Summoner gets no new pets in expansion

Bottom line: FFXIV's pet jobs won't be get any new pets in Heavensward. Everyone agrees the pets need work in one form or another and this is a missed opportunity to work on those issues. In fact they said the max they are doing is adding a glamour system but leaving pet abilities effects the same.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Bottom line: FFXIV's pet jobs won't be get any new pets in Heavensward. Everyone agrees the pets need work in one form or another and this is a missed opportunity to work on those issues. In fact they said the max they are doing is adding a glamour system but leaving pet abilities effects the same.

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I think you may have misunderstood. While it's not mentioned in the notes, in the spoken live letter they talked about buffing the current pets, altering their abilities and adding new ones. Specifically at around 2:13:00 the translator mentions "Rather than adding more pets where each of the entities won't have any change of effects, we decided that it's better to bolster the current existing pets and kind of add actions and expand on that." So I don't think we can say that it's a missed opportunity at this point. Everyone agreed that SMN as a whole needed work and SMN as a whole has been reworked. The rework just didn't involve putting in more redundant pets.

What you're talking about with the same effect is directly tied to the glamour system. For example you can Summon I a caster type pet which you've glamoured to look like Shiva, you use Wind Blade but since it's a Shiva pet, it'll probably be called something different to make sense for Shiva and will have the appearance of ice instead of wind. So leaving the effects the same applies only to the glamour system but that's not to say that the pet abilities are going to be the exact same as ARR.

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Originally Posted by Dement

I think you may have misunderstood. While it's not mentioned in the notes, in the spoken live letter they talked about buffing the current pets, altering their abilities and adding new ones. Specifically at around 2:13:00 the translator mentions "Rather than adding more pets where each of the entities won't have any change of effects, we decided that it's better to bolster the current existing pets and kind of add actions and expand on that." So I don't think we can say that it's a missed opportunity at this point. Everyone agreed that SMN as a whole needed work and SMN as a whole has been reworked. The rework just didn't involve putting in more redundant pets.

What you're talking about with the same effect is directly tied to the glamour system. For example you can Summon I a caster type pet which you've glamoured to look like Shiva, you use Wind Blade but since it's a Shiva pet, it'll probably be called something different to make sense for Shiva and will have the appearance of ice instead of wind. So leaving the effects the same applies only to the glamour system but that's not to say that the pet abilities are going to be the exact same as ARR.

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Well from what they have officially published and what players fluent in Japanese have said, the 2:13:00 marker was mistranslated. As it stands today, new no pets and just glamour changes for current pets. Below is the official transcript from SE.

Summoner

For summoner, we will be implementing an AoE attack that consumes Aetherflow, an action that simultaneously applies Bio, Bio II, and Miasma, a new magic attack that deals damage directly, and two new actions for level 60 that will change your rotation.

We've received feedback that Tri-disaster doesn't match the effect of the action, so we changed the name of it to Tri-bind, and made Tri-disaster into a new action that simultaneously applies three effects: Bio, Bio II, and Miasma.

One important point I would like to touch on is in regards to questions about whether we will be adding new egi. The development team thought long and hard about this, but looking at the long-term they felt that adding one new egi from the many primals that can be summoned would not change the situation very much. Instead of adding a pet whose abilities and effects are not different from others, they decided it would be better to increase the amount of actions for summoner to make it a more interesting job. However, considering that Carbuncle isn't being used right now, we’re looking into a system that will allow you to change the appearance and action animations of egi while their effects remain the same.

Considering that Aetherflow is on a 60 second cool down, the first 30 seconds will be spent applying DoTs and performing various other tasks, but there is room to work in some other aspects for the remaining 30 seconds, which is why we will be adding a new action known as Dreadwyrm Trance that allows you to summon the power of Bahamut. By performing your rotation you can gain stacks of Aethertrail Attunement, and once you have a certain amount you will be able to use Deathflare, which is a special attack that harnesses the power of Bahamut.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

However, considering that Carbuncle isn't being used right now, we’re looking into a system that will allow you to change the appearance and action animations of egi while their effects remain the same.

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This statement could mean one of two things. Either we will be getting new Egi models with unique animations/VFX that glamour over the top. Or just a new Egi model with new animations where the VFX goes unchanged. Though the latter option would render the glamour system kinda pointless/unpolished. So I think it's safe to say new VFX will also accompany the new models/animations. Perhaps by "effects" they just meant mechanically, but who knows.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

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You know, I don't think there was some glorious mis-translation taking place here.. The same thing was noted when both the translator and the forum mods both stated that Tri-Disaster would cost an AF but the actual translation says nothing of the sort.

