Something need to be done about BAD DPS.

My personal take is that parsers are a double edged sword. Sure they'll help players easily tell how much their dps is in an easy to see and comprehend manner. As such, quite a few players would eeek out whatever they can to improve their overall rotation and dps. Cool beans. However... It won't fix the bad dps, just make them stand out more. Also, say if you get a new person who doesn't quite measure up to someone's standards (new to instance or just new to game in general), there would be ridicule to no end at said underperformer instead of constructive feedback. And you know that one random that's near bottom of the list that gets harped on for being near the bottom, maybe (as mentioned before) said dps was actually dodging things, taking care of mechanics, etc. Just the almighty dps number would matter and rankings in group of who's a "superstar" and "scrub". Even if it's just for the individual's eyes only, I bet 1 mil gil that there will be some PF groups popping up that will mandate a minimum magical dps numbers for Ex trials or Alex content. I saw it mentioned earlier in the thread that it would give people a reason to state that "low dps" was reason for kicking from group. While that may be warranted at times, it will also be used to harass others and add another layer of toxicity into the mix. I've seen it before with parsers elsewhere and I could easily see it happening here.

I would personally be happy if I never heard the word parser uttered ever again. People are so fixated on it being the fix all for every dps issue... Observing threat meters to at least have a general idea of how I hold up and observing the overall fight progress has worked for me so far. Never been singled out for being "a bad dps" and usually remove myself from group if I can tell I'm performing poorly enough.

I am an older player who really enjoys the story and Final Fantasy XIV. I have arthritis which does slow me down slightly. I do not play Ex's or Raids because I do not have the coordination to do so. I am thankful that SE has mad a game that I can still play.

I am not a terrible player but threads like this are quite annoying to me. Not everyone has the capacity to be great. We are not "stupid" for not having quick eye / hand coordination. The story is great and believe everyone should be able to play. I use DF mostly and get mostly nice people but dang some of you are such elitists that you think someone who doesn't fit your thoughts of a good player.... are stupid? really?

This whole thing reminds me of witch-hunting. Take a breathe?

Parsers will not give us more jerks than we already have, but they WILL give said jerks a megaphone. That is always something to consider.

My own position...I guess I am more for them than not.

What a handy tool they are. I have reached the point where I sit out on 99% of my guild's activities. I stick around because I like them as people but I keep to my own because I don't want to hold them back. Because I am an awful BLM. Or...so I assume. But people commend me... Maybe my ability to maintain Enochian puts my damage higher than I think. Maybe my familiarity with the content I do helps me know when to move more than I know. Without a parser I can't be sure. And without a parser I just tend to assume I am doing laughably bad.

Gale Valerian: Worst BLM on Gilgamesh. Maybe. Probably. Could also be one of the better ones. Hard to say for certain.

For me this is my fatalistic thinking in action but surely there are others in my boat. Sometimes not knowing is more stressful than knowing.

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Originally Posted by Ayuhra

For me this is my fatalistic thinking in action but surely there are others in my boat. Sometimes not knowing is more stressful than knowing.

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See this is the type of thinking we need

It's better to know than not know, to have a goal to strive for outside of weekly esoterics grind.

Encouraging player improvement should never be seen as bad thing.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

Exactly. People have a right to suck. They pay just like everybody else. There is no reason to remove them from a duty. The last time I checked that was not one of the reasons listed for removal. This thread is a joke and the jokers in it are something else. Reminds me of A1 when a number of new people were playing for the first time during the first week and this one scholar after a wipe on the first series started to tell people that if their DPS was less than 600 they should leave and went on to tell the entire party what each members dps was. Suffice it to say that scholar was removed from the duty for harassment before starting again.

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I too, pay. If people have a right to suck, then I have a right to not have these people waste my time because someone is doing sub 500 in i180 gear.

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Originally Posted by BreathlessTao

Yeah, why not just allow us to script the absolute best rotations and AoE dodging, so that the game can do it? Then every job would be doing the exact same things all the time and we wouldn't be hearing all this BS whining about bad DPS.
As extra punishment, our faces could be ripped off, our bodies snapped in half, and our souls thrown in the deepest pits of hell, never ever to see daylight again. So that we'd surely not ever come back to ruin your game for you.

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Bad dps don't ruin the game. They only ruin the parties they happen to join. Just like bad tanks and bad healers. However, tossing their souls into the pits of hell sounds like a surefire way to make groups more successful, if not more entertaining. :)

Good players don't need a parser to know if one or another isn't playing his class very well.
And not good players shouldn't use a parser since they won't be able to correctly interpret the results.

