Poll: Gear progression, horizontal or vertical?

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Originally Posted by Whocareswhatmynameis

From this post, almost everyone that is voting horizontal is doing so because they don't like having to grind a new set of tomestone gear. So, don't make a new set of tomestone gear and they won't have to grind it. I'm genius!

Then they will have more time to do other things, like raid, or craft, or chocobo race, or triple triad tourneys, or iono ERP or something.

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I'd argue those people aren't casual. Just. . . uh, I can't think of a nice way to say it, so I won't.

But complaining about farming tomestones for new gear every few months as a direct upgrade per class is too much but farming multiple gear sets for every class that you need to have and keep on you because fights are balanced around having different set ups along the horizontal progression OR it just being the same thing but with more math if fights aren't set up that way. . . well it's something.

I mean it's basically "I hate grinding gear! Make me grind more gear!"

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

How would they make new and interesting gear with vertical progression? Its the same item with the same stats, but just bigger numbers.

^Its not a problem of the gear system, but gearing itself. Altho horizontal would actually make it easier; since you can provide more options at the same ''ilvl''.

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Vertical progression makes new gear desirable* by having it be better in most cases that previous gear and also having different models. Horizontal progression has a tendency of making only a few pieces desirable until better pieces appear.

*Not interesting. Interesting is a bad term. Anything can be interesting if it is different than normal. A left side tank piece with +Mind +Spellspeed would be interesting, but not desirable.

Funny how most of the people choosing vertical say "oh it's because with horizontal I might get excluded from content"; when the only content you might get excluded from, you probably don't even do to begin with. The main reason they want vertical is because they want to feel strong with their big numbers.

Btw, Horizontal

https://38.media.tumblr.com/6e03f673...9V11rjf3sr.jpg

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

But remember that having fun and playing well are 2 entirely different things.
Altho having fun does actually increase your performance by a lot.

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Maybe for you they are, many find fun in pushing their ability as much as they can, or optimising their build/rotations. I find challenging content where I have to fully push my playing ability to meet the requirements to progress and pass said content. Just because you don't doesn't mean everyone else doesn't, thinking that is just being egotitstical as if your opinion is universal.

Easy content I find dull.

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Originally Posted by Otoha

Funny how most of the people choosing vertical say "oh it's because with horizontal I might get excluded from content"; when the only content you might get excluded from, you probably don't even do to begin with. The main reason they want vertical is because they want to feel strong with their big numbers.

Btw, Horizontal

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I want it to stay with vertical gear progression and in a static that cleared all (except savage) pre nerf. Plus I've experienced first hand with XI how the so called "Horizontel" progression was pretty much an illusion because of the preferred build for each gear swap and base sets.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Vertical progression makes new gear desirable* by having it be better in most cases that previous gear and also having different models. Horizontal progression has a tendency of making only a few pieces desirable until better pieces appear.

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Which is vertical progression as you are replacing gear with higher level gear. Albeit not every piece initially.

Ok question for Nektulos-Tuor: Why you don't want FFXIV to be FFXIV ?

Hybrid would be good. I'd like to see less of a gear treadmill and more of content to use the gear on as well - having special distinct stuff in gear sets... couldn't care less. Think it would just limit the playerbase to much unless there's a more reliable way to get it instead of RNG madness.

i will vote Hybrid, too much of either vertical or horizontal is bad for the game.

Hybrid over all...gives something for everyone.

Horizontal gear was done horribly in FFXI which had things like BiS pieces that were level 7 and weren't fazed out/made obsolete for YEARS.


Although at least we don't need a hundred gear swap macros in XIV. That was a boring nightmare.

Vertical unless they overhaul the entire game.

Horizontal only worked in XI because of the ability to gear swap via macros in combat combined with a more complex damage system that was heavily effected by the monsters stats and you buffs at any given moment. It allowed otherwise useless pieces of gear to have a BiS function in specific situations. You could Wal around with 70 pieces of equipment for 1 job and use all that gear over a few hours of play.

