Once you start giving out the Carbontwines

Certain pieces of Demon gear if upgradable to ilvl 130 could easily outdo some of the FCOB gear, but so can Poetic and penta-meld pieces. I see no issue with some additional gear choices, but I do think they should be kept sparse... That being said, an optimal i130 Ninja pants/chest would simply take 2 weeks' of tomes and a WoD carbontwine each to acquire, so for classes with better secondary stat choices on tome gear, a BiS chest is only two weeks' of tomes already. Given that, the most I can really argue for in order to increase the variety of top-end gear choices would be to require some tome expenditure for the WoD i130s. /shrug

I can understand why people would want FCoB gear to be the only true BiS, but as it is, fully melded crafted gear will often weigh equally FCoB gear in many slots, and tome gear will often outweigh it. (For further example, a WoD bard chest will outweigh the FCoB bard chest even at i120.) As it stands, there is no guarantee that gear requiring some manner of 'accomplishment' will be any better than ones that do not. One additional gear set option will not change a paradigm that does not actually exist.

I've never heard anyone in my life say that quote, but you can continue to view raiders as you like. The stigma is there regardless of what I do. Let me tell you what should actually happen to someone who just cleared Titan HM for the first time though. That individual gets loot drops they can roll on, no? Well there ya go. They just EARNED something that is not the best iLvl but iLvl APPROPRIATE to what they just accomplished. If I earned the gear at that level, there is no shame in wearing it. If I RECIEVED not earned iLvl 130 gear (best in the game depending on respective gear sets) for stalking LS notifications for hunts (literally no effort required only thing mandatory for this is that you log in and manage to tele before the fast-pullers), I personally feel that I am now a phony.

Essentially what I am saying to you is - If you feel shame wearing lower level gear that you earned playing lower skill material, then that is a personal issue. The name for that feeling is Envy. Some say it is one of the 7 deadly sins. You personal feelings should not impact the game world. If anyone is that upset they can't get higher level gear because it is reserved for the harder content, then any reasonable (IMO) person would figure out a way to earn it the proper way in whatever amount of time they have.

Clearly the solution is to remove the upgrade system. Going with the current example...we would have coil gear be i130, 24man gear be i120, tome gear be i120 at its max and not upgradable. What it'll do:

-max i150 ilvl will not be bis
-non crafted bis will be middling at i145ish
-'bis' for non coil goers is max i140 and they wont have to deal with hunts
-tome gear will be dyeable from the get go
-argument between raiders and non raiders on who 'deserves' what ilevel is eliminated

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

As it stands, there is no guarantee that gear requiring some manner of 'accomplishment' will be any better than ones that do not. One additional gear set option will not change a paradigm that does not actually exist.

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You are 100% right in respect to FFXIV. This debate has been around years longer than FFXIV has been though. Others and I referenced WoW earlier. This topic will be around for as long as the casuals (yes, I use this slur) feel they are entitled to what they did not work for. Entitlement is all this argument comes down to in the end. Entitlement and Envy.

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Originally Posted by Sorrik

You are 100% right in respect to FFXIV. This debate has been around years longer than FFXIV has been though. Others and I referenced WoW earlier. This topic will be around for as long as the casuals (yes, I use this slur) feel they are entitled to what they did not work for. Entitlement is all this argument comes down to in the end. Entitlement and Envy.

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Mm. I by no means would dislike the idea of Dreadwyrm gear ending up 135 (not just weapons but armor as well) somehow, but more than that I just want more than half of the pieces to be itemized or itemize-able more appropriately.
Altogether, I'd like more gearing control and a bit more ease of optimization - preferably without easing the requirements to reach top ilvls. Tome gear, or 'entry' / 'auxiliery' gear, should have its place in approaching 'reward' / 'raid' gear beyond simply being eventual BiS choices for whose slots you just hope not to loot Dreadwyrm pieces, grabbing instead those that will compliment it in some BiS set that you might never finish, due to simple RNG, before the gear has been out-patched. But this would probably take more than a little redesign, almost akin to a very, very minor version of relic improvements, using a resource gained automatically and perhaps itemlessly from raiding/high-end usage...
For now all I can say here is that when both tome and dropped gear have absolute shit secondaries, I can't help but wish there was a viable third choice. Although I have yet to clear this patch's endgame, my wanting i125-i130 WoD pieces doesn't come from wanting a high item level more easily, but simply a better BiS ceiling for those jobs where both sets are kinda trash.

:: Anything to reduce the need (for those statics who haven't been farming FCoB since week 4 or earlier) to hunt I strongly support as well... But that part is out of laziness.