DF, personal parsers only, with options to turn them off. Full premade, add settings to display party DPS, every member must select to display parser, which shows party leader a chart of all the partys parsers.

Then PF parties can set requirements to show your parser, and for those who want to join PF partys but don't want to show their parsers, they can make their own PF.

Sorted ^^

I personally have no issue with people playing how they want, but when it comes to me being in a group where people aren't pulling their weight I'll kindly tell the group that with what we have we won't be able to clear and leave. If I'm the head I'll tell the weak link he needs to step it up or face getting removed as they're holding others back. I don't think parsers are bad, just how some people take them as pretty much the bible. I've seen some pretty rude people rip into others over minor differences but at the same time I like to know how I'm doing over all on certain parts.

It would be good to find out how I do. I main tanks and healers so as a DPS, I tend to suck. I go with the usualy weaving oGCD between GCD stuffs because that's the rule of the game but when it comes to "optimal" rotation, I just can't do it because I tend to forget about it and roll with whatever I have at the time.

I have no comment on parsers but jerks will always be jerks with or without it. Parsers just give them another excuse to be one.

It's a game with a myriad of kinds of people. There's bounds to be people that doesn't play the game as you do and you have to respect that. If he pulls the team down or make mistakes that costs the group, tell him that and if he doesn't step it up, kick him. He'll learn what he did wrong or not, but at least he's out of your life.

I've seen many DPS who straight up refuse to play the job efficiently because they refuse to take advice from other people. They are nice people but when I say "Can you please at least Flare once in a while? We need very big aoe." and they flip their s**t. It's what people do. They mistake every criticism as an insult and tunnel their ideas into this one big sentence: "I am the Best."

Get rid of console players. They drag the game's design down anyways. We can't even have TP meters because this game has to be developed to run on toasters.

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Originally Posted by rzr22

Get rid of console players. They drag the game's design down anyways. We can't even have TP meters because this game has to be developed to run on toasters.

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https://blueollie.files.wordpress.co...pg?w=320&h=371

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Originally Posted by rzr22

Get rid of console players. They drag the game's design down anyways. We can't even have TP meters because this game has to be developed to run on toasters.

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http://i.imgur.com/T7C01b4.jpg

realtalk tho here's your fix to bad dps:

-help them understand how to improve
-kick them or leave if they're buttheads about it or very obviously not trying
-stop pugging and go outside or something. meet some friends. talk about women's undergarments in idyllshire. i'm sure you'll find capable players to party with that way

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Originally Posted by rzr22

Get rid of console players. They drag the game's design down anyways. We can't even have TP meters because this game has to be developed to run on toasters.

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That's complete and utter bull, Console players usually work harder and are sometimes better than PC players & I use both.

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Originally Posted by StrejdaTom

only a parser that would be tied to dummy would be a nice especially if it would show average DPS for each job.
There even could be a quest when your job master would send you to a dummy and you would have to reach a certain number to finish that quest. :D He could give you a few advices how to reach that DPS.

Of course the quest wont say don't come back untill you do 800 DPS. It could be - fight the dummy until it is nearly broken.

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to make something like that with your Master/Sensei/Trainer would be best, maybe even within a solo Dungeon your Master/Sensei/Trainer send you to, that is basically a "base" DPS check(depending on the DPS role you play) and could be made right before you "Unlock" the "Hard mode/Savage Mode" thing or something like that.
and the same should also be made for all other Jobs and Classes(Tanking and Healing)

just my 2cents, i don't know.

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Originally Posted by elemental10

their ideas into this one big sentence: "I am the Best."

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this sentence applies to anyone on both sides of the fence....

Mei

I run into bad tanks and bad healers far more often than I run into bad DPS.

Not only are they unable to play their job properly, they are constantly whining and blaming someone else. Surprisingly, if they actually leave the party instead of spending 30 minutes standing still inside the dungeon yapping about how much everyone else sucks, once they get replaced by someone else, we usually win.

I'd rather play with a bad DPS than an holier-than-thou tank.

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Originally Posted by Totobi

There really needs to be some sort of in-game guide on how to play your class atleast somewhat competently, perhaps tied in with the job quests. It is incredibly frustrating how regularly you meet DPS who cannot even out-dps a PALADIN IN SHIELD OATH.

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I don't think bad players are exclusively DPS. I see plenty of bad tanks who can't (or don't bother to) hold aggro. I see plenty of healers that I have to raise (as a SMN) because they don't dodge stuff.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

DF, personal parsers only, with options to turn them off. Full premade, add settings to display party DPS, every member must select to display parser, which shows party leader a chart of all the partys parsers.

