PVP Wintrade Exploitation, is this reportable?

Well, elo-like ranking is the greatest thing I can see on pvp rankings, that is a dream made true if I see that.
People needs be prepared to rank downgrading too :)

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

Well, elo-like ranking is the greatest thing I can see on pvp rankings, that is a dream made true if I see that.
People needs be prepared to rank downgrading too :)

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I played League of Legends for a while before 2.0 and... yeah, i can imagine it... *nightmares*

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

Then, about supporting wintrade because PvP in its actual state does not fit your expectations, does not makes any sense at all. Things I don't like, means I can freely cheat on? Pure nonsense.

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Pretty much this.

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Originally Posted by Rhindas

It's probably not technically against the ToS. People do this in WoW to this day, although I vaguely remember a blue post saying it's "Against the spirit of PvP" or some such PR spin.

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Any system that encourages wintrading in something like PVP is a bad system. I'm almost 99% positive Square Enix does not condone the behavior.

They're going to need to implement some kinda system and increase the natural rewards for winning, because they aren't high enough for players to enjoy real matches over fixed ones. If people didn't care about such things, there would be no wintrading.

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

Well, elo-like ranking is the greatest thing I can see on pvp rankings, that is a dream made true if I see that.
People needs be prepared to rank downgrading too :)

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Have you played league of legends?

Elo is terrible for team-oriented gameplay, especially if, like league, you aren't going to factor in important stats in the ranking.

Win or lose, you get pvp xp. So its all in due time. The ques are a pain and you need thousands of matches to even hit rank 40. In an hr i get 2-3 matches.... barely a dent in at rank 18. Why is ranking up in pvp more of a grind then pve? Makes atma fate farm look instant

One of the reasons the queues are so long is because most people win trade instead of queing up for non-group matches.

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Originally Posted by Rhindas

It's probably not technically against the ToS. People do this in WoW to this day, although I vaguely remember a blue post saying it's "Against the spirit of PvP" or some such PR spin.

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http://ctrla.lt/gfx/square_001.JPG

IMO they aren't exploiting the game. The only way I see they can do this is make 2 light party and join the DF at the same time and only accept when the it goes on both ends. Its not that different when you ask a healer/tank to 'join in progress' just to help finish a dungeon or when 2 friends start the roulette at the same time to see if they end up together in a group. BUT if they are using something else (like a bug in the coding) then yes, they are cheating. If only, they are exploiting (as in taking advantage) that not a lot of people are actuallly PvPing, so its easier for them to group together. Well, imo anyway, =P

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Originally Posted by Xandim

IMO they aren't exploiting the game. The only way I see they can do this is make 2 light party and join the DF at the same time and only accept when the it goes on both ends. Its not that different when you ask a healer/tank to 'join in progress' just to help finish a dungeon or when 2 friends start the roulette at the same time to see if they end up together in a group. BUT if they are using something else (like a bug in the coding) then yes, they are cheating. If only, they are exploiting (as in taking advantage) that not a lot of people are actuallly PvPing, so its easier for them to group together. Well, imo anyway, =P

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Maybe you should be more informed when you next decide to share your opinion.

From what I understand they are taking very specific steps to circumvent going up against players other than the people they are trading wins with. Exploiting the programming doesn't mean just bugs or hacks. So all the justification of "its not a hack so its not cheating" is bullcrap. Any other MMO with PvP in their games have policies against win trading. While it can be hard to catch sometimes its still against the rules of their games and go contrary to the spirit of competition.

Anyone that win trades to gain fast Ranks is doing so because they don't want to make the effort in the first place. Its on of the reasons we have so many RMT/Power Leveling spammers in game. Cause lazy bums don't think they should work to get something.

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Originally Posted by Kerowyn

What you said

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Well, bug in the coding was just an example, but maybe if the PvP wasn't so boring (according to ppl, I could care less for PvP actually) there would be more people doing it, xD

But out of curiosity, what specific steps are these? Sorry if it was explained before =X

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Originally Posted by Xandim

Well, bug in the coding was just an example, but maybe if the PvP wasn't so boring (according to ppl, I could care less for PvP actually) there would be more people doing it, xD

But out of curiosity, what specific steps are these? Sorry if it was explained before =X

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Steps are:
1. Get two parties
2. Queue at same time
3. ????
4. Profit

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Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

Steps are:
1. Get two parties
2. Queue at same time
3. ????
4. Profit

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All must wear a Goblin mask too.