Horizontal Progression gear doesn't work when you can't swap gear. The math heads will calculate the best set and that will be it. Maybe 1 or 2 minor deviations, but that is no different than what we have now. Every system gets boiled down to a simple BiS. Horizontal vs vertical is the illusion of choice. It only worked in XI because there was literally a BiS for every individual action, job ability, wweaponskill, spell, and even sub stage stuff. Example:
Black mage casting flare:
Before cast: equip full set of fast cast gear (makes spell cast faster).
During cast: equip full spell interrupt down gear (reduces chance of spell being interrupted by being hit)
Right before cast finish 1: pile on potency gear (gear to make flare hit harder
Right before finish cast 2: many variations of potency gear that includes more magic accuracy for differing targets.

Each of those sets could swap all 16 pieces of gear to optimize each part of the process. So you could travel the world collecting gear from everywhere because everything had SOME situational use. There was a BiS for everything, but there were hundreds 9f actions with different BiS sets so it felt like there was more freedom.

There is no way to make horizontal 'progression' if you can't change gear. It's still just boiled down to a BiS that you aim for. The systems are the same. Add new gear in patch. Calculate new BiS set. Go obtain said gear. It doesn't matter what ilvl it is. The process is the same. Horizontal is just the illusion of choice and plays out the same way as vertical. If there are no situations that demand different gear, then there is no situational gear and only the mighty BiS. XI is the only game that had that, and it was only stumbled into by pure dumb luck.

Horizontal.

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Boring gear is boring. Give me Horizontal progression. I don't care if one piece lasts for ages, as long as gear has at least a LITTLE personality to it.

In an ideal world, HORIZONTAL.

But given the WoW influence and compromises, I think HYBRID (some Horizontal Gear Sets (same iLevel) w/ Unique Stats spread across 2 patches), and then item Level Increase) is fine. Example of Hybrid:

Instead of the current:

* Patch 1: i90
* Patch 3: i110
* Patch 5: i130

Hybrid would be:

* Patch 1: i90 (2 Sets of Gear)
* Patch 3: i90 (Alternate Set of Gear w/ Unique Stats)
* Patch 5: i110 (2 Sets of Gear)
* Patch 7: i110 (Alternate Set of Gear w/ Unique Stats)


It at least slows down the Gear / Stat Inflation in this game, and gives SOME feeling of your gear meaning something for a period of time.

Would say Horizontal, but Im not sure how that would work for a game such as this were every class have a specific gear and one character can use all classes. :/
I mean, inventory is pretty cramped as it is...

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Originally Posted by Kiara

In an ideal world, HORIZONTAL.

But given the WoW influence and compromises, I think HYBRID (some Horizontal Gear Sets (same iLevel) w/ Unique Stats spread across 2 patches), and then item Level Increase) is fine. Example of Hybrid:

Instead of the current:

* Patch 1: i90
* Patch 3: i110
* Patch 5: i130

Hybrid would be:

* Patch 1: i90 (2 Sets of Gear)
* Patch 3: i90 (Alternate Set of Gear w/ Unique Stats)
* Patch 5: i110 (2 Sets of Gear)
* Patch 7: i110 (Alternate Set of Gear w/ Unique Stats)


It at least slows down the Gear / Stat Inflation in this game, and gives SOME feeling of your gear meaning something for a period of time.

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Why do you wanna slow down stat inflation?

Hybrid ideally. I honestly lean more towards horizontal; most games I enjoyed playing were that. Even if it boils down to an "illusion of choice," it still adds variety and things fun to play around with. Not *everyone* and every group has to have the flat out best min-maxed stats, some just like having fun with what they have. Whether it be challenge, RPing, or whatever.

A hybrid between the two at least allows people who want flat out stat increases to get them while not being stagnated for a very long time.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizy

Why do you wanna slow down stat inflation?

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Because the exact same stats +5 is... Kind of boring.

I've already voted (Horizontal is something I prefer in general) but I should point out that horizontal wouldn't really work with this game as it's designed. As someone else pointed out, we don't have the stats to be able to handle horizontal without it being pointless. You need different kinds of stats with different affects to combat to really get horizontal progression. Or have equipted/activated effects.

