"I Was Out of That!" (Some Life Lessons)

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Originally Posted by Eye_Gore

"So how's your new game?" "I don't know haven't played it yet, too busy watching videos about it" "Why don't you just play it and learn it?" "Oh yeah"

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New game? I'm talking about ex primals and coil, ostensibly end game content.

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Originally Posted by Anna_Lannis

All I got from YOUR post is that you "time" is more precious than RL incidents.

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You're coming across as very aggressive to me. I'm sorry you've misunderstood my post(s) to such a degree. I will try again and address your points 1-by-1.

1) I don't think my time is more important than anyone else's. However, it IS important. I'm not asking for more respect, just a mutual respect. If I can't contribute because a RL thing came up or I'm lagging or whatever, I politely leave. I practice what I "preach." You won't find any hypocrisy from me on this subject. I try to be very fair-minded. I even give people multiple chances (and don't just kick them if they die once, for example).

2) This may not be customer service but the point still holds that people value you for what you can do for them (even if it's just that you make them feel good by being kind, for example). Most of the time, the people you get in DF are complete strangers. This means that they have a neutral opinion of you until you do or don't do something. Once you become the cause for the group's continued failure, their patience will begin to wear. This doesn't justify their being hostile to you. I don't think this is warranted and I have never advocated that in any of my posts. My point is just that this hostility is not arising out of nothing and you're letting your internal defender limit your growth both as a player and as a person if you reject every criticism out of hand as being just the attitude of an elitist jerk or troll.

3) The motivation behind my post was to share thoughts. I was not remotely upset when I wrote it. Yes my Titan DF group was bad but I actually didn't mind. I didn't go into DF expecting to one-shot (though this has happened before). I was just bored. I even stated in my OP that what happened just got me thinking. I realize that a good many people post threads/comments on here as an emotional response to something that happened but I was in a great mood when I started this thread. I just thought I had some useful insights that someone might benefit from. That was my only motivation. I was not expecting to change DF groups in any noticeable way. I thought some players might find my ideas cool. That's all.

4) I don't "hate" bad groups. I'm not trying to sound elitist. I'm not telling people to "get good." I'm not trying to "stand on a soapbox." Again, just trying to share ideas that I have found useful for my own personal growth. You're right that no one is obligated to change anything to suit my view of reality and I'm not trying to get them to. However, do I think it would be cool if something I shared helped someone be a better player or better person? Yes. I think that would be neat.

You've accused me of a good many things and you've made a lot of assumptions about me but the truth is that you don't really know me. You could give me the benefit of the doubt. After all, isn't that what you'd like me to do if you were to die to weight of the land over and over?

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Originally Posted by Tuathaa

Stopped reading right there. You got a bad group in Duty Finder and we are supposed to be surprised or sympathetic. Other than the main quests Duty Finder is optional and really isn't for progression, gearing or speed runs its meant for a way for casuals to see content and experience dungeons/raids. You are paid a bonus for putting up with newbs/scrubs and as a tank you are paid an even greater bonus. Either deal with it or stick to statics and premades.

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You're also making assumptions. I was not complaining about a bad group in DF. Please reread my OP. I'm not trying to garner sympathy because of a bad DF group. I was just trying to share ideas I thought were cool. However, I seem to have touched a nerve. This is the internal defender I talked about in my OP. It seems like people are responding with a great deal of fear as though I am calling them out. I'm not. I'm taking sociology classes and learning to see myself through the eyes of others. I think this is a useful skill to have, don't you think?

I shared some of what I've learned because I thought some might find it helpful to know how the other side sees you (when you wipe the group over and over or always blame forces outside of yourself, whether it's the truth or not e.g. lag). I didn't just criticize, I've offered many ideas for improvement. I highly recommend the book The Question Behind the Question. It helped me understand some issues about personal accountability that I didn't realize before. Spoiler alert: the "question behind the question" is what I shared in my OP - "What can I do right now to improve this situation?" I think it's a very constructive question to ask :)

Because you *ARE* being a shallow arsehat. People join DF because without DF we'd be shouting for hours. DF is there to make a party for you. If you don't like noobs, don't party with noobs. Don't want to party with noobs, then don't use DF, make your own party or join an raiding group. If you want to down difficult content, you need a static group. If you can't find a static group because of TIME... maybe 1) raiding content isn't for you, because raiding content wasn't meant to be done and 2) you are the one that sucks and no one will raid with you.

You argument is just a variation of FFXI's "i kicked a person out of my party because I have 4 other people to "think about"". It not always one person against the party. You weren't doing it for the party's benefit, you were doing it for yours.

It's not really what you say, its how you back it up. It's not "basic simple logic". You join a random group of people that didn't give what you wanted... you weren't able to form a party for your raid, and by your "basic simple logic" you are the failure. Oh, you didn't have time? Not the other 7 people in the DF's fault. Oh, my friends/guildmates/etc. are "bizzy" and I don't want to bother them. That's still not 7 other people's problem. You love to use one person's mistake to form a mob, because you queued for a random group instead of having the patience to form one that met your standards. It is *not* random people's obligation to meet your standards. When you do group content, you are doing it with friends, acquaintances, or strangers... which means you are "bothering" SOMEONE, which means by "basic simple logic"... you are using OTHER PEOPLE'S TIME.

Your first mistake is expecting easy clears via DF. DF is where most players go to learn fights because that's what the game tells them to do. Enter pretty much anything with DF and 90% of the time you'll get at least one "Hi, this is my first time here" comment from someone. Sometimes things go well! And sometimes they don't. But the most important thing is that the players who are just learning the fight have as much of a right to be there as you, so if you can't deal with that fact, go make a PF to your specifications.