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Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

Steps are:
1. Get two parties
2. Queue at same time
3. ????
4. Profit

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Thats the only way I could think ppl could win trade, but then someone came and said that I should research before I say anything... Well, if there are other methods, maybe PvP should be more fun (so more ppl would do it in the first place) to begin with too =P

PS: I'd love to get those clothes just for glamour, maybe SE should make them craftable lv1 w/o any status? xD

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Originally Posted by Xandim

Thats the only way I could think ppl could win trade, but then someone came and said that I should research before I say anything... Well, if there are other methods, maybe PvP should be more fun (so more ppl would do it in the first place) to begin with too =P

PS: I'd love to get those clothes just for glamour, maybe SE should make them craftable lv1 w/o any status? xD

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PVP is fun.

Ok so you want to talk about the steps to circumvent going up against other teams? Well before when I played WoW when I was in a big PvP Centered Guild we used to set up Practice Skirmishes by que'ing up on vent with the second team. If both teams got a queue pop at the same time 1 person from each team would take the queue to scout the game. If the scouts saw each other the rest of both teams went in and we had our skirmish.

In FFXIV its very similar all though in FFXIV win traders can further increase the chance to meet each other. Its as easy as selecting only ONE language. Both teams exclude all but one of the languages and then do what I described above. Don't know if there is a Lock Out for leaving a match in FFXIV but if there isn't then the scouts just leave and both teams queue up again.

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Originally Posted by Kerowyn

What you said

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Yeah, I tought it would be something like that. But if more people were into PvP, that would be harder to happen too, I think.... =P
PS: Don't wanna get you in trouble for 'possibly' telling others about how to exploit something, so if you wanna edit, feel free to do it :)

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Originally Posted by Logo

PVP is fun.

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I can only paraphrase people, since idc much about pvp at all, but like 8 out of 10 of my friends say that PvP is fun, but not quite as fun as they tought it would be. The other 2 just like PvP in whatever form it comes, xD

Well... its a fine line I guess. I dont see much of a problem with that since they aren't breaking any rules, its not like its something so ground breaking like buging coil bosses so you can face roll them. I guess its more of a problem to PvPers since it affects them specifically, not the community as a whole.

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Originally Posted by Xandim

But if more people were into PvP, that would be harder to happen too, I think.... =P

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Actually with MORE people and faster queue times it wont make much of a difference. The reason why is cause the 2 teams are queue'ing at the same time would use the 2 scouts I mentioned above. Remember Win Traders aren't queue'ing up to fight others for long fights. They do it so that they can get the most out of the least effort/time as possible. So even if more people are doing pvp they can still avoid other teams.

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Originally Posted by Kerowyn

Actually with MORE people and faster queue times it wont make much of a difference. The reason why is cause the 2 teams are queue'ing at the same time would use the 2 scouts I mentioned above. Remember Win Traders aren't queue'ing up to fight others for long fights. They do it so that they can get the most out of the least effort/time as possible. So even if more people are doing pvp they can still avoid other teams.

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The thing is people don't have to throw the match, they could just want to queue against some FC members for fun and have some fair fights w/o gear and get seals in the process. There's no telling what people do in the matches since unless you were in one yourself, you wouldn't know. Moreover what is just explained isn't against the rules, morale or the Terms of Service. It's playing a game for fun (you know the point of games).

Ya know whats funny?

A friend power levels a friend through a crafting class and nobody bats an eye.

