With all these astrologian complain threads

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Originally Posted by giantslayer

Trolling someone to the point where they lose their cool more than you do does not grant you some kind of moral high ground.

P.S. Fanservice was right in his analysis of the classes' healing abilities.

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Wasn't trolling and just because someone make you upset about something doesn't make it ok to attack them.

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Originally Posted by giantslayer

Time Dilation

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Time Dilation only increase the duration of AST buffs. Can't extend HG using that skill.

except scholar buffs the party dps by more on average than an AST while having healing similar to WHM.

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Originally Posted by Flinx

Time Dilation only increase the duration of AST buffs. Can't extend HG using that skill.

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I had a feeling the description of that skill sounded too good to be true. Oh well, so much for AST having some really neat skill people have just overlooked.

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Originally Posted by Nague

except scholar buffs the party dps by more on average than an AST while having healing similar to WHM.

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They did nerf Selene pretty hard, but 3% half the time is really better than what AST can do, come to think of it. Maybe AST needs stronger cards.

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Originally Posted by giantslayer

They did nerf Selene pretty hard, but 3% half the time is really better than what AST can do, come to think of it. Maybe AST needs stronger cards.

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The wording and calculation is different, but the end result is rather close tbh. The old 30% tooltip was horrifically misleading.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

The wording and calculation is different, but the end result is rather close tbh. The old 30% tooltip was horrifically misleading.

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Yeah, I'm not seeing this terrible nerf in practice, either. Selene's buffs provided a marginal increase for anyone but SPSD-stacked BLM, anyway.

Agree, Fey Wind alone is better than the whole AST cards by a wide margin. 3% straight attack speed to your entire raid without random bs going on vs...10% more damage/attack speed to one person + the chance to draw 4 other cards that are extremely situational and most of the times downright useless.

Don't forget Selene mass dispell :')

I think this e-peen thread needs to die. Astrologians are fine. Poor machinist needs help. And honestly we all know se starts new jobs off slightly weaker then tweak them as months go by.

lol this isnt epeen thread, we all want a decent 3rd healer and not some "challengemode" healer that is basically playing with 1 arm only *too soon?*

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Originally Posted by Vlady

I think this e-peen thread needs to die. Astrologians are fine. Poor machinist needs help. And honestly we all know se starts new jobs off slightly weaker then tweak them as months go by.

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Yeah, that's true. I remember when Ninja was underpowered and they buffed them.

Oh wait.

I wish they had just created a unique third healer that defined itself. Instead what we received was a support healer that steals from WHM/SCH in the form of stances, but in turns does less of a better job of both of them.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

I think this e-peen thread needs to die. Astrologians are fine. Poor machinist needs help. And honestly we all know se starts new jobs off slightly weaker then tweak them as months go by.

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Yes and no.

As SCH I can sustain 500-700DPS on a single 3 to 4 mob pack in the three level 60 dungeons with zero mp issues, on double pulls or larger fluff packs I'm pushing 1000+ (And have fallen just shy of 2000DPS on the double predator pack pull after the minotaur in Fractal if the mobs get stacked quickly enough). Bosses have me at ~300-400 depending on mechanics and healing. WHMs pull ahead on the big fluff packs (Seen 1500+ in certain places) but are mp constrained on 2/3 mob pulls. For reference; typical tanks tend to be 250-400ish, a comparable melee will be doing ~700-900 on trash, and SMNs seem to be the 4 man flavour of the month sustaining ~1000-1200 on a typical pull. I'm yet to see a 300+ sustained run from an AST and most fall to 200DPS across the instance.

TLDR: The DPS gap going from SCH, through WHM and down to AST is far far wider than the deficit MCHs are facing at the moment.

So yes, whilst I'll agree that ASTs are fine and perfectly viable, they are also rather underwhelming and they are most certainly not the powerhouse job that's going to topple the WHM/SCH meta that you predicted. I don't doubt that SE will sort it out within a patch or two though. Fingers crossed they focus on making the cards more consistent and rewarding rather than just giving them a HPS throughput bandaid.

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Originally Posted by Kaizersan

Wasn't trolling and just because someone make you upset about something doesn't make it ok to attack them.

