SE's most difinitive statement yet on parsers

If people want to run parsers, it doesn't bother me. I've never run one between FFXI and now though. I don't think it gives them an advantage really, and Yoshi sees where they're coming from...but it is against the ToS. So don't get caught guys. Don't mouth off about it chat, don't say you use it, nothing.

Hunt radar - on the other hand - I hope every one of those people get banned. That is terrible, truly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nel_Celestine

So you'd rather a game where people don't help anyone except the raider elite and everyone else gets frustrated, quits and the game dies out due to limited consumers? Sorry if I disagree with you and think HELPING people rather then kicking them is the better option.

---

What about those who turn abusive or just totally ignore any friendly advice given? What about those who cause wipes by failing on the same thing every single time refusing to take advice and just blame others, even when it is obvious that it was their fault. Two sides to every thing. Of course there are people open for advice, then theirs the others.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nel_Celestine

Now, how is anyone going to improve if people are going to use parsers to keep them OUT of content rather than using them to help improve them FOR it?

---

Well there are the level 50 training dummies in Whitebrim, west of camp Dragonhead.
Practice your rotation until the mob dies the fastest. Basically you keep practicing it until it becomes muscle memory.

You can tell when you fully memorized the rotation based on how quickly the dummy dies, no parser needed (although I am sure it would help). This helps you not only on pressing the buttons in the right order, but responding to any job procs (straighter shot for brds or thundercloud for blms, etc.)

It will show your DOT damage as well as direct damage if you set the ui to show damage on screen, so you can eyeball the numbers to get an idea for gear sets and etc..



Now I understand that some players want to be casual about their gameplay and not put in the effort required to practice like this, which brings me to one question for you:

Why should anyone want you in the party if you cannot make any effort to bring the damage?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Krr

Of course, you should not use a third-party parser. It's against the TOS.

---

You know what annoys me more? It's my unfair view of summoners and how I think they have the lowest dps and that they're entirely situational. I main a Bard and they can literally do everything it comes with a high cost and that is they're instant hate magnets no tank can touch. But I've come to accept that about my chosen class but back to smn imagine if I was a parser user with that mindset you can see now why I personally don't like them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elven

-snip-

---

You're clearly playing summoner wrong then or don't understand how Summoners work, because Summoners can easily put out the most DPS in most situations, although its really close between Monk and Summoner, with Dragoon not too far behind. Only time Monks would deal more DPS than Summoners are in fights where the boss is a striking dummy (see turn 8), other than that, they're tied with Dragoons in situations where they constantly lose their stacks. If you're using the enmity bar to judge DPS, please keep in mind, around a 1/3 of a Summoner's enmity is coming from their pet. Also, Bards do the least amount of DPS. Burst DPS wise, they may be up there, but as a fight progresses and a Monk and Dragoon finishes their rotation, Bard falls to last on the DPS chart (this is assuming the party consists of people who are equally geared and equally skilled).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tashigi

That was a general statement and yes there is; can be found in many other games. Skyrim comes to mind almost instantly.
Unless we're mixing the term up.

---

FFXIV is an MMO, not a single player RPG with a huge, developer-approved toolset and resource release. You're confusing your entitlements. Just because the PC isn't a walled garden like the PS3/4, doesn't mean you have the right to mess with anything you fancy changing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gardthorne

Parsing is a basic function that's existed and been required at high level play since this genre has existed. If it isn't intended then it's broken and users will fix it like they always have.

---

There is no 'fixing' a design brief that you're not privy to. Unless you're sat around the table, helping to decide what goes in and what doesn't, you have no place attempting to infer truth in either direction. Until the UI SDK is released with an appropriate EULA to govern how it is used, no player has the right to alter someone else's hard work. To do so, to add features you personally consider a 'requirement,' smacks of little more than a serious dose of self-entitlement and way too much ego. If the team decides not to add a feature, and that's game breaking to you, go and write your own MMO.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Krr

It's similar to how, say, PSO2 says "No American players" in their TOS, but you can relatively freely and safely play in American server communities and pretty freely speak English as long as you aren't disrupting or abusive to the JP players. It's a quick corporate way to remove troublesome folks with minimal due process.

---

Not true at all. The only reason they don't enforce the ban as strictly now, is because PSO2 is a FTP game and the majority of western players connect via VPN, so can't be easily ip blocked. It was heavily enforced during earlier stages of the game, when the western portal was still on the cards, and the out-of-TOS population was smaller. It's also the reason you can't buy Arks Cash with western credit cards.

