Look what just happened in Duty !

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Caraway

Snip.

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Saves time, really. Also I mentioned progression because before then, there were little to no guides released on endgame (unless you did 1.0 and had prior knowledge of Garuda and Ifrit). You were FORCED to learn by doing. Now? Nope. You're more than capable of finding this easily accessible information before jumping into an encounter completely blind. This also saves your booty from the obligatory Scumbag Steve who starts moaning the instant someone has to take a minute or two explaining a mechanic. Even if you learn by doing (I can't really relate, since I learn by observing), it's really helpful for you to know what exactly you're getting into... before you get into it. Since you literally SEE the mechanic before it happens.

I really don't understand what's so complicated to understand.


It says "unjustified use" is punishable.

When you votekick someone, you have to tick one of the following reasons:

AFK
Offline
Harassment
Cheating

Therefore, if you use the kick feature without one of these justification, you're abusing it.


If you believe the guy is trying to ruin your game, then it's harassment, and you're entiteled to kick him.
If not, then you are the one griefing him.



As for guides, maybe some people like to do homework before playing, or enjoy youtube more than the actual video game (why are they paying a sub, then?), but there are those who enjoy discovering the game while playing, and don't want to know everything that's coming before they actually got to play. Or just find homework boring, and are paying their sub to have fun instead of being offline researching.

Yes, some players made guides and videos.
No it's not compulsory to watch them before playing.

The first guys who beat a fight didn't have any guides at their disposal. Just because someone is not a "wold first-er" doesn't mean his own game experience should not be as enjoyable as theirs.

Just wanted to add my personal story:

This is my first MMO, I went from knowing nothing in June to knowing quite a lot now and I'm not a bad SMN, now doing end-game stuff. But now I want to learn tanking, so I'm leveling a GLD that is lvl 22. But… the thing is, I'm so afraid of other people saying rude things to me that I don't dare to enter through DF. The same is true about my WHM, lvl 34. I only play these classes when people in my FC have time to run low-level dungeons with me. The irony in the situation is that both tanks and healers are needed in the DF :P

I don't want to level through FATEs or so since I think doing dungeons is the best way to learn your role. But I don't dare enter through DF since I don't want to be hurt by mean comments or getting kicked or something if I can't hold aggro or if someone dies while I heal or so. I'm sure I'm not the only one feeling this way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TatamiTami

Snip.

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I'll help you since we're on the same server. Tell me whenever you feel like queuing and I'll go with!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AldricBranchais

I'll help you since we're on the same server. Tell me whenever you feel like queuing and I'll go with!

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Yay! That's very nice of you :) I'll contact you next time I'm online (tomorrow most likely). I wish there were more ppl like you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nysneirdre

That is your own interpretation, no where does it actually state that you are not allowed to kick for lack of performance.

Find me the line that says..........................."Kicking people because they suck is against TOS and is abuse"

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It also doesn't say kicking people just because they are Lolafells is not permitted. Some are confusing SE's statement that only specific enumerated reasons are permitted for kicking as also requiring an exhaustive list of all prohibited reasons. It's not that kind of list.

I feel for you OP. Thankfully the majority of players are not like the villian in your tale. Although as time goes on, there seem to be more & more filtering through to our beloved gaming communities.

I'm sure I'm not the only old timer who harkens back to a time when we all found it distasteful or down right disgusting to play with another man's duty. These days, it seems the young kids just roll around in it or throw it at each other for fun.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Little_Aussie_Mhigo

Lol so ur saying girls and kids can't be hardcore? what a joke.

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You misunderstood me !
What i wanted to tell is that you cant know what purson exactly sits in front of the pc and his skill, you people are jsut focused on girl too much ! Example my mam plays too, i can tell you you can pull your hair off if you dont have nerves when you play with her, she stubron and learns slow in the game, or i let my little cousin plays and is fully different story absolute pro!
People are different and learn in a different way also they got different skills and reaction!