Hmm, entitlement. Seems to go both ways.

Elite raiders are entitled to be the ONLY ones that can have the best gear through beating "hard" content.
Casual non raiders are entitled to equivalent gear through different avenues, less "hard" content.

It's like a he said, she said. Get over it. If you have the gear great, if not get it or something equivalent.

SE, remove content from the game that doesn't invalidate the time and effort put froth by either of these groups to earn gear.
This is what we all want right? Or we prefer to bicker endlessly over the same sh*t over and over again, regardless of venue?

It would be nice to have some ilvl 130 World of Darkness pieces, for the cases where the Poetics & Dreadwyrm alternatives aren't so great....

Now that regular Carbontwines and coats aren't so special, maybe each turn of Final Coil could start dropping Carbontwine of Darkness! :eek:

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Originally Posted by Utsu

You don't even know what you're talking about.

Do you really think we're slacking the rest of the week after cleaning FCoB ? The top CLs are doing hardcore optimisation for their jobs and rosters, speedkills, solohealing, etc.

The i130 is/should be an achievement AND a tool for raiders, better call us elitists if you want, I just don't know why a lot of ppl want top ilvl gear without any useful way to use it.

Now, can you answer, why do you need i130 gear as non-raider ? i120 is enough for what you're doing, it will be enough for the 3.0 too.

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Well perhaps if the 'raiders' stopped thinking of themselves as so special for a minute and realized there are others playing the game, we wouldnt have such a toxic community.

SE could always solve the issue with a ilvl cap on all content to the top tome purchasable gear ilvl (IE 120 atm) so that their precious raid gear was only full strength in raid? you know the whole 4 fights per 6 month period.
Aww, dont like that, well if you dont need 130 in other content, then why you about to complain?

Just because you play team jump rope for your one chance for a coffer doesnt make you better then anyone. sorry, welcome to planet 'your not special'

I will never understand why people care so much what gear other people are wearing. Seriously. Does someone wearing i130 devalue your accomplishments in final coil? No. If it does, you're raiding for the wrong reasons.

This whole argument about optimization vs fun is stupid, because it doesn't matter what you think. It matters what SE thinks. And they've already given casual players i130 through hunts. And they'll continue this motif because this is one of the most casual MMOs on the market.

Yes, i130 gear is great for theorycrafting and optimizing your build, but that is not the only purpose it serves. It is the purpose *you* attribute to it. Someone else might want i130 so they can finally solo heal Titan EX, help FC members through T9 with more room for error, etc.

Should WoD be upgraded to i130?

I don't care. And neither should you, really.

The point of doing challenging content like Coil is supposed to be for the feeling of accomplishment you get with a group of friends. Not to lord pixels over other people.

And you are seriously kidding yourself if you think, in terms of gear, at this point, people are doing coil for i130. They're doing it for the blue and gold.

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Originally Posted by Deviant1

SE could always solve the issue with a ilvl cap on all content to the top tome purchasable gear ilvl (IE 120 atm) so that their precious raid gear was only full strength in raid? you know the whole 4 fights per 6 month period.
Aww, dont like that, well if you dont need 130 in other content, then why you about to complain?

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You...realize that you're shooting your own foot right? Or at least your fellow non coil goers? Current highest relevant content other than coil are the primals and wod. Raiders with coil gear will have zero problems trouncing any of these with capped i120, people who don't raid might not be able to. I don't know what is it you're trying to prove here, other than your blatant hatred for raiders apparently clouding your judgement.

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Originally Posted by KarmaCha

Should WoD be upgraded to i130?

I don't care. And neither should you, really.

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I'm not gonna argue hard for what I think on this but creating i130s for wod does create more bloat on the overall item list and if it does get added, people would expect them to be dye-able. Now I don't know if they make things inherently dye-able when they make gear models before deciding they are dye-able or not in the game but it it's not, it's extra work, minuscule or not. There WERE graphical bugs on items that weren't even messed with when we jumped versions several patches back so it's additional risk regardless (there's 30+ of them too, discounting the belt).

But seriously, people asking for this are asking for the wrong things imo. The issue is the terrible stats on the best gear in the first place. People should be up in arms about that (harder). Better yet, each class has 4+ secondary stats related to them and only one is put on the pedestal, one is treated a necessary baggage, the rest is tolerated and generally the last one is treated like some kind of red headed step child. People should be campaigning for reworking of the system. The pipes are leaking and people are screaming for a bigger duct tape...

