White Mage vs Scholar - Why is White Mage lacking?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebazy

Eos has her place, I can pull 150dps + 1000hps on phase 1 of turn 13 using her.

---

That's great, but the point stands. She's still unnecessary the majority of the time.


As for the AoE timing discussion, I think that was more about my insisting that knowing when to precast (i.e. time cast to heal right after damage actually occurs) heals and doing so was important for both healers in response to Kyomih suggesting that SCHs had a greater burden to know fights.

Same could be said for a lot of abilities.

She has her place.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebazy

Same could be said for a lot of abilities.

She has her place.

---

And I thought calling her useless for only "95%" of content was being generous.

And how much time have you put into each FCOB turn?

For that matter, have you actually made it past T10/T11 yet?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebazy

And how much time have you put into each FCOB turn?

For that matter, have you actually made it past T10/T11 yet?

---

Don't get snarky with me. If you read carefully, you'll agree with what I actually said (as opposed to what you seem to think I said).

I did not say that Eos was trash; I said that she was not needed or useful for most of the game's content, which is true.

Calling something useless for 95% of endgame content when chances are, you've not seen 50% of it?

Not being snarky, simply suggesting that it's best to keep an open mind on stuff you may well see as niche or borderline useless. *everything* has a use, just because you haven't found it yet doesn't mean it's entirely useless =(

Aaaaaand the "I'm more hardcore than thou" card has been pulled :P

I'm trying my hardest not to sound elitist =(

Honestly though, I can't see how I can explain it! I suppose I could point out that EoS is arguably the better choice for low level 4 mans. Sub 20 is a no brainer, and if you've got aero/cleric stance loaded, you can make a good case for EoS being better right up until 50 depending on the party. Does that balance it out? =(

To further my point, Cyn is stating that EoS is doesn't have a place in end game content, 95% or not. That isn't the case.

T10 final phase
T11 Orb phase
T12 Bennu and fountain phases.
T13 phases 3 and 4.

These are points in the current endgame where EoS is a strong and very viable choice. The best choice? That's not for me to say, it's all a personal preference and everyone is entitled to their own opinion on the matter.

Back on track, whm are still fine!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebazy

I'm trying my hardest not to sound elitist =(

Honestly though, I can't see how I can explain it! I suppose I could point out that EoS is arguably the better choice for low level 4 mans. Sub 20 is a no brainer, and if you've got aero/cleric stance loaded, you can make a good case for EoS being better right up until 50 depending on the party. Does that balance it out? =(

---

There's only one potential problem with Eos, really: It takes away a responsibility from the White Mage. Which would be AoE healing*. If we were to assume the T13 Phase 1 example, a Medica II will top off those hit with Mega Flare before Earth Shaker is being cast. So here's the issue with Eos being thrown into the mix here:
If Medica II is sufficient to top off everyone within the needed timeframe, Whispering Dawn - and to an extend Fey Illumination - will simply cause overheal.
If Whisper Dawn is being used instead of Medica II, this will save the White Mage 452 MP. Considering Whispering Dawn and Medica II have the same potency in the end, Medica II will be unnecessary. Let's forget about the 5y range distance for now and assume everyone's getting hit by Whispering Dawn.

The former being unnecessary while the latter is a potential advantage. If the white mage has MP issues with the encounter. If the White Mage doesn't have MP issues with the encounter, however, Eos's value (or utility, name yours) will drop. Of course, this highly depends on the White Mage you're working with. Depending on how the group handles T13, Fey Covenant may not be necessary either. If everyone were to gear up to have enough HP to survive Giga-/Tera flare with sacred soil, succor and virus - Or even with less, I guess - Eos's uses will be questioned. A lot of if-then-else, of course.

Selene, on the other hand, has two buff abilities that has some use. The effective DPS increase isn't astronomical, however. And of course, Selene's uses come to question as well as the DPS check may or may not be a problem. Unless you're a few seconds worth of DPS short to clear an encounter, Selene has no actual effective value aside from clearing content quicker. With effective value I mean that you would -need- Selene's buff to meet the DPS check.

* AoE damage that happens on set intervals for one moment, rather than continuously

edit: Grammar and skill name fix

Indeed, Selene's haste buffs whilst nice, are rather overestimated imo! Again, they most certainly have their place too, extra DPS in phase 1 and 2 of T13 will always be good <3

The issue I have with Eos is that her additional healing is not appreciated most of the time. Selene's damage increase is indeed not astronomical, but more damage is rarely unappreciated.

