Patch 2.2, Accessibility, Difficulty Levels, and Throwing Away Content

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

This games problem atm is not that it is new I keep see people say this... the games problem is the core philosophy of content progression we have. It is just a flawed model.

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Actually it is a problem with the users who are gamblers. You know, those who enjoyed FFXI and old MMO design with kill the monster and get 5% chance at drops. These kind of people gladly do 10 hours of the same thing every single day, just because the chance is there. However remove the chance or have something without a reward, and they won't touch it, claiming "it is boring and pointless".

For all intents and purposes most of the people in this thread would enjoy poker more than a MMO. Because they like spending money on a challenge with a small chance at reward.

I am not denying some things could be better, but if the complaints are "I'm unmotivated to play because of the item progression", then you clearly are not enjoying the CONTENT at all.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

Without going into specific MMOs, it is difficult to talk about why certain MMORPGs crash. The biggest problem of the last decade was developers copying WoW's system down to the letter and trying to put a new coat of paint on it. SWTOR was a monumental project with a lot of hope behind it that turned into the colloquially named "Tortanic" due to every aspect of its gameplay being a direct WoW rip off. The real issue though, came after the release, where the developers blamed the quickly bleeding player base on a lack of end game content, when clearly many of the players were leaving before they even reached end game.

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Wow, way to have zero understanding as to why recent MMOs like SWTOR failed. Protip: it didn't fail because it has vertical progression which you seem to be blaming everything on.

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Originally Posted by MasamuneBranford

Solution: Give the ability to play all content under its original conditions and reward an achievement for doing so.

Therefore -5 years from now - If i'm bored, I could gather my friends and enter the original turns 1-5 of BCB and be given the option to remove all echo buffs and be item level capped at ilevel 91.

Such an easy solution to implement that would literally please everybody.

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So ummm, nobody liked my idea? Got zero comments and I feel that it truly would please everyone. It basically would allow you to have a time capsule to replay all the historic battles throughout the life of the MMO.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

Actually it is a problem with the users who are gamblers. You know, those who enjoyed FFXI and old MMO design with kill the monster and get 5% chance at drops. These kind of people gladly do 10 hours of the same thing every single day, just because the chance is there. However remove the chance or have something without a reward, and they won't touch it, claiming "it is boring and pointless".

For all intents and purposes most of the people in this thread would enjoy poker more than a MMO. Because they like spending money on a challenge with a small chance at reward.

I am not denying some things could be better, but if the complaints are "I'm unmotivated to play because of the item progression", then you clearly are not enjoying the CONTENT at all.

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Says the spoiled kiddies who have to have their new shinies right away or they throw a tantrum?

You need to realize of course that the reason most of us (it's a very, very tiny minority of folks who actually enjoyed the sadistic grind and absurdly low drop rates) stuck with XI for long was because it was a quality game, despite its many apparent flaws (was also the 1st MMO a lot of folks including myself ever played. I tried to like WoW and others but hated them all.)

You people need to stop generalizing XI players.

Greetings everyone,

To clarify specifically about dungeon difficulty, as the game progresses, we're planning to offer players the Echo buff to make themselves stronger in order to challenge older content, not necessarily just lowering the difficulty of the dungeon or encounter itself. Also, those who wish to complete the dungeon without assistance may remove the Echo buff.

While there are no plans to give bonuses to those who cleared content before the addition of the Echo buff, we did submit the feedback that some of you had for more horizontal progression on rewards.

Thank you Hvinire, I'm very glad to hear the Echo buff will be optional.

Related, may you please look over this thread & politely ask them to reconsider having no current plans to award pre-Echo/Unlock contenders?

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...se#post1820725

I'm not one to reward elitists or 'hardcores over casuals', but you have to consider... the many, many hours and weeks spent over farming for pieces pre-Echo/Unlock, only to have everything homogenize post-2.2, it can be disheartening for many.

As a fair & equitable compromise, the "rewards" are very miniscule, especially the 'slightly different color palette' one.

Additionally, I know MMO's haven't ever historically done this in the past ("your reward is you get to do the next tier-content sooner than the rest!" or "you already have the gear, why do you care that others now have easy-access to it, get over it!")... I just don't think it 'has' to be done like that still.

Honestly, a slightly different coloration to the same armor items for pre-Echo/Unlock isn't much to ask to 'honor' the legacy of players that spent countless hours grinding away for those pieces while it was still tough & lockout still existed.

There doesn't have to be a bonus for clearing before the echo implementation; but there should be some sort of achievement for clearing with echo turned off and participating under original conditions (IL91).