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That was like a 3 of 10 on the "attack" scale.

Hell, no one even told you to kill yourself.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

SCH I can sustain 500-700DPS on a single 3 to 4 mob pack in the three level 60 dungeons with zero mp issues, on double pulls or larger fluff packs I'm pushing 1000+ (And have fallen just shy of 2000DPS on the double predator pack pull after the minotaur in Fractal if the mobs get stacked quickly enough). Bosses have me at ~300-400 depending on mechanics and healing. WHMs pull ahead on the big fluff packs (Seen 1500+ in certain places) but are mp constrained on 2/3 mob pulls. .

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I'm unable to parse because I'm on ps4 so I'm just curious because that sounds like really good dps - on sch you CS -> Shadowflare -> BioII/Miasma/Bio -> Bane? I usually open like this and then switch out of CS to top up/shield the tank and then go back into Broil. I throw energy drains if I have an Aetherflow refresh up and still have stacks. I like to make sure I have Shadowflare up because it helps mitigate too, but sometimes I feel like the dotaoe isn't worth it compared to amount of health/enemies left. Is this your general DPS plan?

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Yes and no.

As SCH I can sustain 500-700DPS on a single 3 to 4 mob pack in the three level 60 dungeons with zero mp issues, on double pulls or larger fluff packs I'm pushing 1000+ (And have fallen just shy of 2000DPS on the double predator pack pull after the minotaur in Fractal if the mobs get stacked quickly enough). Bosses have me at ~300-400 depending on mechanics and healing. WHMs pull ahead on the big fluff packs (Seen 1500+ in certain places) but are mp constrained on 2/3 mob pulls. For reference; typical tanks tend to be 250-400ish, a comparable melee will be doing ~700-900 on trash, and SMNs seem to be the 4 man flavour of the month sustaining ~1000-1200 on a typical pull. I'm yet to see a 300+ sustained run from an AST and most fall to 200DPS across the instance.

TLDR: The DPS gap going from SCH, through WHM and down to AST is far far wider than the deficit MCHs are facing at the moment.

So yes, whilst I'll agree that ASTs are fine and perfectly viable, they are also rather underwhelming and they are most certainly not the powerhouse job that's going to topple the WHM/SCH meta that you predicted. I don't doubt that SE will sort it out within a patch or two though. Fingers crossed they focus on making the cards more consistent and rewarding rather than just giving them a HPS throughput bandaid.

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I think you have brushed on another issue AST suffers compared to WHM and SCH, and that is their ability to be able to dish out dps whilst keeping people alive. WHM has divine seal regen and holy, then when things go bad they have benediction and tetragrammaton. SCH has fairy and lustrates to quick heal after dps as well as emergency tactics and a healing buff in fey illumination and a regen in whispering dawn. AST has Essential Dignity as the oh shit button, which really does not work well. As a heal you use in your normal healing "rotation" its fine, but it really does not fulfill the emergency heal function that benediction does and lustrate arguably does. Running AST in ex roulette at the moment is really sub optimal as contributing to dps really is not doable sometimes, and certainly not to the extent that WHM and SCH can, and the cards do not make this shortfall up in dps numbers at all.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

TLDR: The DPS gap going from SCH, through WHM and down to AST is far far wider than the deficit MCHs are facing at the moment.

So yes, whilst I'll agree that ASTs are fine and perfectly viable, they are also rather underwhelming and they are most certainly not the powerhouse job that's going to topple the WHM/SCH meta that you predicted. I don't doubt that SE will sort it out within a patch or two though. Fingers crossed they focus on making the cards more consistent and rewarding rather than just giving them a HPS throughput bandaid.

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That's likely because SE intended for AST to buff party damage through cards and not do dps themselves but increase the overall dps of the party.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

That was like a 3 of 10 on the "attack" scale.

Hell, no one even told you to kill yourself.

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Given that SE felt it was enough to warrant action says something.

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Originally Posted by ckc22

I'm unable to parse because I'm on ps4 so I'm just curious because that sounds like really good dps - on sch you CS -> Shadowflare -> BioII/Miasma/Bio -> Bane?