Sebazy, I get what you are saying, and I'm not sure I can express this thought with text without sounding belligerent, but I don't wish to be condescended to. I don't actually recall stating that Eos was useless for end-game content; rather, that content is about the only thing you'd consider using her for outside of low-level duties.

When I say "not useful for most content," I mean literally that. I'm not sure how this tangent got started, but I meant exactly what I said. If I hadn't wished to allow for specific applications of Eos' abilities being useful, I would have called her trash and left it at that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cynfael

Poor Eos collects dust 95% of the time at end-game

---

And indeed, extra DPS is almost never a bad thing, but don't forget that extra healing is also a boon particularly whilst still learning encounters (I was unlucky enough to spend a rough total of 72+ hours on T13 with a group only for it to steadily chew itself apart and I'm now repeating that learning process with a new group), whilst I'm pretty confident in my own ability on that turn, the WHM I'm with now doesn't have the same luxury of experience as me, so going with EoS rather than Selene not only lightens the load on her, it also allows me a little more wiggle room to make up the DPS deficit myself or cover mistakes that invariably happen. Those numbers I'm pulling aren't just for show, they are there to give us our best chance at getting into phase 3 as cleanly and consistently as possible.

As for sounding condescending, I'm honestly not sure how else I can put it quite frankly. You are talking about content you haven't yet experienced. T13 is a healer check like nothing else I've seen in this game yet, done T11? Take that feeling of the tanks getting pummelled and take out all the non damaging fluff in between those big hits and cleaves and you're getting there, when we first hit the turn with little 120+ gear on hand, it was literally a case of timing every last heal to within 0.5 of a second or so, if I was early or late, the tank died, no ifs, no buts. Whilst it's easier now with the additional gear my group has, I'm still prioritising keeping everyone alive rather than pushing the DPS.

Once we are at the point where we get a clean transition to phase 4 with the pain still up then I'll weigh up Selene.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cynfael

And I thought calling her useless for only "95%" of content was being generous.

---

So in closing. Eos is arguably the stronger choice in low level content, Selene definitely takes centre stage for 'mid-game' farm content where you simply want to burn through trivial fluff as fast as possible, however, she becomes entirely viable again in the proper end game (aka FCOB as of now), it'd take a pretty stalwart Selene fan to not bring EoS out for the Bennu phase on T12! Once 2.5 hits and groups are close to BiS then chances are Selene will be ruling the roost again. Obviously, that's my personal opinion rather than words of fact and I appreciate that!

Thank you for the response. I still maintain that my statement is true unless you consider T13 the entirety of end-game content.

I hadn't anticipated needing to elaborate on my original statement because I (perhaps incorrectly) assumed that my meaning would be clear. Just because there are specific phases in which you might swap to Eos or fights where you might default to Eos while learning/gearing doesn't mean that she isn't unnecessary for the rest of the time. That was my point from the beginning and why I was careful not to call her out as being a total loss.

I personally find Eos more fun to use than Selene, but the additional buffer becomes unnecessary in most fights once you know the mechanics and are sufficiently geared. Maybe T12 and 13 are the exception?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

Before I go into this, I assume you're referring to FCOB Turn 4 (Turn 13). Could you specify the exact timing? When you mention "Before mega flare", I'm understanding that as either: After Rage or right before Mega flare.

---

I missed this sorry =(

For phase 2 I cast medica II to land during Bahamut's MegaFlare cast. Whilst this is in itself inefficient, it serves two purposes. First up, it gives me an extra GCD to heal the MT or potentially try to top a MegaFlare marker that may have got clipped by someone else. Secondly, allows me more room to ensure I can land a Medica 1 between the MegaFlare marker explosion and the tower detonating, this almost entirely eradicates the risk of people dieing when the phase 2 tower pops under the MegaFlare markers. Finally, I can usually top people up for Rage with a second Medica 1 rather than needing a Cure III stack. It's not quite the most efficient method of healing this point of the encounter, but it's the safest I've managed to find as WHM.

http://www.hitbox.tv/video/333269 - 4:15 shows it in action the clearest, although I had to Cure III ahead of both rage's on that recording that's generally not the case.

I do almost the same as SCH, trying to catch as many people with Succor as I can during the last set of orbs, leading in with a Rouse/WD and timing that second succor to land before the tower.

Wow! I'm literally shocked that someone stitched this thread back together and revived it by shocking it with several thousand bolts of lightning...

Seriously though, WHM is not really lacking per se, but I think the only thing it could use is a slight buff to SoS and that's just about it IMO.