Also, watching a video only does so much to prepare you. You can know what the mechanics of a fight are but not know how to respond to them until you've actually - wait for it - been in the instance for yourself and seen how the fight works.

Sigh, can we clarify please? I don't want or need anyone to prepare for story content - dungeons, hm primals etc. That should be done blind, and that's great.

But yes, I find it polite to TRY and prepare for ex primals and coil. Will I throw a fit or insult them? Of course not! If they are willing to learn, I'm happy to help. But that seems to be the minority. I'm just tired of first timers silently hoping for a carry, because they don't seem to be interested in learning the fight, they just want their clear.

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Originally Posted by Anna_Lannis

This has to be the top of the list for being the most preachy self-righteous threads I have seen in a long time. It is a lot to actually go on a high horse and say these things. This argument all boils down elitists vs. scrubs. Elitists want to farm and get gear as efficiently as possible, and scrubs just want... to get gear and effortless as possible. Both types demand instant gratification, with the mentality that "others" exist with the mentality that if someone doesn't give you what you want right away, then that person is holding you back from getting your content and you gear and what ever else you want, and according to you, their automatically wrong, so to you its okay to abuse them.

Your argument is the same is everyone elses "omg these people are noobs" thread, and most people bring up "one person vs. the whole party" scenario. One person doesn't get what they want right away, so they throw a fit and bandwagon the one person who screwed up, and then mob mentality forms. What happens next is flawed people beating on equally flawed people. Even if you make a mistake everyone has rights no one has any right to abuse other people and ganging up one someone to get what you want out of from them makes you cowards. No, I don't care if it keeps you from getting "your" relic, or getting "your" gear, etc. It's not "your" gear unless you earn it, and you earn it by helping "other" people clear content.

Titan EX is the most stupid example you could have come up with. I know people are always going to use lag as an excuse. But for someone who can speedrun dungeons with the best of them, I can go into that fight and be 20 yards away and still get hit by all four plumes, just have doing everything perfect thought my entire day. You can bat this around about ping and animations and cast bars, etc. But Titan EX is a badly designed fight. Something like this belongs in a single-player shooter game, if one person doesn't dodge a bullet, we all die. Everyone has different tolerance thresholds for things like that, its why it doesn't belong especially with the delay the game has. There isn't an excuse why I can dodge other things in FATES and hunt bosses with wide AoEs and 50+ people and be absolutely fine, but I can't spint from the center of the Navel's arena to the edge and get killed.

Your argument is the same is everyone elses "omg these people are noobs" thread, and most people bring up "one person vs. the whole party" scenario. One person doesn't get what they want right away, so they throw a fit and bandwagon the one person who screwed up, and then mob mentality forms. What happens next is flawed people beating on equally flawed people. Even if you make a mistake everyone has rights and ganging up one someone to get what you want from them makes you cowards. With the inner defense mechanism (which exists for reason, we can't give in to every advice and every demand people ask from us), you also have an inner attack mechanism were we trying give "advice" which is generally biased toward the advice giver.

Final Fantasy XIV is an MMO and a video game. It's a not a job. I'm the kind of person who does well in speed-running dungeons and solo healing EX content, but it's not a job. We don't need people who are in the military or work a crappy job like "customer service" and bring their hardships into this game where it doesn't belong. When I was running low level content for <insert reason here>, and when I see new people coming in said content and constantly apologized every time something happened, and it is incredibility depressing and incredibility stupid. It's a game. It's supposed to be a social experience, and if you go into a dungeon or other content thinking you have to please everyone and be the AAA player 100% of the time, its going to burn you out. Final Fantasy players have kept a long, long, LONG standing tradition of alienating new players; in FFXI we all wanted to get to level 75 the fastest, we all wanted our BLM burn and SMN burn and melee burn parties. When we get to 75, all we focused on was "endgame" stuff: Sea, sky, kings, limbus, etc. etc. etc. All over the forums people complained over and over and over about how they could never clear the story content of Zilart and Promathia because no one would help them. It didn't matter how good these new players actually were; as far as Mainstream Playerbase was considered, they weren't level 75, and especially if they weren't BLM, BRD, RDM, etc. they were considered invalid. Because content was no longer new, and because people needed to pass said content to unlock, and endgame was the only thing anyone ever did, compounded with the fact that old level 75 people left the game and because "endgame" is the only thing ever does, and you need a "party" to be able to do anything outside of farm BY YOUSELF or PUG with strangers you wont ever see again in the same EXP parties 99.9% of the time, all the wonderful adventure and scenery and challenge that FFXI was supposed ot have was ignored. All this simply because it was "selfish" to ask someone for OTHER PEOPLE'S TIME.

