Honestly, let SE make as much money as they can.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zwipe

Regardless of my example, bottom line is people want extra retainers, but don't want to pay for it.

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But we ARE paying for it.
We pay a subscription every month. We shouldn't pay more to get the full game experience.

It's not about being cheap. $2 a month isn't that big of a deal, it's the principle behind it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KhalidTheGreat

But we ARE paying for it.
We pay a subscription every month. We shouldn't pay more to get the full game experience.

It's not about being cheap. $2 a month isn't that big of a deal, it's the principle behind it.

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You won't have the slightest bit of a difference in your experience with less retainers. Nobody needs more than 2 retainers. If you are one of the people who want to save every single item you get in the game, fine, then pay for the convenience. FFXI had you pay for extra characters, which you used as storage. You can ALREADY do this on FFXIV too. Now if you would want to you could simply swap to the 1 character per server + retainers option.

The items that you can get from the venturing system will NOT be game breaking, and anyone without 8 retainers will not in any way be at a disadvantage.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kat_Manx

You won't have the slightest bit of a difference in your experience with less retainers. Nobody needs more than 2 retainers. If you are one of the people who want to save every single item you get in the game, fine, then pay for the convenience. FFXI had you pay for extra characters, which you used as storage. You can ALREADY do this on FFXIV too. Now if you would want to you could simply swap to the 1 character per server + retainers option.

The items that you can get from the venturing system will NOT be game breaking, and anyone without 8 retainers will not in any way be at a disadvantage.

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Well, you seems so sure about the venturing system--I wonder why. Got the inside scoop or something? We hardly know anything about the venturing system, and it is still to early to tell whether it will be "game breaking" or not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KhalidTheGreat

But we ARE paying for it.
We pay a subscription every month. We shouldn't pay more to get the full game experience.

It's not about being cheap. $2 a month isn't that big of a deal, it's the principle behind it.

---

You ARE getting the full game experience with the subscription. The 2 dollar retainers are EXTRA. (would you like some dessert?) It's not a hard concept to grasp.

and the issue is 100% about being cheap....all this principle garbage is coming from conspiracy theorists and cheapos over-analyzing a simple up-sell.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zwipe

You ARE getting the full game experience with the subscription. The 2 dollar retainers are EXTRA. (would you like some dessert?) It not a hard concept to grasp.

and the issue is 100% about being cheap....all this principle garbage is coming from conspiracy theorists and cheapos over-analyzing a simple up-sell.

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If you really think it's just about being cheap, you're the one failing to grasp the other side of the argument here.

Some people simply dislike having cash shop style incentives thrown at them, creating a "pay more, get more" mentality within the game. It's one of the reasons that many choose to avoid free games, because they dislike playing a game with pay wall restrictions that they must either choose to shell out extra for or go without. These "extra" retainers are the same type of simplistic pay wall restriction we see in free to play games, except in this case people are paying a monthly subscription for the privilege of being nickel and dimed with those pay walls. You can disagree with that sentiment if you want to, but acting like people against this type of transaction in a pay to play game are either cheapos or "conspiracy theorists" (wherever you got that from) is just being willfully ignorant.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kat_Manx

Stuff

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Yes there will be a difference.
Now crafters/gatherers will be forced to pay the extra money to get more retainers.

I myself for example only have 50 MIN / 50 GSM and only just started leveling ARM. And even with only these 3 classes I have almost 2 full retainers. I was waiting for 2.2 to get an extra retainer (as I understood). Now I have to pay more to get it.

And that's just me. What about player with all 50 crafting / gathering classes? It's unquestionable that they need to pay more. It's not an option anymore.

And if you choose not to pay, then it WILL affect your experience in the game. People with extra retainers will have an easier more convenient access to crafting material / food / potions etc. while the rest will have to discard / sell and re-purchase them to keep some space in the retainer.