Im sorry if made the misuderstanding, it was not intended to say that girls are bed players!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nysneirdre

Hey get back to me when you burn 12 hours straight on your day off in Titan HM due to people not being properly prepared and winging the fight.

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Typical blaming on people for daing on Titan HM. The entire introduction with the Relic quest and HM Titans is poorly made, with almost no information what you are going to expect! Not to mention that Ifrit and Garuda can be passed with normal 50 gear! New players including me, we are all dump founded once we get to titan, all of a sudden the difficulty is up not to mention MAIN reason people daing on Titan HM are the stupid servers of the game or the lagg in it! Ive seen people getting out of the plumps secs befor they are finished and after that they died !

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MikoteAstra

You misunderstood me !
What i wanted to tell is that you cant know what purson exactly sits in front of the pc and his skill, you people are jsut focused on girl too much ! Example my mam plays too, i can tell you you can pull your hair off if you dont have nerves when you play with her, she stubron and learns slow in the game, or i let my little cousin plays and is fully different story absolute pro!
People are different and learn in a different way also they got different skills and reaction!

Im sorry if made the misuderstanding, it was not intended to say that girls are bed players!

---

lol
Sorry, couldn't help laughing :p
Watch out, you're going to have some reactions to this too ,)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lyrinn

Snap

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Yeah I misunderstood you completely, no a fresh new low-mid lvl player should not be kicked from a party. I could've sworn I read on this thread someone that the tank wasn't keeping aggro which is why I went on a rant about people not knowing how to play their class. Since alot of people don't, like you said they just smash buttons. Then expect people to deal with them and give them the entire run down of how to play their class when they've some how made it to level 50 .__.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lyrinn

It's really disgusting how people are still looking for excuses to kick. Do none of you know what "spirit of the law" is? Just because the ToS or patch notes or whatever does not explicitly state that you are not allowed to kick for whatever reason you want does not mean that you can kick for whatever reason you want. SE has very clearly stated that kick's function was to expel afks and griefers and that is it.


This lack of patience and tolerance is what is ruining all games, be they MMORPGs, MOBAs, RTSs, etc.

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This. Thank you!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TatamiTami

Just wanted to add my personal story:



I don't want to level through FATEs or so since I think doing dungeons is the best way to learn your role. But I don't dare enter through DF since I don't want to be hurt by mean comments or getting kicked or something if I can't hold aggro or if someone dies while I heal or so. I'm sure I'm not the only one feeling this way.

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This.. is a problem... NOBODY should be AFRAID to enter a dungeon for fear of harassment.. this game has gotten out of hand.. Kids need to learn some respect.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ProxyTooMuch

When you get synced down to low level dungeons, all your gear is set to NQ white gear stats. If you're having trouble with aggro, it's not a gear issue.

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High level gear does get adjusted down but it's not as dismissable as you make it seem. It still has a huge impact at those levels. I've had multiple people comment how much easier it is to X with sync'd down gear.

Level 50 tanks wearing DL/Myth/Allagan gear will get torn to shreads in Brayflox. This is why I always keep my Cavalry, Battlemage, and Infantry sets on-hand for those 30-49 dungeons. Trust me, I learned this the hard way, both being a tank and a healer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OnpuSegawa

Level 50 tanks wearing DL/Myth/Allagan gear will get torn to shreads in Brayflox. This is why I always keep my Cavalry, Battlemage, and Infantry sets on-hand for those 30-49 dungeons. Trust me, I learned this the hard way, both being a tank and a healer.

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I did Brayflox yesterday and never had any issues with taking too much damage. @_@ That doesn't sound like a gear issue.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OnpuSegawa

Level 50 tanks wearing DL/Myth/Allagan gear will get torn to shreads in Brayflox. This is why I always keep my Cavalry, Battlemage, and Infantry sets on-hand for those 30-49 dungeons. Trust me, I learned this the hard way, both being a tank and a healer.