Now call me crazy but I seriously doubt, SE will let Tri-Disaster be a skill that does not require an AF to be used as that could be quite OP for a buff to the class unless it had some stupid long CD which would essentially make it kinda useless.

Thus it's quite possible that the translator is saying pre-scripted lines for the English community, not following the exact words they are saying in Japanese.

As a speaker of the Japanese language, I can tell you with absolute certainty it was a mistranslation.

He more or less said rather than adding pets, it would be better in the long run to focus on the summoner him or herself, hence no new actions being added to the pets. However, they are planning a glamour system.

And no, he did not say that Tri-disaster requires a stack of aetherflow.

Will there be tiny quality-of-life issues with pets addressed? (i.e. pets not being affected by food, etc.) That remains to be seen.

What he said in the live letter:

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Originally Posted by Japanese

これは、長い目で見たときにペットを増やすより
本体のアクションを充実させたほうが活躍できると考えたためです。

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Originally Posted by English Translation

Thinking long-term, instead of adding more pets, we felt it better to give more use to the job by adding actions to summoner.

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Originally Posted by Spellbinder

As a speaker of the Japanese language, I can tell you with absolute certainty it was a mistranslation.

He more or less said rather than adding pets, it would be better in the long run to focus on the summoner him or herself, hence no new actions being added to the pets. However, they are planning a glamour system.

And no, he did not say that Tri-disaster requires a stack of aetherflow.

Will there be tiny quality-of-life issues with pets addressed? (i.e. pets not being affected by food, etc.) That remains to be seen.

What he said in the live letter:

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Read my last line. I am not denying a literal mis-translation. I am saying that it might be possible, that what was said was actually meant to be stated that way.

I am well aware how it literally translates as everyone including yourself have been fast to correct it. However, it's kinda hard to believe that both the translator and Bayohne are claiming similar things and both of these interpreters are wrong and have not corrected themselves. Most of the information released to the community is very likely scripted responses both on forums and in interviews. Granted if this is all one big error that they refuse to proof-read, then it just makes them look incompetent.

So we just stay with the same old-ugly pets forever and still call ourself SMN? .... sad

No even new actions for egis mentioned yet... and no fix for their look

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

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What are you confused about, pet get no new abilities or Tri-Disaster doesn't use AF? First I doubt the translation was pre-scripted because she is listen to Yoshi-P then translates it, just listen to her again. Second, I"m pretty sure these posted translation are proof read by the Devs before posting to make sure it's accurate. It says what it says and should be taking at face value.

-an AoE attack that consumes Aetherflow
-an action that simultaneously applies Bio, Bio II, and Miasma
-a new magic attack that deals damage directly
-two new actions for level 60 that will change your rotation

I would bet Tri-Disaster has a 1 to 3 minute cooldown and was ideally designed to apply DoTs quickly to non-trash adds in boss fights.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

What are you confused about, pet get no new abilities or Tri-Disaster doesn't use AF? First I doubt the translation was pre-scripted because she is listen to Yoshi-P then translates it, just listen to her again. Second, I"m pretty sure these posted translation are proof read by the Devs before posting to make sure it's accurate.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

*The stream shows off a video demonstration of summoner actions. Please note that all action names are tentative. We’ll be making various adjustments to summoner which includes an action that simultaneously applies Bio, Bio II, and Miasma effects in exchange for Aetherflow, an attack that deals magic-based damage, and two other new actions at level 60 that will largely change your current rotations.

The ability Tri-Disaster has had its name changed to Tri-Bind since the effect didn’t make sense with the original name. In exchange, the aforementioned ability action that applies all three DoTs will be known as Tri-Disaster.

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One minute you're saying it should be taken at face value while also saying it would be proof read by the Devs before posted. Like it was here^

Guess what? The translator said that first, yet everyone is saying it's mis-translation, in the literal sense, which it is, but that the statement should be ignored because of that. So if you were to consider that Bayohne and the translator are saying the truth, which would be proof read by the devs before stated, then it would stand to reason, that yes Tri Disaster is going to use AF, and it's possible though not mentioned by Bayohne, that we may get more pet skills.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

One minute you're saying it should be taken at face value while also saying it would be proof read by the Devs before posted. Like it was here^

Guess what? The translator said that first, yet everyone is saying it's mis-translation, in the literal sense, which it is, but that it should be ignored because of that. So if you were to consider that Bayohne and the translator are saying the truth, which would be proof read by the devs before stated, then it would stand to reason, that yes Tri Disaster is going to use AF, and it's possible though not mentioned by Bayohne, that we may get more pet skills.