I want to write more about this but I feel like I just wrote a big wall of text that no one will read :/

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Originally Posted by KhalidTheGreat

text

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as a person who have 4 crafter lvl 50 and the rest are 40+, I can say that I am not FORCE to buy more retainer to keep all my mats. 1 retainer is enough to keep all the main mats (assume that you dont keep unrefine & low lvl crappy materials) for all craft but dont you dare to stock up on CUL and ALC >.<

and I will buy retainer & I am happy that SE add retainer service because this is my issue: Why I need more retainer, and this is something I choice to do, SE do not force me to get more retainer or anything

And, lets not comment about the venture system, it is not like we know much about the system but the few pic and basic information they tell us. Why ppl have to make assumtion & then complain about a system they have never try

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KhalidTheGreat

But we ARE paying for it.
We pay a subscription every month. We shouldn't pay more to get the full game experience.

It's not about being cheap. $2 a month isn't that big of a deal, it's the principle behind it.

---

If you rent server space for $12.99 a month and after 6 months, the company upgrades its network to spanking new fire optics but you're on their old slower network and to move to the new network you gotta pay $2 more a month, do you go up in arms saying that you've paid a monthly fee and therefore you demand the full experience?

What if i tell you that the sub you are paying is for the full game content of 2.0 and all additional content patches are given free to you out of goodwill; And assume for a moment that extra retainers wasn't part of their roadmap, wasn't a feature their original budgeting included and was only made possible via the forecasted extra revenue from its sale.

Then assume for another moment that every single time a new patch gets added, your monthly sub goes up but you'll have everything included, will you be unhappy? if you are, why? the value of the product has increased but you're not open to paying more for it?

so now, is it really that bad that you pay the same monthly sub for a product that constantly increases its value every 3 months? is it really that bad that they are charging $2 for optional retainers?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gextiv

Well, you seems so sure about the venturing system--I wonder why. Got the inside scoop or something? We hardly know anything about the venturing system, and it is still to early to tell whether it will be "game breaking" or not.

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I've heard that the venturing system allows your retainer to run T6-9 and Leviathan for you!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KhalidTheGreat

Yes there will be a difference.
Now crafters/gatherers will be forced to pay the extra money to get more retainers.

I myself for example only have 50 MIN / 50 GSM and only just started leveling ARM. And even with only these 3 classes I have almost 2 full retainers. I was waiting for 2.2 to get an extra retainer (as I understood). Now I have to pay more to get it.

And that's just me. What about player with all 50 crafting / gathering classes? It's unquestionable that they need to pay more. It's not an option anymore.

And if you choose not to pay, then it WILL affect your experience in the game. People with extra retainers will have an easier more convenient access to crafting material / food / potions etc. while the rest will have to discard / sell and re-purchase them to keep some space in the retainer.

I want to write more about this but I feel like I just wrote a big wall of text that no one will read :/

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those with all 50 crafting classes do not "unquestionably need" The extra retainers, assume for a moment that extra retainers was never implemented, are these full 50 crafters gonna just up and quit cause there aren't extra retainers?

No one "have" to get the extra retainers, they simply "want" the extra retainers, there is a clear and distinct difference.

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Originally Posted by Shneibel

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Well, good for you.
But that doesn't change the fact that lots of people are struggling to keep some space without losing some of their wanted items.

I have 4 crafting jobs at 50, one gathering job at 50 and about 5 jobs I level up here and there. My inventory uses 2 rows out of the first page of items, and my retainer currently holds 7 items.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KhalidTheGreat

Well, good for you.
But that doesn't change the fact that lots of people are struggling to keep some space without losing some of their wanted items.

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if they keep all the low lvl mats that that they "might-use-one-day" then yes, they will have issue.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ReiszRie

those with all 50 crafting classes do not "unquestionably need" The extra retainers, assume for a moment that extra retainers was never implemented, are these full 50 crafters gonna just up and quit cause there aren't extra retainers?

No one "have" to get the extra retainers, they simply "want" the extra retainers, there is a clear and distinct difference.

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Just like in f2p games, you don't have to buy that OP gear set to finish some quest or buy some crystals that give you a buff or two.
Or maybe some tools that will restore your weapon if it breaks ..etc.

