Paladin needs to be overhauled

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

To your suggestion - putting Stun on Intervene as they originally intended would make Paladin a lot more powerful than it already is in higher ranks and definitely good in lower ranks, even when Shield Bash is gone. That is a 10s CD on a stun of which you can hold 2. That's kinda broken.
I can see why you want Holy Spirit back, but I genuinely don't see it doing more than 8000 dmg unless there are some conditionals such as Sacred Claim damage bonus.

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so why not just increase the CD to 15? or would that be broken despite WAR having an aoe stun that has the same recast as current sheildbash. Hell if it makes you feel better they could give 15s intervene the stun affect along with an aniation lock of sheildbash and id prefer that over current

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Originally Posted by Jettinson

It means that if your party hits any enemy that has the Sacred Clem debuff, they will also benefit from the healing, allowing more party sustain overall.

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ok this im aware of but for some reason to me it sounded like you were saying PLD gets heals from ally attacks under sacred claim, my apologies

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Originally Posted by Nanne

Is this about FL or CC or overall?

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overall prior to 6.1 PLD could solo kill in duels had great utility in FL and Feast

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Originally Posted by RyanCousland

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Ok for starters, please just edit your post and add additional quotes + comments. This circumvents the 3000 character limit from the initial post and condenses everything in one comment.

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Originally Posted by RyanCousland

Cover IS dependent on your teammates skill these are not mutually exclusive thereby making cover THE issue, and when you say "stick around" how exactly do you think that scenario plays out? is PLD doing damage or sacrifices damage for futile attempt to survive? or is the teammate using this opportunity to heal or do damage? how many opponents are there? if you havent played through these scenarios let alone thought about them then i can tell you it always ends with same results, and if what im inferring from your statement that the 20y is a time saver (to an extent) and the tether is 10y to maintain then yeah im aware of that, the running around part i mentioned was in reference to maintain that 10y connection, and my original point to your "remedy" was how does a 20y gap closer animation lock out weigh the time it takes for cover's effect to be useful/activate? (especially if your teammate has any Debuffs/DOTS on them)

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I believe you misunderstood what I am saying. I never said they are mutually exclusive - I said that if your teammate is the one running away while you already used cover (and hopefully used a macro for it with "Covering <teammate>!" in it) then you did your part, Cover in what the ability is supposed to be did its part and your teammate is the one being the issue.

I never said anything about sticking around with a teammate who is clearly overextending. If they dive a backline alone and get gobbled up by four teammates or decide to not retreat in a 2v4/2v5 scenario with you, shame on them because you shouldn't Cover that and rather run to ensure your LB charges up.

And before you assume and lecture me about situations with Cover and how animations about it may pan out, I actually play Paladin along with Dark Knight as my main jobs in PvP. The dash animation lock isn't so utterly damning as you make it out to be. For an ability of this caliber to give your teammate a second chance in life, the short wind-up is fair. I simply got used to it by reacting earlier rather than later.

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Originally Posted by RyanCousland

I'm pretty sure i made it clear that im aware of how to use cover, but perhaps i didnt expand in detail the issue with each of these combinations
1: its obvious any PLD would use cover and LB but again cover is useless if it exceeds 10y(and please dont repeat the LB line because this is about cover)
2: Guard and cover is a dps loss as well as a hindrance in mobility
3: HS and cover only works well depending on the matchup of how many opponents youre facing (2v4 is death sentence for PLD with cover because realistically its 1v4)

im aware of PLD toolkit but its seems youre arguments are coming from a perfect play mentality/scenarios in which im not sure how PVP is in EU or JP but in NA it is rarely that
also im not even going to get into the fact that cover is the only skill that cant be used in 1v1

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I am glad you made it sure you know, but frankly I will have to repeat certain things since you can't talk about Cover one-dimensionally since it is a synergy-based ability.
1.) Once again, your teammates have skill issues. If your covered teammate insists on running away, that's on them not you.
2.) This isn't PvE, Paladin DPS doesn't matter as much as you want it does and a DPS loss by using Guardian-Guard is smaller than a DPS loss from either you or your teammate dying because that costs your team 15s+ LB charge time + about 20s or more of damage downtime from one player over 5s you not dpsing. If you care this much about your damage, you should give Dark Knight or Gunbreaker a serious consideration.
3.) Correct, this one is match-up dependent, though I kind of expected to not having to mention it.

About intended/perfect play - I am sorry to tell you this, but looking at any abilities through the scope of the average player or the lowest common denominator is generally bad practice at job balancing. Just because your region may have a surplus of such players does not mean you should balance abilities around them.