The only way a person can get better in an MMO is to use OTHER PEOPLE'S TIME. You need to level a job, OTHER PEOPLE'S TIME. Need to gear or pass old content so you can help your guild or linkshell with the new stuff... OTHER PEOPLE'S TIME. Someone die in an dungeon and had to respawn and spend two whole minutes "it may be your two minutes but it the parties eight minutes". OTHER PEOPLE'S TIME. Wait a few minutes before pulling a hunt mob, OTHER PEOPLE'S TIME "it may be your two minutes but it's the fifty somethings hour and a half(not that the average hunter care about the "other people". If you're not using OTHER PEOPLE'S TIME, you aren't playing an MMO, ask someone to raise you to get exp back, OTHER PEOPLE'S TIME. Look how much solo stuff has been put in; everyone ignored the mechanics and insisted on burning Promathia content, people ignored the abilities from classes that weren't "prommy" jobs, and people got sloppy. After awhile the level cap had to be removed. Aht Urghan gave us Colibri and the BRD population exploded, and now people only merited on 4 jobs, and the skills of other jobs got rusted. No matter how well you were at Puppetmaster, Dancer, or Dragoon, the pointed you to... CAMPAIGN, in Wings of the Goddess. And guess what? It was supposed to be a "team effort" but no one cared about doing the objectives... it was basically auto-attack stuff for exp, /BRD groups playing buff songs and turning in tags in, and so on. Next up we have the three "mini-expansions", oh I'm sorry, you didn't jump on the bandwagon when content was out? Good luck getting the most badly designed encounters done, where if you fail at any point, you have to redo the whole thing, and omg... OTHER PEOPLE'S TIME. Now we have Abyseea, so now you can have several fully merited jobs you don't give a damn about, and everyone levels for the sake of leveling, and now all pretense of "community" is dropped. The easier and more solo-able content becomes, the worse the community gets... but god forbid anyone inconvenience anyone else even for a few minutes and if something happens to us, we get to rage and if happens outside out clique, then suck it up.

All of the stuff from the community carries over to FFXIV: ARR... we are not, nor ever will be "a realm reborn". Yes, we no longer have to shout for parties, we don't have to RNG to craft stuff, or farm crawlers and bees for hours. It no longer takes a year and a day to get the "endgame" server. Gone are the open world dungeons you never wanted to explore, unless the game forced you to to unlock endgame content, because thats all Mainstream Playerbase wants is the endgame. All the BS that Mainstream Playerbase goes on and on about being hardcore, about wanting to be the best, all while Square Enix dumbs down content so you can do it "efficently". Let's complain about "echo" buffs, the fact that we can have every craft at 50 and no one has to "interact" with each other if we don't want to. Let's complain that no one reads up on fights, when way back when in FFXI no one else read up on a fight... it was SMN burn or equivalent or nothing, and then never touch the content again. Let's complain about how it's a theme park where everything outside coil and EX primals has zero difficulty and STILL people will act like an entitled elitist, because all of these filthy casuals are trying to pile into my raids and leech gear, while you're doing the same thing in hunts... because OTHER PEOPLE'S TIME. Let's all play an MMO and actually make everything easy and soloable becasue god forbid.. OTHER PEOPLE'S TIME.

And you wonder why people cannot pass coil and raiding content... because everyone who played 1-50 back in 2.0 wasn't playing a Final Fantasy game, they were watching a movie. If they make a game, you know a GAME, make the final boss an actual challenge you need to actually need coordinated people, and if people are to help new players do content.. OMG... OTHER PEOPLE'S TIME. 2.0 was supposed to be Final Fantasy's great revival. It seemed like that... until Titan Hard Mode. 90% of the time people couldn't get better at it because someone would ragequit 10 minutes into the DF. Now everyone and his mom has a relic. I remember T5 was the toughest content to clear, now with 20% echo buffs and the "top players" moving on to the next thing, the content is even harder and people try to rush it and screw up the mechanics. The "top players" rush, and haze, harass, and goad everyone else into making sure thier "precious time" in the game isn't wasted,
and new people emulate other people. As soon as hunts came in, everyone dropped the pretense of "community" and stepped all over each other to get maor endgame lewt. Maor moar moar moar... NAO NAO NAO NAO... do it my way, I want to have "fun", its your job to make sure I have "fun". It's the way it has always been... we now have a zero consequence paradise where everyone can get whatever they want for free, but have this small part of content for the tryhards and everyone wonders why the community acts the way they do. Even the NPCs do it: In 2.0 everyone banded together to fight the Evil Empire and save Eoreza, now in 2.55 once the MC served his/her purpose we get stripped of our Plot Armor and now everyone deserted or died
on us. Let's face it. Eoreza is just Vand'diel 2.0, no one care about you unless you have something they want, and when you are done being useful, you get thrown away. But lets blame the Big Bad Wolf Gaius for trying to save the Eoreza from itself. Eoreza DESERVED the meteor Naus val Darnus threw at it. When you force people to actually play a game, they won't; they'd rather have it handed to them and then give gear to play Pretty Princess Dress up in, always obsessing over the latest fashion. End game loot is nothing more to people than vanity gear. I could have well as just spend the time in the gold saucer, at least when I get stuff from their my character upgrade is permanent and I don't have to learn a new fight, with new people, who only care about me to get them gear, and if I take time off to say, go to college or something, I can't expect my "friends" to go back and help me clear content I didn't get to do when it was new... hey look, lets go whack the Green Colibri in the Howling Eye 2000 times. People don't want to learn anything, they want performance and they want results.

Let's get mad at the Wolf and call him selfish for killing and eating an Antlope, while calling the Antlope selfish for running from a Wolf. Let's all find a way to be Police Officers and make excuses to attack someone and tell them its for their own good. Becasue people actually have an obligation to stroke you, because your time is precious and you don't want it wasted. Let's all just clear this and get to the next thing, so we can get to the next thing, and then get to the next thing again.

