Raid runs and gear drops

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

Go level archer or mage so that you can do it on easy mode.

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That's like saying that players should fix the problem themselves (by leveling "privilaged" classes) instead of the company that is taking money from us (which they should do by balancing either raid or classes).

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Originally Posted by Haji

That's like saying that players should fix the problem themselves (by leveling "privilaged" classes) instead of the company that is taking money from us (which they should do by balancing either raid or classes).

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No, you have 2 choices:

Do the work and level one of three classes.

or

Do the work and complete the dungeon with mele.


HOWEVER.

It seems people would rather take the elusive 3rd option:

Complain till SE makes it so easy 6 year olds can do it naked, blindfolded and on all jobs because "we are too lazy to make a group ourselves and take the time to learn how to do tough fights"


I am embarrassed to even play this game sometimes. The community is that of a bunch of children wanting to be hand held the whole time.

Heaven forbid there is ONE tough thing to do in this game eh?

Edit: and by TOUGH I mean doing it on melee. Because lord knows you cant be bothered to level another class to 50.

Well, my understanding of the problem (as presented here on this topic by some people) is that going with ARC CON GLA setup is much, much easier than melee setup. If that true, then this points to imbalance of either the raid or classes (and yes, I know that job system is coming, and hopefully it'll help). If such an unbalance really exist, then it's really not a matter of people's laziness, but the problem with game's design.

They should raise the time limit. That would allow people to not be so strict in the paRty formation. Also 60 mins is kinDa a joke anyways.

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Edit: and by TOUGH I mean doing it on melee. Because lord knows you cant be bothered to level another class to 50.

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With no fatigue

But to the people complaining about the arch/mage set up... Think about it, which game have you ever played that didn't have a "best" set up? Every single MMO I've played has always had your "cookie cutter".... Doesn't mean you can't do it with another set up thou... I don't understand the train of thought of some people.

All I'm saying is.....

if other ppl can do it with melees why cant you?!!?!?

I fail to understand this.. how come some can do it and some cant?

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Originally Posted by Thanos

All I'm saying is.....

if other ppl can do it with melees why cant you?!!?!?

I fail to understand this.. how come some can do it and some cant?

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They want to do it the easiest way possible, and are bitter they didn't level the classes that can do this content the easiest.

aka: Lazyness.

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Originally Posted by Plague

But to the people complaining about the arch/mage set up... Think about it, which game have you ever played that didn't have a "best" set up? Every single MMO I've played has always had your "cookie cutter".... Doesn't mean you can't do it with another set up thou... I don't understand the train of thought of some people.

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Thank you for some logic. I like you too.

We need a logic club.

I'll be the president.

Who wants in?

Or learn from experience..

Always level range, tank and mages first LOL

Thats what i did

i think this is the worst complaint ever, if the only tactic you can think off isn't a workable solution for your group, the alterntive shouldn't be to complain to SE.

The same issue was present in XI too, ppl beleived the only tank that would ever work was NIN, completly forgetting about DNC THF MNK and in some cases even RDM.

I've seen almost the exact same posts on the XI forums from ppl that beleive only 1 tactic works cos their too dumb to work out another tactic for them selfs.

i mean does noone beleive in trial and error anymore? really? you already got your way with crafting now you're starting on dungon raids too.

A note to SE: Please can you make all dungons soloable by any class, i don't have time to wait for my party to gather or work on my sub abilitys, i just want the best gears possable and i want it yesterday!

The way i see it is most close-ranged melees that currently plays this game doesn't know how to self-sustain themselves, or they don't know how to moves away from skills or even negate the skill together with the right ability. Most are borned from the mindless grind called guildleves, it is not anyone's fault that community are scepticals towards these players.

Of course there are exception, there a close-ranged melees that knows how to use featherfoot/decoy, they knows how to trigger ogre's rearjump everytime so they can just move to the sides when it readies the moves, people forget that this isn't FFXI where most of the content is tank and spank.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

The way i see it is most close-ranged melees that currently plays this game doesn't know how to self-sustain themselves, or they don't know how to moves away from skills or even negate the skill together with the right ability.

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I see this with Batraal fights all the time. DD fighting the adds should not need a mage to heal them. And yet again and again, I see DD dying on skellies.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

The way i see it is most close-ranged melees that currently plays this game doesn't know how to self-sustain themselves, or they don't know how to moves away from skills or even negate the skill together with the right ability. Most are borned from the mindless grind called guildleves, it is not anyone's fault that community are scepticals towards these players.

Of course there are exception, there a close-ranged melees that knows how to use featherfoot/decoy, they knows how to trigger ogre's rearjump everytime so they can just move to the sides when it readies the moves, people forget that this isn't FFXI where most of the content is tank and spank.

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Right for the most part. Like I said in a previous post, if you make yourself viable and know what you are doing, despite which class, you should be invited. Problem I have is, the majority of end game thinks exactly like FFXI and believes this setup is the only way to go. People don't want to find another way to make it work for everyone.

As I said, SE needs to give people a stronger incentive for a diverse party. Ultimately it lies upon us how we decide to go about with it. There are plenty of methods to do this, and SE isn't using one of them.

