Isn`t just vanity. Is 2 diferent experiences and thats why is bad.

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Originally Posted by Riepah

Enlighten us, then. How do you "win" an MMORPG?

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You uninstall
inb4jokegoesoverfirsttimemmoplayersheads

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Originally Posted by KodiHivaer

Ummmm no, no they aren't.
Korean and Japanese versions Tera went F2P before Europe and America's version went F2P soon after.

Blade and Soul is P2P still with a CS, but because china's version is under a different publisher it's F2P.

Want proof before you say "You're wrong!" ?
My fiancee' writes for mmosite...

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Last time I remembered, Korea's TERA is F2P only until 60, which then you have to pay to play.

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Originally Posted by Fue

Might aswell put coil behind cash shop considering how many people have cleared it or even set foot in it.
Its clearly optional.

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Originally Posted by Rasylia

Exactly. Everything doable in the game is optional. Why not pay for openeing the Market? Its clearly optional, no?
Tbh im skipping the marriage system most probably. I dont want a half-ass variant, and i cant afford to pay 50 bucks for a ingame Event in a game im allready paying for.

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See? These are the logic bombs which makes it impossible to discuss anything with you guys. Because you go straight for the Slippery Slope Fallacy as your means of seeming like you are right.
You can say that about ANY game in general: All you are doing is buying the game for nothing then. Shooting enemies in Call of Duty is optional, you can just run past them, getting or switching to any other weapon pas the standard is optional, even aiming is optional, let that cost cash too...

You notice how ridiculous that sounds trying to prove a non-existent point? Coil IS optional content, but it's still storyline based content which Squenix deemed to be important which is why it's not behind a paywall or whatever other nonsense. But what is behind a paywall? The expansion...

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Originally Posted by Xhominid

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Mind to explain why f.e. the market isnt as optional as the marriage system?
You know, you can simply sell stuff to NPC's and gather stuff you need yourself. Everyone who wants the shortcut aka market should pay a few € so SE gets more money.
Its the same with the marriage, no? Either you go the normal route, meaning, you get 50% for "free" (dont forget we are allready paying..) or you pay extra to get 100%.

I wonder if more people will participate in weddings than in final coil? I really wouldn't be that surprised to be honest since only a handful of players do final coil at the moment. Not trying to make coil sound any less important but since people are debating over optional content..

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Originally Posted by Xhominid

See? These are the logic bombs which makes it impossible to discuss anything with you guys...

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Their point is that defining "winning" in an MMORPG is a completely arbitrary idea that has no foundation in the way the game is actually played. Coil is content, crafting is content, minion/mount-collecting is content, Eternal Bonding is content, glamour is content, the Gold Saucer is content. It's all content. What makes everyone feel that the one endgame raid in this game is the only content that can't be sold in the cash shop? Where do we draw the line between the nebulous term "winning" and "enjoyment"? If it's unacceptable to sell "winning" in the cash shop (i.e. advantages to the limited battle content), why do we allow "enjoyment" to be sold at an additional cost if we already bought game and pay a sub?

As I pointed in the other thread, this is a pointless discussion since no agreement will be made.

Fluff is game content vs fluff is not game content.
Fluff in cash shop is also pay to win vs fluff is CS is not p2w.
The definition on win varies with the player vs nah winning is only clearing raids/primals/stuff

It's like listening to an atheist and a theist argue. They'll never come to terms and both will end the discussion angy....

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Originally Posted by Rasylia

Mind to explain why f.e. the market isnt as optional as the marriage system?
You know, you can simply sell stuff to NPC's and gather stuff you need yourself. Everyone who wants the shortcut aka market should pay a few € so SE gets more money.
Its the same with the marriage, no? Either you go the normal route, meaning, you get 50% for "free" (dont forget we are allready paying..) or you pay extra to get 100%.

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Because the Market Board is the way that everyone gets items and sells things to others and the marriage system...is simply getting married, something most people can easily RP without no issue otherwise. Hell, there's a free version on top of that. Making the market boards payable from real money is extremely stupid, go ask Blizzard and Diablo 3...oh wait, they canned that stupid thing so why would that make sense?

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Originally Posted by Xhominid

...why would that make sense?

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Why would making people pay for marriage make sense?

The slippery slopes arent slippery slopes at all. You're just a bit narrow minded. Collecting is important to said person now behind a pay wall. No one cares. Coil to said person is of uninterest so they would rather put coil behind a pay wall instead of have there play style affected. But people don't like that because it affects them. So is it a slippery slope no it's wanting people to feel the same punishment that people are forcing upon them. Makes sense really.

Think of it as reflecting reality.

Some people don't care at all about the flair and get married extremely cheap.

Others invest thousands upon thousands of dollars for all the extravagance. Hell, some spend thousands on the cake alone.