Duty Finder is a form a PUGing, and they are called "Pick-Up Groups" for a reason. EX primals and coils are not meant to be puggable. The DF is made so you can practice it. The problem is with the way they community is, the whole "I want my loot NAO while I swing my epeen oh look I hit the mob for L33T damage" mentality that infects everyone. The way Final Fantasy is now, the way people are now, when a noob sneaks into a farm party, I absolutely do not blame them. Why? Because the community ENCOURAGED the "flock the path of least resistance" behavior. Can you honestly look back at the last two years and look at me with a stright face and tell me ANY of the encounters so far where designed with longevity in mind? Why do you think Turn 4 in the First Coil is farmable (because its a wave of trash mobs), or why Turn 5 and Leviathan EX strategies involving caster LB don't work anymore? No? Well guess what? Welcome to Theme Park Fantasy XIV your Dream Paradise where Square Enix gave everyone what they wanted... a world were we could PRETEND to be a community, where we don't take up OTHER PEOPLE's TIME. Let's all tell the same rehashed BS and shove as much Final Fantasy fan-service

OP... you haven't said ANYTHING that has not already been said. People are noobs, people want gear, people don't want to learn, people should compensate for server latency that should not exist... You made up this entire thread because you wanted the attention. Go make your own party with an endgame linkshell or form a free company if this is going to be your attititude. The DF doesn't exist to power level your character, it exists so people can get into a random party if they don't have the time to form one manually. If you hit the DF and found players you were incompatible with, the go find someone else to play with and don't whine on the forums like a crybaby. While your at it, stop talking like a fortune cookie.

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Come on, that's not fair.

You can't skip over the whole thread and expect us to read your opinionated garbage.

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Originally Posted by Anna_Lannis

Because you *ARE* being a shallow arsehat. People join DF because without DF we'd be shouting for hours. DF is there to make a party for you. If you don't like noobs, don't party with noobs. Don't want to party with noobs, then don't use DF, make your own party or join an raiding group. If you want to down difficult content, you need a static group. If you can't find a static group because of TIME... maybe 1) raiding content isn't for you, because raiding content wasn't meant to be done and 2) you are the one that sucks and no one will raid with you.

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And this is why NA DF is trashy. People acting like only players who have clears and filters their PFs are allowed to make PFs like it's some kind of monopoly. Learning and progression parties in PF? "Ain't nobody got time for that! People like us shouldn't be made to wait! Every concession has to be made so that we can get into instances and press buttons randomly asap!". Go ahead and lay claim to the DF for people like you and treat any urging to play decently or bow out gracefully like some kind of invasion to your last bastion and achieve less than your betters.

Bragging about speed run healing...Ha!

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Originally Posted by Gardes

And this is why NA DF is trashy. People acting like only players who have clears and filters their PFs are allowed to make PFs like it's some kind of monopoly. Learning and progression parties in PF? "Ain't nobody got time for that! People like us shouldn't be made to wait! Every concession has to be made so that we can get into instances and press buttons randomly asap!". Go ahead and lay claim to the DF for people like you and treat any urging to play decently or bow out gracefully like some kind of invasion to your last bastion and achieve less than your betters.

Bragging about speed run healing...Ha!

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You might have a point if the game itself didn't say "Use the Duty Finder to enter [name]" for every single dungeon/trial you get. You can't blame players for doing what the game tells them to do and using DF.

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

You're also making assumptions.

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Assumptions are opinions which your first post is full of and is largely unsubstantiated. With 4 mil subscribers you have only sampled a minute portion and do not have the necessary sample base to accuse the whole community or a portion there of. Sure there are always going to be players that do not take responsibility for their mistakes and blame things are outside of their control. An attitude which is becoming way to prevalent in this society but there are also things outside of a players control that actually exists such as lag which you are failing to recognize.
In my opinion whether you meant it that way or not the post is an incredibly passive aggressive whine fest about how other people don't play the game you want them to and how they fail to meet your expectations.
You have even "suggested" methods for people to correct the behavior you find unfavorable so you have a better experience. Although not specifically stated that way it is the perceivable intonation of the post.

I personally have never had an experience in DF like the basis of your post so I say again if you don't like DF don't do it.

I'm honestly at a loss for words as to how people are so lost as to what you are saying, Purrfect. I hear you and I think your "argument" is brilliant. For everyone else saying Purrfect is an elitist prick, calm down. You don't understand what is being said. What's being said is fair, no one is being attacked, no one is being told they need to get good, no one is complaining about DF groups being garbage. In fact, what is being said is simply an argument both sides should take note of. Everyone in this game is putting in some amount of time. Everyone SHOULD respect that and be aware of that. They won't but they should.

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Originally Posted by Clarkamite

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Agreed. Some people have even admitted that they didn't read the entire OP after getting to a part they didn't like. How ignorant is that? Then they proceed to post their "opinion" about the OP after not reading, bash Purrfect with personal insults, and ignore anything she says because of the impression they get from what little they did read.

Just another day on the official forums!

OP, you are the one who decided to come on the internet a make a post, and whether or not it had the intended effect or not, this is what you did: You went to PUG in the DF. The DF you choose to do, for whatever reason, was Titan EX. Titan EX is a fight many people have problems with because people have issues with the server, they know the fight, they move when they are suppose to, but they get hit anyway. Yes, people will use lag as an excuse, but that's the way life is. 1) You are asking people to adjust to a game design flaw. In today's world, that simply isn't tolerated. 2) Most people don't really have a problem dodging AoEs, but when I go into a private instance with 8 people and one monster I don't expect to lag if I don't in the open world. 3) This is the internet, and every post, no matter how thoughtful, well researched and logical it sounds to you, its going to be looked at by millions of people... when you put something on the internet, it is there forever. You make a decision to post something controversial on the internet and didn't expect 13 pages of people arguing about who is in the right and who is in the wrong. That's what the internet is for. All of your sociology doesn't work because of how you put the information to use. You can't expect to throw around bibles, creeds, and morals around and not start an argument.

