[Sage] Fixing Toxikon

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I think there's a hell of a lot of overthinking going on here.
Ultimately GCD healing is inefficient but sometimes necessary, and Toxicon is a tool for partially refunding the cost of a GCD heal. Partially being the keyword, because if it was a full refund, then GCD healing wouldn't be a sub optimal choice and there would be no weight to your choice to use them.

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Why shouldn't it be optimal? Both SCH and SGE are barrier healers who... don't barrier heal. Why is it okay that oGCD heals which aren't tied to any resource (mostly) are fine being optimal heals for DPS than the GCD Heals which are tied to a resource, a resource our class exclusive Materia is built around. Toxicon being MP negative would still deter people from spamming it over and over the only difference is that we wouldn't be punished for pro-active barrier healing like we currently are.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I think there's a hell of a lot of overthinking going on here.
Ultimately GCD healing is inefficient but sometimes necessary, and Toxicon is a tool for partially refunding the cost of a GCD heal. Partially being the keyword, because if it was a full refund, then GCD healing wouldn't be a suboptimal choice and there would be no weight to your choice to use them.

Toxicon could do with a minor potency buff, to make it marginally more useful in single target contexts, but that's about it.

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Well firstly, it's actually not a refund because it's the same potency as Dosis III, therefore you're not actually gaining any partial amount of DPS unlike with Ruin II or Afflatus Misery. GCD healing is inefficient but sometimes necessary, yes; however, Sage's kit is built in such a way that E. Diagnosis is so far down the food chain that you're realistically never going to be in a situation where it's the best choice for your remaining tools. The only way to actually get value out of Toxikon is to gain stacks during prepull and phase changes, which as has been said, is a valid way to take advantage of the resource.

I'm not really trying to say that Toxikon is failing at doing specifically that, but the idea of a resource that you have maybe 3 of across an entire fight because generating more requires one of the least optimal plays you could possibly perform mid-combat is just a disappointing mechanic.

If anyone wants to call it whining, then fine, but I stand by my original statement that the existing Addersting system is best described as inoffensive, lukewarm, and tolerable--none being words I am personally willing to settle for silently.

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

Why shouldn't it be optimal? Both SCH and SGE are barrier healers who... don't barrier heal. Why is it okay that oGCD heals which aren't tied to any resource (mostly) are fine being optimal heals for DPS than the GCD Heals which are tied to a resource, a resource our class exclusive Materia is built around. Toxicon being MP negative would still deter people from spamming it over and over the only difference is that we wouldn't be punished for pro-active barrier healing like we currently are.

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I agree, if anything toxikon as an oGCD would finally push people to use GCD heals, something SE has been somewhat wanting to do for ages. DPS remains the same and it might seem too strong on the healing side but as you said its mp cost would deter people and it would in fact add layer of depth as you would finally need to manage (or at least a little more) that pink resource.

This would definitely make the job much more appealing and feel busier with Eukrasia+GCD+Toxikon, almost like a combo (and we'd get to see more of this badass animation).

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Originally Posted by Teno

I agree, if anything toxikon as an oGCD would finally push people to use GCD heals, something SE has been somewhat wanting to do for ages. DPS remains the same and it might seem too strong on the healing side but as you said its mp cost would deter people and it would in fact add layer of depth as you would finally need to manage (or at least a little more) that pink resource.

This would definitely make the job much more appealing and feel busier with Eukrasia+GCD+Toxikon, almost like a combo (and we'd get to see more of this badass animation).

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This doesn't solve the problem. GCD healing feels bad because you're only doing it for a DPS skill. Taking it off the GCD only forces it to be another DPS skill to be used on CD. Look at Aetherflow and Energy Drain debacle, you're squeezing out as many EDs as your kit will allow. Taking it away only makes the job feel clunky and punishing since you want to drop stacks for MP refresh as well. Tying healing to damage has not worked for SCH and the devs have been trying to delete it but only to bring back ED because without it, it's just overheal.

Same will go for SGE if they let Toxicon use Addersgall as a resource. It's 100% healthier for the job if they kept both of those resources separate.

I agree with some others, getting it through Rhizomata would make using it worthwhile since it generally sits there sometimes. That means you get a healing stack and a movement dps tool every 90s. I like that it's there for movement, but forcing GCD healing only turns it into a Misery situation where it's not worth it unless HAVE to use it which most of the time you can just use Taurchole or Haima. At least with WHM's limited oGCD kit, using a lily isn't the end of the world as its a direct heal with ST and AoE variants as opposed to a single target shield that will fall off.

Make Toxikon damage neutral would be a start... the only i reason use it only at the beginning or in downtime is because i loose dps if i farm addersting.
And the better step would be make a diffrent trigger for addersting and done - it is good but beeing a full gcd is the problem in the end similar to the whm problem with the Lilys.
FOr me the only problem is the dps loss. Ekrasia+Diagnosis and the shield breaks is a lot for simple movement spell trigger.

