DPS obsession in farm groups

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Originally Posted by OpheliaHeartilly

It's almost like you completely disregarded everything I said about one person insisting their personal dps gain is more important then everyone else's ability to dps optimally. I think it's fantastic that the best raid groups do stuff like that. I think they should. I don't think average players should expect to be able to do that without any hitches in content that was designed with a more relaxed approach. The OP is right insomuch that if a person wants high DPS speed clears of content then it is incumbent upon THEM to form said group. Not join a group and then complain.

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I would argue that this depends on what the OP puts in their PF comment (which we haven't seen, by the by). If you simply put 'Farm' in there and don't specify a relaxed approach, people will assume you mean a high-efficiency farm with the biggest DPS you can put out. If they put it as a relaxed farm, that's fine.... But the person forming the party is ultimately responsible for making this distinction one way or another.

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Originally Posted by OpheliaHeartilly

It's almost like you completely disregarded everything I said about one person insisting their personal dps gain is more important then everyone else's ability to dps optimally. I think it's fantastic that the best raid groups do stuff like that. I think they should. I don't think average players should expect to be able to do that without any hitches in content that was designed with a more relaxed approach. The OP is right insomuch that if a person wants high DPS speed clears of content then it is incumbent upon THEM to form said group. Not join a group and then complain.

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Indeed, as I said in the post that Dragonseth07 responded to;

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That said, if this is a farm group, then I have to assume it's a pre-made or PF, you have to know going in that people want the run over as quickly as possible and will max out DPS for that reason. If you don't like that kind of play style, then as others have said, make your own PF and indicate that you are not min/maxing for DPS and are not trying to be as efficient as you can. Basically, you kind of know going into a farm group that the point is to run the content as many times as possible to farm the drops, that means speed, efficiency and of course maximum DPS

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Not sure if he read that far or just went with sarcasm to score points.

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Originally Posted by Malzian

I would argue that this depends on what the OP puts in their PF comment (which we haven't seen, by the by).

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I see your point. I liked your post. I don't agree with it entirely-- but you made me think. True-- we don't know what the OP put in their "farm party PF". I just see more of the blame on the person joining and imposing their high dps meta even though the group is clearing just fine-- no issues other than it may take a minute longer. Pretty obvious how that player is obtaining their dps data (unless they are legitimately just commenting on overall dps based on mechanics seen). People of all ages and skill types play this game for a variety of reasons. I think I'd be irritated too if I had a competent farm group running and someone rants about dps being low (even though our clears are consistent and clean). But as I said-- I see your side too and I see how blame could be shared. On a side note-- I find it funny when ppl complain about encounters/raids being too easy but they are usually the first ones to try to find exploits or ways skip/cheese mechanics somehow to make another encounter easier.

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Originally Posted by OpheliaHeartilly

**snip** On a side note-- I find it funny when ppl complain about encounters/raids being too easy but they are usually the first ones to try to find exploits or ways skip/cheese mechanics somehow to make another encounter easier.

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LOL, I know. My irony meter explodes every time I see that...

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Originally Posted by OpheliaHeartilly

On a side note-- I find it funny when ppl complain about encounters/raids being too easy but they are usually the first ones to try to find exploits or ways skip/cheese mechanics somehow to make another encounter easier.

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I share a sentiment of laughter (though my reaction is more like *Rolls eyes*) when I hear things are too easy as well. I would like to know how many people that complain about things "being too easy" actually try to do anything to challenge themselves like low manning an EX Primal or running content with min ilvl sync on.

Challenge can be self-imposed. S-E doesn't need to do anything to make things challenging when there are perfectly good ways to challenge oneself or a group of players if they can. If you're looking for a reward for challenging content in a certain way - that reward is your accomplishment doing something most people aren't able to do.

[Edit] I'm not going to touch too much about "skiping" or "cheesing" mechanics this particular raid tier. It almost feels intentionally designed in some respects as a means of rewarding higher levels of thoughtful and optimizing play.

Though I personally dislike any mechanic that can be cheesed/skip by sacrificing a player to it *Glares at A4S and A8S*

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Originally Posted by OpheliaHeartilly

-snip- On a side note-- I find it funny when ppl complain about encounters/raids being too easy but they are usually the first ones to try to find exploits or ways skip/cheese mechanics somehow to make another encounter easier.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

LOL, I know. My irony meter explodes every time I see that...

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

I share a sentiment of laughter (though my reaction is more like *Rolls eyes*) when I hear things are too easy as well. I would like to know how many people that complain about things "being too easy" actually try to do anything to challenge themselves like low manning an EX Primal or running content with min ilvl sync on.

Challenge can be self-imposed. S-E doesn't need to do anything to make things challenging when there are perfectly good ways to challenge oneself or a group of players if they can. If you're looking for a reward for challenging content in a certain way - that reward is your accomplishment doing something most people aren't able to do.

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Well, to be fair, usually these skips and such are found randomly by world first groups as they grind through the content to clear as fast as they can. Then, considering that some are just built in bits of the fight, they leverage them to get an edge on being first and end up revealing it to everyone else after the race is over. The issue is that -then- every other group that comes along goes, "We need to do it exactly the way the World First groups did it because that must be the best and only way to do it." Which is patently false, but that's what ends up happening.

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Originally Posted by Malzian

Well, to be fair, usually these skips and such are found randomly by world first groups as they grind through the content to clear as fast as they can. Then, considering that some are just built in bits of the fight, they leverage them to get an edge on being first and end up revealing it to everyone else after the race is over. The issue is that -then- every other group that comes along goes, "We need to do it exactly the way the World First groups did it because that must be the best and only way to do it." Which is patently false, but that's what ends up happening.

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This reminds me of my own group, lol. We do things so opposite of what most groups do things I have actually named the raid LS "WE DO THINGS BACK ASSWARDS"

A few examples:

T11 - We tank Kaliyah in the opposite direction most people run and we also have tether groups run in the opposite direction as most PuG strategies (I believe most people tank South while we tank North? And most people run right while we run left)
A11S - We explode south tower for space in the final phase when most groups preserve the south tower in anyway humanly possible for their clears
Zurvan - In final phase, we tank Zurvan E-W prior to rotating clockwise and positioning groups N-S as Lost Seal is going out while most groups have their groups N-W prior to Southern Cross and then splits E-W after Southern Cross

I think, that most of you didnt think about rather simple things

First of all- the player must show a proper DPS according to his class and level of gear. If he doesnt show- he is a wagon. Noone in the raid must carry him and Raid leader has a full right to kick him
Second- when all of the players show a proper DPS according to their gear, but some person wants a better DPS and rage quit. He is just an idiot

It is TWO DIFFERENT OBSTACLES! Dont mix it

Most zurvan farm parties tend to be much more vitriolic over parse numbers in a way that i don't really recall being anywhere as near an issue in sophia farms. You could skip a lot of the mechanics in sophia with high dps too. the first tank buster, the mines, a tilt, and the first sin and punishment are skippable in a high dps party. Meanwhile in zurvan I'll get called a bad for doing 1700k average dps with 13k crits (I'm not BiS at all) when we're wiping because other people aren't stacking for southern cross.

It's silly.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

Dps allows you to skip one mechanic in that fight which is a mechanic you still need to do the second time around, no lb 2 will not save you if you have if people still don't know how to do the mechanic all lb 2 does is change the two hits in a single mechanic= instant death and makes it a 3 hit. skipping it is nice but changes nothing for the grand scheme of the fight.

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Was farming Zurvan with 1 tank, 1 heal and 6 (decent) dps.

What is soar?