My Eureka Concept

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

Your version of Eureka is like a Diadem, It only stays relevant with the current iLvl and then loses favor. Which is why you can barely get a Diadem run today and barely could get one after 3.3 released. Getting 8 people to go into Diadem even for gathering is a chore. The purpose behind the relic is to make it accessible for everyone at the cost of it being a grind. You can make it 1 Star, 2 Star but what is the incentive for the people who are on 2 star to go back and do the 1 star? You can look at any of the raids through HW and finding a A1-4 party in 3.5 was nigh impossible. 60-minute+ wait time more often than not and is a clear example of how even a Star system would devolve into.The FFXIV playerbase wants things quickly and even though you could have it be a catch up with gear they will still be a burden on the party who wants to clear it as fast as possible (Grind remember).

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Inaccurate. I stated that it would scale with the game and not be left behind.

You also completely misunderstood the concept of the star difficulty rating. It isn't something you "progress through and leave" like relic steps, it's designed for players of differing skill levels. It means that as a skilled player one doesn't need to do 1 star, they can do 3 or 4 star, have more fun, and still be progressing their relic.

It means that a player like you (please do not take offense) would likely stick with DF and 1 star to grind out your relic. Quite literally nothing would change for you. You are the majority and plenty of people would be queuing to empower their relic weapon.

The difference is I don't have to do that (like I do with current relics). I can create a party with some friends and pugs and we can jump in and tackle 3 star and have a more engaging experience based on our skill level, while still working on our relic weapon without being forced into what we generally consider mindless content.

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

I don't want phases. If you have phases then it will be just like other content with cooldowns/lockouts. Content designed for casuals has to be easy to jump in or out. That means no large group made default, time commitment is decided by the player and stuff has to be always accessible. I also don't want relic to be an ilevel anything, because that implies Eureka content will become obsolete in stages.

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I know you didn't respond to me specifically, but I wanted to respond to this. If you haven't read the OP please do.

There are no phases. The 1 star difficulty option is very jump in and jump out, the experience would be like a randomized dungeon tileset and enemy selection. The difficulty would be akin to doing a brand new dungeon (so say Skalla), at not max ilvl. Still trivially easy, but you can't be AFK.

My Eureka design scales indefinitely. They retune based on expected ilvl each patch and can easily scale it up to whatever is current max level.

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What I want Eureka to be like:

1. Character Perpetual Progression- The ability to get stronger and stronger
2. Enemy Perpetual Difficulty- Different levels and stats for enemies, some killable for someone fresh,, and the deeper you venture they get stronger and stronger
3. Zones always max level- Whatever the current max level is in the game, this zone is always that. 70 for SB, 80 for next xpac, 90 for next xpac.
4. Claim system- There can be nothing semi open world and difficult, if players are allowed to outnumber enemies.
5. Advanced Enemy aggro- They aggro by sight, sound, true sight, true sound, low health, magic cast,etc.
6. Persistent enemy links- Enemies will link with no prejudice, if you aggro or pull a pack violating the aggro parameters.
7. Enemies hit harder than ever- Grouping will allow overcoming larger groups to an extent, but it should be very easy to become overwhelmed if enough enemies link or aggro regardless of party composition.
8. Enemies don't deaggro or reset- If you aggro or engage, they will engage you until you leave the zone, kill them, or get killed and their HP will not reset.

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Your list is very similar to mine (mine is instanced though and yours is open world) and mine focuses more on the enemy AI and how you have to approach them. Yours is more solo friendly, whereas I specifically chose 8 man to ensure good breadth of mechanics.

I said it above, but definitely give the OP a good read and throw some insight.

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

Inaccurate. I stated that it would scale with the game and not be left behind.

You also completely misunderstood the concept of the star difficulty rating. It isn't something you "progress through and leave" like relic steps, it's designed for players of differing skill levels. It means that as a skilled player one doesn't need to do 1 star, they can do 3 or 4 star, have more fun, and still be progressing their relic.

It means that a player like you (please do not take offense) would likely stick with DF and 1 star to grind out your relic. Quite literally nothing would change for you. You are the majority and plenty of people would be queuing to empower their relic weapon.