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Originally Posted by Deviant1

Well perhaps if the 'raiders' stopped thinking of themselves as so special for a minute and realized there are others playing the game, we wouldnt have such a toxic community.

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Perhaps if the non-raiders stopped thinking of themselves as so special for a minute and realized there are others playing this game, we wouldn't have such a toxic community.

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Originally Posted by Nel_Celestine

"look what I have that you don't. worship me and kiss my feet you filthy losers."

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I haven't seen a single person in this thread say something that acted this way. You're putting words in peoples mouths making assumptions about them while willfully ignoring the actual words coming out of their mouths. This is prejudice in action and it's worse than the elite raiders people like you despite.

How the hell did this turn into a 14 page long argument?
some one came up an idea that would benefit the entire player base, upgrading current gear.
how is this detrimental to anybodies playing experience?

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Originally Posted by Yukariko

How the hell did this turn into a 14 page long argument?
some one came up an idea that would benefit the entire player base, upgrading current gear.
how is this detrimental to anybodies playing experience?

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Because people get in a mood when someone else can get something similar to what they had, but much easier...hence why we all call them elitists as they think people should do what they had to do in order to gain better gear, instead of waiting and doing the easy way.

I bet 90% of so called raiders have done hunts non stop to get mark logs since they came out. Instead of doing the raids.

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Originally Posted by ScarletDawn

I bet 90% of so called raiders have done hunts non stop to get mark logs since they came out. Instead of doing the raids.

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I swear, someone can make a show called "Non raiders says the darndest things" with quotes like these and they can win awards for best comedy every year.

*doesn't read 14 pages*

I honestly don't see the problem of this if the carbon stuff (or at least the twine) was exclusively available in coil. Nothing ingame is stated specifically that the carbonstuff is made specifically for ironworks gear (it's used to enhance gems/jewelery or "almost anything")...just the fact that its allagan ingeunity and beyond human reckoning.

Gear already has different stat budgeting, and in the case for bard and summoner, both dreadwyrm and ironworks are saturated with skill speed and seems pretty nonsensical to have to use a lower ilvl item, outside of enhancing it further (materia) or accuracy cap to stat optimal. If carbontwine (and by extension, ilvl130gear) was still exclusive to coil, then why not? The problem is...it's not *stares at hunts*.

Another thing is that it's fine as catch up content too, but we're still within the same content cycle and expansion is still some ways off.

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Originally Posted by ScarletDawn

Because people get in a mood when someone else can get something similar to what they had, but much easier...hence why we all call them elitists as they think people should do what they had to do in order to gain better gear, instead of waiting and doing the easy way.

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yeah and it really saddens me that that so many seem to think that way.

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I bet 90% of so called raiders have done hunts non stop to get mark logs since they came out. Instead of doing the raids.

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very very true. Any arguments about haves and have nots in this game should all be completely derailed by the fact that upgrade items are available un capped via mindless hunting.

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Originally Posted by Gardes

I swear, someone can make a show called "Non raiders says the darndest things" with quotes like these and they can win awards for best comedy every year.

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What makes you think i don't raid? Im still doing ScoB so getting past T-9 for me is a goal. Would having ilvl 130 gear help, sure...do i need it? Nope.

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Originally Posted by Gardes

...Better yet, each class has 4+ secondary stats related to them and only one is put on the pedestal, one is treated a necessary baggage, the rest is tolerated and generally the last one is treated like some kind of red headed step child. People should be campaigning for reworking of the system. The pipes are leaking and people are screaming for a bigger duct tape...

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Make skill/spell speed actually worth the value it's taking. It doesn't speed up dot ticks, it doesn't speed up TP regen or even increase auto attack speed. The only thing I can see it doing is increasing TP use (which while increases dps, also puts a lower celling to how long it can be sustained), and throwing off the ideal mudra GCD.

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Originally Posted by ScarletDawn

Because people get in a mood when someone else can get something similar to what they had, but much easier...hence why we all call them elitists as they think people should do what they had to do in order to gain better gear, instead of waiting and doing the easy way.

I bet 90% of so called raiders have done hunts non stop to get mark logs since they came out. Instead of doing the raids.

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Having read this whole thread, it seems like non-raiders get "in a mood" because they feel entitled to get everything in this game, even if they don't do the content that gives the things they want. Then they are called out on it, hence them calling raiders "elitist".

You all have this weird notion of every raider being some weird elitist monster that is out to hunt you down. Guess what? Raiders are just normal humans playing this game for fun.

This has nothing to do with being an elitist: max item level gear is literally the ONLY in-game reward for doing the most difficult content in the game and it is of actual use only to raiders anyway (WoD is the hardest content that most people who farm WoD gear will ever do, as ridiculous as it sounds).

