time to learn what they are supposed to be doing. Its a non-issue that's being overhyped, especially considering Yoshida has already expressed interest in fixing the issue because it hinders part of his expected time frame for leveling up.

That aside, let's not muddle an already overhyped issue with more nonsense. People who want to learn to play a game properly do. You can't force that down their throats -- bad players will be bad players, whether you force them through a 3 months long, tutorial where "This is how you play your job" instructions pop up in bright red and yellow letters or not.

People who -want- to be good players will seek out the information they need to do so -- because that's just how it works. That's why we have the phrase "ignorance is bliss." Because some people are perfectly content with not knowing any better, and they're going to stay that way no matter how you try to spin it.

I think that the whole proposition is laughable to begin with.

When I brought my friend into the game a month ago, I switched jobs and leveled together. I did not, in any way, have to bring him along to my level of content. I was still able to "help out" with my higher level job if we ever got in over our heads. Doing so would kill our SP in the short term, but would get us unstuck so we could keep playing.

In the new system, I'd have to keep my conjurer staff out all the time, and completely overshadow my friend, ruining his fun in the name of "progression."

Yes, I always have the option of still doing it the old way, but whenever it would start to get slow, there would be that feeling that there's an easier way.

The tricky thing about MMOs is that players feel like they have to go for the path with the highest reward. It is the burden of the designers to make sure that the path of highest reward is at least somewhat enjoyable.

Why would i level to 50 without PLing?! Why would i play an MMO long term if i start at max level?! I had a lot of faith in Yoshi-P and even the FFXIV community, but after seeing this debate i am baffled that everyone truly believes the insane logic that PLing has major no bearing on the game.

As sated in the beginning of the thread it disrupts, everything from the in game economy to the community of players.

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Originally Posted by ViolentDjango

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You speak with so much truth that I couldn't be bothered to say myself. I applaud you, sir.

There is just one thing that confused me:

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Originally Posted by ViolentDjango

...especially considering Yoshida has already expressed interest in fixing the issue because it hinders part of his expected time frame for leveling up.

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I may have missed something, but where is this?

YOU should be mad about the bots running around, PL'ing atleast the player is there to move around if needed.

even FFXI you have out side healing & buffs level sync destroyed xp camps "qufim island only so i can ding lv18+", this game just let everyone xp in the party and not waste there time being PL

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Originally Posted by ViolentDjango

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while I admit that endgame was often very different, Merit Parties were not. You had to be on your toes and at your best, or else you were seriously dragging your party down and slowing the exp rate. You could easily tell who had been playing for a while, and who had PLed their character via another account or bought it from a gil seller. They were most often unwilling to communicate or learn. Yeah, players who wanted to learn would learn. But more often than not, players who cheated their way through their levels didn't give a damn about good teamwork, which was absolutely essential in merit parties.

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Originally Posted by Denmo

while I admit that endgame was often very different, Merit Parties were not. You had to be on your toes and at your best, or else you were seriously dragging your party down and slowing the exp rate. You could easily tell who had been playing for a while, and who had PLed their character via another account or bought it from a gil seller. They were most often unwilling to communicate or learn. Yeah, players who wanted to learn would learn. But more often than not, players who cheated their way through their levels didn't give a damn about good teamwork, which was absolutely essential in merit parties.

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lol who merited with randoms ;/.

Seriously it wasn't hard to merit. Gear meant more than AMAZING PARTY DYNAMICS you magically learn while leveling. Hell, meripo pulling would never be learned in regular parties without a PL. Communication was pointless outside starting the party. Too busy getting chain 200 to talk.

Gear swaps meant more than magically learning a meripo party system (which was nothing like the "traditional" exp party) while leveling. And well, leveling doesn't really teach you gearswaps.

Point still stands that bad players will be bad, despite having leveled the "hard way".