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But the challenge still is gating. PotD is a perfect example of what you're talking about. DF floors 1-100 but have to do a premade to go beyond. So for someone like me PotD has become a snooze fest. I can netflix and chill while running it, it is so brain dead. That is what a 1 star would devolve into. Players would eventually abandon the content once they get too a point they steamroll the rest.

Just because I don't raid doesn't mean I don't keep current on my ilvl and I know I am not the only one. So as the patch grows no matter what happens someone will be left out following your model. The only way to ensure it would stay that way is to follow the PotD model where gear inside is independent of gear outside.

Ok I would like to give some additional enemy tendencies. I realize some of these are in game. But most are in boss battles. I want to see these applied to open world mobs as well. Now when picking up adds, they are usually dealt with in the same way, tank grabs everything and players mow them down. If packs came with different types, the same strategy would not always work the same.

• Juggernaut: These enemies are incredibly dense. When they move, players in their path experience knockback effects.
• Leapers: These enemies jump great heights and upon landing all players in the area are stunned for 6 seconds. Or perhaps they knock players into the air, where extra damage is taken while in flight.
• Flyers: These enemies fly, upon flight they take less damage by non ranged skills.
• Boomers: These enemies exude things from their body at certain damage thresholds. Explosions, shrapnel, poisons, etc.
• Auras: These enemies have properties such as magnetic, sulfuric, gravitation,etc. Example- Fighting a gravitation type enemy inhibits players from running far, a magnetic one slows movement speed from players.
• Reflectors: These enemies reflect certain types of damage. The type and position from which they reflect vary and cycle. Think Calcabrina but more variance and scenarios.
• Colossal: These enemies are gigantic. Hitting them increases weapon wear incrementally at a slightly faster rate. They can also pick you up and squeeze you until someone frees you.
• Planar: These enemies shift in and out of the material plane and spiritual plane.When in material only physical damage hurts them, when in spiritual only magic damage hurts them.
• Bottomfeeders: These enemies can go underground. When they come up they deal big damage and can disable or interrupt actions.
• Leechers: These enemies absorb player resources with successful attacks. They can even feed off enemy allies and become super versions of themselves.
• Absorbers: These enemies build up strong attacks with each skill cast on them and have high hit points. If you attack too fast before the absorbtion count deplete some they can potentially one shot their target.
• Shields: These enemies inflict a permanent dot or debuff like slow and regen health very fast.
• Sleepers: These enemies are sound asleep if a player wakes them by proximity or attacking they have an aoe sleep and typically hit very hard.
• Evokers: These enemies call stronger allies when under attack and on the precipice of death.
• Trappers: These enemies encase players in fields disabling certain skills. They can give an incurable silence, incurable tp drain, incurable hp drain.
• Bullies: These enemies attempt to push you into dangerous hazards like environmental fire or red aoe cast by other enemies.
• Disablers: These enemies lock 3 core player ability when an enemy uses this skill for long durations. Imagine ultimatum, flash, and provoke being unusable for tank, or heal or res for a healer,or buffs for dps.
• Assassins: These are invisible and untargetable until they attack, they usually target the healer or player with the least hit points and use high burst damage.
• Dividers: These enemies mess with your target reticules, they make you target certain enemies, usually the stronger ones.
• Soothers: These enemies heal and remove debuffs from enemy allies.
• Spacers: These enemies teleport around the battlefield doing hit and run burst tactics. Their goal is to separate players. Imagine a stack where one or two players are prevented from joining the stack.
• Latchers: These enemies cling to random players inflicting bleeds and lowering player skill potencies. Think of twenty small spiders jumping and clinging to players.
• Augmenters: These enemies lay fields onto players increasing the damage of other enemy attacks and skills.
• Shifters: These enemies shapeshift into different species to alter the dynamics of dealing with them.
• Creators: These enemies can create fields in the environment. Bodie of water, gasoline, mud, electrical field, lava puddles, etc. Those fields can be manipulated by players or enemies to a positive or detrimental effect.
• Doppelgangers: These enemies can multiply if not killed fast. Perhaps even make a copy of a player, to fool players who is enemy or ally.
• Switchers: These enemies can use random skills usually associated with a unique boss or enemy.
• Voidsents: These enemies can displace players into a void, in here they take damage and cannot be healed until the void time runs out.
• Concentrators: These enemies get stronger and heal when struck by an AoE. These must be killed one by one and killed fast.
• Ravagers: These enemies grow in size and get stronger if a damage over time is used on them. More health, more damage.

