Dear Healers that don't DPS in dungeons

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Originally Posted by LiadansWhisper

That's great.

I've encountered healers at 50 who don't know what Esuna does.

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I just literally rofl'd... Thats soo bad.

Encountered a WHM that just keep going afk. Had to stop DPS just to spam heal the tank. I don't mind healing to help a little when I'm Deeps... but damn thats not what I DF'd for at that time. Icon is damn red. Not green.

We kept asking WHM to focus and we kept asking what she/he was doing to afk and she just completely ignored us. All she ever said was the following every time:
-OMG IM SO SORRY
-SH--T!!
-OOPS! SORRY!
-OMG DONT DIE!
-HEY WHERE ARE YOU GUYS?

Maybe a leecher? Not so sure....

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Originally Posted by Exstal

You can just not pay attention because it's so easy and do something else in the meantime?

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Isn't that what my Kindle is for?

I'm not sure I buy that argument that you shouldn't DPS because bad players exist. That's just a total race to the bottom, bad players will always exist. Sometimes you won't be able to maximize your class because you are held back so badly by the rest of your group. Furthermore, if it is *that* bad you probably will end up wiping anyway. As an example, I'm pretty close to full ilevel 90 - I'll be missing 4 pieces by next week.

I went to WP, and I couldn't even keep the tank up against the first large initial pull even blowing all 3 Lustrates, swiftcasting Adlo, ect. Thus, the run wasn't passable the way we targeted anyway.

However, in my experience, things like this is the exception not the rule.

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Originally Posted by LiadansWhisper

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You act like every single DF you have been in has been absolutely horrible. If that's the case, I feel sorry for you because your luck in that regard is beyond horrendous then.

If the party as a whole is well over geared, that healer should learn to DPS and stance dance. It's a perfect time to learn because they have the laid back opportunities to get used to the nuances of such a role. If the party is on par or undergeared, then the healer should focus primarily on their heals as they will most likely be needed in these scenarios, though throwing out the odd Aero here or there without Cleric's Stance will most likely not cause a wipe of any capacity.

The mark of a good healer is their adaptability and situational awareness.

The only way to get to that point is to learn and understand ALL aspects of their toolkits and when an appropriate time to use them is. I don't expect a new player to the MMO scene in general to understand that on the onset, but it certainly is something they should be striving for to become a better player for their party / FC / LS. Some people are just inherently bad and nothing you will do can change that. That will happen. But for the vast majority of players, they will be willing to listen if you have constructive advice for them and will want to learn and grow to be come better for themselves and their allies.

Usually lazy tanks that only have shield oath up prevent this from happening.

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Originally Posted by FinagleABagel

I went to WP, and I couldn't even keep the tank up against the first large initial pull even blowing all 3 Lustrates, swiftcasting Adlo, ect. Thus, the run wasn't passable the way we targeted anyway.

However, in my experience, things like this is the exception not the rule.

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This happened to me last night. The tank didn't want to be there, so he only had shield oath up, no other abilities to assist with that first pull.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

You act like every single DF you have been in has been absolutely horrible. If that's the case, I feel sorry for you because your luck in that regard is beyond horrendous then.

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Nah, that's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is that you can't just make a broad statement of one-size fits all. That's as silly as me saying that every DF group is terrible and has no idea what they're doing (which I didn't say, btw, I thought that was clear when I explaining the random nature of groups that you get). There has to be room for those players who a) aren't comfortable stepping out of their role and/or b) are getting truly horrible groups.

I'm an officer in a set of two Linkshells on my server designed to help players pug without having to queue randomly in the Duty Finder. The LS was started because of our bad experiences in the DF. But even with the LS, sometimes people aren't online, or so many are in dungeons that there aren't enough to make another group, or they're just busy, etc. So then the members might queue in the DF themselves, and, by god, the stories that they tell about their experiences. And this isn't just an occasional thing. This is a daily thing.

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If the party as a whole is well over geared, that healer should learn to DPS and stance dance. It's a perfect time to learn because they have the laid back opportunities to get used to the nuances of such a role. If the party is on par or undergeared, then the healer should focus primarily on their heals as they will most likely be needed in these scenarios, though throwing out the odd Aero here or there without Cleric's Stance will most likely not cause a wipe of any capacity.

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Tossing out dots isn't going to cause a wipe, no, unless your tank is at like, 20% health (in which case you'd have to ask "so...why did you do that again?"). But that's besides the point. My point is that your playstyle, and my playstyle, isn't going to work for every player. I'd rather players learn to heal, then slowly experiment with DPS as they get comfortable. At their own pace. Not trying to please nameless, faceless forum people who "know better" without ever having run with the groups that healer runs with.