To those people pointing to FFXI as an example of bad horizontal progression, I suspect a lot of that is because of the whole in-combat gear switching thing. If you couldn't swap your gear in-combat than the whole 'hoarder' thing would be less of a point. And let's get real here; who's going to change their pants in battle? That system never made sense to me... Swapping weapons I can understand, but changing out of your actually clothes while fighting an enemy just doesn't compute in my head.

If your needing to constantly switch out gear. Then that isn't horizontal. That ... is pretty much just vertical with needing different sets of gear.

Horizontal Progression means you can do content with any of the gear available, you just pick which one suits your play-style, trade-offs.

If you have to carry a set of gear for each content you do then its already just vertical progression with more sets of gear needed to do the job, for example gear that is better against skeletons. Now to take on the skeleton raid you need skeleton armor. That isn't horizontal. That is still vertical.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Which is vertical progression as you are replacing gear with higher level gear. Albeit not every piece initially.

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True, FFXI style "Horizontal" Progression isn't true Horizontal Progression.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

If your needing to constantly switch out gear. Then that isn't horizontal. That ... is pretty much just vertical with needing different sets of gear.

Horizontal Progression means you can do content with any of the gear available, you just pick which one suits your play-style, trade-offs.

If you have to carry a set of gear for each content you do then its already just vertical progression with more sets of gear needed to do the job, for example gear that is better against skeletons. Now to take on the skeleton raid you need skeleton armor. That isn't horizontal. That is still vertical.

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No, the swapping for the situation is true Horizontal Progression. Horizontal Progression is the term for increased situational capabilities from expanded equipment access without increasing the overall maximum capabilities in all situations.

The best example of a True Horizontal Progression occurs near the end of the World of Balance in FF6.
In the Magitek Research Facility you can find a total of 4 swords: Blizzard Blade (108 Atk, Ice element, 25% chance of casting Blizzard), Flametongue (108 Atk, Fire element, 25% chance of casting ), Thunder Blade (108 Atk, Lightning element, 25% chance of casting Thunder) and Stoneblade (117, Neutral, 25% chance of casting Break). All 4 weapons are roughly equal, but, depending on the fight, each can be better than the others.

Both, Honestly I thought materia system would have been an excellent option were crafters attach and detach materia and have some kind of progression and not just what we currently have stuff like ability modifiers, trait enhancement ect. They should have two materia systems the original for status like str, int, ect, but for future content after expansion they should introduce materia 3.0 adding traits,ability enhancement were it 2 slot for status effect and one or two depending on gear for traits/ability boost.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

No, the swapping for the situation is true Horizontal Progression. Horizontal Progression is the term for increased situational capabilities from expanded equipment access without increasing the overall maximum capabilities in all situations.

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No, he's correct. If you ''need'' to swap equipment to fit the situation then its not longer horizontal since you dont actually have a choice in what to equip. Your example of elemental weapons is a good example of that.

Horizontal or Hybrid. Vertical is boring.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

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Saying Horizontal is when you can equip any gear-set and face-roll on skill alone is a ridiculous method of progression because in that situation every piece of gear will have the exact same stats and nothing else; no bonuses, no variation, no anything, just flat basic stats. You would never upgrade that gear or change your gear or progress your character beyond max level.

At least with the system we have now we have what is called "character growth". You can noticeably see your charterer become stronger as you get progressively better gear. Is it ideal? Nah, but it is far better than that idea of "horizontal".

If you added any variation to the gear, any unique bonuses or procs or resistances, anything that makes one piece of gear different than another piece than you end up with the situation I have described in previous pages.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Stuff.

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Not really. You can have horizontal vertical progression where gets gets better. However there are different pieces and skillsets on said gear that is better. You can have ilevels of gear, but with just different stats/effects. ilevel only determining how many stats can be on said item.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

You can have horizontal vertical progression

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So now you're wanting to talk about a hybrid of horizontal and vertical. Switching things but ok.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

However there are different pieces and skillsets on said gear that is better. You can have ilevels of gear, but with just different stats/effects. ilevel only determining how many stats can be on said item.