This kind of variance makes the game kind of like a basketball game. You call a play and sometimes you have to change the play due to an audible. Call the right play at the right time, but the same play will not always work. A zerg to me is when you can ignore plays called by the enemy and sarge the battlefield. You cannot sarge what you cannot ignore. And as players who struggle with harder content would say is that a mechanic by itself is not that hard, it's when you have to remember a bunch of them in sequence.

Well what if that sequence altered from pack to pack, and each pack had multiple tendencies? Zerg is not a thing anymore in my books at that point. Up the situational awareness.

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

Your list is very similar to mine (mine is instanced though and yours is open world) and mine focuses more on the enemy AI and how you have to approach them. Yours is more solo friendly, whereas I specifically chose 8 man to ensure good breadth of mechanics.

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Aye, solo friendly in the open world sections. I didn't dig into the instanced 8 man stuff because I imagine that will function like 8 man trials or raids. Except you enter the instance from within Eureka instead of a queue while sitting in Limsa.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

But the challenge still is gating. PotD is a perfect example of what you're talking about. DF floors 1-100 but have to do a premade to go beyond. So for someone like me PotD has become a snooze fest. I can netflix and chill while running it, it is so brain dead. That is what a 1 star would devolve into. Players would eventually abandon the content once they get too a point they steamroll the rest.

Just because I don't raid doesn't mean I don't keep current on my ilvl and I know I am not the only one. So as the patch grows no matter what happens someone will be left out following your model. The only way to ensure it would stay that way is to follow the PotD model where gear inside is independent of gear outside.

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But that model hasn't solved anything in terms of actual difficulty. Scalars do. Choice do. Creating an isolate progression path does not (1) create a common starting point, (2) mend rifts in difficulty, nor (3) mend conflicts of goal or difficulty pursued.

The only thing it does is disregard external gear — but there are little to no actual benefits inherent in that.

Yes, people need to feel that they can be challenged as to their own preferences by some given content or piece thereof in a way that does not invite social conflict, but the shrinkage of a 10-20 ilvl gap is not going to affect that in any noticeable manner. Despite your suggestion towards such, you yourself mentioned that PotD floors 1-100 remained steamroll content. We might then chalk that up to progression not resetting after each run, but the fact of the matter is it did not solve any of the things you appear to be worried about. So why it be a solution to them?

By all means, have a unique progression system, but if so have it on its own merits.

What advantage could, say, skill augmentation to bring in a more salivation-worthy depiction of our jobs that flows from the typical gameplay but offers something new atop the typical meta, bring to the Eureka experience (as that is the only place you'd be seeing it), and only thus the whole of the game?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

The only thing it does is disregard external gear — but there are little to no actual benefits inherent in that.

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When you have a mode that is completely void of gear progression the rest relies upon skill. PotD did work for a short time as there was a cap on the gear progressions (30/30) when first released. But you have 99/99 in 40-50 you notice a difference than when it was 30/30. This was a mistake by design.

You could have gear that ranks up but doesn't affect stats/damage or health. Therefore the further you progress the greater the challenge and more dependent on skill. That would be the only way to not exclude upcoming players as well as experienced players.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

But the challenge still is gating. PotD is a perfect example of what you're talking about. DF floors 1-100 but have to do a premade to go beyond. So for someone like me PotD has become a snooze fest. I can netflix and chill while running it, it is so brain dead. That is what a 1 star would devolve into. Players would eventually abandon the content once they get too a point they steamroll the rest.