Then PF parties can set requirements to show your parser, and for those who want to join PF partys but don't want to show their parsers, they can make their own PF.

Sorted ^^

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Cool. I'll just copy and paste this one line in and we'll get that working right away.

Because that's how easy it is.

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Originally Posted by Krr

realtalk tho here's your fix to bad dps:

-help them understand how to improve
-kick them or leave if they're buttheads about it or very obviously not trying
-stop pugging and go outside or something. meet some friends. talk about women's undergarments in idyllshire. i'm sure you'll find capable players to party with that way

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How are we supposed to do the first two when we aren't supposed to know who sucks though? O.o

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Originally Posted by cgbspender

This whole thing reminds me of witch-hunting. Take a breathe?

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Yeah, i don't think this will change attitudes for the better anymore than getting the raise spell abolished.

My only gripe is when people tell me my dps is low, like okay, but so what ?

Okay my dps is low but like do you know someone you can recommend to me or like good guides and stuff or tips don't just say it's bad because you're just gonna piss me off.

Not everyone is allergic to "gitting gud", I personally enjoy the feeling of helping the party in any way, if getting better at my dps does that then I will do it.

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Originally Posted by Noira

Okay my dps is low but like do you know someone you can recommend to me or like good guides and stuff or tips don't just say it's bad because you're just gonna piss me off.

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Research. Research. Research.

If you feel that your contribution is lacking, then you need to start learning why and how to get better. There are numerous posts and guides available (just google them) for every class and how to properly use their skills in a rotation to maximize their contribution. Read about your class, and don't just settle with one post and decide you've learned enough. Consume all of the information you can find because someone has probably found something that others haven't even thought of yet. There is no secret to getting better. You just research and learn.

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Originally Posted by Jozi

I am an older player who really enjoys the story and Final Fantasy XIV. I have arthritis which does slow me down slightly. I do not play Ex's or Raids because I do not have the coordination to do so. I am thankful that SE has mad a game that I can still play.

I am not a terrible player but threads like this are quite annoying to me. Not everyone has the capacity to be great. We are not "stupid" for not having quick eye / hand coordination. The story is great and believe everyone should be able to play. I use DF mostly and get mostly nice people but dang some of you are such elitists that you think someone who doesn't fit your thoughts of a good player.... are stupid? really?

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This, automatically assuming that every player who pulls below avg numbers is either stupid, or a lazy slob wanting to be carried is elitist and self absorbed. Just because you think the content/rotation or whatever is 'faceroll easy' doesn't mean every other player does. There is such a thing as skill, and some people simply don't have the hand/eye coordination or twitch reflexes, or ability to watch and remember and think of a dozen things at once. We have several older gamers in our fc, including a couple who are over 60, who are neither stupid or lazy, they simply do not have the physical skill to pull optimal numbers.

This is a game, and a weaker player may not want to (nor should be required to) marathon train on a training dummy, trying to work their fingers and brains to the max for hours a week. People don't all play for the same reasons, some play for challenge and to be the best possible they can be, some play to unwind after work, and just want to relax, run some dungeons, and have some fun.

HW did noticeably increase the complexity of dps rotations at the same time as adding more movement and more mechanics and more dps checks to fights. The overall difficulty of the game did get harder, and of course you're now going to see more people having difficulty keeping up.

And for the record, I am talking about players who do 70-80% efficiency on their rotations/buffs/oGCDs, NOT people who spam bliz1, or 1-2-3 combo and nothing but, ignoring positions. Some jobs are extremely unforgiving and only doing 70-80% of a perfect rotation can make your numbers plummet.

Those people either 1) Don't know or don't care how to play 2) Are trolling or 3) Something irl came up and they're temporarily hitting what buttons they comfortably can while dealing with it, rather than completely afk

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Originally Posted by Eisen-Zorn

Research. Research. Research.

If you feel that your contribution is lacking, then you need to start learning why and how to get better. There are numerous posts and guides available (just google them) for every class and how to properly use their skills in a rotation to maximize their contribution. Read about your class, and don't just settle with one post and decide you've learned enough. Consume all of the information you can find because someone has probably found something that others haven't even thought of yet. There is no secret to getting better. You just research and learn.

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This, basically. If you have the drive to improve, there are tons of sources available that you can find. Go to the DPS forums, go on youtube, and yes, look at MANY guides, not just one. I can't stress that last part enough. If rotations and advice differ, try them out yourself, see what works better. One guide may have a crappy MNK rotation, but have an amazing Perfect Balance rotation, another may have a much better core rotation; combine the best parts of both. Compile all the information you absorb, and learn WHY you do certain skills in a certain order instead of following a rotation word for word. That will let you become flexible at your job and even help you mold your own personal rotation that fits your playstyle.

