Any reason to launch A4 Savage as an impossible raid?

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Originally Posted by Erim-Nelhah

This is kinda what I'm worried about myself. If A4S requires the best players in the world to be i200+ to defeat, then how are people who, for whatever reason, can only bring themselves to, say, 85-90% of that performance level supposed to beat it before the next ilvl bump (i.e. while it's still relevant) at all? And don't say "git gud", folks. Sometimes even just lag can make that much difference.

Here's hoping that the gear requirement isn't quite that high.

--Erim Nelhah

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Its called savage, it is supposed to be HARD.

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Originally Posted by Erim-Nelhah

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Ilvl 200 for the entire group becomes more approachable as you get esotaric tomestone get and savage drops from floors 1, 2, and 3. That's where the progression aspect of gearing comes in. But we haven't gotten that far anyway, even if a group is extremely lucky with diversed drops, they wouldn't have more than 2 or 4 people that are above ilvl200

I personally don't like the gear gating concept. When I heard Alex Savage, I was expecting SCoB Savage style mechanics. Instead of getting intense mechanics, we got gear checks. The argument that these encounters are hard is incorrect. The mechanics in and of themselves aren't anything special from what I have seen. They are mostly gear checks and will make the encounters laughable in no time. The majority of players couldn't beat Savage SCoB in full Dreadwyrm/Ironwork BiS at lvl 50 and that was outgearing the content. That is how it should be, hardest content should actually be difficult, not locked behind gear.

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Originally Posted by Parasitic

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Then you'll have a group of the community complaining that its too hard, as a lot of people did with Second Coil.

Thing that sucks is the world 1st clear is not gonna go to the most skilled group it will probably go to the luckiest group who got the better drops for there raid comp

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Originally Posted by DreameR7g

Then you'll have a group of the community complaining that its too hard, as a lot of people did with Second Coil.

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I was under the impression normal mode was for those people.

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Originally Posted by Parasitic

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Usually those who say Second Coil is too hard also complains that Normal mode is too easy. It's the middle man which complains the most.

New raid content with normal and savage after all the complaints of raids being too easy in 2.0, and now you're saying the new raid savage is too hard and feel impossible... Isn't that what, Oh I dunno, a whole lot of end-game raiders asked for? And what would happen if a lot of people did pass it? "Blah blah blah Alex savage too easy! WTH SE give us something difficult, something that feels "impossible to beat!" I swear I heard someone say that in SCoB savage and/or FCoB.

This is just one of those time where I rarely say, deal with it. You got what you asked for, so just sit there and enjoy it.

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Originally Posted by DreameR7g

Usually those who say Second Coil is too hard also complains that Normal mode is too easy. It's the middle man which complains the most.

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I personally cannot see how Alexander normal is "too easy." For me, it was one of the more challenging things the first time around.

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Originally Posted by Parasitic

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I didn't play when BCoB was current (it was DF'd and echo'd by the time I got to 50), but I was around for SCoB before the nerf/DF, and FCoB on release.
Second Coil (and by extension, SCoB savage) was imo "hard" for all the wrong reasons. The gear check wasn't really there, it was all oriented to playing the mechanics and the mechanics only. If you mucked up just one one of the persisting mechanics, it didn't make it significantly harder to clear for that attempt, no, it was a total party wipe.

FCoB was ideal for me. It had hard number/gear checks with how much the tank busters did, the urgency of dpsing adds/phasing, and healers keeping the party alive. Mechanics were also there and messing them up would create huge bumps on the road, but they weren't spot checks that would lead to a total party kill for messing up.

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

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Yeah, for your personal viewpoint, it is. However, in terms of its design, its meant for the general population to farm out their ass, to gear up with. Alexander Savage is where its like Coil where its meant for a challenge to overcome. A long term goal to work towards.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Ilvl 200 average is still considered pretty damn high. That's full eso and acessories. Most people at this week would be inching raound 195, unless they got extremely lucky with gordian drops and was fed all of them (and then it'd only be one or two individual out of the entire party). If something like A4S required a minimum of everyone being 210 then yes, that would be a problem in design. But that's not the case since I doubt anyone is even at ilvl200 average atm, let alone the entire party.

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I'm highest in our raid at ilvl 198. Ring from a1 + 4 page turn ins for the earrings. Boots plus upgrade thingy from a2 which I used on the belt. So 4 pieces of Savage gear.

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

Probably due to industry standards that are just bad..

Making bosses that are purely number checks just isn't a good boss design. And enrage timers could have been made more out of than just "lol times up, now fuck off".