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More like they're not using cooldowns or dodging things. I remember running out of mana when I was running through Brayflox for the first time. Now if I try it, I overheal for so much that it feels like Sastasha where I can throw out a cure every now and then.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

I did Brayflox yesterday and never had any issues with taking too much damage. @_@ That doesn't sound like a gear issue.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lyrinn

More like they're not using cooldowns or dodging things. I remember running out of mana when I was running through Brayflox for the first time. Now if I try it, I overheal for so much that it feels like Sastasha where I can throw out a cure every now and then.

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The level sync is wacky with gear. Based on how it works, cooldowns or not, enemies are going to hit harder with sync'd down gear VS level appropriate gear for those mid-level dungeons. Low level dungeons are facerolls, but for places like Brayflox, I notice a huge difference in the amount of damage I take.

Good news a recived an in game mail where i had to fill the information witch they needed in order to investigate !

Thank you for contacting the FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn Support Desk.

Although we understand the frustrating nature of these actions, we will require some more information in order to conduct an investigation. If you are still in need of assistance with this matter, please reply to this ticket and include the following information:

- Character first and last name(s)
- Date and time
- An example of what occurred
- Exact quotes what was said by the player

Upon receipt of this information we will conduct an immediate investigation based upon the details we have requested. If violations of FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn’s rules and policies are found, rest assured that we will take the necessary actions.

Thank you for bringing this incident to our attention and we apologise for any inconvenience caused. We look forward to be hearing from you soon.
.

This elitist mindset may question my faith in humanity, but it's fostered by the game itself for two reasons:

1. The Glass Ceiling (or "Skill Barriers"): Compared to 1.0, this game is very challenging for some people. Different people have different skill levels in different things. People improve at their own paces. This is a fact of life that a lot of people tend to forget. Everyone bought this game to have fun, and while glass ceilings don't ruin games in general, the group mentality created as a result of this ruins fun. And why else would you play a game?

The best way to fix this, in my opinion, would be to add a system of dynamic difficulty that revolves around the group or player. This would require a lot of balancing to keep the game challenging (and people tend to hate balancing updates for one reason or another) and the endgame raiding community that shed blood and tears to get their gear would quit (though this wouldn't be a bad thing in retrospect since most endgame raiders are whiny, elitist assholes, to be completely blunt), but it would result in a game that's simply more fun. Players and their friends, doing a dungeon that provides just enough challenge to keep their blood rushing and help them gradually improve at their own paces.

2. The Dungeon Finder: Easy to access, but ruins communities. Just rends them. People use the dungeon finder to play in a group quickly and self-servingly. As a result, dungeons aren't group content. You're not in a group mindset going in and other players are just tools you can utilize to get past the gear barrier as quickly as possible. Most of the time you never go in with people you've met and as a result you don't care about their welfare. They're pixels on the screen that you have no personal connections to. You don't know their personalities, their play-styles, nothing. And why would you? Once the dungeon is over they'll go back to their server and you'll go back to yours, rendering the act of meeting people in an online game fucking useless. They are simply there because the dungeon finder added them, not you. You had no choice in the creation of a party so the only thing you can utilize to vent your frustrations, aside from quitting, is the kick function. Who cares? Another pawn will come in his place, hopefully with some better stats.

Just remove the dungeon finder so people can make groups with their own rules with people that they know or have time to actually meet and make the slightest sliver of a personal connection to. People tend not to help strangers. People will inevitably complain that it takes too long to do dungeons compared to the "days of the dungeon finder," but I will eat my entire left leg if the community doesn't improve as a result.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yoshikwalla

The best way to fix this, in my opinion, would be to add a system of dynamic difficulty that revolves around the group or player.

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http://wowpedia.org/Flexible_Raid

MAKE IT HAPPEN, ENIX.

http://i.imgur.com/77E544g.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AldricBranchais

http://wowpedia.org/Flexible_Raid

MAKE IT HAPPEN, ENIX.

http://i.imgur.com/77E544g.jpg

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*bows gracefully and leaves because I'm going on a trip to Medford, also your signature is epic and manly*

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pikachew

Not being able to hold agro seems like a good enough reason

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Noahlimits

Not according to the TOS. You can't boot someone because their playstyle isn't up to par. It's reportable and people get suspended for kicking people for those reasons.

