What is a BAD player?

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Originally Posted by Evangela

Nobody should have to force you. Speedrunning is the standard of the community right now. Do it, or you're a BAD player.

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And with this, you confirm that you are in fact the object of the topic.
1)If anyone DOES attempt to force others to speedrun, they are breaking the Terms of Service and could be reported.
2)Speed runs are not the standard of the 'community'. They may be YOUR standard, they are not mine, the intended mode of play is not a speedrun, if you impose a speed run on other players against their will, you are the one in the wrong. Just as it is with the hunts there is no such thing as an early pull, it's a social construct imposed by a portion of the community, it is not an agreed standard, nor is it suggested by the creators of the game.
3) your final statement ordering a course of action on others and stating they are bad if they don't follow your directive or standard shows a complete lack of respect.

In summary, YOU are a bad player if you act as you described.

Bad Player: Someone who refuses to acknowledge their faults and does not attempt to get better. Often has a toxic behavior or causes party wipes on a whim because "f*ck it."
(IE: Healers who would rather DPS than Heal, Tanks that don't hold aggro on all mobs, DD who think they can tank xP and bards/mch who don't sing. did I miss anyone?)

Unskilled Player: someone who just can't comprehend mechanics and takes longer than others to perfect them. Tries reaaaally hard but just can't reach that job's optimal (not maximum) potential.
(IE: Bard who isn't used to the new changes and can't keep up. Mnk/Drg/Nin who can't memorize their rotations and just spam 123. Tanks who over mitigate or under mitigate because they don't understand that only Superman tier geared players can eat a Tank Buster/a ton of mobs via speed run)

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

And with this, you confirm that you are in fact the object of the topic.
1)If anyone DOES attempt to force others to speedrun, they are breaking the Terms of Service and could be reported.
2)Speed runs are not the standard of the 'community'. They may be YOUR standard, they are not mine, the intended mode of play is not a speedrun, if you impose a speed run on other players against their will, you are the one in the wrong. Just as it is with the hunts there is no such thing as an early pull, it's a social construct imposed by a portion of the community, it is not an agreed standard, nor is it suggested by the creators of the game.
3) your final statement ordering a course of action on others and stating they are bad if they don't follow your directive or standard shows a complete lack of respect.

In summary, YOU are a bad player if you act as you described.

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Except the players can vote kick the one who refuses to follow the playstyle of the others.

Reference:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ically-allowed

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Originally Posted by Evangela

Except the players can vote kick the one who refuses to follow the playstyle of the others.

Reference:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ically-allowed

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I enjoy speeds runs as much as the next player, but I can't agree that if a player doesn't speed run, they are "BAD." Now if this person joined a PF group that specified as such, that is one thing, but if this is duty finder (the main time this would be an issue, I feel.) everyone should be going into that with the expectation that they may have to alter their play style.

I would say the tank is the most important in the group to be comfortable in the play style as he/she is the one setting up the run for the rest of us. If the tank is not geared or still fresh to the dungeon, I would much rather they take things the "slow way", to avoid deaths that will only serve to draw out the entire process. If the tank (an the rest of the party) is cool with speed running, then I am all for it.

Not speed running doesn't not make a "bad" player though....At least not in my eyes.

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Originally Posted by Evangela

If you want the others to slow themselves down to your level instead of improving yourself, then you're a BAD player.



Nobody should have to force you. Speedrunning is the standard of the community right now. Do it, or you're a BAD player.



If the tank and the party members are capable to pull the entire rooms, I don't see anything wrong with it.

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And this my SE community is what we call an awful player please don't follow this mantra...you do not dictate the speed of a party's run yes in majority if not all lvl 50 dungeons, can be speed ran but that's cause of the obvious ilvl gaps for those dungeons...I rather the tank move moderately then to continually wipe the group cause they ate to much food(mobs)

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Originally Posted by Evangela

Except the players can vote kick the one who refuses to follow the playstyle of the others.

Reference:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ically-allowed

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You're basically saying that because it's technically OK to vote kick someone, your crappy attitude is technically allowed, so you're free to be a jerk as long as at least one other in a 4-man dungeon agrees. That's just a piss poor attitude towards others and to be honest in the long run I'd hope that your marginal abuse of votekick will earn you sufficient griefing reports to deserve a reprimand.