WHM = potent burst healer
SCH = preventative healer

The two complement each other VERY well in 8 man parties. Succor gives time for Regenerative abilities to become more noticeable and less taxing on WHM MP, when the two work in tandem. When I play SCH I usually will tell the WHM I will get the first swiftcast Rez, since my MP management is a bit more loose than WHM and that the WHM can handle healing mechanics like tumult while I perform rez, Lustrate target and protect the team with a barrier for WHM to heal effectively.

Both have their strengths and weaknesses, but they REALLY shine together!

Both healing classes have their strengths and weakness's in any well constructed raid team they would want 1 of each to benefit from each of their strengths. SCH cant heal as much as a WHM, WHM cant mitigate as much as a SCH.

I play both WHM/SCH depending what i prefer or is needed, both are great in their own way since both styles are different and both have different skills to bring to the fight. Having 1 of each in any team is the best option you can go for in any content imo. Also sure its nice to add a little dps out during a fight as a healer but your in the fight to heal not dps. Ive seen countless wipes because healers spend too much time doing dps and not enough healing.

This isnt bias in any way btw but i will say this, Stoneskin to me is 1 of the best skills in this game in any fight. Its very underestimated.

But like whats been said, any decent raid team will use a SCH AND a WHM, there is nothing better in content than having both.

And no ive not reached FCOB yet (doing SCOB) i hope to at somepoint but thats just what my experience has been thus far.

I play both as does (I'm sure) a large chunk of the player base.
I don't think it should be about one being better then the other. They were designed to compliment each other...and do
(This will only be a viable topic when we know more about the new healer; how are they going to fit it in between the two current ones as to not force one into retirement... Or could be broken itself I guess.
It's really coming down to the fact in a (non pug) situation or over geared group that SHC can afford to push a lil more dps... Which imo is so stupid to argue which class is completely better then the other in ONE lil area lol. That's just Epeening just like Dps and tanks do... (I mean this was brought up as an "overall" conversation..) And in any game when players are capping out special perks of a class can be found; a SCH for example getting room to dps, solo heal, or switch their healing summons. A WHM can solo it too lol.

Cont...
WHM can just as easy get their regens/med up right before the dmg comes in if they don't have a SCH to get through. Ie Both can be preemptive in healing if need be. SCH's of coarse is baked in.
As many above said they both have disadvantage and strengths. I however do not see it that way; its obvious they were designed to compliment each other. And both will do fine in groups with another of the same. To me its more like they just have their unique perks (not disadvantage.)

When did they add a character limit? *sigh SE...

http://www.immortalofficial.com/blog...9/09/band2.jpg

Had a few runs off ST, the other day, as a WHM with another WHM and we didn't have any issue/s keeping our party healthy.

Having played both SCH and WHM, I cannot really say that WHM is lacking. It has all the tools I need. I mean, if I want bigger heals, I pop DS. Medica II is very handy when I want to apply HoT to the entire party which I can only do not that often as SCH. Not to mention that the regeneration it gives stacks with Regen so more HoT. I may have come into the point where MP becomes an issue but it's just a reminder for me to be more mindful of my healing. It's teaching me to use the right healing spell at the right moment to which SCH are very forgiving. I feel more in control when I play WHM mainly due to the fact that it has 3 AoE heals which I can use whenever I wanted to. SCH, OTOH, may lack of a more potent AoE healing but acts as additional HP on top of each party member's max HP.

What needs fixing is the character limit in the forums. :D

lol this thread.

I think of it this way, can the dps selene contribute do more then I can EOS frees me up from healing.

Obviously little things like if you have 2+SMNs its wasteful to use selene imo.

I play both sch and whm, and they both are perfectly fine, shroud is fine it should be used at 1k mp in or if there are adds, then every time its up after that. sch and the fair if they heal the same target is equivalent of a cure 2 unless rouse is on. Obviously you don't comprehend the value and utility of both.

I just wish whm was less boring.
some more Off gcd abilities besides bene, maybe based off cure/cleanse procs.

After actually reading 15 pages of this thread (yes, I'm bored at work), no one has made the most important statement yet:

Preference.

If you prefer SCH over WHM, you are going to play it better. The same goes for the reverse. They are almost equally balanced. I'm a better SCH than WHM, because I like it more, it suits my personal play style.

When Astroligian rolls out, we can all have a laugh at these threads.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eggnook24

After actually reading 15 pages of this thread (yes, I'm bored at work), no one has made the most important statement yet:

Preference.