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A1S and A2S are heavy gear checks. The real fun starts with A3S, thats where it starts to get mechanic heavy while still having a gear check. A1 and 2 are pretty dull to be fair in comparison.

As4 gear reqs eso gear either full set upgraded or Savage Gordian gear then learn the mechanics

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

A1S and A2S are heavy gear checks. The real fun starts with A3S, thats where it starts to get mechanic heavy while still having a gear check. A1 and 2 are pretty dull to be fair in comparison.

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how is a2s a gearcheck? the enrage timer is laughable, most groups kill it with nearly 1 minute left till enrage, a1 isnt that bad too

the fun starts with a3

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Originally Posted by SuperZay

Lmao at this game's apologist community.

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Are you implying that this game's community of entitled players who whine and moan about gear requirements is any better...?

Cuz it's not.

A- Players complain that raids are to easy

B- Players complain they are too hard

C- Players complain they made a dungeon too hard and you need gear and skill to complete..

If I was a developer id be beating my head against a wall..

Why do gear and skill checks need to be mutually exclusive? Ideally, a properly balanced game will have a little bit of both.

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Originally Posted by SasukeUchiha81

A- Players complain that raids are to easy
B- Players complain they are too hard
C- Players complain they made a dungeon too hard and you need gear and skill to complete..

If I was a developer id be beating my head against a wall..

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You always have that response because we are humans. If you take twins with the same skill it can happen that one of them feels like the content is too hard while the other feels like the content is too easy!

As Developer you have to find a balance and the problem is if you lock progress behind something just 10% of the whole playerbase can pass through... Its not a matter of "easy" and "hard" mode if you have to pass hard mode to progress with gear. Thats why most developers are designing content "easy".

One way to make it harder is when players begin to challenge themselves with fastest speedrun, server first kills, undergeared, underleveled clear or restriction in what items to use and so on. You can always make it harder!

To make it easier there are some ways with leveling up and overpowering or with gearing up and overpowering, but both we can not do in FFXIV and even then we have the very long waiting for the next patch until we finally can make it easier... They need to release it at same time to give players the choice and not waiting for next patch!

Look at Zelda games, challenge does not come from "DPS-checks" neither from "onehits"... its more like trial and error, but we dont have that in FFXIV because its like "error = death"

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Originally Posted by SasukeUchiha81

A- Players complain that raids are to easy

B- Players complain they are too hard

C- Players complain they made a dungeon too hard and you need gear and skill to complete..

If I was a developer id be beating my head against a wall..

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Actually most people argue that bosses are too hard or too easy, assuming that the only thing which make a raid interesting is its difficulty.

But that s simply not the case. Bosses must be interesting and fun. The difficulty of an encounter can contribute to the value of the encounter, but one cannot just make a very hard, but boring, boss (like those in alexander savage) and expect players to find the raid interesting.

I'm sorry but from a veteran raider from FFXI, wow and even wildsta,r alexander savage is just garbage. Last time I saw such crappy bosses on a game design standpoint (not saying they are easy) was BEFORE wow vanilla (which was released in 2004). I don't know why they'd do that, as Scob and fcob were quite good on a game design standpoint.

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Gear progression is an important element in traditional RPGs and should remain one of the requirements for beating savage.

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While it is true that gear progression is a common element in MMORPG (I won't say important, as it is just an artificial way for the developpers to make players keep playing the game), generally there are more than 4 bosses in any given tier of raids of games using such gearing mechanics.

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Originally Posted by SuperZay

Reason why A4S has not been cleared is not because of real dificulty, that is to say some complicated mechanics or such. It is simply an unreachable gear check at the moment so the fight is literaly impossible as of right now. Maybe in a few weeks for world first teams, and in 2-3 months for regular statics. Basically SE tells us gear > skills.

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So you'd rather steamroll it within a week, then spend the next 5 months complaining that the content was too easy?

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

I personally cannot see how Alexander normal is "too easy." For me, it was one of the more challenging things the first time around.

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Different strokes (and experiences). Alex normal was faceroll easy for me, but I raided the middle to hardest content in WoW for years. I've seen LFR modes that were more demanding than Alex normal (though to be fair, not by much, and 3 people carrying the rest was very real.)

The sad truth of it is that when you have only two tiers of difficulty but the skill of the player base varies among three (high, middle, low), someone's camp is going to be alienated. I think no one expected it to be the middle group when you factor in the easy content that exists already such as expert roulette and 24mans later on.