You actually can -in theory- never need a cash shop ever. But that's not the case is it? What about if they add an item that increases the percentage of loot drops or give you rested exp for a whole week?
You don't have to buy it right? But you probably will. Even though it's still considered optional.

It's the same thing here but at a less noticeable effect.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KhalidTheGreat

But you probably will. Even though it's still considered optional.

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There are ppl who spend 1k-2k$ just for a mount or a vanity clothes in F2p and there are ppl who farm their money ingame and buy those items from other player.

In the end it is optional for most f2p and so is the retainer service in here too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KhalidTheGreat

Just like in f2p games, you don't have to buy that OP gear set to finish some quest or buy some crystals that give you a buff or two.
Or maybe some tools that will restore your weapon if it breaks ..etc.

You actually can -in theory- never need a cash shop ever. But that's not the case is it? What about if they add an item that increases the percentage of loot drops or give you rested exp for a whole week?
You don't have to buy it right? But you probably will. Even though it's still considered optional.

It's the same thing here but at a less noticeable effect.

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extra retainers are for a slight increase in convenience and does not affect core gameplay, the examples you gave made it necessary to purchase cash shop item if you wish to have any hope completing content, the same obviously isn't true with retainers

those examples you gave made it that players 'need' to purchase them.

P2P has never guaranteed that every single optional feature will be entirely free, P2P MMOs simply have a track record of frequent and larger content patches over its F2P counterparts

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ReiszRie

What if i tell you that the sub you are paying is for the full game content of 2.0 and all additional content patches are given free to you out of goodwill; ?

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Could you please tell us where you got that piece of information from?

Are you suggesting that we should pay $2 more with every new feature?
Or at least with every new patch?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KhalidTheGreat

Could you please tell us where you got that piece of information from?

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if you plan to troll, you might as well end it here. The information is way way back then, it is no longer a news or something surpise for most ppl but I guess, I was wrong

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KhalidTheGreat

Could you please tell us where you got that piece of information from?

Are you suggesting that we should pay $2 more with every new feature?
Or at least with every new patch?

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Perhaps you can quote my entire post to have some context.

and if you want something that clearly is optional, i don't see the problem with being expected to pay for it. You want extra fries? pay more for a large one.

Your fallacy is the assumption that your base $12.99 per month guarantees all feature and content till the end of FFXIV's lifetime

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shneibel

There are ppl who spend 1k-2k$ just for a mount or a vanity clothes in F2p and there are ppl who farm their money ingame and buy those items from other player.

In the end it is optional for most f2p and so is the retainer service in here too.

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So as I understand you dont have any problem with cash shops?
Then you're not defending this retainer issue because it's not like f2p shops. It's because you don't mind the idea of them in the first place.

If that's the case then I respect your opinion, but I disagree.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shneibel

if you plan to troll, you might as well end it here. The information is way way back then, it is no longer a news or something surpise for most ppl but I guess, I was wrong

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I'm not trolling. If you know something I don't then please enlighten me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KhalidTheGreat

So as I understand you dont have any problem with cash shops?
Then you're not defending this retainer issue because it's not like f2p shops. It's because you don't mind the idea of them in the first place.

If that's the case then I respect your opinion, but I disagree.

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if you go back a few page, I already stop write comment about Vanity Market (this is cash shop) because other ppl already explain their point of view about why there should not be Vannity Market in the game and I agree with their point.

From my point of view, the retainer is a service just like Fantasia or server transfer. So I dont know how you can view it as cash shop

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KhalidTheGreat

I'm not trolling. If you know something I don't then please enlighten me.

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you dont pay for expansion

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ReiszRie

extra retainers are for a slight increase in convenience and does not affect core gameplay, the examples you gave made it necessary to purchase cash shop item if you wish to have any hope completing content, the same obviously isn't true with retainers

those examples you gave made it that players 'need' to purchase them.
counterparts

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Slight as it might be, it's still the of the same principle.

