A(nother) Secret of the Lily Rework Thread

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Originally Posted by Ceasaria

For Fluid Aura, Divine Benison and Thin Air, you can hear Water sound effect.

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I figured as much for Benison, I never realized that for Thin Air until I examined it closer when prompted by this post. I guess with the name Thin "Air" I had assumed it to be of wind element. How wrong I was, heh.

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Originally Posted by Keridwyn

As a casual healer I can't find more than extremely situational use for Fluid Aura and Repose outside of sometimes when I'm soloing in Eureka and get too close to an extra mob. They need to be changed up or shuffled around.

Fluid Aura: Would it be too OP if Fluid Aura was replaced by Divine Benison's effect? Would it break the game if Fluid Aura put a 15% HP shield on our selves/target every 30s? It could upgrade and be replaced by Divine Benison which could have either an extended duration or maybe absorb a higher percentage of HP.

Or, if that would be too powerful, what about turning it into a small splash cure? Just a 100 potency instant heal that would hit the primary and maybe targets in close proximity to it? It could even tie into the Lily system later on like Asylum, Assize, Tetra, and the other OGCD heals.

Repose: Instead of being a sleep spell could it possibly become an aggro dump? We could really use another one of those that's not tied to our mana.

Just spitballing here I'm not sure how these might impact endgame.

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@Fluid Aura - Just expanding on this, it would be neat if Fluid Aura was a 10% shield and Divine Benison was a trait for Fluid Aura, giving it the current 15% and the ability to be augmented by Lilies. If we can change the effect of the Lilies around it would be a neat and thematic upgrade at that point.

Though I will admit I would miss the Knock Back as I've found some remote use for it on occasion, heh.

@Repose - A threat modifier would be nice, but I sorta enjoy the challenge of attempting to balance enmity on WHM so I might be biased against this, lol. Still, I'm in agreement with Moro about it being more of a enmity suppressant than an enmity dump if there were to be a change in that capacity.

Do Fluid Aura and Repose see a lot of action in upper floors of PotD? If so, I may be a bit less inclined to make changes as it would shift some of WHMs utility in that type of content.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Edit: I realize now this doesn't really tie in much to the OP but I still thought they were cool rehashes of otherwise unappreciated skills.

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I don't mind at all. Heck for all we know some comment like this might inspire S-E to have Repose and Fluid Aura changed and get some additional bonuses from Lilies as well.

My post was pretty hasty but mostly because I didn't know if changes to either if those would break upper level content.

Fluid Aura: The reason I suggested a splash heal wasn't because I thought we needed more heals but because it could have been tied into the Lily system if it were and only if the shield idea was too busted. I would much rather it became a shield and I really like the idea of it turning into Benison. You can then tie it into the lilies with things like extended duration per lily or improved defense % per lily.

Repose: A dampener or even a shifter but I have seen plenty of folks around the forums mentioning WHM lacks in this area so I figured some sort of threat reduction button would see more use. It fits as an oGCD and if the Lilies continue to effect oGCDs then it could benefit from the buffs and reductiins they bring.

You raise a good point with PoTD. I imagine they do indeed see use for high level solo play but if that's their only use...I would rather see them removed and the class otherwise tuned to compensate for their loss.

Honestly, if they prioritize diversifying the healers and tanks more, I think many of the DPS don't need much baseline changes moving forward into Not-Garlemald.

But god damn, do the tanks and healers need a facelift.

In order to fix the Lily system without encouraging improper play I think adding RNG to the Cure spells again is necessary. Making Cure 1 proc a Lily 90% of the time, Cure 2 proc 70%, and add Cure 3 at 50% for Secret of the Lillies without any changes to the ability recast reduction. This way a struggling White Mage will still see a lot of them but it isn't guaranteed. Secret of the Lily 2 would add the ability to attain a Lily from 10 Seconds of cumulative cast time. Stand still casting for 10 Secs and you get a Lily with no RNG to fuss over. Instant Cast spells wouldn't apply to this though. It encourages you to cast anything and Cure Spells would give you an extra chance for a Lily. At 68 I would have an Ability called "Full Bloom" (duration 10 secs and recast 20 secs) that sacrifices all held Lilies to reduce the Cast Time and Recast Time of your next spell by 15% per Lily consumed. At 3 Lilies you get a 45% reduction and this would be more beneficial the longer the cast time of the spell so Raise is an obvious choice. It could be weaved to increase the speed of anything and it would make Lilies apply to the entire toolkit for the WHM which is great since these 2 new Traits would spawn a lot more Lilies and subtly allow for an increase to the pDPS of WHM. Presence of Mind combined with Full Bloom would be amazing. It would still call for clipping occasionally unlike AST but the increased spell speed is a win overall. It would help separate WHM and AST into more distinct healers.