I'll make sure to watch for your name and take the penalty for quitting rather than run with you.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

Replies in the quote box.
I hate healers who don't do dps and just stands there until tank gets hit to heal once. These healers usually don't get caught out when a big AoE hits. There's a time & place for DPS. Time and place my arse, I've had handful of healers who literally do no dps throughout the entire run. These are just lazy ass poms and ur comment makes no sense either.

I hate tanks who thinks they control the speed of dungeons runs by single pulling when we have all the aoe in the world. I can say the same about meathead tanks who think they're Superman and try to pull entire rooms full of enemies. You totally missed my point, if we got the aoe damage to kill large groups, then you should roll with that. Pulling an entire room isn't really an issue if ur team can handle it. Now knowing whether or not a team can handle it is another issue.

I hate BLM's asking for Ballad. Who does this? I've seen BLM's ask for Ballad, many times. I've even been kicked out of a dungeon at the last boss for this, 3 times in my career. So don't you DARE say they don't exist.

I hate Tanks just pulling bosses randomly without notice. If you're gonna try reply like a smartarse, might aswell make a comeback for everything.

I hate Tanks, who can't even keep hate from a Bard. Again, who does this? A lot of em and that's a fact.

I hate Tanks who avoids aoe circles and let's it go to waste. OK, this is officially a troll post. Shadow Flare/Flaming Arrows. *Tank pulls mobs to side* FUUUUUUUUUUU

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Replies in the quote box.

People who treat everything likes its a raid or something. People who think everyone should know every fight 100% and never screw up. No, I'm not defending the other bad players (the ones who can't avoid an AoE circle to save their life or can't play their class at all) but not everything has to be done like its Alexander Savage or something. People screw up, we are only human. But, as someone from this forum has said before, you could make a game about holding hands and running through a field of flowers together and there would still be that one guy telling you you're doing it wrong.

A bad player doesn't want to improve but this generally goes for anything in life. That's all there is to it.

A Bad player is someone who accuses another player of being bad.

Can anyone tell me how to post an image in the forum cause I have a perfect Yoda Meme for this statement.

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Originally Posted by Evangela

Except the players can vote kick the one who refuses to follow the playstyle of the others.

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Sure they can; that comes down to "difference of opinion", and if the majority want to run the duty a certain way, they have the right to vote-kick the one (or ones, in case of 8-man duties) who disagrees.

That does not make the minority bad players. It simply means they are the minority and have been voted off that particular island.

If the tank is new-ish to tanking, and unsure of how to do their job (or undergeared for the duty), it's often better to underpull than overpull, no matter what type of DPS the damage dealers are best at. If said tank pulls as much as the damage dealers dictate, and is then unable to hold aggro on all the mobs, or unable to handle his or her cooldowns properly to mitigate enough damage to allow the healer to keep them on their feet... That doesn't necessarily make them a bad player, just one without the confidence to say, "I'm sorry, but no. I'm going to pull at the speed I'm comfortable with."

Being allowed to votekick someone due to a difference of opinions does not mean being allowed to call said player bad.

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Originally Posted by xXRaineXx

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I hate Tanks who avoids aoe circles and let's it go to waste. OK, this is officially a troll post. Shadow Flare/Flaming Arrows. *Tank pulls mobs to side* FUUUUUUUUUUU

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I agree that those situations are very frustrating, and I do try to keep mobs inside AoE circles as much as possible. (Or myself, in case of healing/defensive circles.) But like I said in an earlier post, it can easily be turned to:
"DPS who place AoE circles before the mobs are positioned."
(Easiest example from WP normal. One of the long pulls involves a bunch of 'melee mobs' plus three 'ghosts' who are ranged. All too often, I see DPS place their circles where the final group of tonberries stand, making me cry inside as I pull the melee mobs back to where the ranged ones stop, leaving the circle empty. Since it's a dead-end, there's no way to get the ghosts to the circle, and no way to keep aggro on them if they're outside my range as a tank.)

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

Can anyone tell me how to post an image in the forum cause I have a perfect Yoda Meme for this statement.