TL;DR welcome to the internet. welcome to politics

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Originally Posted by Clarkamite

I'm honestly at a loss for words as to how people are so lost as to what you are saying, Purrfect. I hear you and I think your "argument" is brilliant. For everyone else saying Purrfect is an elitist prick, calm down. You don't understand what is being said. What's being said is fair, no one is being attacked, no one is being told they need to get good, no one is complaining about DF groups being garbage. In fact, what is being said is simply an argument both sides should take note of. Everyone in this game is putting in some amount of time. Everyone SHOULD respect that and be aware of that. They won't but they should.

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This. 10Char

The OP still fails to understand not everyone agrees with her. The biggest issue I have is the way she made her point, and the way she acted on the information.

If you know you have lag issues (temporary or just for a specific fight), why bother entering DF being a dead weight to the group? Are people really that ignorant and selfish nowadays? If you put up a PF and ask directly for a carry your clear chances are probably higher than getting carried in Titan EX using DF...

http://i.imgur.com/7GvmqZo.gif

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Originally Posted by Ulathskullsplitter

Those first groups to clear it weren't in DF. They were in a group with friends who all understood they were new and learning the fight. Once a fight has been out for a while and you are using DF with 7 strangers it is polite to go in knowing what you are doing instead of holding back 7 other players.

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Funny thing is, first thing they do when they enter is ask what to do. So they refuse to read a guide yet expect others to write out a guide for them to read. Sense, it does not make any..... Also, what about those who enter with a language selected that they are unable to understand with no knowledge of the fight also?

They don't work out too well ^_^

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Originally Posted by Almalexia

Come on, that's not fair.

You can't skip over the whole thread and expect us to read your opinionated garbage.

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Omg I finally finished his book. It was a good read. If you are in to Ffxi. That's mainly what he keeps referring to. And what's his deal? He so aggressive. Was he in the party that open is talking about? Does he even know what this thread is about? Remove char limit invoke reading skill test to post. Bye Felicia.

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Originally Posted by Lilyarel

... You do realize there is an actual delay between client and actually moving?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0bMV6BVJSU

Go to 1:00

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That WHM was just bad. keyboard turning, Mouse clicker for everything slows you down a helluva lot. Only lag was player lag in that, not connection. Just look how long he takes to respond to moving out of landslides. He stays within the telegraph for nearly 3 seconds.

Once you get used to hotkeying everything and using the mouse to move and steer, you never look back.

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

You might have a point if the game itself didn't say "Use the Duty Finder to enter [name]" for every single dungeon/trial you get. You can't blame players for doing what the game tells them to do and using DF.

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If you create a party in PF, what menu do you enter the duty from?. Duty finder. If you create a full premade how do you initiate the fight. Duty finder menu.

The game tells you to use duty finder because that's the ONLY WAY to do it. Stop conflating duty finder with solo cue. Even premade use df. That's why the game tells you to use it. It's the name of the function to enter any and all instances in all circumstances.

think people.

OP makes some very good points. Nice one. :)

I'd like to take this one step further and say this: As a player in a group with seven other people, you also have some responsibility to ensure that the tools with which you play are up to par. By this of course I mean your Internet connections. If one person continually drags the others down because of a shite ADSL link that was bad when it was installed 25 years ago, that is not fair on the party. I know this is bringing real-life variables into the game and that many people have little control over these things, but still: If your connection is a detriment to the group, that is as good a reason as any not to run that content.

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Originally Posted by Yukariko

"I was out of that" is complete bullshit

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Actually, it's a very real problem - When you're playin

Oh yeah, I'm being aggressive because people in FFXI play FFXIV expecting it to be different and not FFXI in a bright shiny package filled with nostalgia goggles and . Oh, I'm being a aggressive because OP is making the same argument everyone else is making, and pointing out some self-help books to seem wise and sagacious. "Hey look at me, I'm ARTSY!" Oh maybe I'm being aggressive because aggressive is a fancy sounding word politicians use to smear people?

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I'd like to take this one step further and say this: As a player in a group with seven other people, you also have some responsibility to ensure that the tools with which you play are up to par. By this of course I mean your Internet connections. If one person continually drags the others down because of a shite ADSL link that was bad when it was installed 25 years ago, that is not fair on the party. I know this is bringing real-life variables into the game and that many people have little control over these things, but still: If your connection is a detriment to the group, that is as good a reason as any not to run that content.

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THIS again. Why is it always one person against seven other people? One person is not always to blame. Just how many times in a group the same person over and over again? Most times its group A on mechanic X, and then next wipe is by person B and C on mechanic Y and Z. This isn't exactly the "growth" mentality OP is talking about, unless by "growth" mentality you mean, give everyone what they want and telling people what they want to hear, because its popular and that makes it the "right thing". One person against the group is another fortune cookie tactic. Next reply will involve words like "hard work" and "common sense".

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Originally Posted by seekified

If your connection is a detriment to the group, that is as good a reason as any not to run that content.

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Until such time you experience such issues out of your control.

and yes - the speed of light is out of everyone's control.

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Originally Posted by XiXiQ

Until such time you experience such issues out of your control.

and yes - the speed of light is out of everyone's control.