A few friends decide to help eachother get pvp vanity gear and everyone loses thier minds.

just want to make some facts about wintrading straight

- matchmaking is based of average rank, meaning, if you have 2 parties 1-1-1-1 and 30-30-30-30, you wont get matched together, or maybe yes but after a lot of hours, if you make it 1-1-30-30 and 1-1-30-30 you get insta pop
- languages matters but average rank is much more important
- rank is just indicator of how much time/effort said individual put into pvp, nothing more nothing less, no skill what soever
- for ppl which are saying they are not putting effort into it, well they are putting more effort and time into it then ppl which get like 70% of wins as they have to coordinate 2 parties and gets to play much more matches as their win ratio is 50%
- if there would be insta pop for pvp, noone would bother with wintrading as it takes a while to set up 2 parties, if ppl could insta pop and farm even by constantly dying they would do it, and lets be honest here, even if you play half afk you can get to like 40% win ratio
- the only difference now is "pvpers" are not geting insta pops and cant steam roll half afk ppl in pvp and go "trololo /laugh" on them, well maybe thats the reason why they are upset who knows XD

When PVP first came out, ques were much faster. Just recently people started wintrading?

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Originally Posted by Lumidus

When PVP first came out, ques were much faster. Just recently people started wintrading?

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yes... technically

this is how i see it
- pvp is introduced, a lot of ppl start to farm it
- most of those who get r30 leave pvp
- "new" players are getting farmed by r30 and leave pvp
- rest of pvp ppl leave, like only 2 grps left there
- 2.2 hits with glamours and changed queues and no "good" vanity from pvp as ilvl90 is "just foestriker/darklight/etc" -> ill farm/craft it elsewhere
- result is, guys who wanted to try it after 2.2 have long queues as there are only bunch of r30 and noone else -> leave right again
- 2.25 hits with new ranks and glamours everyone wants it, but queues are ridiculous, some ppl try it > wait for hour > get steam rolled by r30 > leave
- ppl look at 2.2 patch notes where SE basically gave a "wintrading manual"

patch notes 2.2:
Players of similar PvP ranking will now be prioritized when queuing for the Wolves' Den.
* The target range will increase over time if suitable players cannot be found.

- this can be translated into ... if you make 2 grps with nearly same average you get instapop, otherwise you will have to wait some time "X" (half an hour? one hour?) and then get matched againts those few r30 trying to pvp or whatever is available
- ppl follow manual provided by SE to wintrade r40 and get glamours
- pvpers not getting insta pops rages on XD

This is how I think it should be:

1 Mark / 0 XP base reward
Win: + 60 mark / +100 XP
Each action you take grants .25 Marks/.25XP
If you kill someone you get a modifier of 1.4x on your action bonus (max 2.2)
For each 1,000 damage you get a 1.05 modifier on your action bonus (max 2.0)
For each 2,500 damage you heal you get a 1.05x modifier on your action bonus (max 2.0)

Also:
If match ends in 1:59 or less : 1x Modifier on action bonus
If match ends in 2:59 or less : .95 Modifier on action bonus
If match ends in 3:59 or less : .85 Modifier on action bonus
If match ends in 4:59 or less : .7 Modifier on action bonus
If match ends in 7:59 or less : .6 Modifier on action bonus
If match ends in 8:00 or more : .4 modifier on action bonus
Any action take after 8:00 grants 0 action bonus


This way, if you AFK you get basically nothing, and if you try to sit in the instance for too long trading blows and letting the healers heal the crap out of you, your rewards dwindle to very low amounts.

A Typical win that lasts about 2:45 with 50 actions and 2 kills, would look like this:

Base
Match Bonus:

1 | 0

Win Bonus:

60 | 100

Base Rewards:

61 | 100

Bonus
Action Bonus (50):

12.5 | 12.5

Kill Modifier (2):

1.8x

Damage Modifier (11,000):

1.55x

Match Time Modifier (2:45):

.95

Total:

85 | 123

Maybe the action bonus is a little low, but I think that for the most part this would motivate people...if you can increase your marks and xp by roughly 50% by putting effort into the battle, and if you can get 1 mark and 0 xp for taking no actions and your team losing, it would stop people from queuing up.

I like your idea of dynamic point allocation/XP gain. However if you tie it to abilities used, some classes are at a disadvantage (namely healers). Most of the battle is me running around, using equanimity inside my prism (which case I'm not taking any actions but just suppressing damage), and trying to avoid players. I probably use significantly fewer actions than, say, a DPS who should be constantly casting an action.

