Naoki Yoshida, Balance the game please [War DPS TOO HIGH!]

This thread https://youtu.be/rYbetvkPA6I

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Originally Posted by Alphras

You are starting with 5 stacks and you use two defensive cooldowns for that? Have fun tanking savage. Also that is no rotation, that is an opener.

Edit: What parsing shows? Parsing shows that every compentent DRK will compete with a WAR until their TP runs dry if they are on the same target with the same gear. How that translates into real fights? Don't know. Up until today there haven't been any real fights in the game.

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Yes that is a damage rotation. Do you even want to go into a tanking rotation versus DRK who will be stuck in Grit with no Blood Weapon?

And no sorry, DRKs are not parsing anywhere close to warriors now. Maybe you are thinking pre-Dark Arts fix.

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Originally Posted by Ladon

And no sorry, DRKs are not parsing anywhere close to warriors now. Maybe you are thinking pre-Dark Arts fix.

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DRKs can parse in the mid 800s without Storm's Eye. Put them in a group with a WAR, and until they run out of TP they'll be doing similar damage.

Yes. If a warrior crits all 3 felcleave in a row! Which I have never seen happen as a warrior main.

9K Felcleaves? jeez.. My gear is optimal for a warrior OT, and even with full STR accessories; my highest non-ravana Felcleave crit has been close to 7k. Where are these warriors that run around spamming Felcleaves off GCD for gaurenteed 9k+ crits and how are they doing it?! :D

http://s3.amazonaws.com/rapgenius/fi...51_sarcasm.jpg

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Originally Posted by Ladon

Because Soul Eater is at the end of a combo. It isn't a burst skill and isn't an additional skill off of a combo chain like FC and C&S are. And if you want to get technical the effective potency of Soul Eater is 460 to Butcher Blocks 378 which is a much smaller gap than Fell Cleaves effective 675 potency to 518 potency of Carve and Split so the sustained damage is practically the same and we all know that DRKs can't sustain that type of damage for long before MP becomes and issue let alone the TP issues; both which Warriors don't have to deal with. And if you want to talk about the burst capabilities in say a 30 second timeframe, DRKs aren't even touching what Warriors are pushing out now.

Also if we were going to take Carve and Split off it's cooldown it would basically function like FC. That is a DRK will be able to push out 3 DA-C&S back to back and then will need about 20 seconds to get the mana back for another DA just like a warrior needs to rebuild wrath. And that of course leaves nothing to DA Soul Eater with meaning the Warrior is still pushing out higher potency combos than the DRK while the two of them rebuild their resource.

And yeah I guess you can only get 5 FCs in a minute. 60 seconds with Vengeance up, 62.5 seconds if it's down. This is with standard GCD of course:

FC -> Vengeance + Raw Intuition + 4(5) GCs for 3(4) more wrath (10 sec/12.5 sec) -> FC (2.5 sec) -> Infuriate -> FC (2.5 sec) -> Wrath rebuild + FC (22.5 sec) -> Wrath rebuild + FC (22.5 sec)

But really, all I am doing here is putting a lot of words to what the parsing already shows.

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In the ~42 seconds (37 not including downtime) that it takes for WAR to complete its 3*Fell Cleave opener, DRK can get in two Scourges and five DA+SEs of its own, in addition to C&S and its other oGCD skills. Now, you probably wouldn't want to use 5 DA+SEs in a row as DRK, but if you really want to go hard in the paint, that's totally possible with Blood Weapon.

If you really want to get into numbers, that's a combined potency of 4360 for the WAR's opener, unmodified for buffs. Including Maim and Berserk, that's a total of 8655 potency.

As for DRK, with Scourge, 5 DA+SE combos, and all its available oGCDs (except Reprisal and Dark Passenger, because lolReprisal and Dark Passenger is awful), you're looking at a combined potency of 6575. If you want to factor in Dark Arts, that's a total 7561 potency.

So 8655 to 7561 potency is about a 13% difference for each classes' respective maximum burst. That's not too bad a difference when you consider that, in the meantime, DRK is going to be slinging out combos worth 680/800 potency along with some potent oGCDs and DoTs, while WAR only has access to alternating 610/630 combos with no real oGCD offensive presence outside of Brutal Swing (50 potency...), and one of the worst DoTs in Fracture. In fact, if it weren't for DRKs egregious TP management (which does need to be fixed), DRK should be able to consistently out parse WAR over time, assuming both have access to Storm's Eye/Dancing Edge. In fights with lots of downtime and burst periods where WAR doesn't have the time to consistently land 3*FC burst openings, we know that DRK already goes head to head with WAR (once again, Lucrezia's Ravana Ex run, which, although a niche case, proves the point here decently).