Just change the color of the "easy mode" Coil. Don't understand why SE always wants to focus on the casual gamer. A color change is the least they could do instead of only double-nerfing Coil (assistance + everyone doing it in i85+ gear).

We need a horizontal game, not the boring "waiting for next patch" vertical game.

So instead of bronze make the Echo gear silver (in looks)?

It's Abyssea all over again.

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Originally Posted by Hvinire

Greetings everyone,

To clarify specifically about dungeon difficulty, as the game progresses, we're planning to offer players the Echo buff to make themselves stronger in order to challenge older content, not necessarily just lowering the difficulty of the dungeon or encounter itself. Also, those who wish to complete the dungeon without assistance may remove the Echo buff.

While there are no plans to give bonuses to those who cleared content before the addition of the Echo buff, we did submit the feedback that some of you had for more horizontal progression on rewards.

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Well, it's a start. At least you guys are listening to us. We don't want you to simply rehash FFXI, we just want to see that this game lasts as long as it has and exceeds XI's success. We want ARR to be the best FF it can be! :D

i don't see why add a bonus reward for having finish a content before the next one... the reward is to be able to begin before the other. it's more a trouble of ego than anything.

about the one talking of the casual stance for the game i will answer this, who do you think is the more important as player base in number? the casual, you can not like this, but that a fact, you have more player called "casual" than hardcore. then focus on a small playerbase for a company that try to get money for a game is indeed not the smartest move.

that said, i'm against any sort of reward for the... old player over the new player in general, creating a schisme between old and new player have always make a mess... look at all the trouble between legacy and new player we had while the beta and still have now.

finally, they seems able to give us enough content for use the vertical progression instead to give us horizontal one it's a good thing! if a player begin to play when the 2.2 will be out, he will have already a pretty decent quantity of content to do.

I don't think players should be getting "special rewards" or "special markers" for clearing content when they cleared it. Nor should players who use the Echo buff be somehow marked differently for clearing that content.
That will only serve to segregate the already fragile community. The last thing we need is more epeen in this community.

As far as horizontal progression is concerned, I'm not against it so as long as it is implemented in a way that doesn't involve XI's stupidity and side grades.

On a side note, the name blame with the casuals is getting pretty old. It feels like I can't read a single thread on these forums without some "le uber" player getting their panties in a bunch over casuals. Sounds to me like the problem does not lie with the casuals but with the QQing le uber hardcore 1337z player of awesome

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Originally Posted by Anapingofness

I don't think players should be getting "special rewards" or "special markers" for clearing content when they cleared it.

On a side note, the name blame with the casuals is getting pretty old. It feels like I can't read a single thread on these forums without some "le uber" player getting their panties in a bunch over casuals. Sounds to me like the problem does not lie with the casuals but with the QQing le uber hardcore 1337z player of awesome

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It's usually the same people who think killing crabs in Valkurm Dunes ala FFXI for hours on end was difficult and required skills rather then questing. But I agree with you fully. Don't want the echo buff? Remove it and press on, no one else cares if you are puffing your chest and clearing story/raid content without a handicap. It was the same in WoW. People whined about a buff in the frozen throne for about a week, then realized "hmm, no one cares about my gloating".

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Originally Posted by Hvinire

While there are no plans to give bonuses to those who cleared content before the addition of the Echo buff

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Hvinire - please tell the development team that a lot of the community simply does not want to lose old challenges. At any given time a real life situation can prevent someone from playing this wonderful game you have all slaved over to create. I think most players would like the "option" to play challenges that they were unable to initially participate for one reason or another.

Please tell the development team that there is still a demand out there to fight Twintania under its original conditions (Maximum item level of 91 without an echo buff). You could please a lot of players by implementing these "Time Capsule" achievements. One such achievement could be "Complete the binding coil of Bahamaut Turns 1 through 5 with a maximum item level of 91 and without the use of an echo buff).

Has anyone tested how much the echo buff helps? Because it'd have to be a BIG enhancement for DF to be able to clear Coil.

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Originally Posted by MasamuneBranford

Please tell the development team that there is still a demand out there to fight Twintania under its original conditions (Maximum item level of 91 without an echo buff).

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He just said the Echo buff is optional. Coordinate with your team to be geared 91 and under.

I am pleased that Coil is not getting nerfed and the buff can be taken off. That at least gives more options to people who started late and want to try it the hard way.
Gearing will probably still make things easier (unless they did an ilvl sync, which is probably a bad idea) but when you nerf a place, it's a pretty permanent change.