Also it wouldn't help for healers to just spam actions since they'd be easy targets at that point. When you are casting you are a sitting duck and any damage will interrupt it, so it is not beneficial to just attempt to cast at every second, there is a lot of placement and timing for being a healer.

I do think it should be tied to a few personal factors though, as well as team statistics. For healers it could be healing done, dps damage, and tank taking damage. For a group it could be more points if there are fewer KO's in the game

(Second post I got character capped)

I'm sure there's the ability to add more personal or team points depending on how you personally and the other player do, instead of this somewhat constant factor. I feel like this is not really well done across all MMOs, WoW itself doesn't even have a good method for this, you get more honor for kills in range, or landing a killing blow, but this really isn't beneficial for a healer.

If there is the ability to get more points based on how you do personally, I think that people would try harder and it would also eliminate win-trading since just steamrolling another group that doesn't attack back wouldn't give many points.

Jeez... the majority of people win trading are doing it to specifically glamour PvE gear. You will, most likely, never see these people in actual pvp combat and if you do they'll get owned anyways because they won't know the current strategies people employ to win at pvp, or how to defend against them.

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Originally Posted by NyneAlexander

Jeez... the majority of people win trading are doing it to specifically glamour PvE gear. You will, most likely, never see these people in actual pvp combat and if you do they'll get owned anyways because they won't know the current strategies people employ to win at pvp, or how to defend against them.

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No excuse. So, would you say it's ok for non raiders to cheat their way through coil 2 if they only wanted high allagan for glamor too? I mean cheat as in mobs don't attack, as win traders dont when its their turn to lose.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

No excuse. So, would you say it's ok for non raiders to cheat their way through coil 2 if they only wanted high allagan for glamor too? I mean cheat as in mobs don't attack, as win traders dont when its their turn to lose.

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you can not compare pvp and pve like that, because it is something completely different
lets look at your coil 2 from the pvp perspective:
im non raider, i want the coil 2 gear, what do i do ?
1. cheat my way through and risk ban ?
2. or just run in there, die several times and get the loot without risking anything ?
i would go with 2 :P

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

No excuse. So, would you say it's ok for non raiders to cheat their way through coil 2 if they only wanted high allagan for glamor too? I mean cheat as in mobs don't attack, as win traders dont when its their turn to lose.

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Apples and Oranges. Namely because its not like you can ask a PvE mob like The Avatar to set up a T8 run where he just lets you win. In your example, you would have to employ some sort of bug or outside 3rd party program to get the mob to cooperate with your goal.

2nd, the gear you win from PvE encounters directly affects more PvE encounters. PVP gear does not. For your example to work, you would have to be able to glamour PvE gear in PvP, which is currently impossible.

The thread where i asked SE to stop allowing win-trading got deleted. I have no idea why. Does that mean that win-trading is -not- against ToS and perfectly allowable? I seriously don't get why they can't just clear it up.

Why is it so difficult to let people know what is, and what isn't an exploit.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

The thread where i asked SE to stop allowing win-trading got deleted ... I seriously don't get why they can't just clear it up.

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Sounds like they just did. /rimshot

it probably got deleted to avoid redundancy because of this existing thread.

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Originally Posted by NyneAlexander

2nd, the gear you win from PvE encounters directly affects more PvE encounters. PVP gear does not. For your example to work, you would have to be able to glamour PvE gear in PvP, which is currently impossible.

