Is SE making more and more anti-melee fights?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GenericMagus

I also forgot to mention the recent dungeons have also started getting into the anti-melee mechanics even more as well, such as the recent 5.3 dungeon as well, which is starting to be a trend brought forward by this xpac.

The 2nd boss of 5.3 dungeon is also one that heavily punishes both melee if you're unlucky to queue up with each other for example.

---

It is possible to position around that boss at max melee and keep uptime if people don't freaking panic. I've had groups where we burn her down before the third mechanic several times. It's not the dungeon, it's the players.

Same thing with E6/E8s, I keep seeing people post about disengaging. Melee have always had to deal with mechanics that made us greed for uptime, the only difference is we now have so many other options to play instead- dnc, rdm, etc that you're not forced to work out melee friendly strats like you used to.

It's created an us vs them mentality and I hate it. Ranged/healers that will tell melee they do not need uptime/positionals, and melee that will refuse to even consider catering to blm/etc out of spite because of it. Fights aren't becoming anti-melee, it's the community that is.

I'm just tired of the bosses jumping halfway across the arena so much or deciding it needs to pounce on a player waaaaaaaaaaaaaay off in the distance next to nowhereland. I feel like it's becoming more of a constant rather than used loosely.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Imbrium

It is possible to position around that boss at max melee and keep uptime if people don't freaking panic. I've had groups where we burn her down before the third mechanic several times. It's not the dungeon, it's the players.

Same thing with E6/E8s, I keep seeing people post about disengaging. Melee have always had to deal with mechanics that made us greed for uptime, the only difference is we now have so many other options to play instead- dnc, rdm, etc that you're not forced to work out melee friendly strats like you used to.

It's created an us vs them mentality and I hate it. Ranged/healers that will tell melee they do not need uptime/positionals, and melee that will refuse to even consider catering to blm/etc out of spite because of it. Fights aren't becoming anti-melee, it's the community that is.

---

i've found once I learn a fight on SAM I can adjust to make things easier on myself and healers, at least I have one ranged attack I can spam for those moments where you can't be near the boss at all. Wish it was a two hit combo though. Maybe they could expand max melee range by a yalm or two though. Certain moves that do the alt cleave, (Hades EX, Memoria 3rd phase) I tend to clip if I'm not far back enough.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GenericMagus

I also forgot to mention the recent dungeons have also started getting into the anti-melee mechanics even more as well, such as the recent 5.3 dungeon as well, which is starting to be a trend brought forward by this xpac.

The 2nd boss of 5.3 dungeon is also one that heavily punishes both melee if you're unlucky to queue up with each other for example.

---

A mechanic you have to learn to play around is not an "anti-melee mechanic." Are AoE circles "anti-caster mechanics"? No, of course not. See this is what I'm talking about with the constant whining from melee. Bosses aren't supposed to be striking dummies, sometimes mechs will inconvenience you and being a good player means figuring out how to handle them with little to no uptime loss.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

A mechanic you have to learn to play around is not an "anti-melee mechanic." Are AoE circles "anti-caster mechanics"? No, of course not. See this is what I'm talking about with the constant whining from melee. Bosses aren't supposed to be striking dummies, sometimes mechs will inconvenience you and being a good player means figuring out how to handle them with little to no uptime loss.

---

I'll ignore the condescending tone, but what I'm saying is that more and more fights are being designed to punish groups with melee in them, where if you have at least 2 melees there's bound to be problems having them. Imagine if you started having issues with 2 casters in the same team, or with DF where it's random and you can be inconvenienced picking a melee and unfortunately getting another melee. What I'm saying isn't to remove anti-melee mechanics, but to make it "fairer", so going double melee won't be as demanding as just going another caster. Imagine if casters lost their ability to compensate for losing uptime, same way as melee would, won't you want the same thing for yourself?

