Then why does Dark Knight, need more fixes on this?Quote:
Originally Posted by saber_alter
My question is this, Paladin has had no self mitigation upgrades till Endwalker, all in the past stuck with 2 cooldowns, guaranteed shield block, and Intervention which cannot be used on it's self. It handled Dungeons, EX trials, Savage raids, Ultimates without much issues tanking over Drk/War/Gnb when needed, not preferably, E3S/E8S specially attacked both tanks permanently, TEA phase 2 attacks both tanks. Why does Dark Knight suddenly need more mitigation when it really isn't the problem? Micela is very correct the sustain is over the top and needs bringing down.
Drk absorb hp, or mp, why was this nerfed
Printable View
-
12-25-2021, 10:26 AMUndeadfire
-
12-25-2021, 10:31 AMLuin
Abyssal Drain and Carve&Spit were likely put on the same recast to reduce double weaves.
But Equilibrium being a 2200 potency heal isn't? The initial 1200p of Equil is even buffed by Thrill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Undeadfire
Adding a Cure potency to Carve&Spit is irrelevant. Holding C&S for the heal would be a damage loss. If it were 1000p heal, it'd still be the weakest tank selfheal. And every tank's healing can crit, even HoTs.
There are no Endwalker dungeons with an 11+ mob pull for AD to beat Equilibrium, or at least I can't remember any. For a healing tool that can only be used in dungeons, it's the weakest tank heal in dungeons.Quote:
Originally Posted by ssunny2008
-
12-25-2021, 10:43 AMDeceptusPaladins have a 1000 potency heal on a 25s cooldown (Holy Sheltron).Quote:
Originally Posted by Undeadfire
Warriors have a 1200 potency heal on a 60s Cooldown (Equilibrium)
Gunbreakers have a 1200 potency heal on a 30s cooldown (Aurora) at 60s recharging every 30s.
Hydaelyn forbid that Dark Knights get a decent self heal outside of TBN. -
12-25-2021, 10:45 AMLuinWarrior's Equilibrium is 1200p initial heal and 1000 hot, for 2200 total.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deceptus
Gunbreaker's Aurora is a 60s recast, it stacks twice. Stacking has no effect on recast. It is not a 30s cd. -
12-25-2021, 10:58 AMssunny2008Yeah they happen, but this got already kept in mind in kind of the overall dungeon balancing. The content is not even casual, it´s braindead, meanwhile healers and tanks are able to solo the most stuff. DPS are the only ones who needs to be carried somehow. You´ve a lot of possibilities, you can outgear the whole dungeon, you can pull less, and and and...Quote:
Originally Posted by saber_alter
That the content or class balancing should go from "highly broken tanks + braindead content" to "super duper extreme broken tanks + zombie-mode content" is a no-go. Imo the whole topics everywhere are just about "Please make everything broken, DRK isn´t as broken as WAR imo, pls change." Of course ppl use other words, but it lasts like this.
And seriously it doesn´t make sense to throw healers and the overall tank-competence out of the window, because we would´ve 4 tanks sitting on 123 gameplay with emergency-buttons for the whole group. If a bunch of ppl would actually put a bare minimum efford in their jobs instead of relying on broken kits, they could also have fun running through dungeons.
Balancing is a hard step, i know. But in kind of FF14 it´s not balancing, it´s just homogenization and overtuning to prepare for the WORST worst cases of all time and to make the classes "more accessible" like everyone would be 3 or 80 years old. (Just saying healer LB3, when they normally don´t even use their whole kit.)
And the "community" assists that kind of homogenization. Pretty much any feedback is more like "Why DRK is not like WAR in self-sustain?, Why does MNK has no gapclosers like SAM?, Why does BLM don´t have a rezz?" and so on. Everything have to be perfect aligned and scripted, needs to be broken and easy to use. This is a nightmare for the gameplay.