---

This topic wasn't about preference or whatnot. The OP was making a statement about one job being inferior to another kit-wise.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

This topic wasn't about preference or whatnot. The OP was making a statement about one job being inferior to another kit-wise.

---

You left out the rest of my post. The point I was making was they are both equal in terms of gameplay in the right hands. OP thinks SCH is better just because he prefers the tools it has.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eggnook24

You left out the rest of my post. The point I was making was they are both equal in terms of gameplay in the right hands. OP thinks SCH is better just because he prefers the tools it has.

---

Not really. The OP is stating, flat out, that WHM is worse and needs to be buffed to be on par with SCH. He never claims it as personal bias, but presents it as fact.

Words of wisdom from Eggnook. Hey guy what's up? How's work? Anyway, my take on this is "Yes"...maybe WHM could use a buff, just a small buff to mp issues the job is know to have from time to time. (Shiva EX FIGHT). I play both but mostly stick to Sch. because of my deep SMN roots. A team of Sch and Whm is good. I'd like Whm to get more DPS spells maybe Wind 3 or Earth 3 anything like a AOE with a dot just to make Whm more fun to play.

I don't leave home without my pocket WHM. The toolset is really strong (same w/SCH) honestly the balance between the two healing classes in this game is very good and very synergistic. Better than othe games I've played. Maybe more mana rerun on shroud or at least have it scale as a percent? Really all in all it is in good shape.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FranSeara

I'd like Whm to get more DPS spells maybe Wind 3 or Earth 3 anything like a AOE with a dot just to make Whm more fun to play.

---

What about Holy II? =3

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FranSeara

I play both but mostly stick to Sch. because of my deep SMN roots. A team of Sch and Whm is good. I'd like Whm to get more DPS spells maybe Wind 3 or Earth 3 anything like a AOE with a dot just to make Whm more fun to play.

---

I don't see how more DPS would "fix" WHM. WHM, if anything, really only has issues with one thing. And that's MP. More DPS would make them more fun? I find WHM plenty fun... And WHM already has a lot of DPS, why would you want to add more?

One thing a lot of people tend to oversee is how the class works. Not the skills, but how the class functions as a whole. The main reason why a lot of people LOVE scholar--aside from their shields, mitigation and DPS boosts--is because of Lustrate.

Now why do I say Lustrate? Because there have been a variety of posts complaining about Lustrate vs. Benediction. But why is this the case? It's because Scholars can do more things between global cooldowns (GCD for short) than White Mages can. And because of this, it enables Scholars to throw in that beautiful clutch Lustrate onto someone while simultaneously throwing out 300 potency embraces on-top of Adlos and Physicks.

So when looking at a Scholar as a whole, they have essentially two global cooldowns and a variety of off-gcd which enable them to output more skills per second. When doing anything as a Scholar, you have three things to do per GCD rotation:

[1] GCD Skills.Aero, Cure, Stoneskin, Protect, Physick, Succor, Adloquium, Leeches, Ruin, Ruin II, Bio, Bio II, Miasma, Miasma II, Resurrection, Shadow Flare, Summon, and Summon II.

[2] Fairy Skills.Embrace, Silent Dusk, Fey Light, Fey Glow, Whispering Dawn, Fey Covenant, and Fey Illumination.

[3] Off-GCD Skills.Surecast, Swiftcast, Lustrate, Sacred Soil, Aetherflow, Virus, Cleric Stance, Eye for an Eye, Energy Drain and Bane.

Now looking at White Mage, the OP has already pointed out White Mage's strengths and weaknesses. Especially how Regen cannot be compared to an Embrace.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Slib

Regen doesn't come close to what Eos heals for on a single target.

---

Agreed. Embrace has a 300 potency whereas Regen has a 150 potency over a 21 second duration (1050 total potency). Up-front healing is almost always better than heal overtimes as it puts you ahead in healing when it comes to HP per second vs. Damage per second.

Let's see... What else... Oh. A Tl;dr.
When a group is well experienced in a dungeon and is only taking unavoidable raid-damage, Scholars excel because the bulk healing White Mage's have isn't needed. Therefore, the enables Scholars to rely on their second GCD cooldown set (Fairy) to heal while they can DPS and do a variety of other things.

And and and and. Regen =/= Embrace. It's sort of like that question asking you if you'd take 1000 dollars now or get 1000 dollars every 5 years for a total of 50 years ($10000)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VanilleFang

I don't see how more DPS would "fix" WHM. WHM, if anything, really only has issues with one thing. And that's MP. More DPS would make them more fun? I find WHM plenty fun... And WHM already has a lot of DPS, why would you want to add more?