It's gear that will eventually become much easier to obtain with new patches and item levels, so stop asking SE to give you free Coil weapons/gear as soon as they come out and understand that you can't just buy everything with money or time.

I would be down for another set of iLv130 gear, if the wall to get it was just as high as FcoB to get it. Especially since a lot of WoD gear's secondary stats are really freaking good. If they were iLv130 then people would be roughly 60% WoD gear, 20% Poetics, 20% Dread. It wouldn't make sense.

This is a little off topic guys so dont hate me. How about we stop upgrading our gear. I liked the Myth days were the gear you paid for (not nerf'ed with SS and SK) was DONE and didn't need upgrading. Lets say the Tome gear starts out at 130 and can't be upgraded. The coil gear starts out at 130 but can be upgraded to give the needed stat(s) boost to clear move floors in coil. In the end we'd have 130 and 135. If the raiders want to upgraded their gear they could clear coils move often or do hunts. I've never liked the idea of upgrading gear sets. It feels like you're being cheated. When I buy a set of gear, I want it done. I will not upgrade my Pol gear. I have over 1800 in seals right now. The bard and smn gear suck. None of its worth upgrading. I've cleared all the stuff in the game but FCOB (I have no plans to enter anymore coils) At item level 118, I'am done untill the new expansion hits. The WOD gear would be nice to upgrade but I'm not going to cry about.

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Originally Posted by Synestr

Hmm, entitlement. Seems to go both ways.

Elite raiders are entitled to be the ONLY ones that can have the best gear through beating "hard" content.
Casual non raiders are entitled to equivalent gear through different avenues, less "hard" content.

It's like a he said, she said. Get over it. If you have the gear great, if not get it or something equivalent.

SE, remove content from the game that doesn't invalidate the time and effort put froth by either of these groups to earn gear.
This is what we all want right? Or we prefer to bicker endlessly over the same sh*t over and over again, regardless of venue?

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I don't think you know what the word I used 'entitlement' actually means in all its forms. This is not me name-calling btw. This is me helping you understand; Entitlement (like many English words) 1)- Has multiple definitions and 2)- can be justifiable AND non-justifiable.

Justifiable entitlement's definition goes something (I'm no dictionary, I literally just put the word into Google and it popped up things that supported what I was trying to say anyways) like this; "The fact of having a right to something" or "The amount to which a person has a right" an example is: "I just finished 7 to 8 grueling years of college, law school, and passed The Bar. I AM entitled to being a lawyer."

Non-justifiable entitlement's definition is something like this; "The belief that one is inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment" an example is: "How come I can't get hired as a lawyer?" For this argument assume the person did not complete the required amount of college.

Do you see the difference? Every time this discussion comes up, my eyeballs feel the stab of the casuals asking how come they can't be a lawyer even if they didn't go to law school. The 'law school' in the metaphor I used is NOT, IS NOT the subscription fee a person pays. Everyone playing this game has to do that so no one is special because of it. Not everyone will put in the work to complete Coil ipso facto people who complete Coil ARE ACTUALLY special. The literal definition of the word special, extraordinary, unique, etc. You are not special if you did hunts or WoD because it is a generally accepted view by FFXIV's community that any layman can accomplish so small a feat.

Don't cherry-pick words out of my paragraph either ... I see all you eyeballing the words, "so small a feat." LOL.

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Originally Posted by Sorrik

so small a feat.

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Hunt mobs don't even qualify as a small feat unless you face them in a single party (A) or alliance (S).

Something that melts in under a minute can pretty much be described as a speed bump. xD

So if they make carbon twine available to the masses (or giving casuals 130 left side already), I can only see this as a benefit. Some of the WoD gear specifically fits a gearing gap where there are no great alternatives (in ironworks or dreadwyrm). All this does is give the full community (raiders included) more options for getting the most out of their job.

Those clearing final coil still be the only people with BiS since most if not all BiS would require something from final coil.

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Originally Posted by Ossom

I would be down for another set of iLv130 gear, if the wall to get it was just as high as FcoB to get it. Especially since a lot of WoD gear's secondary stats are really freaking good. If they were iLv130 then people would be roughly 60% WoD gear, 20% Poetics, 20% Dread. It wouldn't make sense.

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This is it, right here. You want the best gear without doing FCoB? Then do other, equally difficult stuff for equally good rewards. Besides, it wouldn't hurt to have some variety in end-game gear. It would allow for more variation in playstyles.