So yeah, you can't have the fancy, expensive wedding if you can't pay for it, but you can still get married. Just like you can't have the Fat Chocobo if you don't buy the collector's edition. I don't recall seeing a hundred threads whining about that (I'm sure someone, somewhere did, but not at this level), and it's essentially the same thing.

The rich will get great weddings,
the poor will get poor weddings.

Thanks for bringing RL social inequality to my favorite sparetime activity.

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Originally Posted by Andevom

Think of it as reflecting reality.

Some people don't care at all about the flair and get married extremely cheap.

Others invest thousands upon thousands of dollars for all the extravagance. Hell, some spend thousands on the cake alone.

So yeah, you can't have the fancy, expensive wedding if you can't pay for it, but you can still get married. Just like you can't have the Fat Chocobo if you don't buy the collector's edition. I don't recall seeing a hundred threads whining about that (I'm sure someone, somewhere did, but not at this level), and it's essentially the same thing.

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Reflecting reality ? You can use a money that doesn't exist in the real world to have a better wedding that you can't get with real world money Oo?

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Originally Posted by Rasylia

Why would making people pay for marriage make sense?

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Then don't. You have a free version, use that one.

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Originally Posted by Mook_Mook

The slippery slopes arent slippery slopes at all. You're just a bit narrow minded. Collecting is important to said person now behind a pay wall. No one cares. Coil to said person is of uninterest so they would rather put coil behind a pay wall instead of have there play style affected. But people don't like that because it affects them. So is it a slippery slope no it's wanting people to feel the same punishment that people are forcing upon them. Makes sense really.

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I don't think you understand what that means and to be frank, I think you is just projecting. Collection has ALWAYS been behind a paywall, I just said it before with the buying Squenix merch to get minions and mounts and stop ignoring that factor, if people made that to be their "endgame goal", then they need to nut up and start buying stuff if they want to be a completionist.

The same goes for Coil, just because most of the playerbase doesn't play it doesn't suddenly mean it hits the same level considering that Coil actually has important storyline stuff in it thus making it a paywall is just plain ridiculous. I don't think you realize what is different from optional but actually story important content and optional content that is just plain there.

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Originally Posted by lololink

Reflecting reality ? You can use a money that doesn't exist in the real world to have a better wedding that you can't get with real world money Oo?

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Stop using that logic, it really doesn't make you any smarter in the least...

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Originally Posted by Phe

The rich will get great weddings,
the poor will get poor weddings.

Thanks for bringing RL social inequality to my favorite sparetime activity.

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+1 ! Couldnt have said it better.

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Originally Posted by Andevom

Think of it as reflecting reality.

Some people don't care at all about the flair and get married extremely cheap.

Others invest thousands upon thousands of dollars for all the extravagance. Hell, some spend thousands on the cake alone.

So yeah, you can't have the fancy, expensive wedding if you can't pay for it, but you can still get married. Just like you can't have the Fat Chocobo if you don't buy the collector's edition. I don't recall seeing a hundred threads whining about that (I'm sure someone, somewhere did, but not at this level), and it's essentially the same thing.

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True true... But doesn't that mean it should cost thousands upon thousands of gil? Well...i bet we would have the exact same number of whining-threads ;P

You're right buying a physical product with a code is the same as buying a digital minion. Oh wait it's not. So that's not really a good arguement but I know you want to stick to it. Here have been your arguments
Other mmo do it. Appeal to authority or group mentality .others do it must be right.
Se will reinvest and no proof either way. But if you look at ffxi they stated they used the funds to fund other games. So I'm dillusional ? You're arguements have been equally poor and with false claims. I say good day

I don't get why RP'ers are so buttmad about it. If anything, you should be happy. You're getting the chance to live out roleplaying at its best. The wedding is so real that you have to pay for it, with actual money! I've never heard of a free wedding, have you? ;)

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Originally Posted by Danima

True true... But doesn't that mean it should cost thousands upon thousands of gil? Well...i bet we would have the exact same number of whining-threads ;P

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We probably would!

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The rich will get great weddings,
the poor will get poor weddings.

Thanks for bringing RL social inequality to my favorite sparetime activity.

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Rich FCs get large mansions. Poor ones get cottages. That division's always been there.

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Originally Posted by Andevom

Rich FCs get large mansions. Poor ones get cottages. That division's always been there.

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Difference: Obtainable via ingame money =/= Cash

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Originally Posted by Rasylia

Difference: Obtainable via ingame money =/= Cash

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How would you know? Are you tracking how many FC's are actually not buying gil from RMTs?

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Originally Posted by Danbo05

How would you know? Are you tracking how many FC's are actually not buying gil from RMTs?

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*sigh* What the actual f does RMT have to do with this?