Once again, you're looking for problems where there aren't any in a class with a tonne of legitimate ones that are actually worth addressing.

I really would like to see a parse log that shows a Warrior maintaining 900 dps while main tanking. If a warrior maintains good mitigation but lower damage, then he's using inner beast correctly and is a healer's delight. If he's really hitting 900 per sec, then my psychic powers are predicting a healer with a low mana bar nursing a huge grudge.

Warrior: "See you next week, guise!"

White Mage: "Hahaha, No."

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CKX2xeOUwAE2mhX.png:large

Here's an image on Lucrezia, the top JP fc dps in ravana extreme. your 900 dps shit is unofficially invalid

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Originally Posted by Blueskyy

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CKX2xeOUwAE2mhX.png:large

Here's an image on Lucrezia, the top JP fc dps in ravana extreme. your 900 dps shit is unofficially invalid

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Wooooo. OP, could we get a response?

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Originally Posted by Galgarion

Wooooo. OP, could we get a response?

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I don't know for OP but I really like these numbers. When we talk about tanks in my FC, the Warriors usually scream "We're so OP, we're better than real DPS, our numbers are crazy and you don't understand anything if you can't see how strong we are now! PLD and DRK are useless!".

So now, I want a WAR nerf, just to cool down some WAR players a bit (in my FC and with DF WAR too, of course)....

On the other hand, we did an Aery run with one DPS only (Ninja, we didn't have another DPS up), and 2 tanks (WAR MT and DRK OT), and the run went a lot faster and smoother than it usually goes with 2 DF DPS (with lvl55~ players, so not overgeared). So I can understand the feeling about tanks DPS.

It's hilarious that people think paladin and drk can't put up similar numbers and that warrior dps is too high. Just gonna say that I can maintain about 900 as a warrior in most normal mode alexander fights. While other dps in my static and dps I know are maintaining 1200dps the entire fights. I can't even come close to maintaining that to the end of a fight. If you are getting out dpsed by warrior or other off tank it's not because their dmg is too op it's because you need to get good.

Good luck trying to OT or MT in Alex Savage with Deliverance up.

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Originally Posted by Takamorisan

Good luck trying to OT or MT in Alex Savage with Deliverance up.

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A2S both tanks use their offensive stance.

I tank almost all of A1 Savage in Deliverence.

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Originally Posted by Takamorisan

Good luck trying to OT or MT in Alex Savage with Deliverance up.

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I tank the first mini boss and almost all of a1s in deliverance. Just have to know when to use cool downs and communicate with healers.

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Originally Posted by Takamorisan

Good luck trying to OT or MT in Alex Savage with Deliverance up.

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Start in defiance for enmity.

Switch to deliverance to do damage.

OGCD back to defiance if you take lots of damage to give healers the bonus healing, and to equilibrium yourself....

Then back to deliverance.


Remember than defiance does not reduce damage--while it gives you the same EHP as either other tank, it works differently.

A paladin must be IN stance at the time they take damage to reduce it.
A warrior that does not die to an attack does not need to be in defiance at the time they are hit--they need to be in it at the time they are healed. Binding your stances to buttons means if you droop low you just swap to defiance/get healed up===easy peasy.

It's also pretty fun. Lots of numbers moving back and forth and all.

I presume that you guys go full Vit or at least a mix in between vit/str.(Speaking Floor 1 wise)

How much HP you guys have in Deliverance ? I can see an opening during Photon spear and Resin Bombs, but still the 10 second CD would make those transitions very risky.

WAR is love, WAR is life

The game is pretty balanced..people play a class and then feel another class is "better" and call it unfair or unbalanced, warrior was given a damage stance. Deliverance and the skills that come with it are meant to do damage..if its too high for you, maybe you should up your game as a tank, learn to play or w.e u r and learn to dps a lil better. idk, maybe not complain about it and try to get it to go your way and ruin it for everyone else that's playing and enjoying their class? I'd hate to see warriors get messed around with cuz it is seen as a tank class doing "Toomuchdps".This is not even an issue of warriors dpsing too high, it is an issue of people not knowing how to play their classes and not taking the time to learn and play them to see how they are supposed to be played. Drk no tp?geta nin or brd. Maybe if people played/researched these classes they'd realize that classes have specific skills/actions that allow them to do more dmg hits than others and take more or less damage.