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Doesn't say one way or the other if "action that ables B, B2, M" uses AF or not, just states that Tri-Disaster was reworked into this new action. Also the mis-translation everyone is talking about is pets getting new reworked abilities which is false.

Also I was replying to the topic of the thread which is summoners gets no new pets so not even sure why you are bringing up Tri-Disaster.

"Summoner

For summoner, we will be implementing an AoE attack that consumes Aetherflow, an action that simultaneously applies Bio, Bio II, and Miasma, a new magic attack that deals damage directly, and two new actions for level 60 that will change your rotation.

We've received feedback that Tri-disaster doesn't match the effect of the action, so we changed the name of it to Tri-bind, and made Tri-disaster into a new action that simultaneously applies three effects: Bio, Bio II, and Miasma.

One important point I would like to touch on is in regards to questions about whether we will be adding new egi. The development team thought long and hard about this, but looking at the long-term they felt that adding one new egi from the many primals that can be summoned would not change the situation very much. Instead of adding a pet whose abilities and effects are not different from others, they decided it would be better to increase the amount of actions for summoner to make it a more interesting job. However, considering that Carbuncle isn't being used right now, we’re looking into a system that will allow you to change the appearance and action animations of egi while their effects remain the same.

Considering that Aetherflow is on a 60 second cool down, the first 30 seconds will be spent applying DoTs and performing various other tasks, but there is room to work in some other aspects for the remaining 30 seconds, which is why we will be adding a new action known as Dreadwyrm Trance that allows you to summon the power of Bahamut. By performing your rotation you can gain stacks of Aethertrail Attunement, and once you have a certain amount you will be able to use Deathflare, which is a special attack that harnesses the power of Bahamut."

"We’ll be making various adjustments to summoner which includes an action that simultaneously applies Bio, Bio II, and Miasma effects in exchange for Aetherflow, an attack that deals magic-based damage, and two other new actions at level 60 that will largely change your current rotations.

The ability Tri-Disaster has had its name changed to Tri-Bind since the effect didn’t make sense with the original name. In exchange, the aforementioned ability action that applies all three DoTs will be known as Tri-Disaster.

During development, we thought long and hard about this, but we will not be adding new egi at this time. Looking at the long-term, instead of adding more pets, we felt it better to give more use to the job by adding actions to summoner. However, I’m sure many are wondering if they will have to continue looking at the same egi forever, but we are planning to add a system in the future that will allow you to change the appearance of your egis, including Carbuncle, but their stats will remain the same.

New action: Dreadwyrm Trance
Considering rotations with an Aetherflow recast of 60 seconds, the first 30 seconds are spent casting DoTs, and the remaining 30 seconds is where this action comes into play.

Dreadwyrm Trance is an ability that summons the power of Bahamut. While under the effect of this ability, you’ll be able to gain stacks of Bahamut Aether, which you can then spend with an action."

I would like to note that XXI digest translation is well writing and doesn't seem to be done on the fly like Bayohne's post on 5/21

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

I would like to note that XXI digest translation is well writing and doesn't seem to be done on the fly like Bayohne's post on 5/21

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Guess we'll find out this week what's what. Altogether, we're receiving information from different sources within SE and yet while they are saying different things, none are contradicting each other only inserting extra information.
Either they are all synonymous statements of each other, or SE's own departments need to cross-check their information better. Although, if we are going to hold the devs word for word as utmost certainty then, I'd like to remind you about housing that was stated by Yoshi-P, then didn't exactly unfold the same way it was exactly presented when it was implemented.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Doesn't say one way or the other if "action that ables B, B2, M" uses AF or not, just states that Tri-Disaster was reworked into this new action.

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The developers on Livestream have not stated anything about AF with Tri-Disaster, but yet we know that from the video, it is an instant skill. The only Instant skills with affects that SMN have are largely tied to AF outside of Bio I,Miasma II and Ruin II. If we solely are talking about the three main DoTs, then we've never had a skill that works in conjunction with our DoTs, and hasn't costed AF. Thus you can easily conclude that there is a very high chance, Tri-Disaster it will cost AF. Why does it matter? Because the literal translations are eluding this detail.