And the examples aren't necessary to purchase. You could actually keep going without them. But they make it more convenient the other way till you think "wth, i'll just buy the set and get done with it".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Beetle

Retainers aren't really needed. We only got 1 in 1.0 and only had 50 slots or something at the start.
They should just drop 2nd retainers and just make 1 retainer hold 200 items, sell 40 items, 1 venture option.
If people just need more space toss out your junk or sell it. Most of your crafting mats only go for 10~50gil each anyway.
Your Armor bag is enough space for all your jobs you play for gear. SE just need toget on top of storage stuff for events also.
Also make features to burn through old useless pieces of gear. SB Primal Weapons, Dungeon Gear, etc..

Name change should be free & always option when changing to another server. No need to create another character for it anymore...
Name changes to same server will lead to problems of people that have been ousted by the players on that server.

Fantasia should only be 2.99/4.99. If any higher I wouldnt buy them.

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The retainer idea is pretty good, I like having 2, but I if I could have just one with all the space of two, it would be great. Only issue I have with retainers is the fact that so much event stuff has to take up retainer space until they patch it in so you can put it into the armoire. I'm always worried another event will come out and I won't be able to collect the stuff like the hoarder I am, because I won't have the space to put it in a retainer until a patch update allows it into the armoire.

Also, I'd hate to have to discard some of my collected gear like darklight or CT because theres no room anywhere for it.

This game is definately not collector friendly.

Also, if they do start to charge for fantasia, you can betcha it'll probably be 10-15 bucks, if not 20-25 bucks. 3-5 bucks would be nice but then every joe whose got 20 bucks they want to burn would be buying a fantasia in bundles and changing their appearance willy nilly at every turn.

It might sound like good money making, but it'll probably bring more headache than they want. I could be wrong though, you can never tell what they are gonna do next.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shneibel

if you go back a few page, I already stop write comment about Vanity Market (this is cash shop) because other ppl already explain their point of view about why there should not be Vannity Market in the game and I agree with their point.

From my point of view, the retainer is a service just like Fantasia or server transfer. So I dont know how you can view it as cash shop

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The retainer is an in-game privilege over others.

The server transfer IS a service and I agree with you with this point.

The fantasia potion in my opinion shouldn't be a cash shop item. But I there should be restrictions in using them (like only used once every 6 months or so). But That's just my opinion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KhalidTheGreat

Slight as it might be, it's still the of the same principle.

And the examples aren't necessary to purchase. You could actually keep going without them. But they make it more convenient the other way till you think "wth, i'll just buy the set and get done with it".

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So, can i say that your argument against extra retainers are based off principles and not rationale?

those examples you've given are clearly items that falls under the category of need, to elaborate, its basically items that if you do not possess, makes a player suffer a major disadvantage or create immense inconvenience, they are punitive items, items designed to punish players for not having them.

extra retainers are certainly optional, I have 3 crafting classes and TBH, even if extra retainers are given free, I still have no use for them as my current retainers still have sufficient space, there are no "punishment" for not having extra retainers

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KhalidTheGreat

The retainer is an in-game privilege over others.

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it is a privilege that everyone have and they can say yes or no is up to their decision and they can always change the decision they maked, it is not permanent. So it is fair for all

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shneibel

you dont pay for expansion

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So?
I want info that says my sub money is only for 2.0 and not for future patches.

@ReiszRie
But you still can make it without them, right?
Then it's back to optional and not necessary.

@Shneibel
So pay more and get more.
That's not fair unless everyone in the game either have them or dont have them.

Also some might not be able / willing to pay for it.

At the end guys it goes back to this:
Whoever pays more will get a privilege over others in-game.
Little or big, it's still an in-game privilege just because you payed more money.

I mean, I might as well just say that RMT is an optional service that provides a more convenient way to acquire a house.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Susanoh

If you really think it's just about being cheap, you're the one failing to grasp the other side of the argument here....(edited for room)
... paying a subscription...of being nickel and dimed...but acting like people against this type of transaction in a pay to play game are either cheapos or "conspiracy theorists" (wherever you got that from) is just being willfully ignorant.