Not a relevant comparison at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Danbo05

You're clearly playing summoner wrong then or don't understand how Summoners work, because Summoners can easily put out the most DPS in most situations, although its really close between Monk and Summoner, with Dragoon not too far behind. Only time Monks would deal more DPS than Summoners are in fights where the boss is a striking dummy (see turn 8), other than that, they're tied with Dragoons in situations where they constantly lose their stacks. If you're using the enmity bar to judge DPS, please keep in mind, around a 1/3 of a Summoner's enmity is coming from their pet. Also, Bards do the least amount of DPS. Burst DPS wise, they may be up there, but as a fight progresses and a Monk and Dragoon finishes their rotation, Bard falls to last on the DPS chart (this is assuming the party consists of people who are equally geared and equally skilled).

---

You clearly missed the point of the post

(PS. Only an American could say something as conceited as 'No American players.' The TOS states no gaijin. There are more countries in the world outside of Japan than just America.)

"Connecting to the game server through the installed software is restricted to domestically located computer terminals. It's prohibited to directly connect to the server from outside Japan as well as to route a connection from outside the country through domestic computer terminals."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mogi

Sounds to me some ppl have to much time on there hands :P dose it matter who is doing the most?

---

Parsers in this game is rarely about who does the most and more about how the group as a whole is doing and how we can improve each individual.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nel_Celestine

So you'd rather a game where people don't help anyone except the raider elite and everyone else gets frustrated, quits and the game dies out due to limited consumers? Sorry if I disagree with you and think HELPING people rather then kicking them is the better option.

---

It's fine to help people that are new and/or want to improve. But when people just don't seem to learn or refuse the help, then it's not anybody's prerogative to carry bad players through content nor to teach them how to play their jobs correctly. They've had 50 levels to learn how to use their abilities and to get out of AoE and if a little push doesn't help them, it still doesn't give them the right to waste other people's time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amberyl

Not true at all. The only reason they don't enforce the ban as strictly now, is because PSO2 is a FTP game and the majority of western players connect via VPN, so can't be easily ip blocked. It was heavily enforced during earlier stages of the game, when the western portal was still on the cards, and the out-of-TOS population was smaller. It's also the reason you can't buy Arks Cash with western credit cards.

Not a relevant comparison at all.

---

Fact check: The majority of western players only connect via VPN due to a routing error on Yahoo.jp's part after a subnet mask configuration change, which was two months ago. Before that, it was trivial and safe for at least a year to connect with a western IP that could be seen with the naked eye. Sega has also officially announced, several times, that they have no intent to do an IP block, even though they easily did so on contract with the company running the SEA version with most of that region. And, basically every SEA player has noted that most VPNs are totally unviable to use now due to the blocking scheme, which just results in them having shoddy connections that are unplayable.

It is also extremely trivial, if somewhat slow, forforeign players to acquire arks cash now. If Sega didn't want them doing it, the services they use - which are in most cases blatantly fraudulent - would no longer be accepted. Period.

Whatever Sega did during the beta stages of the game is irrelevant to how that clause of the ToS is treated now, which is identical to how Square has treated the ToS with regards to parsing: something they can't enforce or don't want to invest in the tools to enforce due to the risk it poses to their business. Likewise, in both situations the 'threat' (NA players, parsers) has been proven to have minimal impact on the community as long as the particularly inappropriate ones are removed.

The comparison is relevant. Things that happened two years or more ago are not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amberyl

(PS. Only an American could say something as conceited as 'No American players.' The TOS states no gaijin. There are more countries in the world outside of Japan than just America.)

---

Only someone who's on shaky ground with their statements grasps at semantics. Dig? The statement remains relevant whether or not the ToS clause bans all foreigners or just the NA. They're 'enforcing' a specific clause in a way that doesn't reflect the clause by the letter.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Krr

Fact check

---

I love posts that start like this, as they almost always contain utter rubbish.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Krr

The majority of western players only connect via VPN due to a routing error on Yahoo.jp's part after a subnet mask configuration change, which was two months ago.

---

Absolutely not true, lol. I don't know what ship or block you hang on, but the vast majority of western players VPN due to distance-related latency messing with the way their friends appear on screen, (regardless of whether they're all local to each other or not,) and that hasn't changed since the game launched to begin with. That's a networking artefact, caused by the mechanics of the client-server code, not some transitory routing issue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Krr

And, basically every SEA player has noted that most VPNs are totally unviable to use now due to the blocking scheme, which just results in them having shoddy connections that are unplayable.

---

Most SEA players didn't need them to begin with? Why is SEA relevant? I said western, not eastern.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Krr

It is also extremely trivial, if somewhat slow, for Western players to acquire arks cash now. If Sega didn't want them doing it, the services they use - which are in most cases blatantly fraudulent - would no longer be accepted. Period.