Also no offense, "I am not even going to get into the fact that cover can't be used in 1v1" yeah no, this is like complaining SCH damage is low in 1v1 because you can't spread dots or damage buffs. Certain jobs are not made for 1v1.

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Originally Posted by RyanCousland

My comparison was in response to you saying cover now is "broken" when compared to pre 6.1, HG + cover had the invul as well as the mobility that is currently lacking

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Hallowed also had +30s/+60s(pre-buff) the cooldown of Guard, Cover had a +20% dmg taken if they attacked you directly and there was no Elixir your teammate could make use of in the cover time. Also your own life tended to be relatively important as a medal carrier, particularly when Heavy Medal debuff was still around. You also were constantly duking it out as the objective were the players themselves in rather small arenas, so the mobility wasn't as great as you'd try to tell me.

If this is about Frontline/Rival Wings, fair enough. Then again, jobs never got balanced around those modes - at most they got terrible interactions fixed (Phalanx + Cover on Onsal capping).

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Originally Posted by RyanCousland

[1]Name me another LB in which you can disregard half of its utility/purpose because thats what this response sounds like however i might be wrong in inferring [2] also Contradance is a counter not the other way around much like RPR. [3] And the idea that this LB is S tier is misnomer if it were the case then there would be more PLD players but there is not, aside from the Onsal period. PLD is at the bottom in terms of player usage

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1.) First of all - you aren't disregarding half of the purpose, you are just having it delayed. If you actually got CCed for 10s, had no Purify for it and had "Blade of Faith ready" run out then that is tough but again I fail to see why people would waste their stuns on you like this.
2.) The order of use matters here. An aggressive Contradance gets countered by Phalanx, a Contradance tail-ending the duration of Phalanx counters Phalanx. Tenebrae Lemurum (RPR) spreads out players and blocks actions with Hysteria. You either use it before the Paladin manages to use Phalanx or tail-end it after Phalanx. Otherwise you use either of it mid-way defensively as an AOE "silence".

In terms of general practice though, Phalanx generally is used after Contradance, as the animation starting and Charmed applying being delayed from another, which is where Paladins use it.
3.) Phalanx is S-tier utility. It is unparalleled defensive value both for pushing or holding a point as a team. Your argument about player usage makes no sense, as the average player is drawn to high damage numbers and popping off over being a support - it does not lessen how strong this ability let alone Paladin is.

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Originally Posted by RyanCousland

I bring it up all the time because i get the same response ....all....the...time,even your reply can be found if you scroll up but in other words lets gatekeep PLD as the sacrificial lamb, is that your point? because theres multiple scenarios in which using chain stun method on the Lamb doesnt move the needle for W or has the opposite result for a L

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"Gatekeep PLD as the sacrificial lamb" - ...what? Your job design with Cover in it literally is using your own life to protect another. If you get chain stunned from Covering a teammate, you saved a teammate and wasted a team a ton of stuns. You could also use Purify along with it so you WOULDN'T get chain stunned. And if you get stunned without Cover during Phalanx... then I am sorry, but you baiting those stuns is like the greatest W a tank in any game could hope for. Do you have any idea how many people might be thankful that they hit you and not them?

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Originally Posted by RyanCousland

so why not just increase the CD to 15? or would that be broken despite WAR having an aoe stun that has the same recast as current sheildbash. Hell if it makes you feel better they could give 15s intervene the stun affect along with an aniation lock of sheildbash and id prefer that over current

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I fail to see the point of this addition. You essentially only just moved Shield Bash onto Intervene to make "space" for Holy Spirit and giving it Shield Bash's cooldown. That is just making your stun more predictable and less flexible when you want to be mobile but keep your stun.

It would be smarter attaching "Requiescat" as a proc after Confiteor and Confiteor turning into Holy Spirit/Circle for 2-3 uses, if you really want it back.

Like I'm sorry if I am on a huge disagreement with you, but what I am understanding is you are either wanting Paladin to do more than it should or your view on how good Paladin's kit is skewed because your teammates genuinely drag you down. I mentioned this earlier and it is really not meant with malice - consider dropping Paladin for another job if you can't enjoy for what it is worth.

