MGP too much of a grind

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

Yeah, great, why should people like and play FF14 and just don't went on to another game, all because they are pranked with vanity item grind. Pretty sure Square loves the idea, that all the players who hate grinding just cancel their abo and go away. Why fix something like that. Even vanity is only for pro grinders! Eat this, you casual and normal gamer majority! We don't need you and your money! Right?

Nice quote, DarkDedede:
"Fun comes first. If it isn't fun, you're doing it wrong." -Naoki Yoshida

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You know, you still have never replied once about why you're still paying for and playing something you clearly have a significant amount of negative opinions about lol. About why you're complaining about grinding in a genre of game that is all about the grind. Are you doing this just to complain/troll? You're not that bad of a troll if so. Note: I am very certain you will ignore the inquiry about why you're mindlessly here, and will instead focus on the "troll" mention *hint: that was bait to prove a point*, but most of us don't expect much to begin with from people that do what you (and some others) do.

Also, the "fun" quote is always taken out of context (like it is now). Fun is subjective... it is literally impossible to find something that 100% of the human population will find fun. Clearly, they're doing something right if they're happy about the number of people that do enjoy their game. So believe it or not, for the time being, if you're not having fun but they/we are... you're doing something wrong. That quote is literally about you.

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Originally Posted by Nex

Too many white knights blindly defending rubbish design choices. Stop ruining the gaming community by accepting sub-standard products and actually DEFENDING them! The quote from the guy/girl above me sums it up, "If it isn't fun, you're doing it wrong" - Yoshi. So where does beating the same NPC at TT 1000's of times come in to this fun? Or playing 1 of 3 races another few 1000 times? Was the fun hidden away somewhere in the Atma or lights grind, crafting leve grind or beastmen tribes grind etc etc? Forcing players to do the same piece of content over and over again for something as meaningless as a TT card is outrageous and lazy design work. As I've said, the GS should have been the welcome break from grinding in basically every other aspect of the game. Instead we get an even longer term grind thrown upon us to hide the severe lack of TT cards and pitiful amount of GS attractions/prizes in general. /endtruth

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Too many mouth breathers pay for products (or subscriptions) they seem to dislike and will continue to do so, all while being part of a genre of game they don't even know they're partaking in and will resort to stating "it's my opinion and I'm entitled to it" nonsense. You are entitled to it, but it doesn't change the fact that opinions can be bad, misguided, and poorly thought out. /endtruth

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

Too many mouth breathers pay for products (or subscriptions) they seem to dislike and will continue to do so ... /endtruth

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Oh come on now. Criticisms are welcome, but resorting to insults (even when indirect) is just not necessary. I'd like to have more faith in you "lol."

You don't have to agree with an opinion, or even like that opinion. As you have stated before, no one on this forum "calls the shots." I see very little point wasting too much energy getting one's "pants in a twist" over a simple difference of opinions regarding preferred playstyles.

However, I think it would be wise to handle yourself with a bit more class. I know this is the internet, but let's leave the unnecessary antics elsewhere. It makes for a much better bedtime story.

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Originally Posted by DarkDedede

Oh come on now. Criticisms are welcome, but resorting to insults (even when indirect) is just not necessary. I'd like to have more faith in you "lol."

You don't have to agree with an opinion, or even like that opinion. As you have stated before, no one on this forum "calls the shots." I see very little point wasting too much energy getting one's "pants in a twist" over a simple difference of opinions regarding preferred playstyles.

However, I think it would be wise to handle yourself with a bit more class. I know this is the internet, but let's leave the unnecessary antics elsewhere. It makes for a much better bedtime story.

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It's true, but everyone has a bit of a trolly side to them. Whenever I see "white knight" being used, I know it's being used as an insult, so I love to goad those types lol. Only a certain class of people use "white knight" without being provoked in some way to say it. I mean, they do tend to spout comments about hating something they're continuously paying for... which logically, begs the question, why continue to pay for it? I guess you just can't win really lol (from all sides of the argument). Maybe I just have a better grasp of personal time and value than some others. /shrug

From a logical stance though, I still stand by my outlook on what to expect of these folks lol. But yes, there was no true need to make that known.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

You know, you still have never replied once about why you're still paying for and playing something you clearly have a significant amount of negative opinions about lol. About why you're complaining about grinding in a genre of game that is all about the grind.

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MMORPGS and especially FF14 is not about grinding per se. There are some grindy parts, they are indeed bad, but Square said, they want to change this. If they do not change it, of course, there is no need to stay in a game, which is the same as any other bad MMO, true. But until now, I (and many others) believe in Square's promises and are waiting for 3.0.