Sure echo/tomes will eventually catch up those who can sleep through normal, but don't have the discipline for savage, but if their focus is raiding, they'll likely be quite bored in the meanwhile.

Yoshida has come out recently in a Famitsu interview addressing the difficulty of Savage Alexander.

A1 and 2 Savage were intentionally designed to be FCoB tier in difficulty, while A3S and A4S were designed to be SCoB SAVAGE difficulty.

For added context lets go down and breakdown how raiding tiers work, between FFXIV and WoW. Usually, the general opinion of worldly seasoned raiders during Coil were that while original coils were harder than your bottom tier WoW raiding, Heroic tier (Think SCoB Savage) was considered harder.

That being said, when SCoB Savage first came out, literally everyone I know would describe Savage at its intended level was harder than any raid fight in WoW. At full i110 BiS, it took the top tier raiders a full MONTH to down T9 Savage.

The latter half of Alexander were designed with this mentality in mind, and we didnt get 3 1/5 months to gear up and prepare for it. A4S has been built to be the hardest fight in this game period. This is probably the hardest fight a majority of these raiders have seen in their entire MMO career. It's not just a gear issue, these fights are built to curb stomp you into the dirt.

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That being said, when SCoB Savage first came out, literally everyone I know would describe Savage at its intended level was harder than any raid fight in WoW.

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It makes no sense to make those sort of comparisons. Mostly due to the fact that people who play at the highest level on wow (method, parangon) simply aren't those who plays at the highest level on FFXIV. FFXIV is not a game taken very seriously amongst the raiding community because it simply isn't a game which cater to the raiders.

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This is probably the hardest fight a majority of these raiders have seen in their entire MMO career.

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What does "hardest" mean ? If you talk about "impossible bosses to kill until a certain item level is reached" then wow had its share of boss like that (Cthun, Kael Thas, LK HM, ...). Also as I said "hard" doesn 't equate to "fun".

Also if you take a look at the wow historical raiding world first timeline : http://manaflask.com/en/world-firsts , you can see that a lot of bosses lived more than 30 days.

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Originally Posted by Stanelis

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Its kinda sad how you can see those world first dates get smaller and smaller as WoW progressed...

Another thing to keep in mind is the nature of WoW vs XIV raids. Majority if not all of WoW's raids are 10+ players, compared to FFXIV's 8. To compensate, WoW limits your amount of revives in a fight, while XIV allows for unlimited revives, but with weakness as a punishment, which might as well equal TPK in A3 and A4S with how tight those DPS checks can get. While ideally you should have zero deaths period, you can afford a couple slips in your typical Mythic raid, death in XIV's raids comes at a far greater cost.

Not to mention not just DPS checks, but timing on the completion of mechanics are tight in A4S. For example poor timing between the killing legs and quarantine will guarantee a TPK 100% with zero solution other than git gud.


Overall from personal experience, there more going on in A4S delaying clears than just "muh gear check".

some more gear would help though...

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Originally Posted by HorseBoots

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You also gotta keep in context with how raiding has changed in WoW throughout it's expansion. C'thun lived for as long as he did because for for a period, he was literally impossible to beat numbers-wise.

TBC, while raid instances were technically released at the same time, were also gated with each other and had a lineiar progression. This is also when they added justice/valor points (think tomestones) as an alternative way to gear up so you weren't stuck with uncooperative boss drops.

WotLK had limited attempts which cut down how much progression you could actually put in per reset. It was only until Catacylsm and onward did they get rid of the limited attempts for heroic bosses, and the previous difficulties (including LFR, or the "crystal tower" difficulty) having entirely different loot lockout resets, thus making gearing even more accessible to meet checks.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

That means that any gear requirements need to be designed with current best in mind, not several months down the line when we're all packing level 250 god-tier equipment.

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I'm sure it is clearable with average ilevel 210 (highest ilevel the moment Alex S came out).

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Originally Posted by SuperZay

First and foremost, we are paying customers and shouldn't allow ourselves to be treated like that.

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You pay real money to get server access, not to get content clears.

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Originally Posted by Verius_Nox

So you'd rather steamroll it within a week, then spend the next 5 months complaining that the content was too easy?

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If best of the best groups can't clear it within a week it means that average players like me have completely no chances. So why even bother trying then?

Then don't try. Secondly "fun" is subjective and I certainly think harder content is fun. Further more this has nothing to do with wow.

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Originally Posted by Priya

Different strokes (and experiences). Alex normal was faceroll easy for me, but I raided the middle to hardest content in WoW for years. I've seen LFR modes that were more demanding than Alex normal (though to be fair, not by much, and 3 people carrying the rest was very real.)

