AOE Toggle Needs to GO

I disagree, aoe toggle is nice. Dont blame features for your inability to play anything other then WoW controls. Try to learn how to use the controls before wanting to resort to another games UI.

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Originally Posted by Dargoth_Draconia

I love the AOE Toggle, is one of my favorite features in the game.

@Razzle what you said about the AoE shouldn't be able to hit non red target mobs is dumb. That is the point of AoE's, you have to be careful where you use them so you don't hit other mobs. You saying otherwise is like asking SE to hold your hand while you play a mage class.

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In that case, If that's really true, and SE enabled AoE on everything so they don't "hold your hand", WHY are we not getting SP for it? Why is it not rewarding when you risk yourself by hitting multiply enemies at a time? WHY should it be BAD when you do so? why should it be POINTLESS when you do so?

That's just silly. This is why I'm saying, either increase number of possible claimed jobs, or allow us to hit claimed mobs only.

We should get SP for mobs we are killing. That's basic really.

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Originally Posted by Raagnar

I disagree, aoe toggle is nice. Dont blame features for your inability to play anything other then WoW controls. Try to learn how to use the controls before wanting to resort to another games UI.

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It seems like you're just attempting to be rude with your post by summoning World of Warcraft. Final Fantasy 11 also did not have an AOE toggle, so why aren't you calling that game out also? In fact; I don't know of any games that have had an AOE toggle before. I guess that all of us are too impaired to play FF14 and that's the real reason why the game is on life support.

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Originally Posted by Platinumstorm

It seems like you're just attempting to be rude with your post by summoning World of Warcraft. Final Fantasy 11 also did not have an AOE toggle, so why aren't you calling that game out also? In fact; I don't know of any games that have had an AOE toggle before. I guess that all of us are too impaired to play FF14 and that's the real reason why the game is on life support.

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mmos before this havent had the toggle

SEVERAL rpgs have though, and thats why people say its been done in the past

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Originally Posted by Razzle

This is why I'm saying, either increase number of possible claimed jobs, or allow us to hit claimed mobs only.

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Claim system changes are planned

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Originally Posted by Tibian

AOE Toggle needs to be removed. Terrible terrible terrible concept.

Is this being addressed in the battle update?

SE needs to make individual AOE spells or somehow remake the AOE mechanics. The toggle is too much of a hassle to deal with, especially when aggro'd groups don't even yield SP until they turn red.

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Speak for yourself. Just because you accidentally AoE everything, doesn't mean we should scrap the ability to toggle AoE's on/off. Use macros or actually READ if you're AoE is on/off.

There are others ways of fixing accidental AoE casting like AoE is on as a default for white magic and AoE is off as a default for black. Or have it remember what setting you had for each spell. But for the mean time, I like to choose whether or not I want to AoE something myself or not instead of having a single target spell and an AoE spell.

It worked in FFXI but there's barely any room on the action bar for me and it would also mean scrolling to find the single/aoe spell which would take as much time if not more to toggle the AoE on/off. And remember, accidentally using an AoE is YOUR mistake.

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Originally Posted by Platinumstorm

I don't know of any games that have had an AOE toggle before.

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Final Fantasy 4, Final Fantasy 5, Final Fantasy 6, Final Fantasy 9...

Those were individual spells with their own special animations and damage properties. They weren't a toggle.

Now, my memory's a little fuzzy on this (okay, very fuzzy), but didn't FFIX have basically the exact same system? Choose your spell, toggle aoe, choose your target, let fly with the Thundaga?

I think that should put to rest the claims of the system not being very FF-like. . .

The AOE toggle button, at least to me, and I could be wrong, seems to say this:

On a playstation controller it's hard to use multiple bars, so we've only included 3 bars and you can't even have more than one bar on the screen at a time, so we're going to add an AOE toggle button - and as an added bonus, we don't even have to add new animations to the game [almost just like they didn't have to design more than 5 locations within a tileset!]. The toggle basically feels like a way for them to take a shortcut in game design.