Edit: Like for example, just queuing into raids and you get a fight where it's mostly melee, is far more difficult than it should be just by pure chance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GenericMagus

I'll ignore the condescending tone, but what I'm saying is that more and more fights are being designed to punish groups with melee in them, where if you have at least 2 melees there's bound to be problems having them. Imagine if you started having issues with 2 casters in the same team, or with DF where it's random and you can be inconvenienced picking a melee and unfortunately getting another melee. What I'm saying isn't to remove anti-melee mechanics, but to make it "fairer", so going double melee won't be as demanding as just going another caster. Imagine if casters lost their ability to compensate for losing uptime, same way as melee would, won't you want the same thing for yourself?

Edit: Like for example, just queuing into raids and you get a fight where it's mostly melee, is far more difficult than it should be just by pure chance.

---

The reason why the game punishes you for having too many melee is because otherwise there would be no reason to bring ranged. It's got nothing to do with being "anti-melee." Fights are designed around a maximum of 4 melee jobs including tanks and melee DPS, and that's the way it needs to be. It's the same reason why phys ranged is the weakest role, because otherwise why bring melee and casters? It's balance, nothing more.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

The reason why the game punishes you for having too many melee is because otherwise there would be no reason to bring ranged. It's got nothing to do with being "anti-melee." Fights are designed around a maximum of 4 melee jobs including tanks and melee DPS, and that's the way it needs to be. It's the same reason why phys ranged is the weakest role, because otherwise why bring melee and casters? It's balance, nothing more.

---

So by what you saying, isn't that more saying that fights are inherently designed to be anti-melee forbidding more of them? Yet the damage they provide can often be on-par depending on prog and also easier uptime and if the fight is more unfair to melee. Also, casters tend to get way too much power into them, because of too much cast time mitigation/ other ways to mitigate loss of uptime, while melee get basically nothing

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GenericMagus

So by what you saying, isn't that more saying that fights are inherently designed to be anti-melee forbidding more of them? Yet the damage they provide can often be on-par depending on prog and also easier uptime and if the fight is more unfair to melee. Also, casters tend to get way too much power into them, because of too much cast time mitigation/ other ways to mitigate loss of uptime, while melee get basically nothing

---

Raid groups base their entire strategies for fights around maximizing melee uptime. In high end content there is never any need to lose uptime unless your party or you are bad, so I have no idea what you're talking about. Casters have movement tools because they NEED them otherwise who would ever play a caster? Again, if you could just bring 4 melee with no penalty, then why would you ever bring anything else? Ranged mechanics are one of the few only reasons to ever bring ranged.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tracewood

i've found once I learn a fight on SAM I can adjust to make things easier on myself and healers, at least I have one ranged attack I can spam for those moments where you can't be near the boss at all. Wish it was a two hit combo though. Maybe they could expand max melee range by a yalm or two though. Certain moves that do the alt cleave, (Hades EX, Memoria 3rd phase) I tend to clip if I'm not far back enough.

---

We don't need to increase max melee range, it's fine as is. We already lost a majority of the complexity on melee so for the love of all things holy I hope they do not listen to suggestions like this. Just stick to your uptime and let the healers do their job, if they're like mine I promise you they're bored.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

Raid groups base their entire strategies for fights around maximizing melee uptime. In high end content there is never any need to lose uptime unless your party or you are bad, so I have no idea what you're talking about. Casters have movement tools because they NEED them otherwise who would ever play a caster? Again, if you could just bring 4 melee with no penalty, then why would you ever bring anything else? Ranged mechanics are one of the few only reasons to ever bring ranged.

---

Because even with maximum uptime, casters still do more damage in general over 2 melees barring RDM. If anything, it's more harder and depending on skill, overall taking a 2nd caster would be far better than another melee. Uptime still exists even without melee because of the 2 tanks to squeeze the DPS out of them. I have seen, though admittedly anecdotal evidence of a shift to less melee in groups, with more people searching for melee.

An argument could be made for casters not needing so many movement tools because they're ranged, so they should get penalty for having to move, but get compensated for it for all the uptime potential they have over melee.

And lastly, you're guaranteed to lose uptime in any of the fights as a melee, no matter how hard you try. But even in normal content, getting any more than 2 melee is far more frustrating for the group overall just because you felt like picking a melee instead of a ranged, so it's far less stressful and enjoyable to not go melee just because they design the fights standard but not for the randomness of DFM