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Originally Posted by RyanCousland

i would say guardian is the exact opposite of broken considering its a damage multiplier for the enemy team, your not only taking damage as the pld but your taking damage for your team mate and in no way does the fallacy of its healing potency make up for the amount of damage output unless its used with LB however even if this comes into play it doesnt negate the fact people still run thereby rendering guardian useless, this is a strawman argument

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You don't want to use Guardian without Guard on yourself. Unless you feel like trading your life for somebody else is worth it, but odds are you both are gonna die because if you drop fast, the cover will also go before the team mate gets out of trouble.

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Originally Posted by RyanCousland

I recommend reading my response to the other person who posted the same reaction, because its one i hear constantly and yet when i respond with the issue of chain and othe LB cancellation ive yet to hear a rebuttal, its always the same but if in the event you decide not view it ill repeat what good does covering someone who runs? what good is the healing if your chain stunned or under the affect of another LB?

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PLD is like a lot of support jobs in pvp. If your team mates suck, it's on them, not on you nor on the power of the ability. At least PLD is invulnerable during the LB, unlike other jobs like DNC, SGE, SMN, BLM etc. On the opposite of those, you cannot shut down a PLD under Phalanx.

If you get chain stunned after your invuln, use Purify? Keep it ready before using the LB if possible. You know how purify works when it cleanses a debuff right? (and if you're referring to polymorph, then yeah, that ability can go to hell, but it's not just a PLD issue either)

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Originally Posted by RyanCousland

there seems to be a common misapprehension that i want PLD to do more damage despite saying i played it in shb where it was considered pretty weak in dps, what im saying is theres too many cons vs the pros of PLD and yes that goes for its LB too

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PLD was actually one of the best if not the best AoE tank in ShB. I should know, I kept having the best damage tallies in feast up to diamond. Confiteor was just that good for it.

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Originally Posted by RyanCousland

so why not just increase the CD to 15? or would that be broken despite WAR having an aoe stun that has the same recast as current sheildbash. Hell if it makes you feel better they could give 15s intervene the stun affect along with an aniation lock of sheildbash and id prefer that over current

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Shieldbash's pro compared to Primal Rend is that one is instant, the other one has an insane animation delay and is also used for WAR's primary damage output. Shieldbash performs a lot better at securing kills, while Primal Rend is better at applying team pressure. They're not used exactly identically, and both shine at different things. I could see how one would see shieldbash as inferior if they're not using it to specifically hit targets out of resources in the shins when it will make them dead with a 99% probability.

I have a big fat crush on all good plds in cc, i was saved so often by cover.
Many good plds use some sort if cover-macro so the covered person is aware of it.

The stun is incredibly annoying to go against, but plds using it in an 1o1 is kinda stupid.
Most stuns are supposed to help your teammates

The lb can turn tides so hard in a lockout situation because guess what?
Stunning you is wasting their cc and 10 seconds for your people to come back + guard time is an incredible amount of time to regroup while the pld is annoying as hell and eats enemy rescourced.

Damage does not matter that much for pld and i have seen many plds just finish off enemies as help. Assists count too

I love good plds so much, please hold my hand while you annoy the enemy team, please

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Originally Posted by Cheremia

I have a big fat crush on all good plds in cc, i was saved so often by cover.
Many good plds use some sort if cover-macro so the covered person is aware of it.

The stun is incredibly annoying to go against, but plds using it in an 1o1 is kinda stupid.
Most stuns are supposed to help your teammates

The lb can turn tides so hard in a lockout situation because guess what?
Stunning you is wasting their cc and 10 seconds for your people to come back + guard time is an incredible amount of time to regroup while the pld is annoying as hell and eats enemy rescourced.

Damage does not matter that much for pld and i have seen many plds just finish off enemies as help. Assists count too

I love good plds so much, please hold my hand while you annoy the enemy team, please

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100% this. As an avid DRK player, Paladins have supported my playstyle tremendously. Confiteor gives me a third of my HP cost back, Cover lets me bail or Elixir after engaging aggressively and Shield Bash makes up for my lack of stun.

Let alone Phalanx which turned seemingly lost engagements into a massive chance.

Stay strong PLD chads.

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Originally Posted by Valence

You don't want to use Guardian without Guard on yourself. Unless you feel like trading your life for somebody else is worth it, but odds are you both are gonna die because if you drop fast, the cover will also go before the team mate gets out of trouble.

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It really depends. Sometimes it's mostly just about soaking that stun or poly so that your teammate can keep healing or attacking, and it doesn't matter what happens afterwards. If you're initiating for your team, you probably have to use guard defensively before using Guardian. Ideally PLD doesn't solo initiate, but with how flooded low ranks are with ranged players that are terrified of touching the crystal...