Thus it's possible that the devs during their livestreams have actually not gone into extensive depth of ALL the changes incoming with Heavensward regarding new skills and were actually giving a brief synopsis of what each class was getting, like the live-letter seemed to do. Coming full circle with this, I kinda doubt, they would leave pets as they currently are and not do a single thing to them especially when it contributes to SMNs source of damage. Patch notes are likely to showcase much more information about the new skills then what we currently know from watching these live-letters as history has shown, of that no one can deny.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

The developers on Livestream have not stated anything about AF with Tri-Disaster, but yet we know that from the video, it is an instant skill. The only Instant skills with affects that SMN have are largely tied to AF outside of Bio I,Miasma II and Ruin II. If we solely are talking about the three main DoTs, then we've never had a skill that works in conjunction with our DoTs, and hasn't costed AF. Thus you can easily conclude that there is a very high chance it will cost AF. Why does it matter? Because the literal translations are eluding this detail.

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You also have to consider this livestream wasn't the only place these new skills were discussed. There are quite a few Japanese articles floating around that give a synopsis of the new jobs and new actions being added, and they explicitly mention that the new area attack (Painflare) requires aetherflow, but they do not mention an aetherflow requirement when speaking of Tri-disaster. Why would multiple sources explicitly mention its requirement for one skill but not the other?

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Originally Posted by Spellbinder

You also have to consider this livestream wasn't the only place these new skills were discussed. There are quite a few Japanese articles floating around that give a synopsis of the new jobs and new actions being added, and they explicitly mention that the new area attack (Painflare) requires aetherflow, but they do not mention an aetherflow requirement when speaking of Tri-disaster. Why would multiple sources explicitly mention its requirement for one skill but not the other?

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You know I heard it required AF and immediately I thought that didn't seem right. We get stacks of Dreadwyrm from burning, AF stacks correct? which we can then spend on skills in Dreadwyrm Trance. Now if Deathflare is Ahk- Morn, we know it's going to use the Bahamut stacks, why wouldn't the other skill that is within line of the same name sake, not use Bahamut Stacks? We collect three stacks of Bahamut Trance only to use on one single skill? That didn't sound right to me.

What would be the purpose of having both AoE skills (Bane & Painflare) tied to Aetherflow? One would easily beat the other (very likely Bane). If you were to then say, well Painflare would be used on things that die faster then a Bane duration (let's say faster then 18 seconds), then why wouldn't we just use manual DotS + Fester thus making Painflare useless? Hence why I think, it doesn't make sense for it to cost AF stacks.

You could also argue, that it would be used in Conjunction with Bane both costing AF anyway which I guess could be possible but unlikely unless the potency was decently high for it.

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We collect three stacks of Bahamut Trance only to use on one single skill? That didn't sound right to me.

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It may not sound right, but based on all the Japanese articles I've read about new skills being added, that's what we're getting.　More specifically, this detailed article here. The writer's summary after a hands-on with the game.

http://game.watch.impress.co.jp/docs...27_703339.html

I'd be more than happy to translate the summoner section, although I believe someone from Blue Garter already has.

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Originally Posted by Spellbinder

It may not sound right, but based on all the Japanese articles I've read about new skills being added, that's what we're getting.　More specifically, this detailed article here. The writer's summary after a hands-on with the game.

http://game.watch.impress.co.jp/docs...27_703339.html

I'd be more than happy to translate the summoner section, although I believe someone from Blue Garter already has.

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I looked at the article but it didn't really mention anything about Painflare or Deathflare, only that you use Dreadwyrm Trance to perform new action(s) and they come closer to level cap.

Which I guess would make Painflare an AoE skill using Aetherflow, assuming we won't have Dreadwyrm till 58 and DeathFlare at cap and they won't give us two skills at once. But then, that would imply in that order Deadwyrm Trance does something else besides just letting us use these abilities, something that hasn't been confirmed by any devs. I can see what you meant about Tri-Disaster based off that one article of him/her not mentioning the cost.


Translation: http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/125...vent-5-18-5-20)

"After playing with each of the jobs, summoner felt to be the most challenging. Instead of receiving a new Egi, summoners are receiving a new element where they can harbor the power of Bahamut, called Bahamut Aether.

