Tanks that think they are DPS, just stop...

No tank in the game actually thinks like this. Sure some think they can get away with certain things when they can't but no tank actually thinks they are a dps..
Really the actual reason people don't want tanks to overstep the "aggro generator that takes big hits" is because if a tank is learning how to maximize their effectiveness it puts not only themselves at risk but the whole duty, I'm starting to suspect people don't like damage involved tanking because it means if the tank makes any mistakes then the whole run is ruined and tanks are forbidden to make mistakes. Ever.

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Originally Posted by Ameela

The biggest problem with that is that with the changes to tank damage and the way accessories work we'll eventually reach a point where tank damage is so low when compared to DPS that the run won't be any shorter even if the tank tries to optimise DPS, if you can't contribute in a meaningful way, why try to contribute at all? Might as well just sit in tank stance and do your 1-2-3 combo like a good boy.

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I'm waiting to see what they are planning for 4.05 before having an opinion on that.
It's clear that there's a gap in Attack Power increase which will grow between DPS and Tanks. But it's quite hard to predict at the moment how things will evolve precisely, and how much % group DPS participation will tank lose over time.

My feeling is that even if SE does nothing, as long as the % participation from tanks remains around 12-15%, it'll be good enough. It's currently near 20% (depends on the percentile and the team composition but you get the idea).
Whatever the case, as long as there will be DPS checks, tanks should continue pushing. In progression and shortly after at least.

Bwahaha... the non-tanks are funny...

*these non tanks are funny

@SyzzleSpark Because this assumption operates on the 3.xx meta. Optimizing is making the most of what the game has to offer and at that point, as YoshiP has stated, they allowed that dps meta to exist. Now, they are trying to change it and they've done it in the wrong manner. Indeed the quickest way to solve this is to just revert to the previous dps meta. However, SE already heavily implied that tanks DPS is being curbed intentionally. So in effect they are trying to change the previous meta. That DPS meta was established because SE allowed it to happen. Now that they aren't, wouldn't it be more productive to suggest other non-dps changes to SE? Of course that overhaul takes a lot of effort and time but if SE aren't going to budge from their decision then suggesting other ways to fix the issue would seem more prudent. Unless of course the player only truly wants a dps tank rather than a fun, engaging, non-dps more traditional tank. Then thats a player issue not SE

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Originally Posted by Ameela

The biggest problem with that is that with the changes to tank damage and the way accessories work we'll eventually reach a point where tank damage is so low when compared to DPS that the run won't be any shorter even if the tank tries to optimise DPS, if you can't contribute in a meaningful way, why try to contribute at all? Might as well just sit in tank stance and do your 1-2-3 combo like a good boy.

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That is a seriously bad slippery slope argument.

You are presupposing that the only way to generate enough enmity to hold hate against dps in 4.5 if things remain unchanged is to be in tank stance spamming RoH/Power Slash/Butcher's Block combos.

A more likely scenario is that a tank in tank stance doing a proper optimized dps rotation will be able to generate enough enmity to hold hate.

http://i.imgur.com/kwYKskN.jpg

Its alright we've got a bright future ahead of us, we'll be able to make all them non-tanks happy.

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Originally Posted by Splitinfinity

@SyzzleSpark Because this assumption operates on the 3.xx meta. Optimizing is making the most of what the game has to offer and at that point, as YoshiP has stated, they allowed that dps meta to exist. Now, they are trying to change it and they've done it in the wrong manner. Indeed the quickest way to solve this is to just revert to the previous dps meta. However, SE already heavily implied that tanks DPS is being curbed intentionally. So in effect they are trying to change the previous meta. That DPS meta was established because SE allowed it to happen. Now that they aren't, wouldn't it be more productive to suggest other non-dps changes to SE?Of course that overhaul takes a lot of effort and time but if SE aren't going to budge from their decision then suggesting other ways to fix the issue would seem more prudent. Unless of course the player only truly wants a dps tank rather than a fun, engaging, non-dps more traditional tank. Then thats a player issue not SE

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The metagame (god, you made me use that term) will always revolve around killing the raidbosses faster. Thus, the players will always seek ways to maximize the DPS of the party as a whole.

This is how every MMORPG ever made works. It is nothing new and is not specific to any content or era of this game.

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Originally Posted by NosValk

http://i.imgur.com/kwYKskN.jpg

Its alright we've got a bright future ahead of us, we'll be able to make all them non-tanks happy.

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I actually LOLed at this for several moments.

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Originally Posted by Falar

The metagame (god, you made me use that term) will always revolve around killing the raidbosses faster. Thus, the players will always seek ways to maximize the DPS of the party as a whole.

This is how every MMORPG ever made works. It is nothing new and is not specific to any content or era of this game.

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Exactly. And @Splitinfinity, because DPS is ever-useful and will never not be, if you make it so that a skilled player can't output more DPS on a tank through motivation, practice, optimization, and experience, than a non-skilled or just unmotivated player, you remove an incentive to tank at all. "Why bother trying to tank well when I'm not actually helping my group clear any faster by doing so?"

The only way this will not be the case is if they make raid boss's DPS higher than our healers' HPS to the point where mitigating that damage becomes a teethgrinding battle for the tank. This would require a redesign of the tanks and the healers from the ground up as well as a redesign of all of the game's current content.

I prefer the simpler solution of just allowing tanks to deal good damage if they try. Threads like this basically boil down to a certain segment of the tanking population asking that they not be called out for being lazy within the game's current design, nothing more, nothing less. No one is FORCING them to not be lazy, they just don't like their little feelings getting hurt.

There is no reason why the average healthy, 20-30-something gamer with two hands, two eyes, 10 fingers, a functioning brain, and decent coordination between these elements should have trouble doing this if they put in effort.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

That is a seriously bad slippery slope argument.

You are presupposing that the only way to generate enough enmity to hold hate against dps in 4.5 if things remain unchanged is to be in tank stance spamming RoH/Power Slash/Butcher's Block combos.

A more likely scenario is that a tank in tank stance doing a proper optimized dps rotation will be able to generate enough enmity to hold hate.

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I think you misunderstood. The argument isn't about enmity. The argument is that while Attack Power for Tanks will raise from left side gear, Attack Power for DPS will raise from left side AND right side gear. In short, the more iLv will grow, the bigger the gap between DPS and Tanks will be in terms of Attack Power.
So, the % participation of Tanks in regard to group DPS will be lower and lower over time. Each patch making Tank contributing less than before compared to the other roles which will grow faster.

Ameela thinks that this gap might grow so big that Tanks won't even have to bother about optimizing their DPS because of how ridiculously low it'll impact the fight. Why bother trying to squeeze every bit of damage, when you'll only raise group's DPS by tiny percents? It's not worth the effort.
As I said above, Tanks can probably reach around 16 to 19% group DPS currently. 20% to be generous. But with time, this percentage will get lower and lower. So what if, in 4.5, Tanks reach 10 or 9% group participation? The MT will do something like 4% while the OT will do 6%. So why would these tanks bother with optimizing their DPS? It's so low anyway, nobody will notice a 1 or 2% change on two tanks. So might as well do 1, 2, 3 and that's it. (Of course, numbers are inaccurate, it's just to make the point clear.)

I personally don't agree with that, because I don't think that the gap will grow big enough so that Tank's DPS almost don't matter anymore. But it's still a valid concern as it's quite hard to predict from now.