That´s highly opinion-based, especially the last statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by saber_alter
DRK´s invul might be somehow special, but it has actually the best design and all of them are somehow balanced out throuth the use-time and cooldown. Invul is a superior tool and in kind of DRK you´re going to think twice about "should i use it?", unless you´re a WHM with benediction ready. That´s how such superior surviving-tools should work. Not like e.g. PLD Hallowed Ground, which can carry whole raids whrough badass mechanics with a tethered heal + LB3 or is just used because it has no cons.
And if you take the healing tools from others away, DRK should be superior. All of them has the 3 same defs aka Reprisal, Rampant and the 30% hard cd. Then all of them share one unique def, but that´s it.
PLD is already going to lose since any other defs assists only his group members and he needs to be healed to make use of one of them. The other 3 share a 60s cooldown, which is so far balanced throughout the kit and better / worse based on the situation. GNB is the only one with an extra cd, meanwhile PLD has a blockchance. And both are needed, because they don´t have such strong tools like BLN or Raw Intuition (With heal ofc).
Without counting the healing, DRK would win hard i guess with a 15s hard cd without a real con.
Man it has been about a joked "1000 potency" before. 1000 healing potency on a heal with multiprocc, when WARs 400 are already way too much?Quote:
Originally Posted by Luin
It hasn´t been about a comparison in that way. -
12-25-2021, 10:59 AMsaber_alterQuote:
Originally Posted by Undeadfire
I never said anything was wrong with pld pre endwalker. I quite like how paladin was improved, and would have welcomed qol changes like the ones they received in endwalker had they come earlier.Quote:
My question is this, Paladin has had no self mitigation upgrades till Endwalker, all in the past stuck with 2 cooldowns, guaranteed shield block, and Intervention which cannot be used on it's self.
It handled Dungeons, EX trials, Savage raids, Ultimates without much issues tanking over Drk/War/Gnb when needed, not preferably, E3S/E8S specially attacked both tanks permanently, TEA phase 2 attacks both tanks. Why does Dark Knight suddenly need more mitigation when it really isn't the problem? Micela is very correct the sustain is over the top and needs bringing down.
Even then it wasn't just paladin. *everyone had weaker defensive skills besides dark knight.* stone, RI, sheltron? all weaker. Damage was scaled to account for those weaker skills as well. TBN was stronger because that was the competition. the rest of the kits across all the tanks is identical barring their invulns and ribbon skills.
DRK needs a defensive buff simply because of how things have been changed. TBN is competing with skills that do far more than it, without drawback for misuse, and are still stronger irregardless. living dead is at this point a worse holmgang that has a minute longer cooldown. Oblation is decent. kinda.
Sustain is fine. we don't even have savage trials out, and even then sustain is acceptable in the two ex trials. Wouldn't mess with that until 4.2 since that gives them time to design boss mechanics around jobs with less sustain.
Living dead is well designed in theory, in practice it's a mess. It is interesting on paper to have an invuln that relies on healers to function, but more often than not it just dissuades players from using it outside of situations where coordination is already a given, and even then you rarely get the full effect from it.Quote:
DRK´s invul might be somehow special, but it has actually the best design and all of them are somehow balanced out throuth the use-time and cooldown.
While HG is a better skill than LD, Holmgang and superbolide exist, have the same duration as HG, and has a shorter cooldown. It's kind of baffling that hallowed has such a long CD even though it's actual comparisons have barely any drawbacks.Quote:
Invul is a superior tool and in kind of DRK you´re going to think twice about "should i use it?", unless you´re a WHM with benediction ready. That´s how such superior surviving-tools should work. Not like e.g. PLD Hallowed Ground, which can carry whole raids whrough badass mechanics with a tethered heal + LB3 or is just use because it has no cons.
taking away things is boring and defeats the purpose of giving them that sustain in the first place.Quote:
And if you take the healing tools from others away, DRK should be superior. All of them has the 3 same defs aka Reprisal, Rampant and the 30% hard cd. Then all of them share one unique def, but that´s it.