^ other part of my post=>If every class had the same type of playstyle, damage, defensive cooldowns or whatever then don't you think these classes we have in this game would have just been thrown into three different classes named "Tank", "Damage Dealer" and "Healer"? Warrior is a tank yes, and kind of not really I mean I guess..a higher damage dealer of the three tank classes?..but its like for example that you're comparing a dragoon or monk to a bard, analyzing their dps and whatnot then going off too say that a dragoon/monk does dps that is too high as a dps class, and then complaining to "balance the game" by lowering the dps of these classes because the dps of these melee classes are otherworldly that they're favored the most amongst the 12gods that there should be a new name for these melee classes like superdps or something.

Even if BRD, NIN, or MNK were to do far less damage than DRG, their raid utility is reason enough to bring them.

WAR IS the highest tank DPS (And, judging from the Dev answer, it's even designed to be this way) AND also brings Storm's Path and Storm's Eye, which is a massive raid utility.
While DRK brings...Blind, that doesn't affect anything but trash...Delirium, which is overwritten by MNK, on an ability that they WILL use to buff their DPS, DRK or not...Reprisal, which is unreliable, requires parrying and can't be up 100% of the time.

If DRK had a way of regaining TP it would be right up there with WAR. (assuming slashing debuff) WAR just gets such a massive advantage between TPless GCDs and equilibrium.

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Originally Posted by Takamorisan

I presume that you guys go full Vit or at least a mix in between vit/str.(Speaking Floor 1 wise)

How much HP you guys have in Deliverance ? I can see an opening during Photon spear and Resin Bombs, but still the 10 second CD would make those transitions very risky.

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I do STR spec and use 2 fending 3 slaying, but looking back I would probably have been safe dropping the fending entirely. I'll try that next week. What you can get away with will entirely depend on what your healers are comfortable with.

Really the only times in the fight that I have Defiance up are for about 20 seconds leading up to and including Hypercompressed Plasma, for which I also have Thrill + Convalescence. It felt necessary to ease the healing burden during that period, at least for progression.

I do Holmgang followed by Equilibrium + IB + Second Wind for the 1st and 3rd Plasmas, Vengeance + IB the 2nd and 4th.

Once I'm topped off after the tank buster, I swap back to Deliverence. I swap back to Defiance during the jump so that our Scholar can use me for a buffed Adlo+Deployment tactics, but swap back to Deliverence again as I pick up the Oppressor when it lands.

Specifically in reply to the topic of this thread, I don't feel that Warrior DPS is necessarily too high compared to the other two tanks (as OT). DRK is very, very close if they have access to the slashing vulnerability debuff. Paladin isn't too far behind, and provides other utility.

I do feel that PLD and DRK need a method for restoring TP.

Paladin DPS while tanking in Shield Oath is a bit hard to swallow when compared to DRK and WAR in their respective tank stances, but that's a whole other can of worms.

The misleading facts this OP gives. Talk about oxymorons...

I hope SE will keep adjusting jobs. With savage out, they can make proper adjustments. I just hope they don't go the nerfing route. We can provide them with great DPS data. Oh wait, we are not allowed to know numbers since we can't use prarsers....

The one thing I would like to say in reply to the OP: try and find some vids/stream of "gud" DRK's. Their damage is no joke. You would want a WAR or NIN in the group for the slashing debuff though.

Do also remember that the new PvP mode is already out and it "could" also be a factor in balancing jobs.

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Originally Posted by rawker

Do also remember that the new PvP mode is already out and it "could" also be a factor in balancing jobs.

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What about it? *genuine question

IMO drk is the weakest of the 3 tanks in pvp. but that might just be preference, tho I'm skeptical. Living Dead doesn't offer what HG and Holmgang do for PLD/WAR. *There's also a whole bit more i could go into but don't wanna go on that tangent unless others wanna discuss

AST tho different story, they can kite like a SCH and turtle like a WHM

Seeing that the game has two modes, namely PvE and PvP, what works on PvE might not be working in PVP. Let's say for instance, Ley Lines. Do you think a BLM can successfully cast their spells in it? Another would be the very famous 2x fell cleaves. With holmgang, it's very impossible to dodge it. Now this is an issue that a tank does way better than a DPS and would greatly skew the playerbase who just wants to experience the game to its fullest. If not addressed then the already dying PvP will be as good as dead. If worse comes to worst, an ability will have its own mechanic on both modes which to me is just a lazy solution to the problem.

Are you aware that in FFXI, WAR could tank AND dps? Same thing here; the job was hella strong.

if it's intended, then there's nothing the playerbase can do but to adapt to it... or as some people do, bitch til they get what they want. that's the reality. but as soon as we don't get any response from the developers, the topic is free for debate.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

Are you aware that in FFXI, WAR could tank AND dps? Same thing here; the job was hella strong.