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use the tags [ IMG ] image url [/ IMG ] (without the spaces). Or click the tiny icon above the post field that looks like an image (hover tooltip says "Insert image"). =)
This assumes you have an image already uploaded to the internet, of course ^^;

A bad player in my opinion is one who refuses to learn or improve his game. There is nothing wrong with being new or making mistakes however when pointed out in a polite and non confrontational way if they respond with "mind your own business" or "I do what I want" or some variation of then they are bad players in my book.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

A bad player is (not a complete list);

• Players who regardless of any other factor, will not move out of an AoE/dodge a mechanic because it might disrupt their positionals. (It doesn't matter whether you overgear a fight or not, this is lazy play, and encourages new players to attempt the same strategy even though they are not geared enough to handle it.)
  

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Thing is if a DPS knows the limits of their class they can pull this off. Does it make them bad? No, they're simply being more efficient with their damage output. Does it put unnecessary strain on the healer(s)? Sure, but if said healer has been stance dancing and helping DPS the entire run then it's safe to say they can handle it (not to mention there are abilities a DPS can use to mitigate damage or self heal). Basically all it boils down is a judgement call, as well as knowing which fights or parts of a fight they should / should not do it in.

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Originally Posted by ShanaShirayuki

Thing is if a DPS knows the limits of their class they can pull this off. Does it make them bad? No, they're simply being more efficient with their damage output. Does it put unnecessary strain on the healer(s)? Sure, but if said healer has been stance dancing and helping DPS the entire run then it's safe to say they can handle it (not to mention there are abilities a DPS can use to mitigate damage or self heal). Basically all it boils down is a judgement call, as well as knowing which fights or parts of a fight they should / should not do it in.

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In which case, if for some reason said DPS dies, there should be no one to rage at but them self for eating AoEs to maintain their DPS. The 1st responsibility we should all have in a battle is avoiding avoidable damage. Still, as I said, ignoring mechanics is a negative thing IMHO because it teaches new players that is how it's done, when in fact it's not - unless you're quite well overgeared.

I think the ones who kick and the ones who complain about DPS that leave party after they die once or try to explain why they are out performing someone when they died instead of the person who dodged everything but ends up getting kicked is a bad player.

Reason, they need someone who is good to push them past that content, if they don't get anyone good after the first kick they leave or disband the party instead of trying.

This tells me one thing, they need help, can't do it without someone who can out perform them even though that's what they are complaining about that they out perform others.

Yet they need help from someone else but they cant help the person who is lagging behind.

then say oh they are wasting time they aren't doing the right DPS and I just want the job done, no you are bad and need help accept it.

Help from program, help from actually good players who don't say a word they just come in do job don't complain and leave.

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Originally Posted by ShanaShirayuki

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This is a battle design flaw from SE. If someone needs to take avoidable damage to maintain a certain amount of DPS just to get past some content, they're going against everything the quests and tips from the game taught the players from the very beginning: dodging is more importante than casting/attacking.

About the one who kicks people because they're not speedrunning: grow up. This a MULTIPLAYER game, you don't get to decide if someone should or should not play a content because you are a hasty little gal. There is nothing like a "standard" of the community, because the DF converge players from all servers on a datacenter, of all skill levels.

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

About the one who kicks people because they're not speedrunning: grow up. This a MULTIPLAYER game, you don't get to decide if someone should or should not play a content because you are a hasty little gal. There is nothing like a "standard" of the community, because the DF converge players from all servers on a datacenter, of all skill levels.

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I get to decide, with the majority of the party who want to speedrun. Even SE staffs said that we're allowed to.

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Originally Posted by Evangela

I get to decide, with the majority of the party who want to speedrun. Even SE staffs said that we're allowed to.

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There's no "I" in a majority, though =D And likewise, if the majority don't want a speedrun, they can kick you for wanting one.
What I'm mostly opposed to, though, is the whole "If you don't want to speedrun, you're a bad player" statement this argument started out with, which you haven't a single time addressed. Whenever people comment on it, you ignore the posts, unless they specifically try to argue against the one 'fact' you have -- that SE allows vote-kicking for differing opinions on how a duty should be run.

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Originally Posted by Evangela

I get to decide, with the majority of the party who want to speedrun. Even SE staffs said that we're allowed to.