---

Making WHM more FUN to play could be good for a many players (I hate playing Whm.....it's boring = Scholar rocks!!) Like I said FIX the MP issues first then make them more fun to play. Adding earth 3 or Wind 3 wouldn't destory the job but make it stand out and show its a job full of great potential. They are masters of earth and wind...let them show it! ps: not putting down the job but I wanna see it shine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Parawill

-snip-

Let's see... What else... Oh. A Tl;dr.
When a group is well experienced in a dungeon and is only taking unavoidable raid-damage, Scholars excel because the bulk healing White Mage's have isn't needed. Therefore, the enables Scholars to rely on their second GCD cooldown set (Fairy) to heal while they can DPS and do a variety of other things.

And and and and. Regen =/= Embrace. It's sort of like that question asking you if you'd take 1000 dollars now or get 1000 dollars every 5 years for a total of 50 years ($10000)

---

What I don't get is why in the hell anyone would even compare regen to embrace in the first place... It's not a fair comparison at all, even for an argument such as this one. And yes I know that you did not compare it as your last sentence indicates you acknowledge that regen =/= embrace. What I don't agree with in your tl;dr section is this:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Parawill

Scholars excel because the bulk healing White Mage's have isn't needed. Therefore, the enables Scholars to rely on their second GCD cooldown set (Fairy) to heal while they can DPS and do a variety of other things.

---

Have you met ANY of the primals? Have you met Scyalla, Xande, Twintania, or even done any of the HM dungeons? And that's just the early content that requires "bulk" (assuming you meant group/AoE) healing.

Seriously AoE healing is needed and scholar's do not possess many tools at all to cover this arena. They cannot sit on a team in a HM dungeon with fairy on auto heal, while they just DPS, sure if they are bad SCH's and let teammates die occasionally during rare instances when tanks lose hate or more frequently when bosses do damage to the entire party.

Scholar and WHM's both have pros and cons. The ONLY thing WHM lacks is a better MP recovery skill. The only thing they should buff is SoS in one of two ways (either slash the recharge time of the skill by half or increase the amount of MP restored). Other than that WHM is just fine as is...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zedd702

The ONLY thing WHM lacks is a better MP recovery skill. The only thing they should buff is SoS in one of two ways (either slash the recharge time of the skill by half or increase the amount of MP restored). Other than that WHM is just fine as is...

---

I would even say WHM is already perfect and does not require any better MP recovery skill :o Still can't figure out where so many ppl find that WHM have issues with MP ? Actually WHM job is to manage MP, this is different, this is one of the core of the job, not an issue or a lack or whatever x)

I think SCH and WHM are almost perfectly balanced. They complement each other so well and they have clearly defined roles.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kelya

I would even say WHM is already perfect and does not require any better MP recovery skill :o Still can't figure out where so many ppl find that WHM have issues with MP ? Actually WHM job is to manage MP, this is different, this is one of the core of the job, not an issue or a lack or whatever x)

---

Erm I disagree that it's their job per se... That's more of a SCH/SMN responsibility as they have skills to do so IMO... Should the player be aware of their MP playing WHM? Sure. Also don't misunderstand me. Although I said they "should" buff SoS. What I meant to say was if anything the only thing that should be changed is a buff to SoS.

If you have a team that has two WHM and the WHM's are required to rez several times as we know end-game and content can be very demanding on healers. Those rez's can hinder you significantly and in some cases , Titan EX comes to mind, once someone dies they become more difficult to keep alive and sometimes even tumults or other mechanics will kill the party member in question. Yes some of that can be blamed on gear or bad timing of rez's and a plethora of other things.

It's one thing if the WHM is just spamming AoE heals, throwing away their MP, but it's another is they are doing all the can and know what is required in certain phases/mechanics that require DPS checks, mishaps, etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Able

I think SCH and WHM are almost perfectly balanced. They complement each other so well and they have clearly defined roles.

---

Agreed.

Yeah with double WHM it will be complicated to surpass many raises but in one hand if you do your job correctly, you will have enough MP saved for these raises (+ the MP potions + the mage ballad + the SMN if there is one), in the other hand, if there are so much raises to do, the whole team need to improve, it's not really the MP pool of the WHM that is going to slow the progression, but sure it doesn't help if you want to "help the more you can to go further in the battle".

Then you can go Piety build like a lot of WHM... and you have no more reasons to worry about that (5K + MP is huge and the gameplay is totally different from having 4K, the tolerance of error increases a lot).