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The only way to get to that point is to learn and understand ALL aspects of their toolkits and when an appropriate time to use them is. I don't expect a new player to the MMO scene in general to understand that on the onset, but it certainly is something they should be striving for to become a better player for their party / FC / LS. Some people are just inherently bad and nothing you will do can change that. That will happen. But for the vast majority of players, they will be willing to listen if you have constructive advice for them and will want to learn and grow to be come better for themselves and their allies.

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I understand where you're coming from, but I still maintain that the advice given by many on this forum is anything but constructive. Telling healers that they should be DPSing, regardless of their skill level, experience, or comfort, isn't constructive. Giving them ideas on when it's safe to DPS if they choose to do so? Constructive. Providing them with macros to help them safely swap in and out of cleric stance? Constructive. Telling someone who just isn't comfortable with DPSing that they should DPS in a random Duty Finder group? Really not constructive.

A good healer can dps without getting too much enmity, but I prefer just being lazy as well so i cast regen, drink some coffee and relax :D

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Originally Posted by LiadansWhisper

Nah, that's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is that you can't just make a broad statement of one-size fits all.

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I think the reverse to that is that you're also advocating a one-size fits all by promoting a pure healing aspect of healers. I understand the healer's primary role (it's written in their name), and that healing is their first priority, but the way you write your arguments seem to indicate that you should only heal and should not even remotely think about going beyond that scope when the capability to do so is there. I feel that's where a point of contention is with your argument (at least for me, that's where it is). [Continued below]

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Originally Posted by LiadansWhisper

Tossing out dots isn't going to cause a wipe, no, unless your tank is at like, 20% health (in which case you'd have to ask "so...why did you do that again?"). But that's besides the point. My point is that your playstyle, and my playstyle, isn't going to work for every player. I'd rather players learn to heal, then slowly experiment with DPS as they get comfortable. At their own pace. Not trying to please nameless, faceless forum people who "know better" without ever having run with the groups that healer runs with.

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As I've mentioned before, adaptability and situational awareness is the mark of a good healer. It's hard to encourage that kind of growth if you tell people to stay within a singular mind set. I'm not saying DPS all things until your tank dies, but I do want to promote an environment where people are willing to experiment and find their comfort level. If their comfort level involves them just healing, but they make a damn good healer in any instance they're in, then so be it. But at least they made the effort to try. That's what I would like to encourage from all healers, find that comfort zone and strive to achieve your primary goal.

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Originally Posted by LiadansWhisper

I understand where you're coming from, but I still maintain that the advice given by many on this forum is anything but constructive. Telling healers that they should be DPSing, regardless of their skill level, experience, or comfort, isn't constructive. Giving them ideas on when it's safe to DPS if they choose to do so? Constructive. Providing them with macros to help them safely swap in and out of cleric stance? Constructive. Telling someone who just isn't comfortable with DPSing that they should DPS in a random Duty Finder group? Really not constructive.

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I agree with this on so many levels. There are too many responses on the internet in general where it's "LOL YOU SUCK" when someone disagrees with you and hardly constructive at all.

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Originally Posted by Klive

Dear Tank that doesn't want dps,

Ok, I'll just do /follow and let my fairy handle this.

Love,
The Scholar

P.S.
Wake me when the run is over.

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I tried this once. Works wonders. Just saying if you don't want us to heal. Eos gots this.

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Originally Posted by LiadansWhisper

You get "comfortable" by running with a static group. Which most players don't end up doing until they hit 50.

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I did the opposite. I got comfortable by running with DF groups so that I got used to healing in non-ideal situations, which made the ideal situations just that much easier.

As a scholar, opening with Adlo pre-pull, then spamming EOS' Embrace at teh beginning of the fight leaves a TON of time for me to Cleric stance and cycle through my DOTs/Bane before I have to actually start healing. Healing is the priority, yes, but there is always alot of downtime between heals...esp for Scholar.

In some situations, I end up mitigating the outright *need* to heal more by DPSing. It sometimes happens where I am the top DPS too. SCH is...it's surprisingly powerful.

It's much, much more common for Eos to be able to main heal a WP/AK group than for me to have to spam heal the tank. It happens, it absolutely happens, where the tank can't handle it and needs more loving, and in those cases, yep, I abstain from DPS. In cases where Eos is totally on top of it? I'm not going to stand there and twiddle my thumbs. It's really that simple. If I did that, I would be standing there with full HP and MP because I literally have to do nothing.


It's already been said, but the hallmark of a good healer is precision adaptability. The best healer is one that can change to react to any situation at a moment's notice. Titan HM is a good benchmark for that kind of healer.