If they stay on this path for more and more dumb grind, yes, we will leave. Many will. Some already did.

you couldnt even name a "good" mmorpg without grinds...

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

Many will. Some already did.

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so thats why the playerbase increased from 2.5m to 4m

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Originally Posted by ServerCollaps

you couldnt even name a "good" mmorpg without grinds...



so thats why the playerbase increased from 2.5m to 4m

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Name a good MMORPG with grind. A grind like killing 10.000 monsters. And of course: it must be the main element and make you feel forced to do it. Not optional. - And forget to call the Gold Saucer optional. It's a very big new element in FF14 and designed to serve all players as fun park beside the normal stuff.

WoW? You don't have to grind there. You can, there are some things here and there, but they are very optional. If it would be a grindy game in the core, they would never had caught so many players.
Guild Wars? There are possibilities to grind, but again, you don't have to in the slightest. You don't need to grind to get good gear.
Star Wars? Didn't feel grindy, got others problems.
and so on...

By the way: Grinding is a main part of F2P games, because grinding is annoying and F2P games are supposed to have such annoying stuff inside, so people buy the packages. That may be the reason, why you think, that MMORPGs must be grindy. No. F2P MMORPGs must be grindy, else no one would buy those +X XP stuff and so on.



Playerbase does not work that way. Yes, actually it may rise, but for an MMO you must hold them the long term. If they would really have that much more ACTIVE players, there would be more servers. And you will never gain and hold a big player base with grinding. The grind is, what make people leave, all the other, good parts, FF14 got, they bring bigger numbers. The grind and rng may destroy this, if they are not careful, polluting all the good they got.

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Did you just imply that Gold Saucer isn't optional?

Hahahaha!

Show's over folks, this thread has reached its climax.

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The whole game is "optional", kid. Try to get real.

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

Name a good MMORPG with grind. A grind like killing 10.000 monsters. And of course: it must be the main element and make you feel forced to do it. Not optional. - And forget to call the Gold Saucer optional. It's a very big new element in FF14 and designed to serve all players as fun park beside the normal stuff.

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Did you just imply that Gold Saucer isn't optional?

Hahahaha!

Show's over folks, this thread has reached its climax.

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

The whole game is "optional", kid. Try to get real.

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Yeah, it never made sense. I've always wondered what non-optional content in a video game is. I still live if I don't log in one day.

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

MMORPGS and especially FF14 is not about grinding per se. There are some grindy parts, they are indeed bad, but Square said, they want to change this. If they do not change it, of course, there is no need to stay in a game, which is the same as any other bad MMO, true. But until now, I (and many others) believe in Square's promises and are waiting for 3.0.

If they stay on this path for more and more dumb grind, yes, we will leave. Many will. Some already did.

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When did they say they wanted to change the formula for MMORPGs, and thus, traditional RPGs in general? Maybe I missed that. I know they said they wanted to change their approach for certain mechanics that are all-or-nothing, like Titan, but I don't recall ever reading/hearing anything about the grind (except to ease up a little on specific content that involved that... note: that does not mean remove).

And the entire genre is about grinding (in some form or another). A repetitive process that involves bettering your character in one way or another. That's RPG at its core, don't delude yourself into thinking otherwise. I don't think anyone is arguing against the notion that too much grind is bad, but rather that you're fighting a battle that you won't win lol. You won't win it because you don't understand everything about what you're arguing against. It'd be like if I went to a CoD forum and argued that the idea of FPS games having to use guns or be in the eyes of the character to be old and lazy design. It'd be clear I don't understand what an FPS involves, particularly with the CoD series.

Also that implications that there are an overwhelming majority of players that don't understand what a traditional (see Final Fantasy style) RPG is. People leave MMOs for many reasons, please refrain from making it seem like that is not the case. If you ever choose to leave, so be it. You won't be missed, just like the rest of us won't be missed when it is our time to quit. Many leave, many join... that's a fact of the ways that consumers take part in the MMORPG market (assuming you have a hit, like this game is).

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

It'd be like if I went to a CoD forum and argued that the idea of FPS games having to use guns or be in the eyes of the character to be old and lazy design. It'd be clear I don't understand what an FPS involves, particularly with the CoD series.

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You don't even get near the point. Bad design in an FPS would be for example a bad AI, which is compensated by godlike powers, for example, that enemies ALWAYS see you. Taking guns out of a shooter would be like taking the skills out of a MMORPG. Taking grinding out of an MMORPG would leave the MMORPG completely intact. There would still be the whole game with everything, you would just not have to grind to play it effectively.