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I'll prebuff adlo/stoneskin as the previous pack dies then switch to CS early (To ensure I can drop out of it right on the pull if something goes wrong), from there it's Bio II > Miasma > Bio > Bane > Swiftcast Shadowflare followed usually by up to 3 aeros depending on how squishy the tank is. Drop CS > Lustrate > Phys > Adlo and repeat with a second trio of dots + bane. The goal is to get the second set of dots up before Miasma wears.

Videos!

http://www.hitbox.tv/video/569706 <-- Typical 2-3 mob pulls, 650-900dps
http://www.hitbox.tv/video/569709 <-- Bigger pull that I wasn't expecting and thus was rather messy with plenty more dps potential on the table. A 'measly' 900dps.
http://www.hitbox.tv/video/569699 <-- The big supersize reaper pull towards the end of fractal, 1400 np with the potential for more given that the tank was super good.
http://www.hitbox.tv/video/569671 <-- Phantom Ray aka a punchbag boss, a little sloppy on my part tbh, an extra mug of coffee would have seen me nudging on 500dps.
http://www.hitbox.tv/video/569707 <-- Waukkeon aka a hateful annoying boss with the full suite of twisters, invulnerable phases and movement, 350dps.

Please note that these runs were solo queue EX roulette, taking along stronger DPS would have dipped my numbers on certain pulls (most notably the big reaper double pack) whereas an FC tank would likely help me push that little bit more. Please also take these numbers with a delicate pinch of salt, I fully appreciate that there are far better DPS Scholars out there than me but hopefully these numbers will help clarify the shortfall that ASTs face right now.

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Originally Posted by Kaizersan

That's likely because SE intended for AST to buff party damage through cards and not do dps themselves but increase the overall dps of the party.

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Indeed they did, the problem is that the cards don't add even remotely enough to compare to what I can do on my SCH even in a best case bubble scenario. Pull a few arrows/spires back to back and the disparity is flat out shameful.

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Originally Posted by Kaizersan

That's likely because SE intended for AST to buff party damage through cards and not do dps themselves but increase the overall dps of the party.

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SE tried to do that... but in order to be succesful our cards should be a lot lot lot better :P

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

I'll prebuff adlo/stoneskin as the previous pack dies then switch to CS early (To ensure I can drop out of it right on the pull if something goes wrong), from there it's Bio II > Miasma > Bio > Bane > Swiftcast Shadowflare followed usually by up to 3 aeros depending on how squishy the tank is. Drop CS > Lustrate > Phys > Adlo and repeat with a second trio of dots + bane.

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Drop Aero, go Miasma II and spam Blizzard 2. :P

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

Drop Aero, go Miasma II and spam Blizzard 2. :P

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I'm wagering that's 2000dps on the reaper pull? Ty for the tip <3

*edit* is the trade off worth it for the 2/3 mob packs btw?

*edit2*

Lol

http://www.hitbox.tv/video/569779
http://www.hitbox.tv/video/569782

Approaching 1400dps on both despite competing with far stronger DPS members on that run although note that I was getting foes.

Seemed about 50 dps down on the bosses which is a pretty fair trade, I struggled with MP in places but I suspect that'll improve with practice, nice suggestion+++

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Originally Posted by Arcana

SE tried to do that... but in order to be succesful our cards should be a lot lot lot better :P

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More powerful/useful, or EXTREMELY less reliant on RNG. I'll take either buff, at this point.

I actually quite like the challenge of healing with relatively lower throughput, while still juggling card buffs and trying to do what little DPS I can. I don't want a "healing throughput bandaid", as Sebazy put it; I want a buffing mechanic that rewards me and my party for being able to play at that higher level of skill.

I am LOVING the challenge and the skill floor of the job, much like the dedicated MCHs; however, like them, I'm just a bit frustrated currently because the payoff right now just is NOT worth it. I myself am currently leveling my former main, SMN, and my MCH boyfriend is back to leveling his former main, SCH, until SE throws us some kind of bone.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

snip

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Yeah, not that important in raids tho, atm the windows to dps are relatively tight for healers, except in primals burn phases.