Remember that assuming you have better MP recovery to "panick raise often/party failing" that would also mean you would have this MP recovery bonus in all the others situations where you don't need to raise. You would have it available all the time, meaning you could use it for another thing than raising, and thus, you would have easier moments to do your job when things are already going good (i.e not raising a lot), reducing the difficulty of the job for 0 reason in this case (similar effects than having Piety build).

So I understand the desire to help the team the maximum with your job when you are progressing in the content, or in a pick up team or others situations. But these are only some situations from the rest of all the situations. Going Piety build you almost resolve this problem about raises but the advantage is you let the choice to the gamer because YOU choose to max your Piety stat and you are not imposing it to all the WHM in the world, so this improvment in MP recovery is still very uneeded overall.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kelya

Yeah with double WHM it will be complicated to surpass many raises but in one hand if you do your job correctly, you will have enough MP saved for these raises (+ the MP potions + the mage ballad + the SMN if there is one), in the other hand, if there are so much raises to do, the whole team need to improve, it's not really the MP pool of the WHM that is going to slow the progression, but sure it doesn't help if you want to "help the more you can to go further in the battle".

---

I never depend on mage ballad at all. There are alot of terrible BRD's out there that don't know how to or even when to apply their skills. They just (narrow-mindlessly) focus on DPS (as most do, while ignoring everything else). I'm speaking of just core mechanics of WHM. I have often times been on teams where there was no SMN or BRD or teams that where did have a SMN or BRD, but they never really used anything outside their normal DPS rotation, unless one of the WHM's died.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kelya

Then you can go Piety build like a lot of WHM... and you have no more reasons to worry about that (5K + MP is huge and the gameplay is totally different from having 4K, the tolerance of error increases a lot).

---

Lol. I don't do piety builds on WHM as it's a waste IMO. I'd rather the MIND get the points than the negligible points from piety as that really does not help MP THAT much imho. I feel that you think i am complaining or whining about this and I want to take a moment to reiterate that I am not. In fact, I don't have many issues with WHM at all unless the team is not informed of the encounter and I am left mindlessly spending MP healing through avoidable AoE's that people don't move out of etc. I was just stating that If that devs DID decide to do anything to WHM that the only thing that they should change/buff is SoS (outside of any future spells they'll get from lvl cap increase). I like WHM as it is, but that change would help the job more. That's all I was saying.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kelya

Remember that assuming you have better MP recovery to "panick raise often/party failing" that would also mean you would have this MP recovery bonus in all the others situations where you don't need to raise. You would have it available all the time, meaning you could use it for another thing than raising, and thus, you would have easier moments to do your job when things are already going good (i.e not raising a lot), reducing the difficulty of the job for 0 reason in this case (similar effects than having Piety build).

So I understand the desire to help the team the maximum with your job when you are progressing in the content, or in a pick up team or others situations. But these are only some situations from the rest of all the situations. Going Piety build you almost resolve this problem about raises but the advantage is you let the choice to the gamer because YOU choose to max your Piety stat and you are not imposing it to all the WHM in the world, so this improvment in MP recovery is still very uneeded overall.

---

This is irrelevant as you misunderstood my position completely...

Then it's a player problem (the bard/smn that isn't helping when needed) and that's all ? I know how meeting bad players / bad situations in the fight is as a healer, but this is part of the game itself, in the end that doesn't require some help, as little as it would be, because the help is permanent once you give it and it changes the job a lot even if it seems minor. You already have the over gear + echo buff to do this to help when things go wrong and team is chaotic, but again, when it's not, when you're raiding with a WHM/SCH (it's mostly that in raid normally) and static/known team, you never want that little extra help and if you want (only raison then is for progression) then you can add some piety to be comfortable enough. And when it's time to fail, then it's time to fail and do better. But here this is only my opinion, otherwise you can ignore this paragraph and read the following.

I was talking about Piety build for all those do it because actually there are a lot and I heard a lot about it but I never said you had troubles with your MP and the goods WHM are for me, those who can do any fight without a lot of MP, sorry if it wasn't clear but I will never stand for stacking piety ^^ I was just giving another solution to the "MP recovery bonus" since in this way, those who feel the need can have it, and those who don't, stay like that. This is the important point, I don't really want to say "yes/no we need some MP recovery" but I'm saying that if the answer is "yes", if that happens, then that should happen with the Piety build in order to let the player choose. It's like the echo : you can choose to turn it off, if it wasn't possible, honeslty a lot of ppl (I hope!) would be very angry about that.