That's why everyone should just make pre-mades with people on their level.

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Wait, so... we don't have to actually perform our role in the party? And our gear doesn't matter? So if I show up naked as a healer and don't cast any heals because "You can't make me conform to your expectations of a WHM! This isn't a premade!" then nobody is allowed to kick me? Awesome. Time to go trolling-- I mean, being a super casual legitimate player who isn't bound by the expectations of you conformist elitists. Cause I only believe in using Aero and Regen. That's my playstyle.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pikachew

I don't know about you but if the tank im healing can't hold agro worth a damn he is RUINING my run.

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You percieve it as ruining your run, but it is not harassment or AFKing or going offline. Those are the accepted uses of the vote kick. Vote kicking someone because they can't hold aggro is not an option UNLESS they are doing it on purpose, which I'm sure the GMs can figure out if that person was using any enmity skills or not.

Quote:

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Wait, so... we don't have to actually perform our role in the party? And our gear doesn't matter? So if I show up naked as a healer and don't cast any heals because "You can't make me conform to your expectations of a WHM! This isn't a premade!" then nobody is allowed to kick me? Awesome. Time to go trolling-- I mean, being a super casual legitimate player who isn't bound by the expectations of you conformist elitists. Cause I only believe in using Aero and Regen. That's my playstyle.

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That would fall under harassment, not playstyle. If a tank is in a party and doing all he can to try to hold aggro but the BLM relic +1 is unloading and taking aggro, it's not the tanks fault. Note: Not allowed to vote kick the BLM either though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DragonFlyy

Snip

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Just a thought here. But if you have someone in your party, that after advice given, is still the reason your party can't clear the dungeon. Isn't he griefing the rest of the party by staying?

I know that in this case they don't suck on purpose, but they and everyone in the party know it's their fault that they can't win. So shouldn't that person leave?

There is also the possibility that none of the others have played X job, so can't give advice on how to play it better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Amberion

Just a thought here. But if you have someone in your party, that after advice given, is still the reason your party can't clear the dungeon. Isn't he griefing the rest of the party by staying?

I know that in this case they don't suck on purpose, but they and everyone in the party know it's their fault that they can't win. So shouldn't that person leave?

There is also the possibility that none of the others have played X job, so can't give advice on how to play it better.

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If it's a DF party, if you don't like the situation, you leave. You don't kick someone else. The thing is, if he's doing what he can(maybe he learns slower than others) it's not griefing in the slightest. Some people like this WILL leave, but some want to keep going and learning. Still not griefing, sorry.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ispano

If it's a DF party, if you don't like the situation, you leave. You don't kick someone else. The thing is, if he's doing what he can(maybe he learns slower than others) it's not griefing in the slightest. Some people like this WILL leave, but some want to keep going and learning. Still not griefing, sorry.

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Maybe griefing is not the right word. But I would say that staying and being the only thing in the way of your party clearing the dungeon, that you really should expect a kick. To me, what he/she is doing is as close to greifing you can get without stepping over the line.

Anyway, kicking someone from a party isn't harassment. For it top be that, the same people would have to do it repeatedly. Harassment isn't a one time thing.

You heard it here first, if you are new and don't know what to do yet: Drop so your party doesn't have to kick you. That way you can never learn, and you can drop again next time so they don't kick you. . .

This thread has gotten even more ridiculous today.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

You heard it here first, if you are new and don't know what to do yet: Drop so your party doesn't have to kick you. That way you can never learn, and you can drop again next time so they don't kick you. . .

This thread has gotten even more ridiculous today.

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This game is failing and fast because more people are generally impatient and rude.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Amberion

Maybe griefing is not the right word. But I would say that staying and being the only thing in the way of your party clearing the dungeon, that you really should expect a kick. To me, what he/she is doing is as close to greifing you can get without stepping over the line.

Anyway, kicking someone from a party isn't harassment. For it top be that, the same people would have to do it repeatedly. Harassment isn't a one time thing.