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you're the conspiracy theorist i'm talking about. over-analyzing. And ignorant the fact that people are being cheap.

FTP games give you a smaller bag and fill it up with needless junk or lockboxes every time you loot a few mobs that you get the "inventory full" sign more often then it should, to the point where it slows down gameplay. That does not happen in this game. You have plenty of storage, and are not being hindered for not having extra retainers. The only way you will run out of storage is if you needlessly hoard.

Does one really need to keep a stack of 99 aldgoat leather "in case they need it" 6 months from now? Are these mats really that hard to come by? Of course not.

If you cannot see that, then you my friend are the one being willfully ignorant.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KhalidTheGreat

So?
I want info that says my sub money is only for 2.0 and not for future patches.

@ReiszRie
But you still can make it without them, right?
Then it's back to optional and not necessary.

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If you had read and taken into account the entirety of my post, you'd have have understood that it was a simply a logical argument meant to point out the fallacy of how a monthly sub does not equate to "you are entitled to everything for free"

We're just going around in circles unless you're legitimately open to the arguments raised and not simply use semantics to form the basis of your rebuttals

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ReiszRie

If you had read and taken into account the entirety of my post, you'd have have understood that it was a simply a logical argument meant to point out the fallacy of how a monthly sub does not equate to "you are entitled to everything for free"

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I get what you're trying to say, I really do.
But for me, everything comes down to the principle.
Maybe now it just retainers but what about the future updates?
What other "optional services" will they add?

I think you see me stuck just on the retainer issue itself but in reality I'm concerned about what it represents, its potential. what might it bring in the future?

Anyway I respect your opinion about this subject, but I guess we agree to disagree.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KhalidTheGreat

text

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Just sit and watch. Atm ppl complain because the pay retainer come with venture, but neither you, I or anyone test the system or even know about it but a pic & a few basic words

if the system is not for your liking after use it, voice up and they ll fix it

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Razzle

#157

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Complain about what ? the venture system that you dont know anything about ? or the "other ppl pay for more inventory slots & I dont like it", or about your own theory of marketing that you claim ?

Sit & wait is a good tactic, you can always voice up when thing goes the wrong way. There is nothing wrong to watch how thing goes after use the system or watch it for a few months before voice up instead of jump the gun

it is true that I will buy the retainer for more space because I collect item, IF i dont collect those item, I will only use 2 page of 1 retainer to carry my mats & dont even need the 2nd retainer

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zwipe

you're the conspiracy theorist i'm talking about. over-analyzing. And ignorant the fact that people are being cheap.

FTP games give you a smaller bag and fill it up with needless junk or lockboxes every time you loot a few mobs that you get the "inventory full" sign more often then it should, to the point where it slows down gameplay. That does not happen in this game. You have plenty of storage, and are not being hindered for not having extra retainers. The only way you will run out of storage is if you needlessly hoard.

Does one really need to keep a stack of 99 aldgoat leather "in case they need it" 6 months from now? Are these mats really that hard to come by? Of course not.

If you cannot see that, then you my friend are the one being willfully ignorant.

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I know of a free to play game that has a separate tab just for crafting storage that allows you to store 250 of every single crafting item in the game "in case you need it 6 months from now" that is available to everyone from day one with no purchases necessary, so this argument that FFXIV is somehow different from "FTP games" as an all encompassing statement is complete bull, for starters.

Not that it makes any difference, because the issue here isn't whether this game's pay wall restrictions are better than a FTP game's pay wall restrictions, but whether you agree with a subscription based game having pay wall restrictions to begin with. If you want to keep saying it's an issue of money and ignore everything else, by all means, go ahead, but there's nothing else left to talk about if you choose not to understand where the other side is coming from.