Grind is a lazy design. You don't see it in FPS, since there is seldom something to gain on the long term, so no grind is possible. FPS got other problems. Bad AI, boring/bad level design, bad UI (more important in a FPS than a MMORPG, because it's faster gameplay) and so on.

But since Square said, they will raise the MGP, I don't care any longer for this "discussion". Gone.

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

You don't even get near the point. Bad design in an FPS would be for example a bad AI, which is compensated by godlike powers, for example, that enemies ALWAYS see you. Taking guns out of a shooter would be like taking the skills out of a MMORPG. Taking grinding out of an MMORPG would leave the MMORPG completely intact. There would still be the whole game with everything, you would just not have to grind to play it effectively.

Grind is a lazy design. You don't see it in FPS, since there is seldom something to gain on the long term, so no grind is possible. FPS got other problems. Bad AI, boring/bad level design, bad UI (more important in a FPS than a MMORPG, because it's faster gameplay) and so on.

But since Square said, they will raise the MGP, I don't care any longer for this "discussion". Gone.

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I didn't mention anything about design specifically. I referred to understanding the genre as a whole. Your examples are rather poor though on that side matter. How exactly does taking the skills out of an MMORPG no longer make it an MMORPG, when the concept of grinds being removed does nothing at all? I never heard of anyone making that claim between the two. In fact, I dare say that most people would associate the grind to be more fundamental to an MMORPGs identity than "skill".

You don't see a grind in FPS games because it's not a genre associated to it. However... if you add in the RPG element, what happens? The grind is there. Borderlands is a perfect example of that, where it's an FPS and an RPG. Seriously, name a single traditional style formula RPG that does not have a grind to it? In other words, an RPG that involves leveling up and bettering your character in some way (gear, skills, etc). You can't. It doesn't exist because the genre itself involves it. You're arguing for something that cannot happen without changing the genre itself.

You could take out many things from everything that ever existed, and it would still seem to be the same. Much of the "grind" in an MMORPG involves RNG. So, lets say that you take out the RNG from an RPG. It'd be the same game right? Let's say you did the same thing with D&D. You took out the die... would you still consider it the same thing? I mean, the players are still there and the DM still exists. You only took out the random frustrating part of it. Hell, even for this game, you took out the leveling since... well, that's a perfect example of a "grind" that everyone deals with. Immediate "max" level. You really can't pick and choose your arguments when talking about a genre as a whole.

I mean, do you really believe people will stay in an MMORPG for years if they got literally everything within a week? Taking out the grind will indeed keep the content there, unchanged, but it won't keep the players there... which is exactly why it exists. Not everyone likes the grind, but that's how it works. That's part of the reason for what kept players around long enough to make MMORPGs a mainstream genre. The grind keeps players around long enough to experience many things they otherwise wouldn't from instant satisfaction. It's a design partly based around psychology (many genres of games and forms of entertainment do the same). People write books on the environment within casinos and the human brains reaction to it. Everything has some sort of underlying reason behind its existence.

Besides that though, I'm still waiting for your source of information behind much of the things you're claiming. Such as SE claiming they will remove or never add in any elements of "grind" to the game in the future.

And yes, the MGP argument is over for Chocobo Racing. I have a feeling we'll see you again shortly after complaining about it though lol.

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

Grind is a lazy design. You don't see it in FPS, since there is seldom something to gain on the long term, so no grind is possible. FPS got other problems. Bad AI, boring/bad level design, bad UI (more important in a FPS than a MMORPG, because it's faster gameplay) and so on.

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It is apparent you have no idea what you are talking about. There is grind in most FPS titles just like there is in MMO's and RPG's. FPS games have actually started more and more to add RPG style components alongside things which you grind for examples levels, gear, maps, achievements, rankings, scores and more. As said in the other thread, a grind is nothing more than having to do something multiple times whether that's for something you want or something you need. The only way to have no grind is to make every single thing you do give you every possible thing you want or need from it on your first try with zero chance of failure. Even super casual games like Candy Crush, Flappy Birds or Tetris have grind, the grind is beating your previous score or getting further than you did before.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

It is apparent you have no idea what you are talking about. There is grind in most FPS titles just like there is in MMO's and RPG's. FPS games have actually started more and more to add RPG style components alongside things which you grind for examples levels, gear, maps, achievements, rankings, scores and more. As said in the other thread, a grind is nothing more than having to do something multiple times whether that's for something you want or something you need. The only way to have no grind is to make every single thing you do give you every possible thing you want or need from it on your first try with zero chance of failure. Even super casual games like Candy Crush, Flappy Birds or Tetris have grind, the grind is beating your previous score or getting further than you did before.