I think what everyone is missing is that currently everyone is running these instances with CLASSES and not JOBS.

You are making due with CLASSES that were not intended to party based play, so of course party make up is going to end up on the extremes. (Extreme tank + Extreme Un-tank+ Nothing in the middle)

As JOBS are supposed to equip CLASSES with more party oriented abilities, I am sure that once JOBS are issued this will be somewhat of a dead discussion.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Problem I have is, the majority of end game thinks exactly like FFXI and believes this setup is the only way to go. People don't want to find another way to make it work for everyone.

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what are you basing this on? videos you've seen?

as other people have said...make a party of whatever you want and work with it. or rank a more useful class.

people have done it with some melee...if you can't, then the problem is obviously on your end and not everyone else's.

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Originally Posted by Cursive

as other people have said...*** make a party of whatever you want and work with it. or rank a more useful class.

people have done it with some melee...if you can't, then the problem is obviously on your end and not everyone else's.

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Shame i can only it the "Like" button once.

Like +100. {You can have this}

While I cant say I dont sympathize with the OP... I think SE hit the perfect balance with the speed run rewards.

Only 2 of the drops pop from the chests...and while they may be the most desirable pops (templar falchion ftw, sword w+ def!) they represent an equal reward for the challenge. All the other drops can be earned by any mix of members, as long as you have tank and healers. (BTW, all our mages are Archer mains)

There are a lot of players that have been leveling different jobs for months waiting for a challenge like this (probably more than new players w/ only 1 job) and they deserve to have their efforts rewarded. As for the others, keep at it and break convention or start leveling other jobs I guess...Or you could head back in after they raise the cap and blow it out in 15 minutes.

Dont change the system SE, keep testing our skill and creativity!

How come we didn't have these types of QQers back in XI? Or did we, they just didn't have an official ZAM-like forums to go to? Is this the doing of WoW? Made everyone like Rogue into 6 year old whining twatwaffles?

They can make dungeons with heroic modes too, that way you can have an easy mode dungeon without good drops as training ground, or different bosses, and an heroic mode were you need to be really good player to finish it, that way they wont dumb down the dungeons and everyone will be happy.

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Originally Posted by Cursive

what are you basing this on? videos you've seen?

as other people have said...fucking make a party of whatever you want and work with it. or rank a more useful class.

people have done it with some melee...if you can't, then the problem is obviously on your end and not everyone else's.

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You haven't been reading the posts carefully. I didn't say a melee setup can't be done, I said people rather hit the easy button then try to include various classes. SE making stronger incentives for diverse parties is the best way to go. Is it inevitable that people find ways around anything? Yes. Not doing anything about it though is eventually going to go back to the way FFXI was.

I feel like this debate is going in various directions. x_x

People made a good point that if you can't perform a speed run with your setup, it is your fault. There is no argument against that. If you don't want to take a challenge, then level mage or archer and just burn it down. I just simply don't want end game LS's believing it is "this way or the highway". It happened in FFXI, and don't want it to repeat itself in FFXIV. You can say other MMO's do this, but for most of them, all classes are welcomed at least and based more on gear/skill. Back then, in high end LS's, it was hard to get your Puppetmaster into an HNM fight, since most of them didn't want them in there, no matter how well geared you were.

But who knows what will happen in 1.19 and 1.20. It could make everything I said completely invalid

Everyone here has actually brought in pretty good points against the matter, so it mostly boils down to throwing the same statement at each other over and over.

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Originally Posted by elreed

They can make dungeons with heroic modes too, that way you can have an easy mode dungeon without good drops as training ground, or different bosses, and an heroic mode were you need to be really good player to finish it, that way they wont dumb down the dungeons and everyone will be happy.

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This is acctually a really good idea. but i do see small flaw, ppl will make the same complaint about the heroic dungons as the complaint here. "I have to actually work to get good gear and i don't wanna, it's too hard"

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Originally Posted by elreed

They can make dungeons with heroic modes too, that way you can have an easy mode dungeon without good drops as training ground, or different bosses, and an heroic mode were you need to be really good player to finish it, that way they wont dumb down the dungeons and everyone will be happy.

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They are kind of doing that with the Ifrit Battle. There is going to be a lv.30 mode and a lv.50 mode. I think this is a neat setup. Maybe in the future we will get a harder version of lv.50 content.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

They are kind of doing that with the Ifrit Battle. There is going to be a lv.30 mode and a lv.50 mode. I think this is a neat setup. Maybe in the future we will get a harder version of lv.50 content.

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I hope R30 and R50 drops different gear. Would be stupid to drop the exact same thing.

I can't see them dropping the same thing...No way lol.

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Originally Posted by Plague

I can't see them dropping the same thing...No way lol.

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Well you never know... it would satisfy the noobs.

You know the ones that dont wanna put in the effort at the same degree the hardcore players do but they still want the same rewards

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Originally Posted by Velhart

You haven't been reading the posts carefully. I didn't say a melee setup can't be done, I said people rather hit the easy button then try to include various classes. SE making stronger incentives for diverse parties is the best way to go. Is it inevitable that people find ways around anything? Yes. Not doing anything about it though is eventually going to go back to the way FFXI was.