At least you always have the option to do it the old way.

I really don't see the problem with an achievement or title for doing it the harder way.
I have an achievement for killing 10k+ mobs. How is that any less trivial?
The whole game is made with a hierarchy of difficulty, item level and rewards.

Adding minor rewards to adding challenge to an encounter just gives people more to do if they feel like it. It doesn't need to be as serious as a whole gearset recoloured though.
But some acknowledgement is good, challenge and reward is the basis of most themepark games.


You might as well not have progressive content if you're afraid some people will get upset they can't get something. A minor reward for doing something minor, i.e. doing content before it was easy or doing old content under certain conditions.
A mount or recolouring is too much. A title would probably be best cause it doesn't take much. (Hell, it doesn't even show....)

for the challenge, they really need to add an ilevel sync... some dungeon are a pain when you are too much equiped, like pharos sirus. and some become...ridiculous because overpowered by the difference of equipement. they had added level synce for low level dungeon. as the game evolve and add more rank in ilevel they need to add the ilevel sync. is not different than getting more level than the dungeon and coming crushing it!

Oh thank gods!

Though I really really hope this means Turn 5 will not be nerfed. Or T1-T4.

P.S. The Echo Buff reminds me too much of the Golden/White Tanooki Suit. I feel that every time I even think about using it in Super Mario 3D Land/World, I'm just admitting that I suck at the particular level/the whole game.

Well, they nerfed the crap out of the White Ravens, which pissed off some folks I know a great deal.

That really wasn't cool btw YP.

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Originally Posted by MasamuneBranford

Please tell the development team that there is still a demand out there to fight Twintania under its original conditions (Maximum item level of 91 without an echo buff). You could please a lot of players by implementing these "Time Capsule" achievements. One such achievement could be "Complete the binding coil of Bahamaut Turns 1 through 5 with a maximum item level of 91 and without the use of an echo buff).

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Would be still possible.
Do an own party (without DF) with everyone in gear not higher than 80 and all members remove the buff with right-clicking.

The thing with the achievement could be a good idea. "Clear coil 1-4 with all party members removed the echo buff"
Something like this was also in 1.0, like "Do hamlet defences with only DoH and DoL"

There is a thing called the Date you got the achievement on.... that's kind of reward enough.

Either way, it would be nice if the game is not a never-ending gear treadmill to get another 10 item levels every patch

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Originally Posted by Hvinire

Greetings everyone,

To clarify specifically about dungeon difficulty, as the game progresses, we're planning to offer players the Echo buff to make themselves stronger in order to challenge older content, not necessarily just lowering the difficulty of the dungeon or encounter itself. Also, those who wish to complete the dungeon without assistance may remove the Echo buff.

While there are no plans to give bonuses to those who cleared content before the addition of the Echo buff, we did submit the feedback that some of you had for more horizontal progression on rewards.

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Personally I like vertical progression it gives me something to work for. Horizontal progression and side grades or gear thats weaker then current tier like Crystal Tower was kind of useless for me because my Paladin had all 90 gear when it came out meaning I had nothing to gain from doing it.

Let Yoshi know there are us players who like vertical progression and enjoy working toward getting newer stronger gear.

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Originally Posted by Gesser

I'm not one to reward elitists or 'hardcores over casuals', but you have to consider... the many, many hours and weeks spent over farming for pieces pre-Echo/Unlock, only to have everything homogenize post-2.2, it can be disheartening for many.

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I think they are speaking of older content, so those of us that have busted our butts getting that gear will likely have moved onto something better. I think its mostly for the casual that is very behind or new people trying to catch up to end-game stuff. Depending on how its implemented, I'm not sure I'm so worried about it. I'm more peeved about my White Ravens getting uber nerfed from 1.0.

As long as they drop giving us the echo buff once players hit whats just a tier or two below the most "Recent" endgame I couldn't complain. Help the scrubs get by Titan hard and get them some help gearing up for coil then let them enter 1-5 with no echo buffs.

I'm all for letting players clear content but they need to keep the divide between skilled players and people who can't be bothered somewhere other than the bleeding edge.

Vertical progression should match with the maximum level a player can achieve, though. The problem with the gear score boosting method of progression is that eventually it leads to huge peaks that suddenly have to be addressed when the next expansion comes out, to the point that eventually all the gear has to be recalculated down the line. Horizontal progression and challenges lets people develop multiple sets of gear as well as gear up alternate classes/jobs without suffering from content burn out and helps address the score spikes that happen at end game.