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Kid, games are my job. I know these things very well. Candy Crush and co want to bleed you. They hook you, then they bleed you dry, that's the plan. Because of that, they implement game play elements, which SUCK when you don't pay. The games are indeed casual, because you don't need much time for them, you play them on your smartphone while you are waiting somewhere and so on. The grind is not. The grind is there to ANNOY them, so they spend money.

Grinding = annoying. The game industry knows this. And they use it. In MMORPG's which are not F2P (there the grind shall annoy players, too, same mechanic) it just exists to buy time. It got no other reason. An daily or weekly lockout will do the same and while also annoying, it is LESS annoying and you don't rob the time of the players, who maybe should do something else, too, in their life.

For those few who only play a game for a grind, you can just copy&paste items, write "1337" on it and sell it for 10 times the prize. Grinders are happy and can pose with their 1337 item.

Very, very, very few % of players cut through content. They much more often have a problem, that developers focus to much on this very small minority of hardcore gamers.

Take Coil. For ~90% of the FF14 players it would make not difference, if it does not exist at all. That's why Square is changing the system, into normal and HM Alexander. So they can reach more players = more people who have fun = more people who stay and wooing for the game.

Grind is the same. Sure, it is easy, but the majority of people hate it, so they feel left out again.

I know all those mechanics, how they work, how developers are using them, and even what most of them think about it (because yes, there are very bad ***** developers out there, who give a **** about players, if they wouldn't have the money they want, it's sad, but real).

If I would think, that Square is such a developer, I would not care to write here.

I was looking at the items you can buy and I'd really like to know SE's thinking in pricing in general in game? I mean if the mgp rewards were higher than I guess the item prices would be fine, but they are really very low. Sure people are running around with some of the stuff that is costly but what did it really cost them, a lot of time, many hours a day just to get 20mgp here and there. Most of the games are very boring and don't pay out much more then you pay to play them, some less...

Edit: the Moogle claw machine game is a wate of time also, if you at least had a chance of some kind of prize other than 5 mgp it might be fun.

Well, the thing is... without grind there can be no mmorpg. It is very easy to overlook it but the gaming population will ALWAYS ALWAYS outpace the design team by 100 times. Hell, there were massive grind for the original gold saucer for the onmislash remember? Also, remember, there were people asking for long term goal in game, there you go.

I can grind about 10-20k mgp at the imperial without going insane. At around 5k a hour, so roughly 2-4 hours per days. If i grind 10k a day, it will take me 20 days for the turtle mount or around 3 months for the fenrir mount. Not really unreasonable as there are no reason for people to expect to get everything week one. Then again there are people insane enough to grind the 1 million mgp for the fenrir mount in 1 week.

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Originally Posted by Wobble

I was looking at the items you can buy and I'd really like to know SE's thinking in pricing in general in game? I mean if the mgp rewards were higher than I guess the item prices would be fine, but they are really very low. Sure people are running around with some of the stuff that is costly but what did it really cost them, a lot of time, many hours a day just to get 20mgp here and there. Most of the games are very boring and don't pay out much more then you pay to play them, some less...

Edit: the Moogle claw machine game is a wate of time also, if you at least had a chance of some kind of prize other than 5 mgp it might be fun.

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Those mini games, in particular Greg and the claw game, are easily spammable, which would explain the low yield. Claw takes me no longer than 7 sec, from game start to game end, to get the red ball nearly every attempt (I do miss it from time to time). Greg is 5sec from start to end for 2-4 MGP profit (3-5 yield). That's potentially over 40 MGP profit every minute for something as simple as those games that require no prereq card farming or racing lol.

None of those 1mil items were intended to be obtained in a month, short of you winning the lottery. It's certainly possible, but that's really only for the most dedicated of players to do in that time span. It's like your gear, no one is intended to be decked out in max endgame gear equipment in a month (obvious through weekly lockout and tome cap). People seem to have a problem with MGP because there's no obvious limitations being placed on the player, similar to the gear. For people like me, this is a GREAT thing, because of the fact that they allow you to do it if you're willing to put in that degree of effort to do it lol. Compared to raid gear, a very small portion of the populous would bother to kill themselves over something solely vanity related (instead of vanity AND useful stats).

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Originally Posted by Xellos2099

Well, the thing is... without grind there can be no mmorpg. It is very easy to overlook it but the gaming population will ALWAYS ALWAYS outpace the design team by 100 times. Hell, there were massive grind for the original gold saucer for the onmislash remember? Also, remember, there were people asking for long term goal in game, there you go.