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Originally Posted by elioaiko

This doesn't solve the problem. GCD healing feels bad because you're only doing it for a DPS skill. Taking it off the GCD only forces it to be another DPS skill to be used on CD. Look at Aetherflow and Energy Drain debacle, you're squeezing out as many EDs as your kit will allow. Taking it away only makes the job feel clunky and punishing since you want to drop stacks for MP refresh as well. Tying healing to damage has not worked for SCH and the devs have been trying to delete it but only to bring back ED because without it, it's just overheal.

Same will go for SGE if they let Toxicon use Addersgall as a resource. It's 100% healthier for the job if they kept both of those resources separate.

I agree with some others, getting it through Rhizomata would make using it worthwhile since it generally sits there sometimes. That means you get a healing stack and a movement dps tool every 90s. I like that it's there for movement, but forcing GCD healing only turns it into a Misery situation where it's not worth it unless HAVE to use it which most of the time you can just use Taurchole or Haima. At least with WHM's limited oGCD kit, using a lily isn't the end of the world as its a direct heal with ST and AoE variants as opposed to a single target shield that will fall off.

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Yes but the issue with scholar is that there is a conflict between using the resource for dps and for healing. With oGCD Toxikon it would be dps neutral, drain your mp "fast" and still require an addersting.

It would still retain its use as a movement tool since you would be using diagnosis on the move to generate that addersting, and it would remain largely unused otherwise due to its total mp cost, when there's no healing required. A player who knows when healing is required would still be spamming dosis most of the time. That's how I see it.

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Originally Posted by elioaiko

This doesn't solve the problem. GCD healing feels bad because you're only doing it for a DPS skill. Taking it off the GCD only forces it to be another DPS skill to be used on CD. Look at Aetherflow and Energy Drain debacle, you're squeezing out as many EDs as your kit will allow. Taking it away only makes the job feel clunky and punishing since you want to drop stacks for MP refresh as well. Tying healing to damage has not worked for SCH and the devs have been trying to delete it but only to bring back ED because without it, it's just overheal.

Same will go for SGE if they let Toxicon use Addersgall as a resource. It's 100% healthier for the job if they kept both of those resources separate.

I agree with some others, getting it through Rhizomata would make using it worthwhile since it generally sits there sometimes. That means you get a healing stack and a movement dps tool every 90s. I like that it's there for movement, but forcing GCD healing only turns it into a Misery situation where it's not worth it unless HAVE to use it which most of the time you can just use Taurchole or Haima. At least with WHM's limited oGCD kit, using a lily isn't the end of the world as its a direct heal with ST and AoE variants as opposed to a single target shield that will fall off.

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How would it be anything like ED? ED is flawed because it shares the same resource as a good chunk of SCH's healing kit. Unlike SGE, you don't have to spend your AF stacks to press the AF button again and get your 20% mana. Playing SCH without ED is purely a "it feels wasteful to press AF while still having stacks" problem even though you aren't really wasting anything. You gain nothing from spending those leftover stacks and even back in 5.0 people suggested the remaining stacks would convert to extra MP but the devs care so little about healers they'd rather bring back an ability that makes Scholars leveling experience absolutely wild for new players thanks to the SMN rework in 5.0. Time to play Arcanist, get ED at level 10 forget it exists at level 30, remember it exists at level 45 but this time it works completely different. The more i think about the more my 5.0 SCH hate fever comes back up.

Sage technically has a much bigger need for a addersgall spender but i'd much rather it doesn't get one. A skill that converts Addersgall to Addersting would be preferable in the current iteration because Toxicon isn't a DPS gain in it's current form like ED. You can Press that conversion skill 3 times and gain nothing but 21% MP because pressing Toxicon over Dosis gives you nothing but 1.5s shorter cast time. Even when talking about Dyskrasia the DPS gain of using Toxicon over that is tiny but in dungeons you actually wanna use Addersgall for you healing skills since they come with good mitigation and keeping 10% mitigation for 45s thanks to 2 Addersgall skills cooldowns lining up is what probably makes SGE the best Dungeon healer right now. (also in dungeon using Toxicon without DPS loss comes up more frequently than raids).

Taking the different approach Teno suggested. Toxicon being oGCD would remove it as a movement button but it would just be damage neutral and since you can carry 3 stacks there is no reason to press it on cooldown, meaning you can keep it for burst phases. It'd literally just give you the damage back you lost on using E.Diagionis in every other scenario. I personally don't like that idea simply because it would make Sage less mobile. Yes, it's already the most mobile healer but being able to reliably use Toxicon for movement rather than Phlegma would be preferable even if the current system of using Toxicon being used as a last ditch effort due to Phlegma + Icarus not being enough is technically a more interesting movement optimization system.