Big house= avaiable for Gil
Golden marriage= available for.... Cash

Guess why we are mad about that one

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Originally Posted by Xhominid

Stop using that logic, it really doesn't make you any smarter in the least...

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Have you even read the one I quoted ?

Did you all vote against net neutrality? You already pay but what if your YouTube got put behind a paywall. It's optional to be Internet. Ask yourself that. Would you be ok with that or is it just a manner of I have money so I'm ok. I'm pretty curious no judgement

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Originally Posted by Mook_Mook

You're right buying a physical product with a code is the same as buying a digital minion. Oh wait it's not.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k95DSQbQmJY

Great job on that, it's like you can't even pay attention to what I'm saying and explode on reaction so I'll say this again with clarity:
If I decided to want to eat every single burger in the world, should I complain that I would need to pay for other expenses for my dream to become reality? It's the same if you simply to have a marriage for the mount and minion and the Squenix Merchandise, one does not suddenly differentiate form the other, you still need to pay Real Money for both of them.

Also to add since my counter part brought up an arguement that was not discussed. Physical product with a minion reward was not something I supported . But buying a cd for the cd and getting a minion with it was a sad causality for those collectors and I'm genuinely sorry that se did that and did not support the minion transactions through it.

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Originally Posted by Mook_Mook

Did you all vote against net neutrality? You already pay but what if your YouTube got put behind a paywall. It's optional to be Internet. Ask yourself that. Would you be ok with that or is it just a manner of I have money so I'm ok. I'm pretty curious no judgement

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YouTube charges for certain content (such as movies), and having said feature doesn't impede anyone else's use of the service. You're still given what you're promised for no additional cost, there are just added things you can pay for should you wish.

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Originally Posted by Xhominid

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k95DSQbQmJY

Great job on that, it's like you can't even pay attention to what I'm saying and explode on reaction so I'll say this again with clarity:
If I decided to want to eat every single burger in the world, should I complain that I would need to pay for other expenses for my dream to become reality? It's the same if you simply to have a marriage for the mount and minion and the Squenix Merchandise, one does not suddenly differentiate form the other, you still need to pay Real Money for both of them.

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Lol explode I've been pretty calm. You've been the one name spcalling saying I'm dillusional but I do believe you asked for people not to name call but I'm sure that's only when it's in your favor. And way to ignore the rest of it. I approve of your tactics pretty clever

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Originally Posted by Andevom

YouTube charges for certain content (such as movies), and having said feature doesn't impede anyone else's use of the service. You're still given what you're promised for no additional cost, there are just added things you can pay for should you wish.

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I would like to add clarity to this. You pay your ISp for access to the Internet. With that your expectation to that are you get internet now what if sites whole are blocked behind pay your ISp more to access it. Would you be ok with that

I think you guys need to get out of your moms basement, Get a job, and experience some real things in life. The level this is going is just ridiculous...

To everyone ill be back in a bit this is my source of entertainment for the day but other tasks require my attention

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Originally Posted by Mook_Mook

I would like to add clarity to this. You pay your ISp for access to the Internet. With that your expectation to that are you get internet now what if sites whole are blocked behind pay your ISp more to access it. Would you be ok with that

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This implies that SE is going to charge people for something they once got for free....which is completely not the case.

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Originally Posted by Vondoomervil

I think you guys need to get out of your moms basement

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And you are... how old exactly?

Just curious.

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Originally Posted by Mook_Mook

Lol explode I've been pretty calm. You've been the one name spcalling saying I'm dillusional but I do believe you asked for people not to name call but I'm sure that's only when it's in your favor. And way to ignore the rest of it. I approve of your tactics pretty clever

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Delusional isn't name calling bro, it's a state of mind, which you guys are being a good job of putting on yourselves. Name calling would be more in the lines of moron, ninny.

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Originally Posted by Andevom

This implies that SE is going to charge people for something they once got for free....which is completely not the case.

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Ghost costumes and Pumpkin Heads in the cash shop. Regardless if the people who did the events can still buy them with gil from the Calamity Salvager, it is indeed something that was once made available for free in game and now is only available through the cash shop, and the same thing will very likely happen to all previous seasonal rewards that were also purchasable for gil. So yes, they're already charging for things that were once free.

Some people just enter the game to hang out with their friends. That's their "winning". To them, by your logic, the sub is already P2W. How is that fair? They should allow people to play the game for free! Oh wait...

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Originally Posted by lololink

Have you even read the one I quoted ?

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let's see :

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Originally Posted by Andevom

Think of it as reflecting reality.

Some people don't care at all about the flair and get married extremely cheap.

Others invest thousands upon thousands of dollars for all the extravagance. Hell, some spend thousands on the cake alone.

So yeah, you can't have the fancy, expensive wedding if you can't pay for it, but you can still get married. Just like you can't have the Fat Chocobo if you don't buy the collector's edition. I don't recall seeing a hundred threads whining about that (I'm sure someone, somewhere did, but not at this level), and it's essentially the same thing.