I can grind about 10-20k mgp at the imperial without going insane. At around 5k a hour, so roughly 2-4 hours per days. If i grind 10k a day, it will take me 20 days for the turtle mount or around 3 months for the fenrir mount. Not really unreasonable as there are no reason for people to expect to get everything week one. Then again there are people insane enough to grind the 1 million mgp for the fenrir mount in 1 week.

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No, it was not, maybe if you tried to get it very early on or with completely wrong methods, but it was not that hard and doing the Arena was fun anyway.


And long term goal, okay, but there are more than enough things in game. Got all classes at max and max equip? Got an own house, complete with furniture? Got all those achievements? And so on. In comparison to the absolute dumb Imperial Grind, nothing of this is worse than that.

People cried enough about grinding, I don't think that even 1% wanted GS to be another place for it. Sure, they want things, but beside some very, very small things, most of it, even most of the clothes are more expensive than Omnislash (32k GP and you could get up to 10k in Battle Square with one total victory!). 2-4 hours a day of stupid clicking is insane for many people. They don't want such things. They want to play. Defeating the Imp in TT is not playing, it's dumb clicking, hundred and thousands of times.

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It's certainly possible, but that's really only for the most dedicated of players to do in that time span.

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"Dedicated" is not really the right word, imo.

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Those mini games, in particular Greg and the claw game, are easily spammable, which would explain the low yield. Claw takes me no longer than 7 sec, from game start to game end, to get the red ball nearly every attempt (I do miss it from time to time). Greg is 5sec from start to end for 2-4 MGP profit (3-5 yield). That's potentially over 40 MGP profit every minute for something as simple as those games that require no prereq card farming or racing lol.

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Then lottery should give max 1 MGP? Because there is no effort at all. Or Typhoon GATE. 1600 MGP for doing nothing, just luck.

I don't see anyone playing the minigames, why should they? It's unrewarding. You can defeat King Elmer with a starter deck. Easy GP and bonus cards. much more effective. And in comparison to the real MGP grind in GS, getting 60 cards is almost a joke.

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

No, it was not, maybe if you tried to get it very early on or with completely wrong methods, but it was not that hard and doing the Arena was fun anyway.


And long term goal, okay, but there are more than enough things in game. Got all classes at max and max equip? Got an own house, complete with furniture? Got all those achievements? And so on. In comparison to the absolute dumb Imperial Grind, nothing of this is worse than that.

People cried enough about grinding, I don't think that even 1% wanted GS to be another place for it. Sure, they want things, but beside some very, very small things, most of it, even most of the clothes are more expensive than Omnislash (32k GP and you could get up to 10k in Battle Square with one total victory!). 2-4 hours a day of stupid clicking is insane for many people. They don't want such things. They want to play. Defeating the Imp in TT is not playing, it's dumb clicking, hundred and thousands of times.


"Dedicated" is not really the right word, imo.


Then lottery should give max 1 MGP? Because there is no effort at all. Or Typhoon GATE. 1600 MGP for doing nothing, just luck.

I don't see anyone playing the minigames, why should they? It's unrewarding. You can defeat King Elmer with a starter deck. Easy GP and bonus cards. much more effective. And in comparison to the real MGP grind in GS, getting 60 cards is almost a joke.

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First off, in most general cases (like this), you should NEVER compare the time it takes to do something for a single player game to an MMORPG. MMORPG content (as a whole, not any one given thing) is meant to keep you playing for years. I'm quite certain that FF7 content, no matter what it is, was not intended to make you play for (random number) 300+ hours total. If you do compare something, especially a game that's designed to end to one that is not, you make any argument irrelevant because you're not taking mandatory factors into consideration.

What word besides "dedicated" would be right then? Dedication, in this context, involves devoting time into something, often treated as a priority, in order to be sure something (or task) is either done or kept up to standard. How is that not the right word for something like this? I mean, I guess you could always refer to those people with derogatory terms, if that's what you're trying to imply. Still doesn't change the dedication these people have to the task they set for themselves.

No one dedicates themselves to playing the minigames because there's no real reason to. Why should there be? It's just something side to do... what are you trying to argue here? LOL

First off it is an mmo, they want you to have to take more then 1 month on this content so you will not have the game cleared in less then a month keeping you subbed for longer. Secondly if you want something handed to you on a silver platter please leave this game and go back to World of Warcraft where they hold your hand for the entire experience with crap in a box expansions.

12m MGP not to spend it on i got all reward from godl saucer i would like a 10, or 15m MGP mount. Like THe ragnarok 8 player mount for 10m or 15m

This is a seven-year-old thread. The people you're boasting to are long gone.