This block of text is kind of a mess? If you are predicting what would happen if we removed sustain from the other jobs we'd just be back to shadowbringers but with slightly better cds. I just left shadowbringers. I do not wish to return.Quote:
PLD is already going to lose since any other defs assists only his group members and he needs to be healed to make use of one of them. The other 3 share a 60s cooldown, which is so far balanced throughout the kit and better / worse based on the situation. GNB is the only one with an extra cd, meanwhile PLD has a blockchance. And both are needed, because they don´t have such strong tools like BLN or Raw Intuition (With heal ofc).
Without counting the healing, DRK would win hard i guess with a 15s hard cd without a real con.
-
12-25-2021, 10:59 AMUndeadfire
I just tried both.
We know Warriors heals are broken, no reason to discuss more, it needs nerfing badly.
Holy Sheltron vs TBN, Holy Sheltron is slightly above it, or below it depending on regen ticks. TBN on yourself/tank partner is around 18k at highest current HP.
I'm aware of Holy Spirits healing, but Paladin cannot use on demand, it's a synced rotation, and trying to use Clemency only hurts it.
GNB can't even main tank anymore, it literally can't fit everything in No Mercy.
Dark Knights TBN rework would be fine, but adding another power heal by demand is seriously crazy with TBN, you know how broken that is? Souleater/Brutal Shell/Storms Path are used a lot. TBN is trashy to use, but keeping roughly 18k shield and having a power heal? Bruh... However Living Dead has been needing a tune up for years. -
12-25-2021, 11:02 AMCraterBecause "continuous defense and self-healing" isn't all that important when you're comparing a 15-second recast to a 25-second recast. You're comparing 100% mitigation for 1-2 seconds on a 15 second recast to 28% mitigation for 4 seconds and then 15% mitigation for another 4 seconds followed by 17 seconds of the skill being on cooldown - the self-heal isn't gravy on top of a better mitigative skill; it's basically a hard requirement just for it to be able to keep pace with the much faster cooldown.Quote:
Originally Posted by jetfire117
If you go look at a detailed log of what happens during a dungeon pull when a GNB uses Heart of Corundum at the peak of incoming damage during a pull, you'll find that it's most often mitigating about 11-12k damage and healing 12-13k damage, for a total swing of 23-25k HP over a 25 second cycle. If you look at the same log of what happens during the same pull with a DRK using TBN at the peak of incoming damage, you're shielding for 17.5k-19k HP over a 15 second cycle.
The two skills are within about 10% of each other in terms of overall sustained mitigation, and the difference is most often tilted in TBN's favour. -
12-25-2021, 11:18 AMssunny2008Sorry but sustain is laughable. The 1st primal is going to be played without healers or soloheal already, the 2nd with soloheal, solotank or even both. The damage income is a joke, tankbusters can be taken without cooldowns, stack-tankbusters can be taken solo with 1-2 cooldowns since nothing comes between them. Imo the addphase at the 2nd EX hurts more than the whole boss.Quote:
Originally Posted by saber_alter
And healers sit on a bunch of medigation tools, have 80% critshields, extra barriers and other stuff. Stuff you do even barely use and which just got added for the way too often used multistack-marks. The only way to wipe is still because either the healer or the DPS fckd up 2 mechanics in a row and died poorly 5s before the named stackmarker appears, meanwhile tanks are undying monsters who´ll still survive that big aoe with 5 vuln-stacks.
The content-balance has been bad and is even worse imo. The only reason why "savage is savage" is because you´ve one-shot mechanics which will wipe the whole raid if 1 out of 8 players stays 1mm too far away from his spot. The only reason why so many statics need that long is because 1 or 2 ppl can´t remember what´s going on or need a navigation tool for that little arena. Not because their jobs have not enough tools or because the overall mechanics are so hard to play. -
12-25-2021, 11:21 AMsaber_alterIf TBN and living dead are reworked they don't need the same level of sustain as the other tanks. Throwing a weak self heal on an already existing cooldown (no more than 400 potency) or slightly buffing soul eater would be more than enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Undeadfire