Within this, there is a procedure involved before you can release the power of Bahamut. First, when you utilize actions which consume a stack of Aetherflow from the pool, you'll receive the Bahamut Aether buff for 30 seconds. Upon earning Bahamut Aether, new abilities known as Dreadwyrm Trance become available. With this, you can use the power of Bahamut to increase your own attack power.

Of course, this is all intertwined with existing elements like the normal DoT management, but to ease this, Tri-disaster will be reborn as a spell worthy of its name learned at level 56 which applies Bio, Bio II, and Miasma at the same time. The original technique has been renamed as Tri-bind.

You won't learn Deathflare and Dreadwyrm Trance until you're close to the level cap. There have also been various adjustments to existing summoner actions, so it will feel quite different when it reaches level 60, similar to the change in the black mage rotation. We got the impression that summoner would be a powerful job, but complex to operate."

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

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Ah, yes. That article was referring specifically to Dreawyrm Trance and Deathflare, Deathflare being the singular skill we learn that makes use of the "Bahamut Aether." There was a Dengeki article, and I think a Famitsu article, that talk about Painflare and the other skills.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

I kinda doubt, they would leave pets as they currently are and not do a single thing to them especially when it contributes to SMNs source of damage. Patch notes are likely to showcase much more information about the new skills then what we currently know from watching these live-letters as history has shown, of that no one can deny.

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"One important point I would like to touch on is in regards to questions about whether we will be adding new egi. The development team thought long and hard about this, but looking at the long-term they felt that adding one new egi from the many primals that can be summoned would not change the situation very much. Instead of adding a pet whose abilities and effects are not different from others, they decided it would be better to increase the amount of actions for summoner to make it a more interesting job. However, considering that Carbuncle isn't being used right now, we’re looking into a system that will allow you to change the appearance and action animations of egi while their effects remain the same."

Based on this, they aren't going to rework Egi skills and just add a system to reskin them like emerald carby and topaz carby after you equip SMN soulstone.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Based on this, they aren't going to rework Egi skills and just add a system to reskin them like emerald carby and topaz carby after you equip SMN soulstone.

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This is all conjecture though of course in terms of the future. The digest is only for HW content, so we shouldn't take it as an overall statement for the entire future of SMN in FFXIV as a whole. It's very possible Egi will get more than a mere glamour system in a future expansion, but who knows on that front.

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Originally Posted by SoloWingMetatron

This is all conjecture though of course in terms of the future. The digest is only for HW content, so we shouldn't take it as an overall statement for the entire future of SMN in FFXIV as a whole. It's very possible Egi will get more than a mere glamour system in a future expansion, but who knows on that front.

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Just another hypothetical, but if this glamour system is all we have to look forward to in terms of changes to the Egi, and have to wait another year for another expansion to see changes, it would behoove us to discuss and give constructive feedback on practical changes that can be made in the future.

Wasn't there also something about Ruin III dealing increased damage during Dreadwyrm Trance? Or only being available during trance?

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Originally Posted by FreeLancer4

He certainly seems partial to arguing semantics and twisting words.

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Twisting words =/= Taking them for what they are. If you're trying to get a point across, get it across, especially when it comes to text based discussions on forums. Don't just dance around the issue with poor word choices and examples that have nothing to do with the problem at hand. The basis of his speech was how a SMN was not a SMN using some convoluted historical facts and aesthetics, not about game play tweaks and theories which is what should be discussed and is more important.

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Originally Posted by FreeLancer4

While the pet certainly increases dps, it hardly needs to be juggled,

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Juggling as in you need to manage it or it dies (Not helped by the fact pets are terrible at damage soaking). While I agree there could be more emphasis on interaction, it is clear thus far that they are not going that direction with the new skills being added in HW. Granted there were more pressing issues to be addressed with burst and dot/pet scaling, but seeing as it hasn't even been mentioned, I doubt we'll see anything to the effect of XI's pet management.

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Originally Posted by FreeLancer4

Other stuff

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SMN really has no more utility than other mages and will do more on anything not saturated with trash adds. While SCH does have the upgrades virus as well, there are times where healing is pressured to the point that you have to do it yourself. Just because another class has the ability doesn't make it any less useful, there IS a reason you have it after all. There really isn't more interaction you could add to the pets currently (Without more skills obviously) outside of making Titan useful as Garuda and Ifrit already have their uses (Make him cover someone, least someone will actually use him then).