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No, what they said was that it's technically possible and difficult for them to do anything about, so they won't. They didn't give you a seal of approval to kick people simply because they don't want to do a speed run. You've never addressed that point and instead cling to the technicality, which reveals to me what kind of person you are.

I had an odd case recently where the tank was new. We struggled through the dungeon and eventually let him go on the last boss over the difference in playstyle rule. I felt terrible about it afterward (to the point I looked him up later to see if he was on my server so I could run him down and give him advice) but the tank was not moving the boss and was standing in all the AoEs (all of them, I mean every single one) and the dps had threat more often than he did. We did try, numerous times, but made zero progress and when we gave him a recommendation he'd say "okay" and proceed to not do it and made no visible attempts TO do it.

I believe, firmly and absolutely, in giving everyone a chance. But in these bizarre situations it can start to feel like the problematic player is holding you prisoner.

Were they bad? I don't know. Maybe just new. But they never asked for pointers or asked what they could be doing better. As a rule if someone is asking and seems genuinely interested in doing better I will put up with an endless amount of pain alongside them. If they are silent and ignoring directions...my patience runs thin.

After coming out of my Trials Roulette this evening in Greg 1.0 with a MNK that can only be described as "special" - here's my specific rundown of what this person did which I would consider making them a bad player:

- Wore gear completely unrelated to the job at hand (a VIT earing, INT bracelet, INT ring, and DEX earrings) so obviously has no interest in reading what basic stats do.
- Wore vastly underleveled gear for their level (level 28 accessories at level 50 is not good enough. Period.)
- Made no attempt to speak or communicate with the party.
- Made no attempt to do mechanics (this person died 4 times - every single time being eaten by a chicken).
- Had no idea on what abilities do, or made no effort to perform anything resembling a "rotation" (Bootshine spam doesn't count).

I could go on for hours about more generalized ways people are bad, but I fear I'd give myself an aneurysm in the process. These kind of players are getting more and more commonplace and it scares me.

One thing this game does that I love is have class specific quests. I feel like these quests could be used for story AND to teach people base mechanics a bit better.

What if the first quest as a Thaumaturge involved you learning how Astral Fire and Umbral Ice worked? What if, for Gladiators, the quest where you fend off the mercenaries for your companion had the companion explaining Flash in lore friendly ways? It is surprising how many tanks I encounter don't use Flash at low levels (Glad tanks specifically, I know Marauders might not have it). What if the early Pugilist quests taught you how to dance and weave around your enemies and pointed out, plainly, that it is the best way to play your class?

These things won't eliminate lazy, but they'd be a resource for those willing to learn the game.

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Originally Posted by Ayuhra

One thing this game does that I love is have class specific quests. I feel like these quests could be used for story AND to teach people base mechanics a bit better.

What if the first quest as a Thaumaturge involved you learning how Astral Fire and Umbral Ice worked? What if, for Gladiators, the quest where you fend off the mercenaries for your companion had the companion explaining Flash in lore friendly ways? It is surprising how many tanks I encounter don't use Flash at low levels (Glad tanks specifically, I know Marauders might not have it). What if the early Pugilist quests taught you how to dance and weave around your enemies and pointed out, plainly, that it is the best way to play your class?

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I can't comment on all classes, but Gladiator specifically has class quests that do exactly what you are saying. In one of them you have to fend off incoming waves of enemies while defending an NPC and he suggests things like using flash. It used to be quite hard, but I believe it was eased a little, so it may have lost it's sting, but you know, people don't like having to learn and work to achieve anything any more.

I'm almost certain these kinds of quest exist for all the classes, I remember CNJ had them, and I remember watching my wife get thoroughly annoyed by them.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

I'm almost certain these kinds of quest exist for all the classes, I remember CNJ had them, and I remember watching my wife get thoroughly annoyed by them.

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You can get the generic "don't stand in melee range or you'll get hit" as BLM but I remember learning the Fire/Ice stuff from pop up help menus not actual quests and encounters. Early Pugilist doesn't straight up teach positionals either that I can remember, NIN does a pretty decent job with the vs Oboron stuff that is best done with good mudra use, I guess.... Early arcanist doesn't teach you how to use your pets effectively...