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Originally Posted by NobleWinter

In order to fix the Lily system without encouraging improper play I think adding RNG to the Cure spells again is necessary. Making Cure 1 proc a Lily 90% of the time, Cure 2 proc 70%, and add Cure 3 at 50% for Secret of the Lillies without any changes to the ability recast reduction. This way a struggling White Mage will still see a lot of them but it isn't guaranteed. Secret of the Lily 2 would add the ability to attain a Lily from 10 Seconds of cumulative cast time. Stand still casting for 10 Secs and you get a Lily with no RNG to fuss over. Instant Cast spells wouldn't apply to this though. It encourages you to cast anything and Cure Spells would give you an extra chance for a Lily. At 68 I would have an Ability called "Full Bloom" (duration 10 secs and recast 20 secs) that sacrifices all held Lilies to reduce the Cast Time and Recast Time of your next spell by 15% per Lily consumed. At 3 Lilies you could reduce a single spell's cast time by 45% and this would be more beneficial the longer the cast time of the spell so Raise is an obvious choice. It could be weaved to increase the speed of anything and it would make Lilies apply to the entire toolkit for the WHM which is great since these 2 new Traits would spawn a lot more Lilies and subtly allow for an increase to the pDPS of WHM. Presence of Mind combined with Full Bloom would be amazing. It would still call for clipping occasionally unlike AST but the increased spell speed is a win overall. It would help separate WHM and AST into more distinct healers.

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The generation of your lillies here is still reliant on casting two spells no one wants to cast and one spell that's very situational. The WHM kit revolving around Cure and Cure II is like an AST needing to cast Benefic/Benefic II in order to access card actions - silly gating for no good reason.

Plus we've been down the RNG road before - RNG CD reduction is useless, just like the old Spear card.

I appreciate the ides of the 62 trait but I don't know that it could work in practice. With the way these servers perform I would worry that continuous casting would often be missed due to latency or gaps would be created by latency.

Full Bloom would kind of help clipping but would just create it's own clipping - you would likely clip to use it then not clip your second GCD if you had an oGCD to use in that window. If this reduced cast and recast (like PoM) it could have an appreciable pDPS increase (though I don't think it does based on your points about it helping clipping) but without that I don't think WHM clips enough now (or would see enough reduction in clipping with this ability) for it to be a meaningful change.

Overall, in my opinion, a step in the wrong direction though another interesting idea.

I mentioned specifically that "Full Bloom" would reduce both Cast and Recast Time. It isn't meant to function like the Ast Malefic spells and solve clipping but instead give WHM a way to pinch out a single spell faster. Optimally, you would squeeze Full Bloom behind any instant spell since you could go over 30 seconds stacking 3 lilies without using any Cure spells and either Aero or Regen should wear off in that time frame. The Lily generating cast time would probably only come from completed spells and not interrupted ones tho since the time spent casting in these is undisputable. The RNG bit is to discourage needlessly spamming Cure because it won't be 100% effective and the cool down on Full Bloom would make it pointless to stack Lilies rapidly as well. All in all it's meant to reward the way top tier players play while giving a struggling WHM a little help too. Single target heal spells naturally leave enough space to slide in Full Bloom so it would make panic healing easier.

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Originally Posted by Keridwyn

My post was pretty hasty but mostly because I didn't know if changes to either if those would break upper level content.

Fluid Aura: The reason I suggested a splash heal wasn't because I thought we needed more heals but because it could have been tied into the Lily system if it were and only if the shield idea was too busted. I would much rather it became a shield and I really like the idea of it turning into Benison. You can then tie it into the lilies with things like extended duration per lily or improved defense % per lily.

Repose: A dampener or even a shifter but I have seen plenty of folks around the forums mentioning WHM lacks in this area so I figured some sort of threat reduction button would see more use. It fits as an oGCD and if the Lilies continue to effect oGCDs then it could benefit from the buffs and reductiins they bring.

You raise a good point with PoTD. I imagine they do indeed see use for high level solo play but if that's their only use...I would rather see them removed and the class otherwise tuned to compensate for their loss.