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Why in the first place do you register for duty finder solo, if you dont expect to play with new players, not so good once, random people with random skill ! Ah yes i know to abuse the sytem and play as god to kick them !
Ive been in plenty of partys in the dns, where i met meany not so good players or new once, but we took our time epxplained to them the things in dns ! Yes we died a lot and took almsot the entire time to finish it but so what, those people listen and learned ! Yeah was frustrating at some times but was a lot of fun too and i met a lot of nice people like so!

If you dont like it or you have no nerves then leave ! In the first place dont register for Duty, go make yourself a party with people witch is u to your standarts !

Also I am assuming Mikote English is not that persons first language. So you guys being grammar nazis, and making fun of him/her is really in poor taste.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AldricBranchais

http://wowpedia.org/Flexible_Raid

MAKE IT HAPPEN, ENIX.

http://i.imgur.com/77E544g.jpg

---

Hey look, a solution to the problem with current raiding! Hurrah!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MikoteAstra

snip

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Not up to my standards. The dungeons standards. I have very basic standards.

I can't really tell others how to be better at tanking, since I haven't leveled up mine. So can't give advice there, but I help as best I can with boss mechanics and such.

But when you have a tank that can't keep up enough enmity for the heals he needs. And after doing a boss 12+ times. Then came the fact that us DPS had to hold back so much that we wouldn't have been able to kill it in time. Talking about AK and the dragon here.

Pillars would have been gone even if we made it that far, but usually the dragon went for the healer. Was actually impossible to kill the dragon with that tank. Maybe if the healer was geared better, one of us DPS could tank it while killing it as I have heard happening.

And then you also talked about the golden words, "listen and learned". Yes, most people do that. But you will also have people who say, "don't tell me how to play". Or just plain stay silent.

Anyway, if you after everything still knowingly holding back 3 others from completing the dungeon, then you are rude to them.

Quote:

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You heard it here first, if you are new and don't know what to do yet: Drop so your party doesn't have to kick you. That way you can never learn, and you can drop again next time so they don't kick you. . .

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You aren't new to your job at level 50.

I once registered into DF for Garuda NM with a friend who needed to kill her.

We ended up with a full first timer team. I was the only one who had already killed her (or even fought her).

Nobody quit. We wiped countless times. The team improved, little bit by little bit. Still, we ended up using all of the 90 minutes the fight allowed, and by that time, she was down to like 5-10%.

So yeah, maybe members of this team weren't the best players in the world (I know I'm not). Maybe some better players would have figure the fight faster, some better geared players, or some more experienced players, would have killed her.

But in the end, no one quit, everybody tried their best, we all learned something (including me, because I never did the fight as another class as the one I was playinng, so I couldn't give them all tips on everything).
And we didn't have a bad time.
Easy time? Nope. But bad? Certainly not.

Those weren't griefers. They had the right to play, learn, fight something that was a new challenge to them, trying to overcome it together.


If any of those people had ended up in an otherwise more experienced team, made of 3 other well geared players who already knew how to win the fight, they might have been dragging the whole team down.
You don't get to choose who you end up with in the DF.

Did they deserved to be kicked for it? Certainly not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Amberion

Not up to my standards. The dungeons standards. I have very basic standards.

I can't really tell others how to be better at tanking, since I haven't leveled up mine. So can't give advice there, but I help as best I can with boss mechanics and such.

But when you have a tank that can't keep up enough enmity for the heals he needs. And after doing a boss 12+ times. Then came the fact that us DPS had to hold back so much that we wouldn't have been able to kill it in time. Talking about AK and the dragon here.

Pillars would have been gone even if we made it that far, but usually the dragon went for the healer. Was actually impossible to kill the dragon with that tank. Maybe if the healer was geared better, one of us DPS could tank it while killing it as I have heard happening.

And then you also talked about the golden words, "listen and learned". Yes, most people do that. But you will also have people who say, "don't tell me how to play". Or just plain stay silent.

Anyway, if you after everything still knowingly holding back 3 others from completing the dungeon, then you are rude to them.