I think the bigger problem is that, unfortunately, this game makes it way too easy on healers until about Brayflox...and then if you can surpass THAT, Stone Vigil is your next wakeup call if you ignore the optional dungeons and that's not until around level 40! The game isn't teaching healers reactionary skills, and they NEED those. And that's why topics like this keep popping up; there are just way too many healers that had no idea what they were in for at the late to end game and parties suffer for it.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

I think the reverse to that is that you're also advocating a one-size fits all by promoting a pure healing aspect of healers.

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No, what I'm saying is that it's perfectly fine for a healer to do nothing but heal in a dungeon. That the choice to DPS should be left solely to the healer (outside of gimmick raid strats, of course), due to the differences in skill levels, gear, and experience between both healers and the groups they're in.

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Originally Posted by Rhindas

I think the bigger problem is that, unfortunately, this game makes it way too easy on healers until about Brayflox...and then if you can surpass THAT, Stone Vigil is your next wakeup call if you ignore the optional dungeons and that's not until around level 40! The game isn't teaching healers reactionary skills, and they NEED those. And that's why topics like this keep popping up; there are just way too many healers that had no idea what they were in for at the late to end game and parties suffer for it.

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I'm generally too busy tanking everything that the tank apparently can't keep threat on to worry about "reaction times" in those lower level dungeons. I'm not sure that they could make those dungeons any harder without making them impossible for many groups, given the behavior on the part of tanks, DPS, AND healers in lower level dungeons.

BTW, Brayflox isn't a difficult dungeon. It's the people you run with who make that place difficult.

I'll DPS if the Tank is controlling threat enmity well enough.

At L50 content - If I feel the threat/healing is being managed fine. I'll swap into Cleric stance and dps. In some cases, such as Holy in WP, I am actually saving on the need to heal by dpsing and AoE stunning mobs.

Yes, healing should be your main priority, but any decent healer is dpsing as much as they can to hasten the completion of the content.

As a Scholar I think it's really up to the healer to determine if they can handle it. If you are doing a speedrun where the tank is grabbing three stacks of enemies, you don't have time. Sometimes you need to be a dedicated healer. But if the tank isn't taking damage, it'd be silly not to DPS. I have access to all the skills I had as an Arcanist and stuff from WHM & BLM. Some of those are instant cast. It only takes a bit to throw up Cleric Stance, cast three instant spells, take off CS, and heal the one or two hits the Tank just took. This works really well against some bosses and casual enemies. Sometimes when there is only one or two enemies left, the Tank won't even take any damage. I like to DPS when I have that kind of downtime, otherwise I'd just be standing there doing nothing. Of course those players who refuse to heal give us all a bad name. If the party is taking damage, your job is ALWAYS to heal that damage. If you wanted to play a BLM or a SMN, then go play BLM or SMN.

Why do you want me to use Psyduck and Adlo in WP and AK when a manually embraced Eos can keep you topped just fine? Are you that bad?

Actually, when the game was first launched, healer have to DPS in WP for group to get away from Tonberry Slasher (before changes since Early Access till mid september) since you will almost 100% doing WP with Full AF + weapon ilv<50 (new players) or ilv52 (legacy players).

I only dps when the tanks aren't terrible.. (why do people not like to use cooldowns?)

Really? OP? You don't want your healer to dps and help making the run faster?
My main is a geared paladin, and also have a not-bad-geared whm/sch.

I love healers that dps in my runs, I hate those that does nothing but spam heals.. I don't need to be topped off 100% of the time, not to mention most of those heals are overheals.

That being said, when I play my healers, I tend to dps a lot. So if you tanks don't do your job and avoid dmg as you should... I will try to communicate with you about it, but if you intentionally eat those easily-avoidable dmg, I will probably leave or let you die.


ps: having healer overhealing you the whole time is bloody annoying.. also very noisy cuz you hear the heal every 2 sec or so...

As Scholar,

I DPS in coil.

I'll say it again, I DPS in COIL.

In most of the turns.

I don't pull threat, run out of mana, or nobody dies. I'm considered to be a great healer because I do this. Turn 2 and 4 are DPS races, my DPS helps this. So yeah... Stop telling healers to play poorly when in harder content their damage is considered an asset.

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Originally Posted by Klive

As Scholar,

I DPS in coil.

I'll say it again, I DPS in COIL.

In most of the turns.

I don't pull threat, run out of mana, or nobody dies. I'm considered to be a great healer because I do this. Turn 2 and 4 are DPS races, my DPS helps this. So yeah... Stop telling healers to play poorly when in harder content their damage is considered an asset.

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I think you misunderstood the OP <.<

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Originally Posted by Layla-chan

I think you misunderstood the OP <.<

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I didn't see his last edit. But oh well.