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Originally Posted by SakiKojiro

As I stated in this, The buffs and utility just aren't doing it. The base healing is fine. The AoE stun has to go. Utility needs to be added to the skill and the stun needs to be removed.

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In relation to this, something I noticed is that by level 60 both White Mage and Scholar gain access to an instant AoE heal (which are Assize and Indomitability). While giving every healer an instant AoE heal may not be necessary, Astrologian is still the odd one out. I think the stun effect on Celestial Opposition is fine. Could go with or without it, but I think the ability would be better if it had an AoE healing component along with a significantly shorter recast timer. Otherwise Astrologian really doesn't gain much to help their healing between level 50 and 60.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

I'll prebuff adlo/stoneskin as the previous pack dies then switch to CS early (To ensure I can drop out of it right on the pull if something goes wrong), from there it's Bio II > Miasma > Bio > Bane > Swiftcast Shadowflare followed usually by up to 3 aeros depending on how squishy the tank is. Drop CS > Lustrate > Phys > Adlo and repeat with a second trio of dots + bane. The goal is to get the second set of dots up before Miasma wears.

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Thanks that's my general plan too
Stick SS and Adlo up before pull -> into CS
I usually stick up SF first because I feel like the mitigation lets me stay in CS longer.

For something like Waukkeon in a pug though - my dps falls through the floor because people are getting smacked around too much haha.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

I'll prebuff adlo/stoneskin as the previous pack dies

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Rebuffing the group with Stoneskin in between pulls is a good habit to get into in general on any healer. I've always found it very useful and have continued to do it as I level AST as well.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

More powerful/useful, or EXTREMELY less reliant on RNG. I'll take either buff, at this point.

I actually quite like the challenge of healing with relatively lower throughput, while still juggling card buffs and trying to do what little DPS I can. I don't want a "healing throughput bandaid", as Sebazy put it; I want a buffing mechanic that rewards me and my party for being able to play at that higher level of skill.

I am LOVING the challenge and the skill floor of the job, much like the dedicated MCHs; however, like them, I'm just a bit frustrated currently because the payoff right now just is NOT worth it. I myself am currently leveling my former main, SMN, and my MCH boyfriend is back to leveling his former main, SCH, until SE throws us some kind of bone.

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Amen! I'm loving the challenge of the class, I'm just not yet feeling like an AST can ever do more than stay afloat.

I've noticed so far that AST seems to have a struggle with being solo healer. Maybe SE will buff the job at some point or it may fall to the wayside. I also find the cards confusing even though they have a small icon and color those some of them seem identical at first glance. I have yet to level it even though it was the one job I thought I might like.

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Originally Posted by Wobble

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Profanity: Evidence of an immature mind trying to express itself...
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Mark Twain: If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything. ~ Truth is the most valuable thing we have, Let us economize it.

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Completely off-topic, but I find it ironic that you decry profanity while simultaneously quoting Mark Twain; known for refusing to censor his books: "Censorship is like telling a man he can't have steak because a baby can't chew it."

I think many astrologian players are outright playing it incorrectly.

I had the PLEASURE of healing through our current EX primals with an astrologian and they surely kept up their end. I see AST as being a stupidly high skillcap (no doubt) but also fairly decently rewarding job.

It isn't as simple as WHM where you outright blast someone with heals, but it is more subtle. I had literally not a single hiccup through EX primals (aside from the damn DPS checks).

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Originally Posted by Sabeta

Completely off-topic, but I find it ironic that you decry profanity while simultaneously quoting Mark Twain; known for refusing to censor his books: "Censorship is like telling a man he can't have steak because a baby can't chew it."

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Not ironic at all, I wasn't quoting them for what they believe as people. I was using the quotes for what they actually mean.

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Originally Posted by SovereignAegis

I think many astrologian players are outright playing it incorrectly.

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This is such a cop out of an argument it burns.

I can tell you, as someone who has been toying around with the class extensively as of late, it needs a buff. Simply stating "people are playing it wrong!!!" is not conducive to solving the actual problems at hand. You seem to decry about Machinist left and right but Astrologian is fine all by itself? Please.

All three new classes need help. People have done the math; ASTs buffs are unreliable and weak, not buffing overall party DPS by a measly 2%. Scholar's FAIRY does more and it's out all the time.