You aren't new to your job at level 50.

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As someone pointed out, you are free to leave if you don't want to play with the people you end up with in DF.
But you are not free to kick them out for this reason (however right you might be).



If there are so many people who think kicking someone out because he's not good enough is OK and should be allowed, then ask SE to add it as a reason in their list.
You are entilted to feel this way (however much I disagree with it). But it currently ISN'T one of the reasons why SE gave us the kick feature.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Billie21

-snip-

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This is the one key point that people like to ignore for various reasons. This is DF, you're going to have all kinds, new and experienced in DF. Your punishing someone by kicking them, just because they may not be as experienced as you and was unlucky enough to get random'd with you. They have the same right as you to be there. If this is something you don't like, you need to use party finder. Make your own group and you have every right to boot whomever you wish, for whatever you wish.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Colt47

Hey look, a solution to the problem with current raiding! Hurrah!

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Too bad progressive discussion is buried deep underneath a bunch of people throwing rocks at one another, trying to justify or unjustify the transparent ethics behind a system that has been nothing but a cancer to this community since it was announced. This entire thread is proof that dungeon finders kill communities.

Amberion

And still you dont have the right to kick him couse of those reasons! If you dont like it simply leave. Just like you he waited on the line, he pays for the game too, and if he is not cheating or afk or nonstop harassing people with bad words and etc. you simply dont have the right to vote him out of the party.

All players have the right to play the game as they fit as long as they dont cheat in it. And remember not all have good skill or are fast learners also as an example my little cousin dont speak english, so yeah he wont say a thing and he want be able to read eanything, and because of that you will kick him ? This is absured some people simply try to find reasons so that they can kick players as much as they want and play as god !

And in the case of the dn i was, they didnt bather to give him advice or eanything, they were silent from the begining and when we were close to the first boss and then bam a vote for kicking him out ! And once again the tank was good not eaven once by opening the 3 doors the soldjers were not turned into damons and i can tell you that i was with partys of players with full gear and relic + weapons witch did not managed that !

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MikoteAstra

Snip!

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Actually, in my example. We help all the tank all the way to the last boss.

And if someone don't understand English. I would hope that once they see their name and a "?". That they would use the auto-translator to say that they don't understand English. That way, I would at least be able to try and help them. Of course, the auto translator in this game is a bit lacking. I would still do my best to try and help.

And as for your example there, yeah, they where dicks.

Anyway, if even after all the advice and tries, still fail. They are starting to knowingly disrupt the game-play of 3 others. They should leave and go to an easier dungeon until they are ready for the current one.

Heck, I think there is even a clause in the ToS about disrupting the game play of others. Of course, that could go both ways in this.

Was doing WP, only the second time I had done that instance. I first got yelled at because I was waiting for the short area intro to play through. Two of the party apparently wanted a speed run, and I was not quite sure how to do that. Apologized, said I had only been there once and it wasn't a speed run, not sure I knew what to do for that. After four wipes, they agreed to not do a speed run. Got to the first boss, everything went good. Got to the second boss and one of their party members started kiting the adds around the room instead of giving me a chance to gain aggro on them (every time I tried, they were out of range.). After the third wipe, I asked them to bring the adds to me so I could grab aggro, and within a minute, I was kicked. Not sure if I can report the one I think was the leader or not?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MikoteAstra

http://i43.tinypic.com/2zyycfc.jpg

I think the image speaks for it self !

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While the TOS may be on your side, if the tank can't hold aggro, maybe he should not do hard mode instances, or he shouldn't play a tank, especially considering that holding aggro in FFXIV is quite easy unless the DPS are intentionally going overboard.

Tanking is a matter of responsibility, with the party pivoting around you. If one can't own to that responsibility and do his best to make the experience of the whole party as smooth as possible, then he should probably look into another job.

Sorry, but that's how tanking works. It's not something you do just because it's "cool" to prance around with sword and shield and heavy armor.

Paying a monthly fee doesn't give anyone the right to make an hour of the life of three other people miserable, IMHO.