---

You've never been to Japan, have you? How could you ban cash culture, when the host country is a cash culture? Do you have any idea how many salarymen would end up in the divorce courts if their wives could see how much they spend on gaming each month? o_0

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Krr

Whatever Sega did during the beta stages of the game is irrelevant to how that clause of the ToS is treated now, which is identical to how Square has treated the ToS with regards to parsing

---

One boils down to being unable to apply a ban consistently due to the game being FTP, and the offending player being able to roll another account without issue. The other boils down to the server being unable to detect the exploit in the first place. They are not comparable issues. If SE rolled out a gameguard system, you can guarantee parser players would disappear overnight.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Krr

Only someone who's on shaky ground with their statements grasps at semantics. Dig?

---

Relating a cultural failing has little to do with grasping at semantics.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zakalwe

Key statement is the second to last paragraph: "We would also like to remind players that third-party tools that modify or parse game data violate the User Agreement, and that players who are found to be using these tools will be met with strict disciplinary action."

---

Sorry to say, but you misread that statement. They said GAME DATA. Which is much different than LOG DATA. While people cannot use Radar or other hacks to find things in game, or modify files, or intercept game transmission from packets sent over a network. This has nothing to do with DPS parses. DPS parses use the log file located in the C:\Users\Username\Documents\My Games\FINAL FANTASY XIV - A Realm Reborn folder instead of where FFXIV is installed.

SE has no control over what you do in that folder. That is where your UI configs and screenshots go as well. You're allowed to view, edit, and modify anything in that folder (otherwise anyone photoshoping their screenshots should be banned too!). The log files are simply text files and all a parser does with those files is read them, apply math, and displays the results. Anyone with notepad and a calculator could produce the same results.

So saying DPS parser users will be banned is like saying anyone using MSPAINT.exe, NOTEPAD.exe, and CALC.exe should be as well.

As for the argument that PS3/4 users can't do things that PC users can't. That's rubbish. There's plenty of things I can do that they can't with my PC that doesn't even compare to cheats. Such as alt tabbing to my browser to look up a wiki, VOIP, and use a myriad of peripherals (I'd be surprised if the PS3 or 4 could use a 17 button gaming mouse). Of course things like Radar and other hacks are bad, but don't lump DPS parsers in with those.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaethra

They said GAME DATA. Which is much different than LOG DATA.

---

While it's kinda cute, you are absolutely deluding yourself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amberyl

While it's kinda cute, you are absolutely deluding yourself.

---

You want to provide some facts of that? Those files are not located anywhere in the directory that FFXIV is installed to. Take a look yourself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nel_Celestine

So that makes cheating totally ok? Would driving a Marathon be ok then because it's more efficient?

---

Wrong analogy there.

Sprinter A: *finishes 100m sprint* Wew, I think that was my best run, I was on fire!

Sprinter B: *finishes 100m sprint* *Takes out stopwatch and stops it* Hmm, that was worse than my last run, I think I need work on my starting technique.

Sprinter A: Hey that is cheating!

Sprinter B: Uh, sorry what?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaethra

You want to provide some facts of that? Those files are not located anywhere in the directory that FFXIV is installed to. Take a look yourself.

---

Take a quick look at every single screenshot you take with the client, and tell me what they have in common. (hint, it's located bottom left, and you'd have to be blind not to notice it.)

Just because they don't necessarily enforce their ownership of everything that the client generates rigidly, doesn't mean that it's not theirs. Even the config files are their intellectual property. You either weren't paying attention in beta, or didn't play, but they have, in the past, enforced stricter usage rules of that content.

There is nothing that this game client creates that you own. And rightly so, you didn't make it. Go and read the EULA.

Inb4 the lock

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Velox

Inb4 the lock

---

http://i.imgur.com/18QyN.gif

TIL Parsers will still go about their business and white knighters have more fuel to report everything in sight.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amberyl

Take a quick look at every single screenshot you take with the client, and tell me what they have in common. (hint, it's located bottom left, and you'd have to be blind not to notice it.)

Just because they don't necessarily enforce their ownership of everything that the client generates rigidly, doesn't mean that it's not theirs. Even the config files are their intellectual property. You either weren't paying attention in beta, or didn't play, but they have, in the past, enforced stricter usage rules of that content.

There is nothing that this game client creates that you own. And rightly so, you didn't make it. Go and read the EULA.