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This still leads to one gear piece being more ideal for one situation over another, hence swapping horizontally across the spectrum. All you are adding to the equation is when another tier of gear comes out you are upgrading to the next version up.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

So now you're wanting to talk about a hybrid of horizontal and vertical. Switching things but ok.



This still leads to one gear piece being more ideal for one situation over another, hence swapping horizontally across the spectrum. All you are adding to the equation is when another tier of gear comes out you are upgrading to the next version up.

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No, here is a good example of how it works.

http://i.imgur.com/QWvGqRX.png

Some gear is better in certain situations but it depends on what your doing. However gear always has a % chance. Its more based on your play-style then anything else. The effects are just bonuses to the stats. Sure you can make your character specialized, however what if you need a faster burn? You have to adjust your raid to the playstyles of the players.

That doesn't mean you will need to carry 5 bags of gear. You will do fine using sets you like and you enjoy. Even maybe mixing it up.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

No, here is a good example of how it works.

http://i.imgur.com/KJzIGGM.png

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^ Which will lead to swapping out in different situations.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

That doesn't mean you will need to carry 5 bags of gear. You will do fine using sets you like and you enjoy. Even maybe mixing it up.

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For players doing only story dungeons and quests perhaps. But even a hybrid will bloat our inventory up and anyone wanting to do any difficult content will need to swap and adjust their gear pieces accordingly. Is that fine? Sure, not everyone plays difficult content. But saying it won't bloat inventories because people won't be carrying all the different pieces needs to counter an encounter is pretty much denial at its best.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

^ Which as will lead to swapping out in different situations.

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Why? I can just play with a character for example who had full healing gear and I can stay in my tank dps gear and do the same fight fine. Or he can go half heal half damage for example and I can go full tank.

If you go too much in one, enrage timers will get you. If you do too much on the other you might not survive. You have to balance out what your play-styles are. There IS no best set.

http://i.imgur.com/QWvGqRX.png

Its all playstyles. Its all what and whom your playing with. Its all about the group.

If your group leans too much in one direction you will have a hard time. However your right, some times one direction for one character might be better, or it might be worse. Or it could be what "you think" is better and someone else might come along and prove another way is better.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Why? I can just play with a character for example who had full healing gear and I can stay in my tank dps gear and do the same fight fine. Or he can go half heal half damage for example and I can go full tank.

If you go too much in one, enrage timers will get you. If you do too much on the other you might not survive. You have to balance out what your play-styles are. There IS no best set.

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But there will be best gear-sets for an encounter. You may choose not to wear it, but that doesn't mean it won't exist.

EDIT: I already responded to your diagram on the last page, you don't need to re-post it. -_____-

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

But saying it won't bloat inventories because people won't be carrying all the different pieces needs to counter an encounter is pretty much denial at its best.

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Denial? How so? Your the only one presuming to speak for everyone here. Some people will carry a lot of equipment pieces thats true. But not everyone. Some but will switch equipment pieces around a lot, but not everyone.


The only time when inventory bloat is a given is when equipment is required. For example my main hand section of the armory is always bloated because its a hard requirement to have a main hand weapon/tool in order to activate a class.

What you are talking about would be having your inventory filled with for example 10 weapons of the same type, but with different stats. And that is not a requirement, but a choice.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

Denial? How so? Your the only one presuming to speak for everyone here. Some people will carry a lot of equipment pieces thats true. But not everyone. Some but will switch equipment pieces around a lot, but not everyone.


The only time when inventory bloat is a given is when equipment is required. For example my main hand section of the armory is always bloated because its a hard requirement to have a main hand weapon/tool in order to activate a class.

What you are talking about would be having your inventory filled with for example 10 weapons of the same type, but with different stats. And that is not a requirement, but a choice.

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I'm not speaking for everyone, but thanks for the insinuation ;) Not everyone hordes gear for glamour, everyone likely won't for this. But to say that no-one will and that it won't bloat any inventories. That is denial.

Whether it is a choice or not (which is a separate debate), doesn't mean inventory bloat won't happen, because this gear progression will encourage it. Just as the glamour system has.

You need a mixed.

Horizontal focus with a very slow phase out of gear.

