Boring design

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

The big question is, how does that actually change gameplay?
We don't know yet but for the examples you listed I'd argue there is no difference between getting a flashier version of your filler and medica 3, neither changes how the job plays, one just "looks" fancier.

Healers will still never use their new ability and tanks will still spam the same filler between bursts.

Just think of this. A lot of people have been asking for PvP combos on jobs like tanks, making their 1-2-3 filler into a single button. If that happens you're suddenly looking at tanks also just spamming the same button for something like 60% of a fight.
A lot of the gameplay difference is nothing but smoke and mirrors to make you think you're getting more interesting gameplay than you actually do.

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That’s what I’m saying there is a lot to be said about how impactful your rotation actually feels even if it’s smoke and mirrors, like if I gave you the option of getting the blades combo or giving you rampart 2 would you really prefer the latter just because the former is technically just a more visually pretty version of old Holy Spirit spam before confitier. This is of course also ignoring the fact that your normal tank rotation is 40-50% not 1-2-3, even if you ignore the 1-2-3 as 1-1-1 in disguise there is still a lot more complexity in tank kits than healer kits

You can argue (and I mostly agree) that jobs need something that actually changes their playstyle ever since things have become so flat and beige since ShB but given the design space we are in I’ll take the blades combo over 5 more potency on broil

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

That’s what I’m saying there is a lot to be said about how impactful your rotation actually feels even if it’s smoke and mirrors, like if I gave you the option of getting the blades combo or giving you rampart 2 would you really prefer the latter just because the former is technically just a more visually pretty version of old Holy Spirit spam before confitier.

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It would depend. If Rampart 2 actually opened up some new gameplay options I'd gladly take it over a flashier version of "more of the same", even if it had no visual effect at all, but I also know I would be in the minority.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

You can argue (and I mostly agree) that jobs need something that actually changes their playstyle ever since things have become so flat and beige since ShB but given the design space we are in I’ll take the blades combo over 5 more potency on broil

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This is what makes me question why they so vehemently refuse to give healers more dps abilities. They could absolutely apply the same design principle to healer dps to make it "feel" like you're doing more without actually making you do more. Probably would've quietened some of the complaints for a while, but instead they choose to stubbornly cling to the same design philosophy that has been proven to not work.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

They could absolutely apply the same design principle to healer dps to make it "feel" like you're doing more without actually making you do more.

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Is that not part of the problem, though? That SE doesn't want to make healers "feel" like they have to do DPS? And in that view, I'd guess that "more buttons" vs. "more animations" are just two sides of the same coin.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

But somehow this always succeeds in distracting people, make the animation and VFX flashy and suddenly everyone ignores how braindead the new ability actually is.
Warrior is the biggest example of this phenomenon. Most people consider a job that has to work for nothing and gets a majority of it's damage from just being able to press a cooldown every 60 seconds "well designed", it's baffling to me.

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I mean, a lot of people seem to consider SMN to be a well-designed DPS job, and we all know SMN plays closer to a healer than a DPS.

You ask what people like about SMN though, and all they can tell you is "It feels like a summoner". Just like when you ask people what they like about WAR and they say "I don't have to care about the healer". Neither of these jobs are ever praised for their job design (or rather lack thereof).

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Originally Posted by Aravell

You ask what people like about SMN though, and all they can tell you is "It feels like a summoner".

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Whenever someone says this, i get irritated. If these people just waited and didn't WAR their way out to gut pet management off the job, we could have gotten it anyway while having functioning pets.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

Is that not part of the problem, though? That SE doesn't want to make healers "feel" like they have to do DPS? And in that view, I'd guess that "more buttons" vs. "more animations" are just two sides of the same coin.

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With the current design direction they pretty much are, because new skills are rarely anything more than either spammable filler or "press to do X potency" with either a gauge cost that you build up within 120 seconds or it's fire-and-forget with a divisor of 120 as a cooldown.

I guess it's time to introduce Addendum: Black and Addendum: White on SCH so when addendum: black is active, broil iv becomes broil v, etc while being in addendum: white increases the barrier given by adlo and succor, etc.

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Originally Posted by rawker

I guess it's time to introduce Addendum: Black and Addendum: White on SCH so when addendum: black is active, broil iv becomes broil v, etc while being in addendum: white increases the barrier given by adlo and succor, etc.

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I would LOVE to have FFXIV's scholar take some inspiration from the FFXI iteration. Stance dancing with addendums, kaustra/embrava, helixes, actual stratagems. So much stuff, so many varied mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

The fairy... Not derpy enough for derplander

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9.0 Eos gets a gun.

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Originally Posted by rawker

I guess it's time to introduce Addendum: Black and Addendum: White on SCH so when addendum: black is active, broil iv becomes broil v, etc while being in addendum: white increases the barrier given by adlo and succor, etc.

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This is basically Cleric Stance but SCH themed and I like it. Although wouldn't having a DPS and healer stance make more thematic sense on SGE? XI SCH seems pretty cool from what little I played of it, so I wouldn't mind SCH having it instead though.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

I would LOVE to have FFXIV's scholar take some inspiration from the FFXI iteration. Stance dancing with addendums, kaustra/embrava, helixes, actual stratagems. So much stuff, so many varied mechanics.

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Could you elaborate on what some of those do?