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Originally Posted by seraseth

snip

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That's all very true. No one is arguing that you have to min-max, though. You don't have to do any of that unless you're raiding savage as soon as it comes out. The whole "min-max" and "nobody can play perfect" argument keeps being used again and again to derail the main topic of discussion at hand by people who think that your sub fee allows you to be an ice mage, a voiceless bard, a full thrust DRG, a mudra-less NIN (and son on) and not get kicked from a group.

I can't agree more with steeper DPS checks in the Class / Job quests themselves... Of course people can level and still find themselves in your instance without doing the quests. But at least it would be a better attempt at getting them up to par in general.

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Originally Posted by Odett

That's all very true. No one is arguing that you have to min-max, though. You don't have to do any of that unless you're raiding savage as soon as it comes out. The whole "min-max" and "nobody can play perfect" argument keeps being used again and again to derail the main topic of discussion at hand by people who think that your sub fee allows you to be an ice mage, a voiceless bard, a full thrust DRG, a mudra-less NIN (and son on) and not get kicked from a group.

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The argument about the "mandatory" min/max perspective that folks refer to comes up for reason. One thing about the internet, or forums specifically, is that most people do not specify details about what they are and are not referring to. The OP indirectly did based on the PLD in ShO comment, but most replies didn't (some of which just involved arguments against without noticing that little important bit of info from the OP). So why don't people do that? Well, a number of reasons. First and foremost is the literary skills and understanding of the English language. We're dealing with people that have problems with "your" and "you're". Then comes the fact that very few people are willing to read more than a few sentences from a post, much less bother to create one like that.

Apply these things to a given forum poster, and there's bound to be misunderstanding (or in some cases a direct understanding despite lack of information). Take it a step further and apply that mindset to people who play the game. You're going to encounter people who freak out that a WAR is doing more damage than a BRD or MCH at times due to ignorance on the part of the person freaking out. You're going to meet mouthbreathers that throw fits of rage that any player that happens to be undergeared is not dealing what they should at i190. Let's also not forget people that pop a vein because someone isn't giving 100% serious business output in a 4-man dungeon... including places like normal Sastasha. The fact they exist is reason enough for people to be cautious about others who do not express the little details that I mentioned. The cycle continues because of how we unfortunately are by nature, despite the general remedy being obvious to some of us.

I have never, ever seen anyone care about DPS output in a dungeon unless it was causing actual issues (the healer going OOM trying to keep the tank alive because things were dying too slowly). I'm sure it happens occasionally, but it is not a common thing at all.

People don't even care about DPS in story mode trials unless, again, it is causing problems. The only time I've seen people raise it as an issue is in things like EX Primals and Coil, where doing optimum DPS usually DOES matter. And, quite frankly, you shouldn't even be attempting the hardest tier of content until you are at least competent at your job to begin with.

If you're bad, expect a kick from me. If you came with your friends and they can tolerate your play style, then good, kick me instead.

I will not sit in an hour long dungeon because some people refuse to learn.

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

I have never, ever seen anyone care about DPS output in a dungeon unless it was causing actual issues (the healer going OOM trying to keep the tank alive because things were dying too slowly). I'm sure it happens occasionally, but it is not a common thing at all.

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Oh no, I care about it all the time. Even in dungeons. I care about the dps when I have 2 melees who chose to single target different targets in vault and I'm aoeing 4 targets and a snapshot of the mob hps are like 80, 80, 60, 60%. That's is terribly depressing (If you're confused, you may have low dps). I have played arr since launch and I'm tired of the abuse or no response when I either provide advice or instructions so my options are either leaving or staying and enduring it. Both are punishments.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

snip

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You could also argue that someone saying "we don't all play like drones" after someone says that a DPS's damage is lower than a PLD with Shield Oath on is purposely trying to derail a topic. Not one person in this thread has argued that you must play 100% efficiently all the time. Some players have said that they DO like doing that (myself included, because seeing big numbers is how I have fun), but no one has argued that everyone, or anyone, must do this. Instead, it's the same players using these "but nobody is perfect" arguments that try to derail the topic. Point of the matter is, if your DPS is less than a PLD with Shield Oath on, then as a DPS, you are not pulling your weight in a group. Does this matter in a roulette or most of this game's content? No, not really, it only makes the fight slower, but if a group is failing to meet a DPS check and you fall under this category, then you have every right to be either talked to to see what the problem is, or kicked.