The problem is the core design of ffxiv forces you to only have a strait vertical progression.

At this point the problem is too far gone for SE to fix. They would have to revamp the whole battle system (stat wise) and redo almost all the gear in the game. We are destined to live with a pure vertical progression model. Where every peice of gear is 100% the same as the peice before it except for looks.

There is no difference between an Ilvl 200 and a Ilvl 70 peice in FFXIV. They just scale up how hard the boss hits and how much hp it has to make you have a higher Ilvl. But honestly every single peice of gear if the same. Welcome to Boring gear, welcome to vertical progression. XI had the best gear model in the genre by a large shot, yea classes were not balanced at all but that is a different issue. Even the gear even in FFXIV 1.0 was a hell of a lot better designed stat wise then it is now.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

But there will be best gear-sets for an encounter. You may choose not to wear it, but that doesn't mean it won't exist

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No, I agree that there isn't a best set because it depends on your skill, familiarity and style. If you are a DPS and all damage in the fight is avoidable, you would say BiS is full DPS but what if that meant one mistake and you're dead? e.g you can choose between having 1hp and 1000dps , 4000hp and 800dps or 7000hp and 500dps. BiS is 1hp 1000dps because you shouldn't get hit, does that mean you won't?

Same reason why DPS and healers (and even tanks before switching to str) can use VIT gear when starting off to allow for more mistakes

You should select the gear based on yourself as a player i.e. the gear caters to different playstyles which you find in a horizontal system

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

XI had the best gear model in the genre by a large shot, yea classes were not balanced at all but that is a different issue.

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Only if you loved carrying a crap load of gear with you and getting upgrades once a year if you're lucky.

Whatever interesting stats the gear in FFXI had did not make up for all the problems that it caused.

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Originally Posted by Sylkis

No, I agree that there isn't a best set because it depends on your skill, familiarity and style.

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That doesn't meant that there isn't a best set, it just means that you're not skilled enough to use the best set at its full potential.

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Originally Posted by Kiara

In an ideal world, HORIZONTAL.

But given the WoW influence and compromises, I think HYBRID (some Horizontal Gear Sets (same iLevel) w/ Unique Stats spread across 2 patches), and then item Level Increase) is fine. Example of Hybrid:

Instead of the current:

* Patch 1: i90
* Patch 3: i110
* Patch 5: i130

Hybrid would be:

* Patch 1: i90 (2 Sets of Gear)
* Patch 3: i90 (Alternate Set of Gear w/ Unique Stats)
* Patch 5: i110 (2 Sets of Gear)
* Patch 7: i110 (Alternate Set of Gear w/ Unique Stats)


It at least slows down the Gear / Stat Inflation in this game, and gives SOME feeling of your gear meaning something for a period of time.

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Patch 1. ilvl 90 Tomestone gear and Blinding coil.
Patch 3: Vertical progression otherwise there is no reason to do the content with the gear.

I'll stop there as 5 and 7 are just a repeat.

So Patch 1 we already had at launch and has been like that every other patch when we got new tomestones Second part, if the gear is needed to progress in the content it is put in, it's already Vertical progression as you are increasing effectiveness. If it's not needed, then whats the point of running the content more than once? If the unique stat gear is needed for the following content for progression, it is still vertical progression.

We update our gear once every 6 months. That is only twice a year. Which is exactly the same as the "idea" you put forward.

How long do you expect gear to last before replacing? 1 year, 2 years? 10 years? a 6 month turn around is perfectly acceptable.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

No, he's correct. If you ''need'' to swap equipment to fit the situation then its not longer horizontal since you dont actually have a choice in what to equip. Your example of elemental weapons is a good example of that.

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There will always be one objectively correct set of items to wear for every single situation in a game whether or not it has vertical or horizontal progression.

So you could never have "real" horizontal progression or whatever the argument is.

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Originally Posted by Instrumentality

There will always be one objectively correct set of items to wear for every single situation in a game whether or not it has vertical or horizontal progression.

So you could never have "real" horizontal progression or whatever the argument is.

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Too many people are way too attached to an older game, stuck in a previous generation.