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My point stands - if your circumstances don't allow you to perform as required to clear a fight, then don't make that everybody else's problem. I'm not talking random disconnects and occasional freezelags here, we all have those - I mean people getting into Titan HM/EX with a connection that consistently puts them a full second behind reality. Yeah, it's a shame, but stuff can almost always be done to improve a connection and if not, well... I dunno. I guess I'm just very tired of having my own experience ruined by other people's technical issues.

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Originally Posted by Anna_Lannis

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I'm sorry what? Between all your banter and you bringing up ffxi I'm not sure why you are this emotional.

This topic is about the OP expressing an opinion. This opinion is about how people in general view using duty finder.

The comment about internet connection had an if in it. "IF". I admire passion but you are just throwing out random commentary in a very stand-offish (is that a better mix of words for you) matter. My point is calm down and read.

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Originally Posted by Anna_Lannis

THIS again. Why is it always one person against seven other people? One person is not always to blame. Just how many times in a group the same person over and over again? Most times its group A on mechanic X, and then next wipe is by person B and C on mechanic Y and Z. This isn't exactly the "growth" mentality OP is talking about, unless by "growth" mentality you mean, give everyone what they want and telling people what they want to hear, because its popular and that makes it the "right thing". One person against the group is another fortune cookie tactic. Next reply will involve words like "hard work" and "common sense".

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I never said it is, all I meant is that it is my personal opinion that as gamers who play with and rely on other gamers we should ensure that our tools can do the job we need them to. People randomly screwing up mechanics isn't a problem, that's just how the game works and I'm fine with that as long as everyone tries to learn from it. When it becomes clear that one person's client is, as I said, a full second or more behind the server though, that is a problem that I do think that player should take responsibility for.

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Originally Posted by seekified

I guess I'm just very tired of having my own experience ruined by other people's technical issues.

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There's an easy way to avoid that: don't use DF. Use PF and set your own rules. Otherwise, with DF, you get what you get, and sometimes that means you get a party that isn't capable of clearing the fight. That's just something you have to expect when you queue up for something via DF.

These days, just about every fight outside of Final Coil can be completed with a couple of people dead on the floor. One person failing at mechanics and dying shouldn't make that much of a difference, and if it does, that means the rest of the party probably isn't that great either.

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

There's an easy way to avoid that: don't use DF. Use PF and set your own rules. Otherwise, with DF, you get what you get, and sometimes that means you get a party that isn't capable of clearing the fight. That's just something you have to expect when you queue up for something via DF.

These days, just about every fight outside of Final Coil can be completed with a couple of people dead on the floor. One person failing at mechanics and dying shouldn't make that much of a difference, and if it does, that means the rest of the party probably isn't that great either.

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Yeah, absolutely. That's usually what I do for anything that's not faceroll content. I just think that on some level it's kind of disrespectful to play networked games with bad network circumstances, but I know that's a harsh thing to say.

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I never said it is, all I meant is that it is my personal opinion that as gamers who play with and rely on other gamers we should ensure that our tools can do the job we need them to. People randomly screwing up mechanics isn't a problem, that's just how the game works and I'm fine with that as long as everyone tries to learn from it. When it becomes clear that one person's client is, as I said, a full second or more behind the server though, that is a problem that I do think that player should take responsibility for.

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The problem with Titan EX is that no one know if they are going to lag until they actually go into the fight. You can stack and move with everyone else, and still get hit even if your on the edge of the arena.

"But one person shouldn't hold down the group!" It's NEVER, just one person. Competent player A goes into Titan EX, and clear it after on hour of attempts. Then Competent Player A wants to farm, so he get joins Competent Player B, and he joined by Noob A who is on a DPS job, and Noob B who is on a tank job. Everything goes fine until phase 2 and its time to stack and move with everyone else and gets plumed. Next attempt. Noob A get hit with a landslide, but Noob is a DPS and no one cares about DPS because they are a dime a dozen, and DPS aren't important (no this is not my attitude, this is general MMO attitude), and Landslide doesn't require a stack. Next attempt Competent player B gets a phone call in the middle of the fight because RL happens. Next attempt, Competent Player A is goaled and isn't broken out in time, and gets Granite Sepulchered, gets raised, and had to make a choice to heal the tank that got Mountain Bustered NAO, or a dodge a plume. Either way Competent Player A takes blame. Competent Player B ragequits, takes 5 minutes to replace. Next up Competent Player A gets broken out of a goal too early, and is landslided. New person goes on rant about how much Competent Player A sucks. A few wipes later, Noob B doesn't get the adds and people start taking more damage then they are supposed to, and Competent Player A can't heal because he spent the last of his MP raising two people. Noob B doesn't get kicked, because Noob B is a tank and tanks are rare, and Noob A says nothing is his fault because the parser says he's top deeps, never mind that he broke you out of a goal 3 times. As time goes on people get more and more frustrated, and start blaming each other, causing performance to suffer, and then group disbands. Now Noob A and Noob B get their clique together and spreads things about Competent Player A, and now Competent player A's reputation is shot even though he lagged maybe twice in the 20 something wipes.

This problem is more complex then just the internet. This fight brings the worst out in people because their is dissonance between being out of an AoE in other areas and this one.

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Originally Posted by seekified

I guess I'm just very tired of having my own experience ruined by other people's technical issues.

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What you're ACTUALLY tired of is SE's crap programming that gives no regard to the fact that some people are further away from the server than you are. Try blaming the actual cause, rather than the people who have to put up with it day in and day out.