And the buff to SpS does give "oomph" since dots scale poorly, they always have.

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Originally Posted by Spellbinder

Just another hypothetical, but if this glamour system is all we have to look forward to in terms of changes to the Egi, and have to wait another year for another expansion to see changes, it would behoove us to discuss and give constructive feedback on practical changes that can be made in the future.

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Yeah that's what I mean. But it seems a lot of people (not all) are more focused on being cynical and pessimistic, acting as if the HW digest and new SMN abilities means the Egi are just going to stay as they are forever more. Which they may do, but they also might not so why can't people have more optimism.

I am all for hearing all peoples suggestions for SMN. But it is not enough to just say this random idea. It needs to be more comprehensive than that, by explaining how said idea would work from a game play/mechanical/balancing point of view. Only then can a truly fun and constructive discussion begin. Also if an idea just doesn't work, then it doesn't work. Nothing wrong with pointing that out.

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However I can tell you guys for a fact, SLIGHTLY larger Egi would not break the game in any way. Concerns of views being potentially obstructed are valid, but not enough to dismiss a potential Egi size increase.

The glamour system however makes a lot of sense. Yes it would have been nice to have all Egi function in unique ways. But it is what it is, and the reasons for it are justified.

Furthermore, could SMN's new abilities have been implemented via interaction with the Egi? The answer is YES they could have, quite easily in fact. However SE instead chose to try and bring a new form of summoning to SMN via Dreadwyrm Trance. Were SE wrong on that front? are the abilities broken? The answers to both are NO. The abilities work, they are fun, they are visually pleasing, they could only exist for SMN. Are they a unique take on summoning? Kinda. Is that a bad/wrong thing? NO.

Anything else is personal taste, but whether you like something or hate something, doesn't make it wrong or broken.

Bottom line is it doesn't make sense to give say, 8 summons, when only 1 can be used at a time, and possibly only 2-3 of them are used regularly.

That is 32 skills that have to be balanced, while only 4 is ever used at a time, basically an entire class's worth of skills being completely unused.

Glamours make a whole lot of sense - there simply isn't enough reason to have 8 different niches or whatever.

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Originally Posted by SoloWingMetatron

I am all for hearing all peoples suggestions for SMN. But it is not enough to just say this random idea. It needs to be more comprehensive than that, by explaining how said idea would work from a game play/mechanical/balancing point of view. Only then can a truly fun and constructive discussion begin. Also if an idea just doesn't work, then it doesn't work. Nothing wrong with pointing that out.

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I'd like to think there are players hanging around these forums willing to have such a discussion, and I still intend on starting a new feedback/discussion thread maybe two weeks after release. Hopefully the forum hasn't self-destructed by that time. With any luck, it will gain some traction, some good ideas can get tossed around, and I can translate it into Japanese and see what our counterparts overseas think of things.

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Originally Posted by Spellbinder

I'd like to think there are players hanging around these forums willing to have such a discussion, and I still intend on starting a new feedback/discussion thread maybe two weeks after release. Hopefully the forum hasn't self-destructed by that time. Hopefully it can gain some traction, some good ideas can get tossed around, and I can translate it into Japanese and see what our counterparts overseas think of things.

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I would very much like for a thread like that to exist! However I fear like all previous SMN threads it will turn into "who has the best knowledge of FF history trivia" all over again.

I want to see a thread that is more in depth than that, that focuses on the actual game and it's development (models, animations, abilities, mechanics) Not a history lesson on past FF trivia and then trying to prove each other wrong on said trivia....it's just pathetic at this point. Need to move past it people.

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Originally Posted by SoloWingMetatron

I would very much like for a thread like that to exist! However I fear like all previous SMN threads it will turn into "who has the best knowledge of FF history trivia" all over again.

I want to see a thread that is more in depth than that, that focuses on the actual game and it's development (models, animations, abilities, mechanics) Not a history lesson on past FF trivia and then trying to prove each other wrong on said trivia....it's just pathetic at this point. Need to move past it people.

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Well, the original thread was relatively successful, although it fell into disuse after about 58 pages. The Japanese thread was only 31 pages, but it was used for a good two years until a newer suggestion thread came up, which now sits at around 104 pages. We just have to wait until release and play it by ear until a good time presents itself.