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But it DOES affect PvP! Thats why it's a reward for PvP with PvP stats. PvE gear is outweighed in PvP because of morale. I used an extreme example to counter what self entitled players think they should be able to do to obtain PvP gear with zero effort. If you don't want to raid, dont expect to get High Allagan, which you can't get by abusing the system . And if you want PvP rewards, PvP! Which you SHOULD NOT be able to abuse the system to obtain either.

it got deleted cause no1curr that you can't find a linkshell to play with.

win trading or not, a linkshell and 7 other people to play with will slice your time in half, probably more than half. people have done it by this method and are accused by people whom are much like yourself, clueless, OP.

the people on this forum saying anyone with i100 is a win trader quite frankly, make my head hurt. moreso the ones claiming that they'll report anyone with i100, or straight up call them out. who are you to say these things? lol

the patch for this has been out for a while, remember that. solo queueing is not nor never was the way to level in pvp.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

But it DOES affect PvP! Thats why it's a reward for PvP with PvP stats. PvE gear is outweighed in PvP because of morale. I used an extreme example to counter what self entitled players think they should be able to do to obtain PvP gear with zero effort. If you don't want to raid, dont expect to get High Allagan, which you can't get by abusing the system . And if you want PvP rewards, PvP! Which you SHOULD NOT be able to abuse the system to obtain either.

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Again, it only affects PVP if those players who are win trading are doing it to further bolster their pvp gears. Most are not. They are doing it for glamours.

And c'mon, you could also game the system just by going into a random pvp match and losing on purpose. YOU GET POINTS FOR LOSING AND WINNING. That, in fact, takes less effort than finding 7 other people and win trading. So how exactly is someone self entitled? Because you can just as easily give ZERO EFFORT the legit way and still gain rank, gears, etc.

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Originally Posted by Histoire

it got deleted cause no1curr that you can't find a linkshell to play with.

win trading or not, a linkshell and 7 other people to play with will slice your time in half, probably more than half. people have done it by this method and are accused by people whom are much like yourself, clueless, OP.

the people on this forum saying anyone with i100 is a win trader quite frankly, make my head hurt. moreso the ones claiming that they'll report anyone with i100, or straight up call them out. who are you to say these things? lol the patch for this has been out for a while, remember that. solo queueing is not nor never was the way to level in pvp.

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1. i have no issue with ppl entering with ls and FIGHTING. i have an issue with ppl "insta-dying." If you want to play with friends and no one else is queueing, no problem. But if you are win-trading (e.g. team b dies without a fight, team a dies without a fight, team b dies without a fight, team a dies without a fight) that is pure exploitation. There have been party finder groups on our server for win-trading.

2. no one is accusing people. I know ppl from balmung who pvp nearly all day and have a lot of the i100 gear. And I'm happy for them (at least when they are being nice about me getting 2shotted by tanks with i100). But there are people in other threads who basically admitted to win-trading because "pvp sucks" (including the deleted thread)

I don't see how anyone can justify trading instant deaths to rank up. Why even bother with PvP then?

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Originally Posted by Histoire

solo queueing is not nor never was the way to level in pvp.

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why ? with enough ppl in pvp there is no diference if you solo or party queue, rewards are same and time is same too.

and Sapphic stop comparing pvp to pve, if you die like 100 times in coil6 you have totaly 0 drops, if you do that in pvp you lvl up and get some gear, thats the main difference. Everyone will have that gear even ppl that put no effort to get it. In pve even with echo you cant pass encounters afk cuz echo dont negate boss mechanics, you have to put some effort to get gear and go to higher content.

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Originally Posted by Snorgrind

why ? with enough ppl in pvp there is no diference if you solo or party queue, rewards are same and time is same too.

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9 times out of 10 you will wait between 5 and 188 minutes (my longest thus far) in a solo queue.

with 7 other people and knowledge of how the recently added match making system works, it is instant, you can set your own rules. I know of linkshells that forbid pvp skill usage, some that only use pve gear, blah blah. there are ways to level and have fun quickly, but people would sooner tunnel vision the people simply grinding for vanity and make a huge deal out of something that really, is not a huge deal.

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Originally Posted by Snorgrind

why ? with enough ppl in pvp there is no diference if you solo or party queue, rewards are same and time is same too.

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Actually, solo queue (assuming you win) nets you 100% rewards, while grouping only gets you 50%. As with most of XIV (that isn't "hardcore" endgame), Yoshida would rather you play with completely random people for better rewards than enjoy the game with friends. I call it the Enjoyment Tax, enjoying the game with friends halves your progress in PvP, removes DR rewards from the game, and so on.