You guys are taking this way too specifically. xD I have a very general point about bad client-side connections and gaming, that's all. Not particular fights, not even particular games - the Titan remark was just an example on the result that such problems can bring. And yeah, the netcode in FFXIV and the placement of the servers on the wrong continent for some of us, that aggravates the problem in our case, but still.

1. People who are just bad, but lie and use lag as an excuse 10%
2. People who don't react quickly enough, and think it must be lag when it isn't 80%
3. People who genuinely have lag 10%

Yeah numbers out my ass. While there are some that actually do have lag, they are vastly outnumbered by those that are just slow, and so as soon as anyone says "I was out of that!" I usually just assume they probably weren't. Probably not right, but just being honest, this is what I do. Sorry genuine people, too many slow people use this tired old excuse

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Originally Posted by XiXiQ

What you're ACTUALLY tired of is SE's crap programming that gives no regard to the fact that some people are further away from the server than you are. Try blaming the actual cause, rather than the people who have to put up with it day in and day out.

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Titan ex, levi ex, or any other 'die when you're out of bound' fights including t5/9/13 can be beaten with 300 ping (while also not being a dead weight). I've probably played in a worse place than you considering I had the great firewall of china to deal with. My ping couldnt go any lower than 280 but on stable days, I expect myself to be able to tackle those fights without struggle. You should be able to too. If dodging those mechanics are actually RNG on a regular basis, it's your ISP, not SE.

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

TLDR

- Don't make excuses (no one cares why you cannot execute)
- How people feel about you is proportional to the value you provide them
- What we lack in natural ability can be compensated for with practice and hard work
- You can't control what others do. It is wrong to ask "Why do these things happen to me?" Instead ask: "What can I do right now to make this situation better?"
- Don't be afraid to step outside of your comfort zone once in a while

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I mostly agree. When people say "I was out" it's not they think there was an error on the server and they really were out, just that they thought they were out. People who arrive to Titan EX know they have to be out of the AoE way before the animation comes, if not they will be killed. Sometimes you get killed the equivalent of 5 meters out of the place.

Things happen at different moments in you PC and the server. I usually arrive first to a door and when I open it, the guy that arrived clearly later had already opened it and my action is interrupted. In divebombs in T5 if you go at the same time than everybody, you are going late, you have to be a bit ahead of the group in your PC.

So I don't think when people say "I was out" they are making an excuse, just saying out loud their feelings (knowing that what they see is not what really happens in the server.)

I agree this game is multi player so if you are joining a party you should be as prepared as possible. Seeing a video or reading a guide helps just a bit to know what things look like and sort of what is going to happen, not much more in a difficult fight. But it's better than nothing.

In Europe/North American servers people usually go to Duty Finder to practice and later to Party Finder, unlike Japan where people (I read) usually practice in Party Finder and only join Duty Finder when they have exp. So if you join Duty Finder in Titan EX you know you most likely won't get a kill because probably there are some people with not enough experience there and it's a place where you have to wipe a lot of times until you can expect to win. All players being overgeared helps, but is not enough. Knowing that, I don't understand people that get desperate and quit quickly when they think that group won't kill in time. Even in helping progress groups with friends and FC members people lose patience too quickly.

Other question is most times when a group fails it's not just one person's fault. (Titan EX or T5 type of places may be exceptions since one person's fail may easily wipe the group.) The problem is when you try to see the reasons of the fail people may start to get defensive and the blame game may start, which does not help. Who was to blame is not important, what to do to improve is. And it is not always easy, sometimes there's not enough time. That's why static groups go advancing bit by bit until they, after many tries playing together, succeed.

"No one knows they are going to lag until they go into the fight." Maybe so but you surely know you're lagging by the 10th time you can't get out of something. At some point you should stop holding others back because of your problems.

"You just want your DF experience to be better." No. I was trying to help YOUR DF experience be better. People won't carry you through difficult fights but some may be hostile towards you. As I said in my original post, personal accountability helps earn the goodwill of other players. Sometimes this personal accountability means admitting you made a mistake instead of blaming lag or leaving the instance if you truly are lagging.

"You're being elitist." LOL I'm about as casual as they come. I still haven't beaten T9 and I'm far more into collecting ponies and racing my chocobo than I am in getting through Final Coil. I wrote this thread because I was personally horrible at this game when I started and I almost gave up. Players were mean to me and I was always left out of content. But I got better and it was from adopting a different mindset. Players are hardly ever mean to me now. While I don't think players should be mean to anyone, it will happen to you far more if you are holding others back for whatever reason (lag, skill, etc.) When you take steps to become a better player, the community magically seems less toxic and the game becomes more fun to play.

"This attitude is hostile to new players." No. I don't think that helping players adopt a more positive mindset is hostile to any player, new or old.

"Watching a video first is unreasonable." In David Sirlin's Playing to Win, he talks about the "rules of a scrub." These rules include making up rules beyond the actual rules of the game. For example, "I won't watch a video for <insert reason here>" Videos are helpful tools. People who do the content the first time won't have access to them. So what? By the time most people do content those videos exist. Was it possible to beat the content without videos? Sure. Is it possible to beat the content now without videos? Certainly. Do strategies change after videos are made and will new players still make mistakes? Yes and yes.

However, do videos at least give people an idea how to perform mechanics and make the jobs of other players easier (less explaining, less wiping to some mechanics)? Absolutely! So you are refusing to use a tool at your disposal because of laziness, some strange code, or stubbornness. To me the only legitimate reasons for not watching a video first are: you can't (no access to youtube for some reason) or you relish the surprises. Except in the latter case, it's not really a surprise when players who've done the fight before tell you what the mechanics are. I probably won't convince anyone on this but it basically sums up how I feel about players not watching videos.