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Originally Posted by Odett

You could also argue that someone saying "we don't all play like drones" after someone says that a DPS's damage is lower than a PLD with Shield Oath on is purposely trying to derail a topic. Not one person in this thread has argued that you must play 100% efficiently all the time. Some players have said that they DO like doing that (myself included, because seeing big numbers is how I have fun), but no one has argued that everyone, or anyone, must do this. Instead, it's the same players using these "but nobody is perfect" arguments that try to derail the topic. Point of the matter is, if your DPS is less than a PLD with Shield Oath on, then as a DPS, you are not pulling your weight in a group. Does this matter in a roulette or most of this game's content? No, not really, it only makes the fight slower, but if a group is failing to meet a DPS check and you fall under this category, then you have every right to be either talked to to see what the problem is, or kicked.

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Definitely. I was just stating why it comes up repeatedly. The drones comment was unnecessary, but I don't think I'd call that a derail attempt, rather than just someone "shockingly" insulting another person or group on the interwebz lol.

Lack of details, even if in some cases completely unnecessary, tends to bring up additional worries. Just how it is, and can sometimes be quite valid. Like in the context of the OP, while the PLD with Shield Oath was mentioned, are we talking 4-man dungeons here? Leveling content? An unrealistic expectation of 2 MNKs in a 4-man dungeon not successfully AoEing tons of mobs down as fast as BLMs would? Ex/Alex? Gear differences? I'm fairly certain a PLD in Shield Oath with Alex and Eso gear will outperform a fresh 60, even moreso a fresh BRD or MCH, for example. Etc. Lots of points not mentioned that can bring up a flag to pursue a counter argument.

"People have a right to suck" sounds a lot like "people have the right to be carried," which is so blatantly false.

People act like DPS don't have a job to do. What is the use of a player who can't out-dps a tank? In the opposite scenario, if a tank cannot out-threat a DPS, that tank is going to get kicked or verbally abused 90% of the time. Why do DPS get to be babied?

I wonder what would happen to these players if people started playing down to their level. You see a tome-hero player pulling 200 dps and decide, hey I guess that's all I have to do too! Everyone just can't be arsed, no one gets to clear anything... sounds fun.

Regarding the "people have the right to suck because they pay for the game" sentiment, that is absolutely true. Sometimes. If you're playing alone, then by all means play any way that you like. No one can or should tell you how to play and you are right, you pay for that experience so it should be your experience.

HOWEVER....

Once you start interacting with other players, you are now engaged with other paying subscribers. Using the "I pay to play how I want" argument no longer holds weight, because you are now affecting how others experience the game play as well. If you play poorly and as a result are causing other paying players to not be able to play efficiently, then they absolutely have a right to hold you accountable for it.

Your subscription does not make you more important than other players....everyone you interact with also has a subscription. This is an MMO - a multiplayer game at its core. You cannot consistently be detrimental to other players' experiences and then expect them to just /shrug and say "oh yeah, they pay for this game they can play how they want".

Don't play the victim.

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Originally Posted by Pison

Of course, there are those of us that have certain ... problems, making optimal gameplay not something that can be commonly done. Whether it's due to hands not pressing the buttons your mind is telling it to, or a complete inability to focus on more than one or two things at a time. I, for instance, cannot keep track of cooldowns/buffs/DoTs/AoEs to move out of the way of, as well as doing perfect rotations without messing something up regardless of how much practice is put into it due to some limitations my brain can process at the same time. I've played Bard, and only Bard, since 2.1 and I'm only an average player that can play to the absolute best every once in a while.

But I know who I am, and I stay out of content that's too much for me. No EX Primals or Alexander for a while, until Echo comes into play.

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Make that two of us! And I refuse to allow myself to be carried like a useless mannikin through content because it's not fair to the party.

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Originally Posted by BreathlessTao

snip the absolutely bang on correct summary and kudos to you for your bluntness! You are right.

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Can we have a whole community like Breathless, please?

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Originally Posted by Kaedan94

The game could outright tell you what the absolutely best rotation for DPS is and there would still be plenty of Bads. It has nothing to do with availability of knowledge... knowledge is abundant.

It comes down to attitude, plain and simple. There are simply some players that are either too lazy or too apathetic to be bothered. No amount of hand-holding will make them improve.

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They really screwed up the rewards for Bismarck Extreme, since few competent players have any incentive to do it again.

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Originally Posted by ziddyt

I wonder what would happen to these players if people started playing down to their level. You see a tome-hero player pulling 200 dps and decide, hey I guess that's all I have to do too! Everyone just can't be arsed, no one gets to clear anything... sounds fun.

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Maybe we should try that, we might find some enrage timers on bosses we never knew existed!