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Due to Utsusemi Itchi and the blink tanking that came to be (but wasn't intended). This is not that - or at least I hope not. They waited WAY too long to adjust for WAR/NIN and dual axe OPness. In the Aht Urgan expansion they added zones full of Physical attack vulnerable mobs that allowed TP burn parties - just so DRK, DRG and others could level up to 75 without going weeks LFP (Not a solution for imbalance, just a work-around so folks could get 75). Monks at least had skill chains that matched with WAR iirc - so they were wanted alongside WARs in your ideal exp parties (although ideally a full WAR/NIN group didn't even bother using Skill Chains, just RAM spam spam iirc)...


This cutting corners approach to battle design really disappointed me. Apparently they added Grips to 2handed and other stuffs to make classes more comparable, but i don't know about any of that personally. I quit in 2006 or so, before all that was implemented - when WAR/NIN was still all it be or gtfo. If you wanted to level DRK or another melee, then had to go with Ninja subjob and play as a gimped WAR/NIN. Yea no thanks. IMO Game broke.

In todays MMO market, with games so quickly getting shuttered to F2P, I think SE has to run a tighter ship.

tl;dr: if FFXI pre Aht Urgan was on today's MMO market, WAR/NIN dual axe + blink tanking would have been nerfed in a week 1 hotfix.

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Originally Posted by rawker

Seeing that the game has two modes, namely PvE and PvP, what works on PvE might not be working in PVP.

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That's a bit of a stretch. I'd say PVP is about a big a part of this game as the Gold Saucer is.
It's more of a mini-game than a mode that could be compared to the PVE End-game content.

Alexander Savage DPS Check for 'faust' requires net dps of raid above 5700 damage per second. Using a Paladin and Warrior as tanks with a sch/ast, nin/bard/blm/drg we did this and fell short by 5%ish. Warrior DPS was vital to this net output if not it'd never come close.

Ya know, a lot of people say WAR has the highest burst damage of l the tanks, which is fine...but they also have the highest sustained damage too. I did a 9 minute test yesterday, and did 910 DPS over those nine minutes, and never fell below half TP. I'm okay with WAR having self sufficiency when it comes to damage, but I'm not sure it's okay to be the only job with like no TP problems over such a long period. Their strength isnt just burst damage anymore, it's sustained damage too. Dropping fracture from our rotation + GCD no TP abilities + a short cool down TP refresh seems a bit much, no? Even if PLD and DRK can do similar amounts with the slashing debuff, and possibly more (I haven't tested their DPS myself), they will run into TP problems eventually, but WAR will not.

They don't need to nerf warrior...leave Warriors alone...we like them.

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Originally Posted by Mikedizzy

They don't need to nerf warrior...leave Warriors alone...we like them.

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And we like you too. :)

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Originally Posted by AnimaS

Alexander Savage DPS Check for 'faust' requires net dps of raid above 5700 damage per second. Using a Paladin and Warrior as tanks with a sch/ast, nin/bard/blm/drg we did this and fell short by 5%ish. Warrior DPS was vital to this net output if not it'd never come close.

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Then it sounds as though Paladin dps needs a buff. If Warriors were neutered, wouldn't it be even harder to meet your goal?

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

What about it? *genuine question

IMO drk is the weakest of the 3 tanks in pvp. but that might just be preference, tho I'm skeptical. Living Dead doesn't offer what HG and Holmgang do for PLD/WAR. *There's also a whole bit more i could go into but don't wanna go on that tangent unless others wanna discuss

AST tho different story, they can kite like a SCH and turtle like a WHM

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I beg to differ PvP wise as far as Seize and Wolves den are concerned. DRK has much more burst damage through DA'd Carve and Spit and riding DA'd Soul Eater then a PLD does which, in my opinion, more than makes up for the lack of DEF cool downs when compared to PLD. Not to mention Living dead is much more useful than Holmgang in PvP, which is only really good for binding one target and drawing them in when its up. You can kite away entire groups of people from objectives who don't know any better with living dead-they'll also burn cool downs on you as well during the walking dead phase wasting them. Not to mention stuff like plunge is good for closing the distance on healers who need focusing down and are about to die. Carnal Chill is also good for ranged dps or groups of melee trying to focus people down. PLD doesn't have an Unleashed equivalent either for keeping people off the nodes and capping. I've never been stopped with Flash as far as I've seen.

In fact the only beef I have with DRK in PvP right now is with Tarpit not being a better break away/peel off move.