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That is the exact intent of 1 star. For players like you who by your own admission you stick to only story/casual (I hate that word in context of difficulty based discussion) types of content and like to feel yourselves become more powerful over time making it easier to clear.

It makes no sense why now you're concerned with it being too easy? Why aren't you concerned that the rest of the game currently follows this paradigm? Why is it only an issue here? You make the claim that players will abandon it because its faceroll, but people didn't abandon the all content below EX's despite those all being faceroll.

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Just because I don't raid doesn't mean I don't keep current on my ilvl and I know I am not the only one. So as the patch grows no matter what happens someone will be left out following your model. The only way to ensure it would stay that way is to follow the PotD model where gear inside is independent of gear outside.

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Who will be left out in my model? Specific examples with timeframes/ilvl will be helpful in orchestrating your point.

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

Ok I would like to give some additional enemy tendencies. I realize some of these are in game. But most are in boss battles. I want to see these applied to open world mobs as well. Now when picking up adds, they are usually dealt with in the same way, tank grabs everything and players mow them down. If packs came with different types, the same strategy would not always work the same.

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Are these in reference to YOUR design or MINE?

Some feedback:

Reflectors and Planars while different have the same resolution, thus you can safely remove one or the other. If it were up to me though I'd simply combine the two into 1 trait. Have them reflect damage while in X form to Y based damage and have it transition over the fight like your Planar trait.

I quite like the concept of a few of the aura's. Some of the others I think are better served as actual mechanics on individual mob types (i.e. any winged mob, is automatically granted Flyer/Leaper (fly up and crash down).

I vehemently disagree with the durability wear concept trait.

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This kind of variance makes the game kind of like a basketball game. You call a play and sometimes you have to change the play due to an audible. Call the right play at the right time, but the same play will not always work. A zerg to me is when you can ignore plays called by the enemy and sarge the battlefield. You cannot sarge what you cannot ignore. And as players who struggle with harder content would say is that a mechanic by itself is not that hard, it's when you have to remember a bunch of them in sequence.

Well what if that sequence altered from pack to pack, and each pack had multiple tendencies? Zerg is not a thing anymore in my books at that point. Up the situational awareness.

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Agreed this was my intent as well when I designed this content.

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

That is the exact intent of 1 star. For players like you who by your own admission you stick to only story/casual (I hate that word in context of difficulty based discussion) types of content and like to feel yourselves become more powerful over time making it easier to clear.

It makes no sense why now you're concerned with it being too easy? Why aren't you concerned that the rest of the game currently follows this paradigm? Why is it only an issue here? You make the claim that players will abandon it because its faceroll, but people didn't abandon the all content below EX's despite those all being faceroll.

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You understood PotD 1-100 being a snoozefest as a good thing. For me it is not. Just because I don't static or PF doesn't mean I don't like a challenge. Which is why I also said to keep it light party. It is a lot easier to get 3 other people together than 7 other people. But even finding 3 other people to potd floors 101-200 is still challenging. The people who have done it don't want to go back.

Every other Extreme, Trial, Dungeon, Etc. is on a roulette. The reason why I am making about a big deal of it here is because Diadem is the best example. It is mostly abandoned. This is the 2nd time it has been left to sit there because it is gated behind full party.

In regards to your other comment about people getting left out. 3.5 it was nigh impossible to find an A1-A4 party. So people trying to catch up in story and in gear had a difficulty finding a party. I have already stated this multiple times.

If anything I would like Eureka to be gear agnostic similar to PvP. You go in with base stats and the only differentiator is skill.

I wonder when this next relic is going to start. And please don’t let this be diadem format .....sorry, not interested in it

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

I quite like the concept of a few of the aura's. Some of the others I think are better served as actual mechanics on individual mob types (i.e. any winged mob, is automatically granted Flyer/Leaper (fly up and crash down).

I vehemently disagree with the durability wear concept trait.

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The planar or reflector comparison are different. If you hit them during wrong phase, there is some boon to the enemy or consequence for you hitting during the wrong time with the wrong skills or from the wrong angle.