---

I have. And I'll post this:

Quote:

---

The manor sentry takes 84
(+22%) damage.
gains the effect of Greased Lightning.
moves into Opo-opo Form.
uses Heavy Swing.
The manor sentry takes 42 damage.
The manor sentry casts Stone.
takes 114 damage.
The manor sentry begins casting Stone.
hits the manor sentry for 45 damage.
You cast Stone II.
The manor sentry takes 144 damage.
uses Maim.
The manor sentry takes 54
(+47%) damage.
gains the effect of Maim.
gains the effect of Wrath III.

---

That is taken straight out of a logfile (with names taken out). Feel free to report that for breaking the EULA. If it gets removed, you're right. If not, then you're wrong. Point being. We can view this stuff. Whether it is in notepad, clipboard. Or a spreadsheet.

You'll also notice that info is viewable ingame in the Combat Tab (in fact it is the same exact text). Are we going to get banned for clicking on that too?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaethra

You'll also notice that info is viewable ingame in the Combat Tab (in fact it is the same exact text). Are we going to get banned for clicking on that too?

---

Retroactively or simultaneously using a third party program to view that data and use it to alter the game experience is a bannable offence, yes. Square aren't dicks tho, and aren't about to cut their nose off to spite their face. The more people rant about parsers however, the more likely it is that generation of the logfile will simply disappear one day.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amberyl

...
The more people rant about parsers however, the more likely it is that generation of the logfile will simply disappear one day.

---

Pretty much this. Also, I find it amusing that people are arguing with each other how this is or isn't fair/cheating as is any one of us has any say on the matter. SE has spoken, their decision is made and pretty clear. Smacking each other over the heads with interweb toughguy sticks accomplishes nothing but a decimation of my popcorn supply. *sigh* I need to go buy some more now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tannlore

Pretty much this. Also, I find it amusing that people are arguing with each other how this is or isn't fair/cheating as is any one of us has any say on the matter. SE has spoken, their decision is made and pretty clear. Smacking each other over the heads with interweb toughguy sticks accomplishes nothing but a decimation of my popcorn supply. *sigh* I need to go buy some more now.

---

Yet when addons come about, we will have parsers, your point ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amberyl

Retroactively or simultaneously using a third party program to view that data and use it to alter the game experience is a bannable offence, yes. Square aren't dicks tho, and aren't about to cut their nose off to spite their face. The more people rant about parsers however, the more likely it is that generation of the logfile will simply disappear one day.

---

parsers dont alter the game in any means, thats just your imagination, and really really doubt people like that will go away, they are hear to stay and pretty much the ones that keep end game going, as long as end game exists, they will exist no matter what, also addons are coming, we will see a surge of people and trust me when I say the most downloaded addon will be the parsers on all systems.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amberyl

Retroactively or simultaneously using a third party program to view that data and use it to alter the game experience is a bannable offence, yes. Square aren't dicks tho, and aren't about to cut their nose off to spite their face. The more people rant about parsers however, the more likely it is that generation of the logfile will simply disappear one day.

---

They'd be the first MMO to do it. And to be honest this is the first time I've ever seen anyone place 'log file viewing' up there with cheating. And I've been MMOing since Everquest (with SOE having the strictest policies on that sort of thing, yet still allowing parsers). I doubt they'd disallow it, considering you could parse log files in FFXI.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by raelgun

Yet when addons come about, we will have parsers, your point ?

---

And tell me, my dear, who will allow those addons? Blizzard? NCSoft? Bethesda?

Maybe... I dunno.. SE? Why yes!

Wait.. wait.. doesn't.. SE have.. control of the ToS?

Yes they do!!

Now wait for it... wait for it..... Here it comes...

SE who has now spoken about the matter.. will THEN speak about it AGAIN!

OMG? Who would have thought such a thing could ever happen! :D

Also, Yoshi-P said no parsers in the add-on system in a Interview article. I'll go look it up and post it for you. The add-ons will basically be changes to the HUD pretty much. But don't get your hopes up there.. but who knows, maybe they'll change their minds.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tannlore

Also, I find it amusing that people are arguing with each other how this is or isn't fair/cheating as if any one of us has any say on the matter.

---

This.

I've been in development for over a decade, and a not insignificant part of that time has been spent attempting to address the disruption caused by idiots like this, who believe that their ability to alter something to their own liking is justification enough for doing so. It's pure short-sightedness and self-entitlement, and can have a direct, very damaging result on the financial viability of a product under the right conditions. Sadly, once you lax up in one area, you open the door to everything else, legally.

Every time someone uses a parser as an excuse for illegitimately kick-voting another player from an instance, the chances of that tool being allowed to exist diminish greatly. The first rule of fightclub, after all, is the most important.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tannlore

Also, Yoshi-P said no parsers in the add-on system in a Interview article. I'll go look it up and post it for you. The add-ons will basically be changes to the HUD pretty much. But don't get your hopes up there.. but who knows, maybe they'll change their minds.