It'd be a nice idea for future tiers, but it's way too late in this iteration of the game to make WOD gear upgrade able. I'd rather they just note the desire for more choice in gear/stats at the top and focus on the expansion.

I would say that if you want gear comparable to endgame loot, do content with difficulty comparable to endgame content. I would rather have people encouraged to do higher end content than 2nd tier raids for top level gear. 1st place gets gold, 2nd gets silver, 3rd gets bronze. Same concept.

So I wouldn't mind if there was more options at the top, as long as the method to get them was equally as trying.

I don't get why non raiders even care to have i130 gear since even coil doesn't require that much of an ilvl. I can understand maybe wanting to dye their gear.. but other then that.. why? I've had FCoB on farm for 10+ weeks and wouldn't even do it if not for a above average gear reward. I think the story is terrible so I'd have no reason to do it otherwise since it's not that hard.

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Originally Posted by Mutemutt

I would say that if you want gear comparable to endgame loot, do content with difficulty comparable to endgame content. I would rather have people encouraged to do higher end content than 2nd tier raids for top level gear. 1st place gets gold, 2nd gets silver, 3rd gets bronze. Same concept.

So I wouldn't mind if there was more options at the top, as long as the method to get them was equally as trying.

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I don't necessarily disagree with you. I don't mind being Having a pre end game content ilvl and the most recent end game content then having the next ilvl improvement gained from doing that content. I feel it works out well that way as if I'm not doing FCOB why do I need 130 gear right now (which is why I won't farm hunts since I don't enjoy them).

But that isn't the current model. Which is raiders have access to it for a few months exclusively then it is available to the masses. If that is to continue, then I don't see an issue with making WoD or other relevant loot piñata upgrade able at the same time the next teir of ilvl is available to all. If they keep the existing system, then it is a great suggestion. If they change it then I'd ask for multiple alternatives at all tiers for more options for all. Right now there are BiS pieces that aren't ilvl 130 and that kinda feels wrong and I think the suggestion is to fix that in the context of the existing system. I see it as a short term suggestion that might not be hard to implement but does not directly counter your perspective.

Kinda like if you are already giving i130 to everyone already, why not increase hearing options as well. Not really addressing whether or not everyone should have an i130 option in the first place. That's just how I interpreted it. I also don't get upset when I see someone walking around with an i135 weapon that I don't have an option for... you know because it is just content I haven't done yet.

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Originally Posted by Kazumac

*Snip*

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You're right, I don't really have a problem with there being more gearing options so much as how one gets that gear. And yes, the current model doesn't match my preferences perfectly, I've accepted that. I guess you could say that my aversion to the idea is mostly because it builds on a system I don't really like very much. To be honest, I've got bigger problems with hunts being the avenue for top tier gear than I do with being able to upgrade gear.

So the idea gets a "I wouldn't throw a tantrum if it did happen, but would prefer a different option" from me.

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Originally Posted by Noahlimits

I don't get why non raiders even care to have i130 gear since even coil doesn't require that much of an ilvl. I can understand maybe wanting to dye their gear.. but other then that.. why? I've had FCoB on farm for 10+ weeks and wouldn't even do it if not for a above average gear reward. I think the story is terrible so I'd have no reason to do it otherwise since it's not that hard.

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For the same reason raiders want 130 gear, it's not mandatory to complete final coil either, but you still want it.

No thank you lol. If players wan't great gear, they should have to work for it. Yes, Poetics isn't hard but originally you had to upgrade through Coil before hunts abolished that.

120 is fine. The weekly lockout is not.

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

For the same reason raiders want 130 gear, it's not mandatory to complete final coil either, but you still want it.

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Because want that fat ilevel. If they cared about stats, their current gear would be a mix of poetics, WoD, and FCoB gear. I personally care more for stats than ilevel but to a PF, seeing someone advertise that they are i130 looks better than me saying that I'm 120. Most of the time, they'll want that person instead even though I may be far above their skill level.

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Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio

Because want that fat ilevel. If they cared about stats, their current gear would be a mix of poetics, WoD, and FCoB gear. I personally care more for stats than ilevel but to a PF, seeing someone advertise that they are i130 looks better than me saying that I'm 120. Most of the time, they'll want that person instead even though I may be far above their skill level.

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Yeah, but think of it this way. Assume all people are bad until proven otherwise, would you want a bad 120 or a bad 130?

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

Yeah, but think of it this way. Assume all people are bad until proven otherwise, would you want a bad 120 or a bad 130?

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Then it wouldn't matter which one you got since i130 and i120 look the same when dead on the floor. xD