It honestly doesn't bug me a ton, but there are better solutions; and not being able to understand where your spell cast is going is annoying because the viewing angle in this game seems to distort the distance between monsters at certain camera angles at times; which is a frustrating problem in and of itself.

If you want to look at it from a "realistic/roleplaying" perspective, you would think the casters would be able to control their power so that its released in the area that it wants, and that casters aren't limited to summoning an effect only on top of a monster.

What I would like to see are two different spell styles, Thunder/Thundera, and when choosing Thundera you would get a radius on the ground that you could move and adjust its size. By increasing the size of the AOE radius past its default you would begin to lower its power per monster that it hits, and decreasing it into a smaller radius could increase the power level [but never to a point where it exceeds a single target cast].

This would be innovative and would improve on what is likely the best AOE system in any mmo today - World of Warcraft's.

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Originally Posted by Platinumstorm

No. There were two different spells like protect and protectra.

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http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/197338-fi...y-ix/faqs/9856

So, why does this keep saying "Deals X type of damage to single/multiple enemies"?

I like the AoE toggle the only thing I would like is a target ring of some sort. I like changing the effect of a nuke or buff with 1 button, but I dont like having to guesstimate on if the random mob is just inside or outside of the AoE range, especially with how mobs like to randomly wander about, including the ones you have claimed.

I know it gets rid of immersion a bit, but so does the button itself popping up so it wouldn't be too much extra to add. It's just annoying to have to constantly run and readjust mid cast because a sheep felt like saying hello or because at the last second a mole waltzes over and it becomes too late to cancel or move to change the AoE area.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/197338-fi...y-ix/faqs/9856

So, why does this keep saying "Deals X type of damage to single/multiple enemies"?

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I'm sorry, I read IX as XI due to fast reading. I don't remember IX's system well at all. I beat it and a day and thought it was less than memorable for me, even though others have taken a liking to it. It was one of my least favorite FF experiences.

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Originally Posted by Platinumstorm

I'm sorry, I read IX as XI due to fast reading. I don't remember IX's system well at all. I beat it and a day and thought it was less than memorable for me, even though others have taken a liking to it. It was one of my least favorite FF experiences.

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Ah, thought that might've been the case. I'm just glad my memory didn't fail me. :)

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

yes, because aoe is perfect when you got a bunch of mobs that arent your target in the area :D

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sounds like a more than suitable penalty to me, screw up and you die.

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Originally Posted by Reaux

I like the AoE toggle the only thing I would like is a target ring of some sort. I like changing the effect of a nuke or buff with 1 button, but I dont like having to guesstimate on if the random mob is just inside or outside of the AoE range, especially with how mobs like to randomly wander about, including the ones you have claimed.

I know it gets rid of immersion a bit, but so does the button itself popping up so it wouldn't be too much extra to add. It's just annoying to have to constantly run and readjust mid cast because a sheep felt like saying hello or because at the last second a mole waltzes over and it becomes too late to cancel or move to change the AoE area.

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I guess this is more of an issue with mob positioning and movement than the AoE itself. Maybe if they dont add a target ring but add a reticle or symbol on all PCs/NPCs that will be affected by said spell. Like if I cast Stygian Spikes the same reticle that pops on a single sub target can pop on all people in the AoE that the spell will actually hit. This would let us know if the party members we actually want getting hit with it are there or if they are just out of range. Same for mobs and it would also assist in getting less accidental agro if we had that kind of visual prompt. Does any of this make sense?

Adding in multiples of a spell would be cumbersome. Many PC games use the 1-9/0 keys on a hotbar and I like it for speedy fast battles like XIV. It also keeps the UI more minimal making it better to look at. I would hate to develop an Everquest/WoW style UI where it also requires tons of add-ons to make things work or because they have the same spell but each upgrade gets its on individual Icon. I still play XI and sometimes dislike switching between PLD/WHM for the reason that I can't just slap a button to make Protect or Shell AoE but need whole separate macros.