---

Actually yoshi said it was fine, he doesnt mind at all if we had addons that displayed more information that we could see, now you are just sprouting crap.

The addons do have to go through SE, but this is mainly if the addons actually break the client in itself, such as using too much memory, you have hopeful thinking :), many people have read the article saying the addons can display more information like parsing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaethra

They'd be the first MMO to do it.

---

Valve were the first company to insert across-the-board installed DRM into their software. Guess what, it's now considered a feature, and Steam is the one of the biggest online distribution networks in existence.

Enforcing draconian client control is easily sellable as a feature, when a considerable portion of that software's playerbase is locked into a wall-garden operating system, and doesn't have access to those aspects of the client to begin with.

Don't push it. You never know what you'll get in return.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amberyl

This.

I've been in development for over a decade, and a not insignificant part of that time has been spent attempting to address the disruption caused by idiots like this, who believe that their ability to alter something to their own liking is justification enough for doing so. It's pure short-sightedness and self-entitlement, and can have a direct, very damaging result on the financial viability of a product under the right conditions. Sadly, once you lax up in one area, you open the door to everything else, legally.

Every time someone uses a parser as an excuse for illegitimately kick-voting another player from an instance, the chances of that tool being allowed to exist diminish greatly.

---

Strange that the most successful mmo and other mmos that are doing fine have parsers, surely someone whos worked in development for over a decade should know this, and yet those games are still running, care to explain that ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by raelgun

Actually yoshi said it was fine, he doesnt mind at all if we had addons that displayed more information that we could see, now you are just sprouting crap.

---

Old, out of date quote that has been surperseeded by policy statements that have been made since.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by raelgun

Strange that the most successful mmo and other mmos that are doing fine have parsers, surely someone whos worked in development for over a decade should know this, and yet those games are still running, care to explain that ?

---

I wasn't aware that you were privy to Square's design document? If, in contrast to every other MMO company on the market, Square make a decision and run with it, who are you or I to question it. See the earlier post about Valve.

You are not Square. Stop presuming you can overrule their policy statements at will.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amberyl

Valve were the first company to insert across-the-board installed DRM into their software. Guess what, it's now considered a feature, and

Enforcing draconian client control is easily sellable as a feature, when a considerable portion of that software's playerbase is locked into a wall-garden operating system, and doesn't have access to those aspects of the client to begin with.

---

Gotta actually say lot of false info here, though steam has DRM, you can actually play most of their games offline, not only that, the way the games are played apart from ubisoft games, you couldnt tell there was any drm to begin with, it doesnt actually restrict you, oh, also, you can actually modify those game files to enhance your experience in the INI files to unlock the FPS caps, increase fidelity, also have you played skyrim? You are free to do what you want in the games youve bought with heavy editing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by raelgun

Actually yoshi said it was fine, he doesnt mind at all if we had addons that displayed more information that we could see, now you are just sprouting crap.

The addons do have to go through SE, but this is mainly if the addons actually break the client in itself, such as using too much memory, you have hopeful thinking :), many people have read the article saying the addons can display more information like parsing.

---

Spouting my dear, not spRouting. I am not growing anything.

I noticed you completely disregarded my entire direct statement at the sheer asinine nature of your pointless statement to me earlier. Now who is spouting "crap"?

And to not be caught in my own statement. You are correct! I reread the article and that is true. Here's the link for people: http://www.playerattack.com/news/201...-realm-reborn/

Though I suspect with the way things are going, you will not see any sanctioned parsers. That is pure conjecture on my part though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amberyl

Old, out of date quote that has been surperseeded by policy statements that have been made since.

---

actually that article is quite recent, and you might notice we dont have addons released yet, the article was questioning specifically about addons, yet yoshi still said he has no problem, through addons that the playerbase can see more information, please keep upto date on his interviews.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by raelgun

actually that article is quite recent, and you might notice we dont have addons released yet, the article was questioning specifically about addons, yet yoshi still said he has no problem, through addons that the playerbase can see more information, please keep upto date on his interviews.

---

I imagine the real final word would come at Fan Fest during the Q&A panel. I wonder how many hearts will soar or crash based on delicious tidbits of information they will cryptically handout that day.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amberyl

Don't push it. You never know what you'll get in return.

---

I already have. I used notepad, chrome, and these forums to parse the data I placed in quotes above.

And using DRM in the argument is really grasping at straws. You have anything else? I'm posting facts based on Parsing and SE and MMOs. I'm not getting any counter facts in return.