I really hope that the echo buff is left off by default, and only appears once you respawn at the entrance (Meaning you at least try to do it without once.). It's been a long time, but when I used the buff (instead of dispelling it) I was doing one of the scholar job quests (I was tired and couldn't be arsed lol) it made a rediculous difference. As in, instead of the NPCs dying and failing, I was destroying everything.

I can guarantee insta-kicks for anyone removing it, easy way or no way is what this place is all about.

The future of successful MMO gaming is based around creating accessible content to all skill levels of players. There seems to be some kind of illusion that you are a special butterfly if you grinded for hours to wrack your nerves against coil for the first few months. You talk about the horizontal progression that came with 2.1 which was mostly crystal tower which was supposed to be launch content.

It wasn't intended that you progress coil with dark light/Vanya gear but just ended up being an unfortunate accident of unforeseen circumstances.

Vertical progression is an accessibility feature that makes older content easier to catch up on to begin newer content. Its a good thing for all but those entitled elitists that want everyone else to bow at their feet. Measure your life in a more meaningful way please as you're part of the reason we have this toxic community.

In my opinion and I believe many others is you like to have unique things based off of your accomplishments in the game. Having unique and cool rewards should not divide the community, I think it would serve to make better players and a better community. You would have people trying harder or practicing a little more to beat that tough spot they are at so they to could get that special reward.

Its also things like this that can help ease the hardcore crowds frustration with lack of things to do, because most of these players find the most enjoyment in earning tough to achieve rewards.

Accessibility > Everything else


Coil is currently endgame content that you're intended to struggle on. In a few patches, it will no longer be intended for you to struggle on, because there will be more to do. And square actually wants people to DO IT, not be scared off from it.

No matter which type of progression it is, people simply enjoy progressing. Coil will simply be replaced by something else of equal difficulty.


I'm hot for super difficult content, but consistent progression is the sole reason why I give this MMO time of day over others. I hate how linear gear progression in FFXIV is looking, but I will support Square's decision to keep the progression train accessible as long as they keep doing it right.

Am I the only one who reads this thread as:
"WAHHH!!! The casuals are going to farm twintania, while I fight the turn 9 boss.. Wahhhh! They will have all the gear I was using before my 110 stuff <sob> There will be no way to tell the casual from my 5th job with i95wep/i90 gear!!!

Seriously children, time to grow up. No item or fight should ever be considered hardcore exclusive.

Hardcore get the first wins on world/server, the casuals get it later, this is the natural order of things.

Amazing, but not surprised to see after all the 'remove the weekly lock out' threads, that it didn't dawn to someone that without the lockouts, all the casuals could actually catch up... lmao, and then to act like SE is doing something wrong so that all the paying customers of the product can enjoy what they are paying for is arrogance given form...

Anyways I look forward to finish the gearing up of my 5th job while someone else finishes their 1st/2nd. I just hope I have better lots :)

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Help the scrubs

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Can we please leave this word in WoW, or possibly in 1998 where it belongs.

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Originally Posted by Hvinire

Greetings everyone,

To clarify specifically about dungeon difficulty, as the game progresses, we're planning to offer players the Echo buff to make themselves stronger in order to challenge older content, not necessarily just lowering the difficulty of the dungeon or encounter itself. Also, those who wish to complete the dungeon without assistance may remove the Echo buff.

While there are no plans to give bonuses to those who cleared content before the addition of the Echo buff, we did submit the feedback that some of you had for more horizontal progression on rewards.

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When you say "Dungeons," does that also mean trails? Like the primal fights?

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Personally I like vertical progression it gives me something to work for. Horizontal progression and side grades or gear thats weaker then current tier like Crystal Tower was kind of useless for me because my Paladin had all 90 gear when it came out meaning I had nothing to gain from doing it.

Let Yoshi know there are us players who like vertical progression and enjoy working toward getting newer stronger gear.

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This. Not to mention that horizontal progression doesn't really work in a game like this unless you're willing to add gear with similar stats of the same ilvl but different textures (which, given Glamours wouldn't be a bad idea but I know some dummy-heads out there are under the delusion of getting gear with +healing potency and +refresh and +haste, which belong in poorly-balanced games like FFXI).

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Originally Posted by Deviant1

Am I the only one who reads this thread as:
"WAHHH!!! The casuals are going to farm twintania, while I fight the turn 9 boss.. Wahhhh! They will have all the gear I was using before my 110 stuff <sob> There will be no way to tell the casual from my 5th job with i95wep/i90 gear!!!