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Originally Posted by lololink

Reflecting reality ? You can use a money that doesn't exist in the real world to have a better wedding that you can't get with real world money Oo?

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Oh right. Real life marriage.

Let's see. Real life marriage has a small amount of "usual" expenses (rings at least. You have the possibility to marry without any, but you're most likely to get them anyway, because tradition. Then maybe honey moon if you can afford it, maybe a better than usual meal like expensive restaurant or some stuff to celebrate). There might even be some administrative fees that I don't know off to formalize it. And then you have the extravaganza that can be added, with super high prices because wedding = money cow.


Now let's transpose to in game EB :
unavoidable expenses => monthly sub, regular marriage
extravaganza => gold marriage with cash shop

not so hard, was it ? :rolleyes:


(just in case you didn't notice, your regular EB is paid by your monthly sub. Sure it is just like every other content in game right now or to come soon, yet you are already paying real money for it, regardless of if you use the feature or not. The gold edition is just charging you extra fees for extra fluff. But maybe you never thought about all that this way ;) )

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Originally Posted by Roris

Ghost costumes and Pumpkin Heads in the cash shop. Regardless if the people who did the events can still buy them with gil from the Calamity Salvager, it is indeed something that was once made available for free in game and now is only available through the cash shop, and the same thing will very likely happen to all previous seasonal rewards that were also purchasable for gil. So yes, they're already charging for things that were once free.

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except the ones who are likely to buy it are those who can't buy the seasonal gear for gils because they weren't here during said events. So they never had access to this gear. So no.

Technically you're right though, but in practice this is not what's happening. They're charging for things that buyers can't get at all out of CS. Of course it will be a totally different matter if they release these items again in future events, as some customers could then feel cheated for buying an item they can then get for free (and only for a handful of gils, mind you)

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Originally Posted by Roris

Except there were NPCs that sold the items from past iterations of those events, meaning you could buy the Pumpkin Heads, you could buy the swimsuits and yukatas, you could buy the egg caps etc. all with gil even if you missed out on previous events a year or two before. Alts can't get them anymore either since the Calamity Salvager is character specific.

So again, items that were once offered for free, even to people who weren't around then, are now cash shop only.

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there were ? I never noticed any out of the calamity salvagers. If there were, disregard my comment about your post

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

except the ones who are likely to buy it are those who can't buy the seasonal gear for gils because they weren't here during said events. So they never had access to this gear. So no.

Technically you're right though, but in practice this is not what's happening. They're charging for things that buyers can't get at all out of CS. Of course it will be a totally different matter if they release these items again in future events, as some customers could then feel cheated for buying an item they can then get for free (and only for a handful of gils, mind you)

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Except there were NPCs that sold the items from past iterations of those events, meaning you could buy the Pumpkin Heads, you could buy the swimsuits and yukatas, you could buy the egg caps etc. all with gil even if you missed out on previous events a year or two before. Alts can't get them anymore either since the Calamity Salvager is character specific.

So again, items that were once offered for free, even to people who weren't around then, are now cash shop only.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

@LunaHoshino: without be insulting, aren't you a bit selfish? i means you want to force your own view of the game into the other...
each player is free to do whatever they want in the game and you have no right to define what it's.... them pleasure.

i know people spending time to complete the achievement, other that prefere spend time control the market, and other spend time and gils into them housing, and other people prefering working on them skin....

you have tons of way to enjoy the game... your are not the only one! respect the other pleasure as they respect your.

thanks.

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People are free to "win" the game however they want. That doesn't change the fact that SE has its own definition of what constitutes "winning" in the game, and to them, collecting mounts and minions is not "winning." That is the crux of my argument. They are the creator of the game, their word is law when it comes to how the game works.

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

People are free to "win" the game however they want. That doesn't change the fact that SE has its own definition of what constitutes "winning" in the game, and to them, collecting mounts and minions is not "winning." That is the crux of my argument. They are the creator of the game, their word is law when it comes to how the game works.

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Feel free to link a direct statement by SE where it explicitly mentions the exact terms to winning this game. You've already been told minions and mounts are featured in a player's Lodestone page under the Character tab and in game both their guides are also under the Character menu, meaning they're considered by SE themselves to be just as important for a character as their gear and stats. Their word is law after all and it's right there for everyone to see.

If you somehow still think progressing through the story is the only thing that counts as winning, then a PvE oriented player can't ever truly win the game either because DoH/DoLs also have their own storylines. Even the minions and mounts are provided with tiny bits of lore, therefore a player who doesn't obtain them all can't really win either because they won't ever get the game's entire story and lore. That's as silly as your argument sounds on your own personal definition of winning.