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Originally Posted by Platinumstorm

I'm sorry, I read IX as XI due to fast reading. I don't remember IX's system well at all. I beat it and a day and thought it was less than memorable for me, even though others have taken a liking to it. It was one of my least favorite FF experiences.

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Probably because you definitely didn't do everything if you beat it in only a day, no game to me is memorable if I blow through it lol.

And yes, aside XI, quite a bit of FF (and RPG in general) you hit a button after you selected your spell and it would be single target or AoE. VII had the gimped -all materia.

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Originally Posted by Tibian

AOE Toggle needs to be removed. Terrible terrible terrible concept.

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Agree.
Instead of just FIRE with action slot cost 3 and impractical toggle button, there should be FIRE w/ slot cost 1 and FIRAGA w/ slot cost 2. FIRAGA should consume MUCH more MP too. Same thing with tier 2 spells, with Cure/Sac, with buffs, etc.

Seriously, what was wrong with -ga spells in previous FF games? Ive never heard anyone complaining about it.

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Originally Posted by Chory

Seriously, what was wrong with -ga spells in previous FF games? Ive never heard anyone complaining about it.

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"We want this game as different as possible from FFXI."

Isn't there already one-button casting in the way of the number keys that corresponds to to the slot? Unless they changed the way it works since I last played on keyboard, I thought the 1-0 keys executes the spell on the current target, skipping the sub-target cursor. All they need to do is make aoe toggle key (z by default) work all the time even when you don't have a target selected.

Yeah... no.

Mob positioning is 'part' of the issue, especially when a level 30 monster is around a level 50... but that's definitely not going to fix the terribleness of the AOE toggle. With any AOE you carry the risk of aggroing monsters beside you: that's a given. The issue is that the AOE toggle causes inefficiency. I've had several times when I want to switch between single target DPS, and then healing AOE to prevent people from dying. Unfortunately the AOE toggle has a delay, and quite honestly it doesn't function as fast as it should. I actually have to wait to press Z rather than instantly press Z and go to town. Then, in the event that I do succeed in dealing with the terrible toggle feature, I still have to press enter to make the spell activate. That too adds another 1-2 seconds to casting. 1-2 seconds is crucial to someone who is on the brink of death. That's not human error, that's simply a barrier of dealing with UI mechanics that don't function as well as they could or should.

The counter argument to the evaluation of revamping or even looking at the AOE toggle is that "I like the AOE Toggle and your argument is flawed because I like it!" Is mainly what I hear. The fact that the original post has 30 likes alone means that there is an entire community out there that finds the AOE toggle is inefficient.

There are valid points to each side of keeping and altering the toggle and I think ultimately the dev team needs to address the issue with the battle update or shortly after upon determining how the battle system/fixes work.

The dev team continually puts out messages that say they want to make the game fun, exciting, and challenging. The current AOE toggle is definitely a feature that is preventing them from achieving such.

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Isn't there already one-button casting in the way of the number keys that corresponds to to the slot? Unless they changed the way it works since I last played on keyboard, I thought the 1-0 keys executes the spell on the current target, skipping the sub-target cursor. All they need to do is make aoe toggle key (z by default) work all the time even when you don't have a target selected.

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1-0 does execute the spell on the current target, but you still have to press enter after you press the spell due to the aoe toggle, which is what is causing the problems and inefficiency.

The removal of the AOE toggle feature in that particular instance is what I particularly would prefer. I dislike having to press enter after I have already selected the spell I want to cast. It adds an unnecessary input that is a given when my target is already selected.

It would greatly improve the battle experience, (if they still want to keep the toggle,) by removing the requirement of pressing enter after each spell is selected. In addition to that, they'd have to make it so the AOE toggle would be controlled by a keybind, most likely Z, and then just have a status thing that says "AOE Enabled" on the side of the screen. But then herein lies the debate of most UI problems, is that its an 'unnecessary keybind and pads have a limited number of buttons they can bind to. Which again brings up the discussion of developing PS3/PC UI's independently of one another... which is the main source of nearly all UI discussions because keyboard and mouse has been and will always be more efficient than a pad.