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I only bring up the PotD thing because it's the only content I can think of off hand that may be affected by your changes. I don't think they're bad persay but I feel like we need something... more.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Honestly, if they prioritize diversifying the healers and tanks more, I think many of the DPS don't need much baseline changes moving forward into Not-Garlemald.

But god damn, do the tanks and healers need a facelift.

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I feel some of us healers would be less worried about balance as long as each job was unique and fit a specific niche. We wouldn't want gulfs in the balance, but having small gaps would be okay and can easily be patched up here or there.

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Originally Posted by NobleWinter

In order to fix the Lily system without encouraging improper play I think adding RNG to the Cure spells again is necessary. Making Cure 1 proc a Lily 90% of the time, Cure 2 proc 70%, and add Cure 3 at 50% for Secret of the Lillies without any changes to the ability recast reduction. This way a struggling White Mage will still see a lot of them but it isn't guaranteed. Secret of the Lily 2 would add the ability to attain a Lily from 10 Seconds of cumulative cast time. Stand still casting for 10 Secs and you get a Lily with no RNG to fuss over. Instant Cast spells wouldn't apply to this though. It encourages you to cast anything and Cure Spells would give you an extra chance for a Lily. At 68 I would have an Ability called "Full Bloom" (duration 10 secs and recast 20 secs) that sacrifices all held Lilies to reduce the Cast Time and Recast Time of your next spell by 15% per Lily consumed. At 3 Lilies you get a 45% reduction and this would be more beneficial the longer the cast time of the spell so Raise is an obvious choice. It could be weaved to increase the speed of anything and it would make Lilies apply to the entire toolkit for the WHM which is great since these 2 new Traits would spawn a lot more Lilies and subtly allow for an increase to the pDPS of WHM. Presence of Mind combined with Full Bloom would be amazing. It would still call for clipping occasionally unlike AST but the increased spell speed is a win overall. It would help separate WHM and AST into more distinct healers.

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Originally Posted by NobleWinter

I mentioned specifically that "Full Bloom" would reduce both Cast and Recast Time. It isn't meant to function like the Ast Malefic spells and solve clipping but instead give WHM a way to pinch out a single spell faster. Optimally, you would squeeze Full Bloom behind any instant spell since you could go over 30 seconds stacking 3 lilies without using any Cure spells and either Aero or Regen should wear off in that time frame. The Lily generating cast time would probably only come from completed spells and not interrupted ones tho since the time spent casting in these is undisputable. The RNG bit is to discourage needlessly spamming Cure because it won't be 100% effective and the cool down on Full Bloom would make it pointless to stack Lilies rapidly as well. All in all it's meant to reward the way top tier players play while giving a struggling WHM a little help too. Single target heal spells naturally leave enough space to slide in Full Bloom so it would make panic healing easier.

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I am in agreement with Moro about their assessment. I do like the idea of it and find it interesting but it still feels somewhat counter intuitive to optimized healer play. The "full bloom" ability itself can be useful for a "burn all the lilies" mechanic if we see a Lily rework that's more conducive to ABC-thought process that revolves around growing and burning lilies in a planned way.

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Originally Posted by NobleWinter

I mentioned specifically that "Full Bloom" would reduce both Cast and Recast Time. It isn't meant to function like the Ast Malefic spells and solve clipping but instead give WHM a way to pinch out a single spell faster. Optimally, you would squeeze Full Bloom behind any instant spell since you could go over 30 seconds stacking 3 lilies without using any Cure spells and either Aero or Regen should wear off in that time frame. The Lily generating cast time would probably only come from completed spells and not interrupted ones tho since the time spent casting in these is undisputable. The RNG bit is to discourage needlessly spamming Cure because it won't be 100% effective and the cool down on Full Bloom would make it pointless to stack Lilies rapidly as well. All in all it's meant to reward the way top tier players play while giving a struggling WHM a little help too. Single target heal spells naturally leave enough space to slide in Full Bloom so it would make panic healing easier.

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I'm sorry, I just don't see how this helps. In my opinion it's doomed from the start based solely on the spells it procs from and the fact that latency would either make it abusable (if it counted slidecasted spells) or unusable (if minor lag could cause the 10sec timer to reset because your spell didn't queue properly) plus using any instant or oGCD in there (which would clip and halt lily generation) would punish you specifically for playing correctly.

I just don't like it. There's potential there for sure but this in it's current iteration wouldn't really help WHM in my opinion.