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Originally Posted by Spellbinder

Well, the original thread was relatively successful, although it fell into disuse after about 58 pages. The Japanese thread was only 31 pages, but it was used for a good two years until a newer suggestion thread came up, which now sits at around 104 pages. We just have to wait until release and play it by ear until a good time presents itself.

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Indeed, though I wonder do the Japanese threads have the same pointless vitriol from it's members? Like this threads OP.

From what I've seen of the thread I made and the newer one, there are obviously times when people don't see eye to eye, but no real "vitriol" that I can discern from their conversations. Maybe on 2chan (or 4chan?) perhaps, but I don't frequent those parts of the interwebs.

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Originally Posted by Spellbinder

From what I've seen of the thread I made and the newer one, there are obviously times when people don't see eye to eye, but no real "vitriol" that I can discern from their conversations. Maybe on 2chan (or 4chan?) perhaps, but I don't frequent those parts of the interwebs.

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Yeah it's fine if people disagree on point's of view, but its when they start getting petty with each other that it becomes irksome. Like when the OP started blaming those who like SMN's new abilities, for the reason they did not get what they wanted. Or when people have to start quoting the definition of the word "exact".....it's like seriously, we're playing that game now are we?....oh ok, well done.

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Originally Posted by Asierid

SMN really has no more utility than other mages and will do more on anything not saturated with trash adds. While SCH does have the upgrades virus as well, there are times where healing is pressured to the point that you have to do it yourself. Just because another class has the ability doesn't make it any less useful, there IS a reason you have it after all. There really isn't more interaction you could add to the pets currently (Without more skills obviously) outside of making Titan useful as Garuda and Ifrit already have their uses (Make him cover someone, least someone will actually use him then).

And the buff to SpS does give "oomph" since dots scale poorly, they always have.

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To add to this, we are getting a new Healer AST, which will not have access to Supervirus and Enhanced EFE. The chance of not having a SCH in the party is greater, which means these SMN tools get stronger by default.

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Originally Posted by SoloWingMetatron

I want to see a thread that is more in depth than that, that focuses on the actual game and it's development (models, animations, abilities, mechanics) Not a history lesson on past FF trivia and then trying to prove each other wrong on said trivia....it's just pathetic at this point. Need to move past it people.

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History informs this game, so it's never going to go away and it can be quite useful for mechanics in the right context.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Bottom line is it doesn't make sense to give say, 8 summons, when only 1 can be used at a time, and possibly only 2-3 of them are used regularly.

That is 32 skills that have to be balanced, while only 4 is ever used at a time, basically an entire class's worth of skills being completely unused.

Glamours make a whole lot of sense - there simply isn't enough reason to have 8 different niches or whatever.

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Maybe not 8. Maybe just 5 or 6. Maybe 10! You're always going to have that go-to pet you default to, that's a niche to fill. The summons just need better niches to fill. The fact that our choice can be distilled to "Do I want Contagion. Yes/No" is quite frankly a boring design. Hell, even another healing pet with a basic auto-attack would be fine without stepping on healer toes.

The biggest issue with this game is that they streamlined so much they reduced the usefulness of crowd-control, debuffing, buffing, off-healing, anything that isn't strictly DPS. Even so, there are enough shades of DPS that we can fill out a pet roster more.

It really bothers me that their current response is "It's too hard."

Because it is too hard to make pets appealing.

Noone cares about your debuffing/buffing pet, or your healing pet, because it isn't needed.

WHY isn't it needed? Because any situation that doesn't require a summoner will never require it, thus having a summoner can't possibly make it enough of a difference to take one.

Your job is dps mate, you pick the one with the most dps.

Perhaps each summon provides a different passive bonus (like WoW's hunter pets do), but their functionality is more damage and that is the only niche they can possibly fill (along with a cc/utility pet for pvp and a tank pet for soloing). This is the "utility" that hunters bring, and it is a good utility. Your raid lacking a DRG? Okay your pet glamour provides the piercing debuff for your MST/BRD. Missing a MNK? Bring the blunt debuff. Etc. But the primary role and attack abilities of your pet will not change. It will be your "damage" pet and you will use it.

There are not "enough shades of dps" it is just "for this fight, X pet is best".

So you can either make 8 pets which are each best in one fight, because of some bogus mechanic, or you can make one pet that is the best for 8 fights.