Speaking to the thread itself, AST needs help. I'm fine with lower potencies on heals due to our low versatility but for the love of god buff the cards and buff some of our abilities.
Spear is painfully useless.
The rest of the cards are painfully weak.
"But royal road them! That increases their potency and effects!"
And for what? The off-chance I somehow manage to pull the right card and have the right buff at the right time due to RNGesus toying around with me? Besides, you have to GIVE UP a buff to get one. It's useless.

Celestial Opposition is PITIFUL for a level 60 ability. Whoopdee-friggin-doo, an AoE stun! Holy has this built in. You essentially tore this away from Gravity and made it into an ability. It's garbage, Square. Absolute garbage.

You know what else is bad? Light speed. Good god, why would you ever need to throw away 25% of your healing potency and burn through mana like a madman? So you cab hypothetically "save the day" in situations that barely ever arise and are prone to wiping anyway?

AST needs buffs. Maybe not a lot, but to argue it's "fine the way it is" is silly because a few people manage to squeak by on EASY CONTENT, ex primals.

I've always wanted a reversal of fortune type buff effect... Where instead of taking x damage (a cap to this), you would be healed, thus negating the damage. Or an defensive-offensive spell that prevented x damage but reflected a portion of it back to the enemy.

So for example... It would shield 100 points of damage. If a mob hits for 105, 5 damage goes through the shield, and 100 damage is reflected onto the mob.

A Stop ability would be fun too. Something that stops a skill mid-cast for a second or so... I'm just brainstorming here, so there's no logic whatsoever behind this. :P

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Originally Posted by Parawill

I've always wanted a reversal of fortune type buff effect... Where instead of taking x damage (a cap to this), you would be healed, thus negating the damage. Or an defensive-offensive spell that prevented x damage but reflected a portion of it back to the enemy.

So for example... It would shield 100 points of damage. If a mob hits for 105, 5 damage goes through the shield, and 100 damage is reflected onto the mob.

A Stop ability would be fun too. Something that stops a skill mid-cast for a second or so... I'm just brainstorming here, so there's no logic whatsoever behind this. :P

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I like your idea of absorbing damages, kinda like a certain mmorpg i have played before. However, it needs to be really delicately worked on, because it can easily make or break the balance.

With these many complaints, SE will probably buff the class sooner or later anyways. In before Ast becomes WTM with cards lol.

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Originally Posted by TheWaywardWind

You know what else is bad? Light speed. Good god, why would you ever need to throw away 25% of your healing potency and burn through mana like a madman? So you cab hypothetically "save the day" in situations that barely ever arise and are prone to wiping anyway?

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It's good for Stoneskin (because it's % based anyway) and Resurrections (because you resurrect 100% of the corpse anyway!).
I've cancelled it early every time I've used it though and that, if anything, is a sign that something is wrong with a cooldown.

It does not make resurrection instant cast. Just reduces 2.5 seconds reducing it to 7 ish seconds. It is good for stone skin spam though from what I have used it mostly for and requiring a lot of movement from dragon tail swipes in bismark extrme.

stoneskin still isn't instant with lightspeed, only whm get the 2.5 cast

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Originally Posted by jars

stoneskin still isn't instant with lightspeed, only whm get the 2.5 cast

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It makes the cast short enough to be used on the run though, at least for me. Don't even have to stop.

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Originally Posted by SovereignAegis

I think many astrologian players are outright playing it incorrectly.

I had the PLEASURE of healing through our current EX primals with an astrologian and they surely kept up their end. I see AST as being a stupidly high skillcap (no doubt) but also fairly decently rewarding job.

It isn't as simple as WHM where you outright blast someone with heals, but it is more subtle. I had literally not a single hiccup through EX primals (aside from the damn DPS checks).

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Oh, so you're the be-all, end-all of knowledge when it comes to playing AST? Please.

I don't believe for one second that you are some amazing astrologian and everyone else is just doing it wrong. The job needs quite a bit of work, and that opinion is coming from the vast majority of the people who have played the job, as well as even tanks and DPS who have been healed by AST.