I think the current aoe feature is fine could it be approved sure. I'm not seeing the point of this thread, either your plan is to attack multiple target's or you don't simple concept. If your concern is over hitting multiple enemy's then I would recommend keeping it off until it's needed. I use the controller and keyboard because I use it to chat and the Z button isn't very far from the controller that's is in my hands.

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Originally Posted by Tibian

Mob positioning is 'part' of the issue, especially when a level 30 monster is around a level 50... but that's definitely not going to fix the terribleness of the AOE toggle. With any AOE you carry the risk of aggroing monsters beside you: that's a given. The issue is that the AOE toggle causes inefficiency. I've had several times when I want to switch between single target DPS, and then healing AOE to prevent people from dying. Unfortunately the AOE toggle has a delay, and quite honestly it doesn't function as fast as it should. I actually have to wait to press Z rather than instantly press Z and go to town. Then, in the event that I do succeed in dealing with the terrible toggle feature, I still have to press enter to make the spell activate. That too adds another 1-2 seconds to casting. 1-2 seconds is crucial to someone who is on the brink of death. That's not human error, that's simply a barrier of dealing with UI mechanics that don't function as well as they could or should.

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To avoid the AoE toggle step altogether, use a macro. Guaranteed never to miss those AoE cures in the future.

• /aoe on
• /ac "Cure II" <me>
• /aoe off

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Originally Posted by normalforce

To avoid the AoE toggle step altogether, use a macro. Guaranteed never to miss those AoE cures in the future.

• /aoe on
• /ac "Cure II" <me>
• /aoe off

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This only partially solves the problem. Yes, I can always AoE my cures and get a majority of my party: but this doesn't solve the issue of the person standing directly next to me not getting cured or buffed because they were a step outside of the range because my guesstimation of range was slightly off. The range of the AoE's seems kind of arbitrary in when they behave as they should.

Sometimes my "fan/cone" for Thaum works perfectly, other times it works more like a line that hits anything in my peripheral AND directly ahead. Admittedly I have not played Conjurer much so I have no idea if Conjurers have the same issue where the "circle" appears to change size on occasion even when casting the same spell. I love the ability to toggle, but there could be some refinement and at minimum a visual cue could make things easier without needing to change much else.

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Originally Posted by odintius

I think the current aoe feature is fine could it be approved sure. I'm not seeing the point of this thread, either your plan is to attack multiple target's or you don't simple concept. If your concern is over hitting multiple enemy's then I would recommend keeping it off until it's needed. I use the controller and keyboard because I use it to chat and the Z button isn't very far from the controller that's is in my hands.

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Try to play a healer that wants to help with some nukes. Seriously bad idea with drastic consequences if you misfire your AOE toggle....

The current system is too simple and a serious pain in the neck for magic users.

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Originally Posted by Reaux

Sometimes my "fan/cone" for Thaum works perfectly, other times it works more like a line that hits anything in my peripheral AND directly ahead. Admittedly I have not played Conjurer much so I have no idea if Conjurers have the same issue where the "circle" appears to change size on occasion even when casting the same spell. I love the ability to toggle, but there could be some refinement and at minimum a visual cue could make things easier without needing to change much else.

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If I miss people I run to where they are and recast.... :S So i do a lot of running around trying not to get hit while making sure to heal as many people as possible...

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

mmos before this havent had the toggle

SEVERAL rpgs have though, and thats why people say its been done in the past

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Are we seriously justifying this because it's been done in standalone RPGs?

If we're really going to go there, games like FFIV didn't stick an AoE confirmation in your face every time. You hit left on the directional pad. It was single target by default, and you had to tell it to AoE. You weren't forced to choose with a Windows Vista style confirm with a popup on every spell.

We're already tried to turn FFXIV into mind-numbingly slow turned-based combat with the stamina bar and manual attack, and it's been determined that it doesn't work. Not only because there are too many unpredictable factors with playing an MMO vs an offline game, and repeatedly spamming an action is not fun.