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Originally Posted by Saggo

History informs this game, so it's never going to go away and it can be quite useful for mechanics in the right context.

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Very true. When used in the correct context, history of a job can help inform a concept. However in most cases in this thread and many other SMN threads, it loses it's context, going off on a tangent and just merely becomes a way for one poster to "one up" another, over something totally trivial and irrelevant to the initial point.

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Originally Posted by Darkstride

Wasn't there also something about Ruin III dealing increased damage during Dreadwyrm Trance? Or only being available during trance?

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Yes. I've heard both and got no idea myself which is the right one. Usable during trance sounds more logical to me, though.

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Originally Posted by SoloWingMetatron

Very true. When used in the correct context, history of a job can help inform a concept. However in most cases in this thread and many other SMN threads, it loses it's context, going off on a tangent and just merely becomes a way for one poster to "one up" another, over something totally trivial and irrelevant to the initial point.

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All I can think of is "Welcome to the internet, it likes tangents."

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

WHY isn't it needed? Because any situation that doesn't require a summoner will never require it, thus having a summoner can't possibly make it enough of a difference to take one.

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Let's just take this argument to the logical extreme and say there should only be 3 jobs, period.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

So you can either make 8 pets which are each best in one fight, because of some bogus mechanic, or you can make one pet that is the best for 8 fights.

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If you want to exaggerate, sure. You don't need 8 DPS pets. You make 3-4 DPS pets and 2-3 utility pets and now you have 6ish pets to choose from. 6ish pets is not hard, especially since one skill is always their auto-attack of some degree of potency.

Maybe a player only picks one summon. Maybe they're not interested in the game that much. Maybe that's no different than a player that sticks Ifrit on Sic and calls it a day.

We have 3 pets right now, and we use 1 of them.

We can have 6 pets, we will still only use one of them.

It is fallacious to really expect increased pets with having other classes...

But if you really want to make that argument, lets break it down

Why other classes/pets?

1. Different rotations. Classes have different rotations. Pets CAN'T have different rotations because the vast majority of your skills don't change. At best they add one tiny thing on a cooldown. Whoopee.

2. Thematically different. Obviously people will want to play melee, ranged, caster, etc. This is why diff classes exist. Obivously people like different egis. This is why glamour will exist

So...yea.

You also seem to have misunderstood my "ubiquity" argument.

It is not so much that classes are homogenous. It is that no class can provide such extreme utility that you cannot down things without it.

Okay? We're agreed there?

Alright. So, then comes the real gist of it. Why then, if you can sub your SMN for any other job, would you bring an SMN? Because of dps. Because it is a dps class. So you will pick the pet with the most dps. Your pet's utility won't be enough to save the raid. Your offtanking will be useful in 1 out of 1 million encounters. Noone needs your healing if the healers don't suck, etc.

*Cue the anecdote where titan egi saved the day*

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

We have 3 pets right now, and we use 1 of them.

We can have 6 pets, we will still only use one of them.

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You may use one. Other people don't.

I didn't think I would really have to explain why I sometimes choose Garuda over Ifrit and vice versa, and that little choice has more potential than SE is willing to give or people here are willing to admit.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

You also seem to have misunderstood my "ubiquity" argument.

It is not so much that classes are homogenous. It is that no class can provide such extreme utility that you cannot down things without it.

Okay? We're agreed there?

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Hardly. It's called argumentum ad absurdum. If all jobs are interchangable then logically there is no need to devote resources to more then the 3 jobs. It's, like the name suggests, an absurd argument, just twisted for SMNs only.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

*Cue the anecdote where titan egi saved the day*

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Oh, but he did.

Don't act like fights never go south, or PUGs don't exist, or that dungeons are just a boss fights.

The only way I see Summoner going with the addition of Dreadwrym Trance is Incarnate Summoning. At level 70 Summoners should get the ability to summon Primals by having a massive amount of Aether form around their body taking on the appearance and abilities of the Primal they want to summon as well as the Summoner acting as the soul of the Primal. The Primals Ifrit, Titan, Garuda, Leviathan and Ramuh are op elementals since they are a mass of Aether with the collective will of the beast tribe that summoned them and Shiva is the essence of the land fused with Yasyle soul. So either way no one is really Summoning the Real Primals at best they are summoning something that looks and acts like a Primal.

LB3 confirmed to be Megaflare. You even grow Bahamut wings
http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...aunch_trailer/