"Wiping is never one person's fault." Well I don't agree with this. A tank could turn a mountain buster into the whole party or DPS could break someone out of a gaol into a landslide. Being down a healer from the get go can be significant pressure on the remaining healer. Besides, even if failures involve multiple people, do you really want to be one of them? The fact that you don't feel motivated to do the right thing (improve) because others will also fail to is called "diffusion of responsibility." Maybe someone else is screwing up but that one screw up you DON'T make because you bothered to improve might actually save the day. How many fights are lost at 1% where a person not dying or DPS having done perfect rotations might have saved the day? I use HQ X-Potions of Strength sometimes in these tight circumstances. I also use food if I am looking to gain an edge. You can't say little things don't matter (insta-dying on WotL or Landslide is NOT a little thing); ANYTHING could matter.

"Lag is not an excuse." Literally the definition of an excuse is just a reason to justify something, whether the reason is the truth or not. If I'm sick and don't go into work, my being sick is an excuse. It may be a good excuse but it's still an excuse. I'm sorry that some players don't like this language as they think I'm implying that I believe they're lying. This is not the case. I don't CARE whether players are lying or telling the truth about lag. Does lag help the group win? No. Does telling us all you're lagging help the group win? No. Okay well maybe because we can just kick you and replace you with someone who won't lag.

Lag does randomly happen though. You cant anticipate it.
I was doing a Levi Ex run with my friends and I suddenly started lagging something fierce. I had to reset my modem and route to fix the issue. As they say; **** happens.

Purrfectstorm, just stop. People have already taken what you meant and will eventually piss off players on both ends accordingly.

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

"No one knows they are going to lag until they go into the fight." Maybe so but you surely know you're lagging by the 10th time you can't get out of something. At some point you should stop holding others back because of your problems.

"You just want your DF experience to be better." No. I was trying to help YOUR DF experience be better. People won't carry you through difficult fights but some may be hostile towards you. As I said in my original post, personal accountability helps earn the goodwill of other players. Sometimes this personal accountability means admitting you made a mistake instead of blaming lag or leaving the instance if you truly are lagging.

"You're being elitist." LOL I'm about as casual as they come. I still haven't beaten T9 and I'm far more into collecting ponies and racing my chocobo than I am in getting through Final Coil. I wrote this thread because I was personally horrible at this game when I started and I almost gave up. Players were mean to me and I was always left out of content. But I got better and it was from adopting a different mindset. Players are hardly ever mean to me now. While I don't think players should be mean to anyone, it will happen to you far more if you are holding others back for whatever reason (lag, skill, etc.) When you take steps to become a better player, the community magically seems less toxic and the game becomes more fun to play.

"This attitude is hostile to new players." No. I don't think that helping players adopt a more positive mindset is hostile to any player, new or old.

"Watching a video first is unreasonable." In David Sirlin's Playing to Win, he talks about the "rules of a scrub." These rules include making up rules beyond the actual rules of the game. For example, "I won't watch a video for <insert reason here>" Videos are helpful tools. People who do the content the first time won't have access to them. So what? By the time most people do content those videos exist. Was it possible to beat the content without videos? Sure. Is it possible to beat the content now without videos? Certainly. Do strategies change after videos are made and will new players still make mistakes? Yes and yes.

However, do videos at least give people an idea how to perform mechanics and make the jobs of other players easier (less explaining, less wiping to some mechanics)? Absolutely! So you are refusing to use a tool at your disposal because of laziness, some strange code, or stubbornness. To me the only legitimate reasons for not watching a video first are: you can't (no access to youtube for some reason) or you relish the surprises. Except in the latter case, it's not really a surprise when players who've done the fight before tell you what the mechanics are. I probably won't convince anyone on this but it basically sums up how I feel about players not watching videos.

"Wiping is never one person's fault." Well I don't agree with this. A tank could turn a mountain buster into the whole party or DPS could break someone out of a gaol into a landslide. Being down a healer from the get go can be significant pressure on the remaining healer. Besides, even if failures involve multiple people, do you really want to be one of them? The fact that you don't feel motivated to do the right thing (improve) because others will also fail to is called "diffusion of responsibility." Maybe someone else is screwing up but that one screw up you DON'T make because you bothered to improve might actually save the day. How many fights are lost at 1% where a person not dying or DPS having done perfect rotations might have saved the day? I use HQ X-Potions of Strength sometimes in these tight circumstances. I also use food if I am looking to gain an edge. You can't say little things don't matter (insta-dying on WotL or Landslide is NOT a little thing); ANYTHING could matter.

"Lag is not an excuse." Literally the definition of an excuse is just a reason to justify something, whether the reason is the truth or not. If I'm sick and don't go into work, my being sick is an excuse. It may be a good excuse but it's still an excuse. I'm sorry that some players don't like this language as they think I'm implying that I believe they're lying. This is not the case. I don't CARE whether players are lying or telling the truth about lag. Does lag help the group win? No. Does telling us all you're lagging help the group win? No. Okay well maybe because we can just kick you and replace you with someone who won't lag.

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I don't usually agree with the mindset of having to watch a video, but your OP actually makes a lot of sense. That's why we have statics, find like minded people who would like to tackle the content from the get go, without a guide. It's not fair to jump blind to a 1 y/o content when you're 1 new guy in 1 million other players. Instead find another 7 who's new and enjoy it together.