Just like this, the AoE toggle is inefficient spam and takes extra time to deal with.

I would much rather see the spells split out, but if that isn't going to happen, then at the very least the mechanics of it need to be revised:

1. Make the AoE toggle a static widget we can turn on and off with a mouse click as needed, instead of a confirmation before every spell
2. Adjust MP so that when in AoE mode, spells cost more to cast

The claiming system and other things are being worked on right now, so I won't necessarily mention that as an issue.

The AoE mechanic, as it pertains to the UI, needs to be streamlined so that it's not frustrating spam for those of us who are full time casters. Plus, it will help to make better choices and get those heals off quickly without fighting with the UI.

[QUOTE=Cendres;189344]Try to play a healer that wants to help with some nukes. Seriously bad idea with drastic consequences if you misfire your AOE toggle....

The current system is too simple and a serious pain in the neck for magic users.

Stand by comment reread first sentence could be approved upon not saying it might not have any issue's but sounds like user error.

Tibian, I wholeheartedly agree with your post. I've pulled out and bolded areas I felt are most crucial to this argument.

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Originally Posted by Tibian

The issue is that the AOE toggle causes inefficiency. I've had several times when I want to switch between single target DPS, and then healing AOE to prevent people from dying. Unfortunately the AOE toggle has a delay, and quite honestly it doesn't function as fast as it should. I actually have to wait to press Z rather than instantly press Z and go to town. Then, in the event that I do succeed in dealing with the terrible toggle feature, I still have to press enter to make the spell activate. That too adds another 1-2 seconds to casting. 1-2 seconds is crucial to someone who is on the brink of death. That's not human error, that's simply a barrier of dealing with UI mechanics that don't function as well as they could or should.

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Originally Posted by Tibian

The dev team continually puts out messages that say they want to make the game fun, exciting, and challenging. The current AOE toggle is definitely a feature that is preventing them from achieving such.

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Originally Posted by Tibian

1-0 does execute the spell on the current target, but you still have to press enter after you press the spell due to the aoe toggle, which is what is causing the problems and inefficiency.

The removal of the AOE toggle feature in that particular instance is what I particularly would prefer. I dislike having to press enter after I have already selected the spell I want to cast. It adds an unnecessary input that is a given when my target is already selected.

It would greatly improve the battle experience, (if they still want to keep the toggle,) by removing the requirement of pressing enter after each spell is selected.

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And.... as a secondary point, I couldn't agree with this more:

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Originally Posted by Tibian

Which again brings up the discussion of developing PS3/PC UI's independently of one another... which is the main source of nearly all UI discussions because keyboard and mouse has been and will always be more efficient than a pad.

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Dual UI development is sorely needed.

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Originally Posted by Cendres

Try to play a healer that wants to help with some nukes. Seriously bad idea with drastic consequences if you misfire your AOE toggle....

The current system is too simple and a serious pain in the neck for magic users.

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Agreed.
/10char

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Originally Posted by normalforce

To avoid the AoE toggle step altogether, use a macro. Guaranteed never to miss those AoE cures in the future.

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Macros are simply workarounds. If we have to live our lives by macros, then something is broken.

I cure and AOE nuke all the time on Conjurer and don't have a problem with it, and if you're having issues with it then you're just not good at the game, don't take away a feature due to badly skilled players lol.

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Originally Posted by Tibian

1-0 does execute the spell on the current target, but you still have to press enter after you press the spell due to the aoe toggle, which is what is causing the problems and inefficiency.

The removal of the AOE toggle feature in that particular instance is what I particularly would prefer. I dislike having to press enter after I have already selected the spell I want to cast. It adds an unnecessary input that is a given when my target is already selected.

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Ah, so it's the pressing enter after clicking the spell that bugs you. From my understanding, removing the aoe toggle won't get rid of that extra enter press. If you want that gone, SE would have to take out the ability to target someone else with a spell besides the target you have main lock on.