Seriously children, time to grow up. No item or fight should ever be considered hardcore exclusive.

Hardcore get the first wins on world/server, the casuals get it later, this is the natural order of things.

Amazing, but not surprised to see after all the 'remove the weekly lock out' threads, that it didn't dawn to someone that without the lockouts, all the casuals could actually catch up... lmao, and then to act like SE is doing something wrong so that all the paying customers of the product can enjoy what they are paying for is arrogance given form...

Anyways I look forward to finish the gearing up of my 5th job while someone else finishes their 1st/2nd. I just hope I have better lots :)

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Quoted for super-ultra-omega truth.

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Originally Posted by Gesser

Thank you Hvinire, I'm very glad to hear the Echo buff will be optional.

Related, may you please look over this thread & politely ask them to reconsider having no current plans to award pre-Echo/Unlock contenders?

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...se#post1820725

I'm not one to reward elitists or 'hardcores over casuals', but you have to consider... the many, many hours and weeks spent over farming for pieces pre-Echo/Unlock, only to have everything homogenize post-2.2, it can be disheartening for many.

As a fair & equitable compromise, the "rewards" are very miniscule, especially the 'slightly different color palette' one.

Additionally, I know MMO's haven't ever historically done this in the past ("your reward is you get to do the next tier-content sooner than the rest!" or "you already have the gear, why do you care that others now have easy-access to it, get over it!")... I just don't think it 'has' to be done like that still.

Honestly, a slightly different coloration to the same armor items for pre-Echo/Unlock isn't much to ask to 'honor' the legacy of players that spent countless hours grinding away for those pieces while it was still tough & lockout still existed.

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So what youre asking for is people like me get "looked at differently" even though i ~have~ cleared the content but have horrible luck?

My group is capable of 1 shoting 1-4 consistently.

I have cleared turn 1 for 16? 17?+ weeks. Yet I have yet to see a allagan tank body drop. (My main job is tank.) So now i should get a different color that indicates i'm not as "quick" as others? This makes no sense.

If you dont want to play with the echo thats great but trying to say your better or should be rewarded differently because you started the game sooner and/or skipped the story to clear things faster is kind of selfish you dont think?

This is not an attack, this is opening your eyes to other people, their luck, and their "position." So dont take it personally.

I play on a more casual basis and no I don't want to be pushed to the top. These changes punish those who take their time with the game. Some people like challenges and don't want the content they are currently on to be handed to them. Everyone says these changes are for the casual players, making previous content uselsss (which ex primals/ct will be) just makes the game boring. Nothing wrong with a long gear progression, that just gives players more to do. I don't think I have ever heard a casual player complain that the guy who plays a lot more then them has better gear. That is a false assumption.

What or how another player achieves an accomplishment, has NOTHING to do with your own personal achievement of the same accomplishment. There is no need for different colors of armor or markers for honoring the legacy of those who did it first. Everyone's achievement is a personal thing and takes nothing away from anyone else's.

If you are so concerned about how other players' use of the echo or buff or any of this will affect your own accomplishments, then you are basing your own worth on how others perceive you. Have pride in yourself. You know how you completed the trial. That is yours and yours alone.

Only small people feel the need to belittle other people in order to make themselves look better.

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Originally Posted by YarozeX

So instead of bronze make the Echo gear silver (in looks)?

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I can see this causing kick abuse. He is wearing silver gear, he cannot join OUR run.

Also, then people who already have the gear would be upset that they like the new color scheme better and should be able to get it without having to farm it again.

Sometimes I wonder if the people posting things like "have to keep the casuals and hardcore players divided"... and "could you designate the easy mode gear by making it a different color" ever get embarrassed reading what they have typed.

I wonder if they are embarrassed because they are so desperate to stand out in a video game... and yet- unless they are in a world first FC- they don't stand out. No one cares. Not many care about the world first FCs... but for the people that DO care about that stuff, unless you are a world first FC- you'r just second rate, anyway.

Stop trying to so hard to be something you aren't. Stop trying to stigmatize others so that your mediocrity is less obvious. Enjoy the game for what it is- entertainment.

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

Sometimes I wonder if the people posting things like "have to keep the casuals and hardcore players divided"... and "could you designate the easy mode gear by making it a different color" ever get embarrassed reading what they have typed.

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I was on board with you until I read the rest of your post. I suggest you might look over your own post and see where you might be trying to make a fool of yourself.

Hey look I can paint with broad strokes too!