Maybe healers and tanks do get more out of class quests. DPS could use some love in the "give us guidance" department.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

I can't comment on all classes, but Gladiator specifically has class quests that do exactly what you are saying. In one of them you have to fend off incoming waves of enemies while defending an NPC and he suggests things like using flash.

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*cough*

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Originally Posted by Ayuhra

What if, for Gladiators, the quest where you fend off the mercenaries for your companion had the companion explaining Flash in lore friendly ways?

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It is suggested to use Flash to protect said companion, yes. What Ayuhra seemed to be getting at was a more lore-friendly explanation of why Flash draws aggro to you ^^
(And now my brain is suggesting to me to make a macro going "I'm too sexy for my {Flash} ♪", which is a clear sign that I should close my laptop and try to get some sleep xD)

I don't remember my gladiator quests, but I think Flash is something like using the sword to reflect a source of light directly into someone's line of sight. It IS really enraging IRL and also causes a "blind" effect just like camera flashes...

Also the Archer quests does wonders on learning the game. My first character started as an archer, and it helped me greatly with dodging AOEs, positioning to avoid placing puddles into my companions, focused damage and diffuse damage, stealthness to not aggro a whole room on dungeons like some people do and also timing your DoTs, something people tend to have problems with and end up losing lots of damage because of that.

so many things to list.

1. Tanks that flash/overpower once and then only focusing on one mob and then wonder why mobs are all over the place.
2. DPS that clearly don't know how to play there class - not expecting flawless rotations in dungeon runs but I mean people who really really don't know what there doing.
3. Can't dodge the simplest of mechanics when you have a clear indicator on the floor.
4. Above people trying to do coil/savage/ex
5. Above people who think there good and blames other people
6. Above people who ignore the party - language barriers are not an excuse if you don't understand English unclick English in your duty finder >.<
7. New drk's who don't have a clue about tanking picking one up at level 30 and well yea don't have provoke or foresight and don't know how a tank works

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Originally Posted by Yurihyuga

don't have foresight

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Uh...how is this a bad thing? Foresight is complete garbage.

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Originally Posted by Ayuhra

One thing this game does that I love is have class specific quests. I feel like these quests could be used for story AND to teach people base mechanics a bit better.

What if the first quest as a Thaumaturge involved you learning how Astral Fire and Umbral Ice worked? What if, for Gladiators, the quest where you fend off the mercenaries for your companion had the companion explaining Flash in lore friendly ways? It is surprising how many tanks I encounter don't use Flash at low levels (Glad tanks specifically, I know Marauders might not have it). What if the early Pugilist quests taught you how to dance and weave around your enemies and pointed out, plainly, that it is the best way to play your class?

These things won't eliminate lazy, but they'd be a resource for those willing to learn the game.

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This is incredibly needed, I decided to finish up monk, I hit 60, went to do the final quest, I started the quest fight, the door ringed, I thought, damn, well I guess I'll start over, went to answer the door, had a chat with my friend, he went home, made a sandwich, forgot I had FFXIV open, look at my screen, I cleared the fight apparently purely on auto attacks WHILE afk. I was shocked, because I remember at least in 2.0 they quest required a little bit of atention and I remember back in the day I died at least 1 time trying to clear the final monk quest.

Seriously, is the difficulty non existent for anything here? The playerbase in this game are seriously bad, and the answer to everything from SE's part is to dumb down content, instead of teaching them how to play properly.

After I finished my monk quest I grouped with a few people outside of my static to do alexander normal and I ran into some gems:

A bard that just smashed buttons.
A dragoon who din't bother to avoid mechanics saying healing it's the healers job.
A Dark Knight asking people to do less DPS because we are stealing his hate, the guy was nearly fully geared in esoterics.

This attitude is SE's fault and their mentality to nerf down the content down so this people can continue doing this, it doesn't help, this person drags the group down, you hear the common excuse that it's their sub and they are entitled to play whatever way they want, sure, that's nice, but I'm also paying a sub and by playing this bad you are affecting my experience. If you make any comment about it, they come post to the forums and how the community is hostile or how you hurt their feelings by politely telling them they are lazy at playing the game or have a mental breakdown.

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Originally Posted by Elazu

Uh...how is this a bad thing? Foresight is complete garbage.