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The fact that 3 people could carry a 25 man team in LFR but *can't* carry an 8 man team in Alex normal just means the challenge is different. Because it really wasn't really hard, WoW LFR. It wasn't a gear check, it was a mechanics check. No more.

And I've duo'd Durumu from 60% with a bear tank and my rsham.


Once people got gear, the idiot DPS taking an orb in A4 isn't getting one shot by lazers. The tank can take three, four in a row without *needing* heals between all of them. Etc.

TL:DR, FFXIV fights are midcore mechanics, high gear check.
WoW's fights are mechanics checks, gear is laughable.

That's why the raids are cleared within hours of launch.

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Originally Posted by vp_cmc

If best of the best groups can't clear it within a week it means that average players like me have completely no chances. So why even bother trying then?

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its no content for average players, dont even attempt it, go alex normal if you want to experience the story

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Originally Posted by Stanelis

It makes no sense to make those sort of comparisons. Mostly due to the fact that people who play at the highest level on wow (method, parangon) simply aren't those who plays at the highest level on FFXIV. FFXIV is not a game taken very seriously amongst the raiding community because it simply isn't a game which cater to the raiders.



What does "hardest" mean ? If you talk about "impossible bosses to kill until a certain item level is reached" then wow had its share of boss like that (Cthun, Kael Thas, LK HM, ...). Also as I said "hard" doesn 't equate to "fun".

Also if you take a look at the wow historical raiding world first timeline : http://manaflask.com/en/world-firsts , you can see that a lot of bosses lived more than 30 days.

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C'thun was actually unkillable due to a bug, not because of gear.

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Originally Posted by Parasitic

I was under the impression normal mode was for those people.

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those people made this thread

well, i knew something was familiar about that topic...

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/67805...eborn/72347271

anyway, now it's just a matter of time until FireMage7777 shows up and they start to fight each other even on this forum...

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Originally Posted by vp_cmc

If best of the best groups can't clear it within a week it means that average players like me have completely no chances. So why even bother trying then?

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It's endgame content. By definition, it's not meant for the average player. Eventually it'll get echo and possibly mechanical nerfs and go into Duty Finder, but right now it's brand new and very, very pertinent for progression.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

The fact that 3 people could carry a 25 man team in LFR but *can't* carry an 8 man team in Alex normal just means the challenge is different. Because it really wasn't really hard, WoW LFR. It wasn't a gear check, it was a mechanics check. No more.

And I've duo'd Durumu from 60% with a bear tank and my rsham.


Once people got gear, the idiot DPS taking an orb in A4 isn't getting one shot by lazers. The tank can take three, four in a row without *needing* heals between all of them. Etc.

TL:DR, FFXIV fights are midcore mechanics, high gear check.
WoW's fights are mechanics checks, gear is laughable.

That's why the raids are cleared within hours of launch.

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Durumu was actually the exact fight I was thinking of. Neither normal Alex nor WoW LFR are hard, but my point was that fights like Durumu and Ji-Kun had more to watch out for in LFR than normal Alex does even if you could basically duo LFR Durumu. I think you said it better/more clearly than I did.

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Originally Posted by Priya

Durumu was actually the exact fight I was thinking of. Neither normal Alex nor WoW LFR are hard, but my point was that fights like Durumu and Ji-Kun had more to watch out for in LFR than normal Alex does even if you could basically duo LFR Durumu. I think you said it better/more clearly than I did.

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Durumu was a bitch if you had a crap computer, simply due to how the maze rendering worked.

They actually had a number of hotfixes due to that specific mechanic having rendering issues.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

It's endgame content. By definition, it's not meant for the average player. Eventually it'll get echo and possibly mechanical nerfs and go into Duty Finder, but right now it's brand new and very, very pertinent for progression.

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I don't see any reason to echo and nerf Savage to be honest, seeing as the reason they did before was to open coil for those who couldnt do it orioginal and wanted to see the story. Hopefully they dont nerf/echo it like they didnt with SCoB savage.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

I don't see any reason to echo and nerf Savage to be honest, seeing as the reason they did before was to open coil for those who couldnt do it orioginal and wanted to see the story. Hopefully they dont nerf/echo it like they didnt with SCoB savage.

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Yeah, I don't see any reason for it either but people are already gonna be crying for the i210 gear cause dyeable.

There literally was no reason to nerf SCoB savage, you couldn't get anything there that wasn't already available.

looks like Elysium cleared A4S https://gyazo.com/58082bfb6a39465af17f4317f7cd060c