The only thing wrong about the "Misery Situation" is that Afflatus Misery lacks 340 potency to be DPS neutral. If it was literally nobody would complain about using Lilies to heal and not having many oGCD's on WHM. And this thread is trying to fix the exact same issue Toxicon is facing. It's simply not worth interacting with Toxicon mid-fight because its 165 potency and doing the 330 potency attack & using Druochole is just a better solution to the problem. It's simply not worth interacting with Misery because its 225 potency and doing the 310 potency attack & using Tetra is just a better solution to the problem.

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

Why shouldn't it be optimal? Both SCH and SGE are barrier healers who... don't barrier heal. Why is it okay that oGCD heals which aren't tied to any resource (mostly) are fine being optimal heals for DPS than the GCD Heals which are tied to a resource, a resource our class exclusive Materia is built around. Toxicon being MP negative would still deter people from spamming it over and over the only difference is that we wouldn't be punished for pro-active barrier healing like we currently are.

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I might be reading a little too much in between the lines here but the problem with an upside (or break even) to GCD healing is that GCD healing then becomes optimal or "easy" and you end up just gcd healing everything not worrying about oGCD timer/resource management at all. It greatly reduces the skill ceiling and would most likely make the healers even more boring to play.
You could add timers and management to GCD healing (afflatus) but then it becomes pretty much the same as what we have now with oGCDs (which was also what afflatus was before, an oGCD substitute).
The entire shift is actually much harder to make now that there is NO cost to oGCD healing. That was IMO, the biggest mistake they made this expac. It's fine if it's a niche thing on one healer, but now it's all of them.

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

Why is it okay that oGCD heals which aren't tied to any resource (mostly) are fine being optimal heals for DPS than the GCD Heals which are tied to a resource, a resource our class exclusive Materia is built around.

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Because oGCD's come with a cooldown, thus requiring some thought or planning on encounters with higher damage, while GCD heals can be spammed mindlessly as long as you have the mana. Our "class exclusive Materia is a joke too. Piety is a "just incase" stat we're forced to prog with and impossible to balance because every point of mana you have over 0 at the end of a fight is wasted stats.

If Toxicon was optimal you might as well ignore half your single target oGCD kit and just EDiag whenever someone needs single target healing. It's not engaging gameplay.
An oGCD Toxicon would push you to bank 3 Stings for every buff window. You'd also have to burn all Stings before intermissions, then EDiag 3 people ready for the raidwide when the boss came back or you'd suffer up to nearly 1k dps loss. It wouldn't encourage more GCD heals, it'd be a dps tool to be optimized.

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

The only thing wrong about the "Misery Situation" is that Afflatus Misery lacks 340 potency to be DPS neutral. If it was literally nobody would complain about using Lilies to heal and not having many oGCD's on WHM.

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Depends on downtime. If the boss is going to vanish at any point in the fight, you want to bank 3 Lilies instead of healing with them. In dungeons it's optimal to burn lilies while the tank is pulling mobs, not when they've stopped. Lilies are also a straight up loss near the end of a fight. You have to end with the Blood Lily on 0 or you lost potency.
Misery is a mess in more ways than losing 85 potency per lily.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Because oGCD's come with a cooldown, thus requiring some thought or planning on encounters with higher damage, while GCD heals can be spammed mindlessly as long as you have the mana. Our "class exclusive Materia is a joke too. Piety is a "just incase" stat we're forced to prog with and impossible to balance because every point of mana you have over 0 at the end of a fight is wasted stats.

If Toxicon was optimal you might as well ignore half your single target oGCD kit and just EDiag whenever someone needs single target healing. It's not engaging gameplay.
An oGCD Toxicon would push you to bank 3 Stings for every buff window. You'd also have to burn all Stings before intermissions, then EDiag 3 people ready for the raidwide when the boss came back or you'd suffer up to nearly 1k dps loss. It wouldn't encourage more GCD heals, it'd be a dps tool to be optimized.



Depends on downtime. If the boss is going to vanish at any point in the fight, you want to bank 3 Lilies instead of healing with them. In dungeons it's optimal to burn lilies while the tank is pulling mobs, not when they've stopped. Lilies are also a straight up loss near the end of a fight. You have to end with the Blood Lily on 0 or you lost potency.
Misery is a mess in more ways than losing 85 potency per lily.

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This is why I think it would be much better for Toxikon to stay GCD, increase in potency to 660, but just have a cooldown of 30 seconds with 2 charges. In this case, there's a small amount of banking you'd perform, but you can very easily just do that by casting E. Diagnosis on the main tank and they'll break the shield rather quickly. We already try and start with as many stacks as possible during prepull, and it increases burst potential (thus potentially requiring a drop in potency for Dosis and Toxikon to something like 300 and 600 respectively), and from there, it's more of a trickling maintenance where you want to keep your stacks filled, but can't burn through them fast enough to make you lean on E. Diagnosis exclusively.