I feel like this debate is going in various directions. x_x

People made a good point that if you can't perform a speed run with your setup, it is your fault. There is no argument against that. If you don't want to take a challenge, then level mage or archer and just burn it down. I just simply don't want end game LS's believing it is "this way or the highway". It happened in FFXI, and don't want it to repeat itself in FFXIV. You can say other MMO's do this, but for most of them, all classes are welcomed at least and based more on gear/skill. Back then, in high end LS's, it was hard to get your Puppetmaster into an HNM fight, since most of them didn't want them in there, no matter how well geared you were.

But who knows what will happen in 1.19 and 1.20. It could make everything I said completely invalid

Everyone here has actually brought in pretty good points against the matter, so it mostly boils down to throwing the same statement at each other over and over.

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the comment arc and mage only is easy mode is ridiculous. have you even completed a speed run? let alone a five chest speed run? watching videos and calling it easy mode is ignorant. of course the video makes it look easy...it is based on however many hours of trial and error.


end game shells usually require certain set-ups because they are goal oriented....they do things for a very specific purpose and in the most efficient way...path of least resistance. that will never change, no matter what se does. so please stop crying about it and do either of the things people have suggested...figure out how to make melee more useful or rank arc or a mage.

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Originally Posted by Cursive

the comment arc and mage only is easy mode is ridiculous. have you even completed a speed run? let alone a five chest speed run? watching videos and calling it easy mode is ignorant. of course the video makes it look easy...it is based on however many hours of trial and error.


end game shells usually require certain set-ups because they are goal oriented....they do things for a very specific purpose and in the most efficient way...path of least resistance. that will never change, no matter what se does. so please stop crying about it and do either of the things people have suggested...figure out how to make melee more useful or rank arc or a mage.

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You can put "Easy" mode in a game, but it doesn't mean it is easy for you in particular. Maybe I should give you a better word to work with, "Easier", or maybe "More convenient".

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Originally Posted by Velhart

You can put "Easy" mode in a game, but it doesn't mean it is easy for you in particular. Maybe I should give you a better word to work with, "Easier", or maybe "More convenient".

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easy does not mean convenient (not to mention the fact that the dungeon is retardedly easy). please go try a five chest speed run with mar, 4 arc, 2 con, 1 thm or any combination of arc and mages.

lol @ the guy saying get HQ gear.

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Originally Posted by Cursive

end game shells usually require certain set-ups because they are goal oriented....they do things for a very specific purpose and in the most efficient way...path of least resistance. that will never change, no matter what se does.

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This is just the newest example of people that try to rationalize what is going on by saying that players will always shunt some classes aside and promote others. Well, I just spent some time making sure about certain observation of mine, and what (little unfortunately) I fund is that in WoW for all instances and purposes there are no classes considered "usless" or "inconvinient". Certain builds are ignored, yes, but classes? No. That means that yes, you can make a game where every class can contribute more or less equally.

And before the standarad "WoW is played by nabs" argument comes out, I was specifically looking for how the most hardcore (usually getting "first on the sever kill" achivments) guilds are doing things.

I find this whole complaint of having to use archers silly, as the 5th chest only drops bow and sword; thus making it only useful to ARC and GLA. :D

P.S. The Verdant Short bow only has 1 more attack and 17 more accuracy than a NQ Crab bow, also has shorter delay which only affects ARC AA punches HaHa. ;O You're much better off getting a HQ2 or 3 Crab bow.

Didnt SE say they were changing the way this instance was going to be run in an up coming patch?

I have to assume it means the whole running method, and a return to a kill and grind fast type format.

I hope so. And there is also job system incoming. With luck, those issuses will be adressed with those 2 changes.

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Originally Posted by Grim_Lion

Didnt SE say they were changing the way this instance was going to be run in an up coming patch?

I have to assume it means the whole running method, and a return to a kill and grind fast type format.

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They said they were gonna change battle algorithms, and therefore have to disable the battle regime system. It's gonna make speed runs harder to accomplish w/o BR, though the changed battle algorithms may make up for it.

Speed runs without BR are already easy-enough (not saying speed runs ARE easy though), just very capable to do them without them.

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Originally Posted by Cursive

easy does not mean convenient (not to mention the fact that the dungeon is retardedly easy). please go try a five chest speed run with mar, 4 arc, 2 con, 1 thm or any combination of arc and mages.

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Actually yea, it kind of does mean that. Haha

Been through it many times, I am 100% aware how difficult a speed run is, and still stand by what I said.

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Originally Posted by Keftenk

Speed runs without BR are already easy-enough (not saying speed runs ARE easy though), just very capable to do them without them.

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Hey, by chance were you the same Keftenk that played FFXI on the Fairy server?

Yup
/10 char

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Originally Posted by Keftenk

Yup
/10 char

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Ah, good to see you're doing well. I played alongside ya for a year or two back around 2006.