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No it isn't. On big pulls it does wonders to make some time for the healer and I can clearly tell the difference when a tank is and isn't using it. Of course it's no Rampart, but it helps a lot.

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Originally Posted by Elazu

Uh...how is this a bad thing? Foresight is complete garbage.

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It's a pretty crappy mitigation skill and certainly not to be relied on for a tank buster, but it's a "free" skill that can be used anyway, so there's no reason for NOT picking it up or refusing to flat-out using it. While it has become stronger due to higher defense rating scaling, it's nowhere near the best cooldown, but it still has its uses by reducing incoming fluff damage, or pairing it up with other defensive cooldowns that need a little extra umph or are not guaranteed to work, therefore generating an extra safety measure in case RNG decides to have its way with you; Bulwark and Dark Dance come to mind. Foresight is free mitigation, and I'm not one to turn down a free lunch.

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Originally Posted by Elazu

Uh...how is this a bad thing? Foresight is complete garbage.

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It's certainly a lot better than Featherfoot (IMO), which I had the interesting experience of seeing a tank kick in every pull in a dungeon. Sometimes he'd wait around for ages before pulling, and I secretly suspect he was waiting for Featherfoot cooldown ^^; (Since he was French-only and my knowledge of French pretty much extends to 'merci' and 'svp', I couldn't exactly ask why he was so insistent on using it, but I did manage to auto-translate to ask him to put his tank stance back on when I realized that was why he kept losing aggro on mobs...)

A Bad Player...I guess someone who refuses to learn or get better. Mistakes are made no matter the level, not everyone has epic gear and everyone has a different play style, but if said play style isn't working and not only hurting you, but your party...and then your a sore sport when someone points it out (in a respectful manner), then that makes a bad player IMO.

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Originally Posted by Coatl

A bad Healer = Most of them. They are like all bad really.

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How dare you?! And you're in my server; wait till I see you around... :(

Players who don't listen to wise calls in PVP

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Originally Posted by Odett

It's a pretty crappy mitigation skill and certainly not to be relied on for a tank buster, but it's a "free" skill that can be used anyway, so there's no reason for NOT picking it up or refusing to flat-out using it. While it has become stronger due to higher defense rating scaling, it's nowhere near the best cooldown, but it still has its uses by reducing incoming fluff damage, or pairing it up with other defensive cooldowns that need a little extra umph or are not guaranteed to work, therefore generating an extra safety measure in case RNG decides to have its way with you; Bulwark and Dark Dance come to mind. Foresight is free mitigation, and I'm not one to turn down a free lunch.

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Wouldn't the choice be between Foresight and Awareness though?

A fair number of things can make a player a bad player, but the same things don't always make player bad.

It's important to know the difference between a bad player, an inexperienced player, and an ignorant player.

A bad player IMO is a player who doesn't care about others and when you tell them that they suck and try to give them advice, they refuse to listen/don't care/react aggressively. It's a multi-player game, when doing group content, you should at least try to do your best playing your job properly in order to not hurt the other players' experience. At least properly if not in the most optimal way. A good player will always try to improve and listen to the advices he can get from other experienced people. A bad player is that one guy who doesn't give a shit about it and will react aggressively when they're told that they suck. These players should uninstall the game and go play solo FF titles.

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Originally Posted by Elazu

Wouldn't the choice be between Foresight and Awareness though?

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That may be a matter of personal preference. If we're talking low levels (like a fresh DRK), then we have three slots to play with.

My personal choice is :
1. Provoke
2. Bloodbath
3. Convalescence

If that's what you were referring to, then yeah, Foresight is the least desirable and should be done away with for now. You could argue that it's better for mass pulls compared to Bloodbath, since Unleash counts as magical damage, but none of that is going on in these low level dungeons anyway. You COULD do away with Provoke since it's not exactly "required", but it's a pretty good safety measure if your healer lets you die midway boss fight and you gotta re-establish agro, and it's also useful for pulling certain patrols where Unmend won't reach. IF you choose to do away with Provoke for now, then you'll have a choice of Foresight or Awareness. Again, it comes down to personal choice. I myself would choose a skill that grants you guaranteed mitigation, no matter how small, over something that might protect you from an attack that MIGHT happen. If there were more monsters in low level dungeons that had a high crit rate, then yeah, I'd agree with you.