Oh, and thanks for the laugh calling me a "conspiracy theorist." I'm not sure if that means what you think it means.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shneibel

Just sit and watch. Atm ppl complain because the pay retainer come with venture, but neither you, I or anyone test the system or even know about it but a pic & a few basic words

if the system is not for your liking after use it, voice up and they ll fix it

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I didn't get into the venturing feature.
I think it won't be affected by additional retainers (maybe only 2 of them can venture despite how many you have).

My main issue here is the extra space, That's all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ReiszRie

What if i tell you that the sub you are paying is for the full game content of 2.0 and all additional content patches are given free to you out of goodwill;

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lol... That doesn't make any sense. That'd be true if we payed a price ONCE for 2.0. But that's not the case, we pay for 2.0 CD, and then keep paying MONTHLY, therefore, yes, we do deserve the patches "freely" (they are not actually free as we pay for them monthly.)


Wish you guys were the customers in the company I work at. As a marketing manager I'd probably get max promotions for my success! XD

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ReiszRie

there are no "punishment" for not having extra retainers

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This is keep being said. I think that if as a game dev, I opened a retainer service, and saw that it brings decent cash, I'd make sure to add more items to the game every update, and to require players to need more items, in order to convince them unknowingly to buy the retainer.

It's just how my marketing head would work at that situation, it just seem natural for me to do. Especially because no one will actually think the game changed that way for that reason. (unless they come from marketing branches)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shneibel

Just sit and watch.

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lol... That won't end well, we should start talking about it now, because if we sit, shut up, and pay, that will just be the start of it, a quiet customer that don't complain is a happy one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shneibel

Complain about what ? the venture system that you dont know anything about ? or the "other ppl pay for more inventory slots & I dont like it", or about your own theory of marketing that you claim ?

Sit & wait is a good tactic, you can always voice up when thing goes the wrong way. There is nothing wrong to watch how thing goes after use the system or watch it for a few months before voice up instead of jump the gun

it is true that I will buy the retainer for more space because I collect item, IF i dont collect those item, I will only use 2 page of 1 retainer to carry my mats & dont even need the 2nd retainer

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Um, we do know about the venture system as it was explained. We can complain about what we know.

I don't like people pay for inventory slots? lol... It's your money, Pay all you want, send 999mil to SE too for all I care so IDK what you're talking about...

My marketing "theory" isn't a theory, it would what I would actually do in that case if I was behind the scenes, that'd be reality, because if not that would mean for the company to miss an oppertunity to make more money with least consequences. But for the players it'd affect gameplay. I was just sharing what I would do in that case and why. Didn't apply SE will do it, I just said it is a possibility and that players could never tell if the sheer amount of useless items being added is because of that or not.

"voice up when things go to wrong way" is a bad tactic IMO. This forum is meant to voice up and complain, about things we know, and even expressing our concerns about things we don't. You are free to ignore the complaints and live in a world where everyone think SE is perfect.

I'm voicing my opinions on what I do know, and I'm expressing my concerns and giving my ideas, you're free to ignore it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Felis

- Server Transfer
- Fantasia
- Name Change
- Retainers (because they promised it since 2010)
- Libra Eorzea Apps (checkin retainers, checking market boards and such stuff with the smartphone)

That is all what should be allowed and not more

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Give me a freaking brake!

SquareEnix develops the FFXIV ARR gaming product and service. We all consume this product and service. They may change the product and service as they see fit. We might have some influence over how they make changes to FFXIV, but we certainly do not controll what they are allowed to develop and/or not develop or offer as a service!

If SE wanted to, they could develop and release a patch that would turn the game as we know it upside down. That would more than likely be a bad business decision, so we will probably not see that happen. However, if something like that were to happen, it would and could be done by SE's will... not ours.

Ultimately when it comes down to it, here is our choice as gamers: Consume (play and subscribe) the game or choose not to.

Four dollars a month extra for two more retainers? Yes please! I don't mind paying for small quality of life items that are considered a luxury, if you can't take the hit to the wallet then don't buy it.

I don't know why the personal insults. Meh whatever, some of you guys can't make a civil argument without attaching a personal insult to it.