The current system as we're all familiar with goes:
1. Select a target to bring up abilities list
2. Select a spell
3. Confirm target for the chosen spell with the option of toggling aoe.

If we wanted the extra enter press to confirm target to be removed we'd have to change the system to something like:

1. Select or change to target which you would like to cast the spell
2. Use the spell

The second example would be one less step, but we'd have to select a different target before casting. This is fine for keyboard and mouse since you can change the main target by clicking on them but for pad users, this will add more time between casts since we'd have to deselect the current target and cycle to the one we want before casting.

Take note that with auto-attack in the works, it's likely that it will be dependant on having the target selected for auto-attack to stay active. This means that if something like the 2nd example were used, a paladin with heal/support abilities would have to stop their attacks, and select a party member before using their ability since the secondary target selection would be removed to get rid of the extra Enter press. To get around that, SE would have to make specific abilities bring up a secondary target selection, which will bring us back to paladins complaining about an extra Enter press as opposed to mages.

Keeping in mind that it's actually the secondary target selection, not aoe toggle, forcing you to press Enter after selecting a spell, what would you propose for a possible spell/ability use procedure?

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Originally Posted by odintius

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Originally Posted by Cendres

Try to play a healer that wants to help with some nukes. Seriously bad idea with drastic consequences if you misfire your AOE toggle....

The current system is too simple and a serious pain in the neck for magic users.

Stand by comment reread first sentence could be approved upon not saying it might not have any issue's but sounds like user error.

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You said that you don't see the point of this thread. I'm telling you why there's a point. Start by typing what you mean and stand by it if you're going to be flippant about it.

Gawd why do I even come to these boards? Full of me me me children. >> (Viion is included in this comment)

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Originally Posted by Rowyne

Agreed.

Macros are simply workarounds. If we have to live our lives by macros, then something is broken.

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Yes macros are supposed to be there to help out, NOT be a requirement to play effectively. This is a problem carried over from FFXI which for some nebulous reason SE just can't get around to work correctly. I don't have this problem in other MMOs.

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Originally Posted by Zuellni

Ah, so it's the pressing enter after clicking the spell that bugs you.

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YES! Finally, someone gets it.

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Originally Posted by Zuellni

If we wanted the extra enter press to confirm target to be removed we'd have to change the system to something like:

1. Select or change to target which you would like to cast the spell
2. Use the spell

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That's all it should be. Two simple steps. Select target, cast spell, it fires off without any extra roadblocks or confirmation. That simple.

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Originally Posted by Rowyne

Macros are simply workarounds. If we have to live our lives by macros, then something is broken.

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What about macros that are used to stack abilities or does that not constitute something being broken?

Anyway, what's wrong with macros? From the keyboard, it's one extra button to hold down. Match them up with your action bar. For example, press 4 for Fire, Ctrl+4 to launch a Fire AoE, or vice versa. Bang, dead simple. You can even label Ctrl+4 Firaga and now everyone's happy.

Voice command's <AOE On cast fire on target> <Aoe off cast cure on target> yea yea in my dream's lol

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Originally Posted by odintius

Voice command's <AOE On cast fire on target> <Aoe off cast cure on target> yea yea in my dream's lol

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You can do it on ME3. So not in your dreams but maybe by 2030... If SE is still in business by then..

So macros are stupid and manually toggling AOE is too slow/clunky.

...What are you doing then?

It would probably be helpful if it remembered your setting for each individual spell from the last time you used it. So cures you put AOE on and it stays on then for nukes you turn it off and the next time you use that nuke it is already off but your cure and buffs would be on as you set them to on last time you used them.

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Originally Posted by AlexiaKidd

It would probably be helpful if it remembered your setting for each individual spell from the last time you used it. So cures you put AOE on and it stays on then for nukes you turn it off and the next time you use that nuke it is already off but your cure and buffs would be on as you set them to on last time you used them.

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That would be a good step in the right direction absolutely. Anything to make the process more intuitive and lessen the number of buttons to press and/or the number of scripted buttons to set up.