The idea is randomized skillsets. So an imp could be 1-20 different tendencies or a group of imps could be a mix of different tendencies. This makes fighting packs always randomized.

For flyers, I think auto fly up/crash down would be too one dimensional. Have some swoop, some peck, some dive, all with unique effect.

Think of that wearing down of weapons due to fighting something really dense and hard. Like hitting solid steel mountain with wooden sticks. Breath of the Wild played around with this concept but it was annoying there because weapons broke too easily and this applied to most weapons.

This would only be for certain encounters, where you have to decide "Should I beat these to a pulp and go through mutliple weapons?,Should I sneak past them? Should I kill with burst magic? We have to synergize hits against this or only hit it during certain phases or it going to wreck havoc on the enounter due to broken weapons!"

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

You understood PotD 1-100 being a snoozefest as a good thing. For me it is not. Just because I don't static or PF doesn't mean I don't like a challenge. Which is why I also said to keep it light party. It is a lot easier to get 3 other people together than 7 other people. But even finding 3 other people to potd floors 101-200 is still challenging. The people who have done it don't want to go back.

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I'm still confused though. You're either being hypocritical or I am missing something. By your own admission you don't do EX's or Savage (please correct me if I am wrong). That means that the only content left is snoozefest content, dungeons, normal mode raiding, 24 mans etc. So how can you say you like a challenge when you yourself admit you don't engage in anything challenging?

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Every other Extreme, Trial, Dungeon, Etc. is on a roulette. The reason why I am making about a big deal of it here is because Diadem is the best example. It is mostly abandoned. This is the 2nd time it has been left to sit there because it is gated behind full party.

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Diadem wasn't abandoned because it was full party content. I have no idea where you got that idea from, but it's blatantly false.

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In regards to your other comment about people getting left out. 3.5 it was nigh impossible to find an A1-A4 party. So people trying to catch up in story and in gear had a difficulty finding a party. I have already stated this multiple times.

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Yes you did mention this several times, and I've refuted it several times. These players would not be left out of my iteration of Eureka. They would be more than capable of joining up for 1 star via DF with the majority of the playerbase.

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Originally Posted by Linx0r

I wonder when this next relic is going to start. And please don’t let this be diadem format .....sorry, not interested in it

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I'm confused. Are you saying my concept is diadem format or are you simply saying you pray that Eureka is not diadem format.

Are you saying my iteration is good or bad? If so state examples of what is good and what is bad so I can better understand your position.

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

The planar or reflector comparison are different. If you hit them during wrong phase, there is some boon to the enemy or consequence for you hitting during the wrong time with the wrong skills or from the wrong angle.

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They are different. I acknowledged that. What I said was that their resolution was identical. If you have 2 different mechanics that have identical resolutions, you're better off consolidating them into a singular mechanic.

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The idea is randomized skillsets. So an imp could be 1-20 different tendencies or a group of imps could be a mix of different tendencies. This makes fighting packs always randomized.

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Which is identical to my proposed version of Eureka so we're in agreement there.

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For flyers, I think auto fly up/crash down would be too one dimensional. Have some swoop, some peck, some dive, all with unique effect.

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Nothing wrong with differentiating their "fly up/crash down" mechanics, but the core mechanic can be largely similar, which is that it is immune while it is up, and does some type of technique to come back down.

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Think of that wearing down of weapons due to fighting something really dense and hard. Like hitting solid steel mountain with wooden sticks. Breath of the Wild played around with this concept but it was annoying there because weapons broke too easily and this applied to most weapons.

This would only be for certain encounters, where you have to decide "Should I beat these to a pulp and go through mutliple weapons?,Should I sneak past them? Should I kill with burst magic? We have to synergize hits against this or only hit it during certain phases or it going to wreck havoc on the enounter due to broken weapons!"

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That quite literally sounds like the antithesis of fun having to carry multiple weapons to accommodate this trait. How do you 'synergize' hits in FF14? How do you burst with magic? You just let your melee/tanks AFK while mages beat on it?

The reason I disagreed with this singular trait was because I am still struggling to find any redeeming qualities it would add in a gameplay scenario.