The Fields of Glory (Shatter)

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Originally Posted by Slib

Having objective filled maps in a big team makes it fun rather than just a kill fest. Slaughter was garbage.

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I agree that Slaughter was garbage (though even that wasn't purely PvP, since there were still drones), but I don't it's wrong to expect PvP in an actual PvP game mode. The problem isn't that there are objectives. The problem (if you can call it that) is that the PvE objectives dramatically outweigh the gains from PvP. In the worst cases, people don't even want to fight and spend the entire match just running away from each other until they're forced to rub shoulders on the same crystal spawn. It's still player versus player, mind you, but it's more of an indirect competition than a battle, and Front Lines is kind of supposed to be a battle.

The thing is, I don't think there's a way to really "fix" that. Even if kills were weighted more (which would be nice), it still falls to the players to actually choose to fight. Sadly, most players who queue for Front Lines are too afraid of PvP to do that; so, we're kind of stuck running the RNG obstacle course rather than getting into a battle. It's still fun, of course. I've been enjoying Shatter quite a bit, but I do still hope that Feast queues pick back up sometime in the near future.

I was initially really excited for shatter because I thought they were trying to bring back something similar to secure. Instead we got the worst parts of slaughter & seize combined into one. I'm having fun with it for now because its new, but I'm curious about long term potential. Slaughter & seize were both far more popular than secure, likely because theres less pressure and you don't actually have to know what you're doing to participate.

I do like the map itself though. Reminds me a bit of WvWvW in GW2. I'd love to see something like secure on this map, where you have to spread out and control various points instead of running around in a huge group of lemmings.

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Originally Posted by Februs

I agree that Slaughter was garbage (though even that wasn't purely PvP, since there were still drones).

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I'm not sure how it was on western servers, but on the Gaia data center the meta got to the point where slaughter was almost 100% PVE. Within a month of release everyone would just run away as soon as the drones died because the two losing teams ganged up on first place, but if 1st place ran away the other two would have to fight each other if they tried to chase them. This devolved to the point where 1st place would flee before the drones even died, or as soon as they noticed an enemy team coming close to attempt a LB barrage. As a result, slaughter became a mode where you tried to out DPS the other team with 18 black mages and then just ran away to avoid conflict after the race was over. The only time people ever attacked was if someone was out of position or if 1st place was so far ahead that they could leave the center entirely and come up behind the 2nd place team to kill them then spawn camp them. The slaughterhouse title was very rare back then.

This was by far the low point of FF14's PVP for me and I'm really hoping shatter doesn't become something similar.

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Originally Posted by Invalid_Name

I'm not sure how it was on western servers, but on the Gaia data center the meta got to the point where slaughter was almost 100% PVE.

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It was the same on the North American data centres. Even Secure played similar after the average game size shrunk to 24-man. Once you got your base Secured, everyone would head up to the top of the tower and stare at each other awkwardly while we waited for drones to spawn. Drones popped in. Dps check/race started up. Drones died. Everyone split back up and waited for the next set.

The only time anything different happened was if someone was cheeky and sneaked behind another team to steal their flag, but even then it wasn't all that exciting because it was usually just one or two players. No one would want to send their full team because if they did that they'd be leaving only one GC up topside to collect ALL the drones, guaranteeing their win. Most times it was just a minor inconvenience of having to go back down to re-secure your flag, then head back up and repeat the drone dps check. By comparison, the earlier matches of 72-man Secure were much more exciting, because the teams were always fighting over the additional capture points instead of purely focusing on drones.

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Originally Posted by TiaHariberux3

Wait what? Non random spawns are less rng and make it easier to follow a certain strat meanwhile in Seize you could get fked all game lol. The fact that ppl complain about rng cause they lost is just meh. There is always something called like killing that u can do to get back.

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You'd think non-random spawns would be less RNG, but in reality? They play out to be worse!

When spawns are fully random, each team is playing with the same deck and can make decisions based off of their path to victory. When spawns are semi-random,however, the decks become uneven - you have to make choices based off of what the RNG allows, rather than ones that will win you the game. And the RNG doesn't always think you deserve a shot to win.

In Seal Rock, you could outplay RNG, either by outmaneuvering people to stack the odds in your favor, or simply by killing them. Shatter.. the jury is still deliberating, but right now? Not so much.

Reading all of these comments made me appreciate Seal Rock even more!

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Originally Posted by Kyani

You'd think non-random spawns would be less RNG, but in reality? They play out to be worse!

When spawns are fully random, each team is playing with the same deck and can make decisions based off of their path to victory. When spawns are semi-random,however, the decks become uneven - you have to make choices based off of what the RNG allows, rather than ones that will win you the game. And the RNG doesn't always think you deserve a shot to win.

In Seal Rock, you could outplay RNG, either by outmaneuvering people to stack the odds in your favor, or simply by killing them. Shatter.. the jury is still deliberating, but right now? Not so much.

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Ehm you can outplay/killing/outmaneuvering ppl in shatter too. Since you can predict a bit more than in sr its way easier to outplay other teams. Thats just my impression after 20+ games. Also there is more fighting than in most ppl think in my opinion and from what I saw in 72.

The map is awful especially for 24 man. I love pvp in this game but man this map is awful.

Also, in 72 man, I feel like the game is mostly just a DPS race rather than actual pvp. Around the node it is more beneficial to just go all out on the ice rather than attack other players. When it is dead pretty much everyone pulls out anyway. I am honestly disappointed in this map/mode, but I feel like it could be fixed with some adjustment.

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Originally Posted by Invalid_Name

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I agree and remiss for the same things. TY for putting it into better words. 72 Secure was my favorite for similar reasons, 3 pseudo-Wolves Den fights (Parties A & C) going simultaneously while Team B managed center node(s) and assist faltering party A/C during downtime. It's still PVP, it's still unscripted, but at least the transitional phases there were a natural shove, by design, to get X encounter here, Y encounter there.

It's been harder to come by in Seal Rock lately (players that care aren't around anymore). Since, it's felt for me Frontlines has just been de-evolving into Team deathmatch,

I guess Feast is to blame? IDK, Free-sprint, CC nerfs, and the faster LB build may have been a factor (at least in Slaughter, people who were grinding for hand of mercy specifically could just BLM/SMN and not break the design intent).

Or maybe because the zerg deathmatch approach is working for some people, everyone else just follows that white rabbit...


anyway, a POSITIVE: what I appreciate about this Shatter, is they brought back the debris and obstacles that help kiters break LoS, and the return of knock back.

But especially the debris, didn't realize how much I missed those little LoS-breaking-delights (which were mostly absent on the Seal Rock map).

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

Snip.

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It really makes you appreciate that old game mode, doesn't it? It is just a shame that they couldn't sustain the same style of play when Secure got downgraded to 24 man. Personally, I think that they made a mistake there. Instead of having drone spawns at the top of the tower, they should have had a fourth flag. That way, everyone would be forced to fight for supremacy of a second flag either up top or at someone else's base while they were distracted. I think it would have worked a lot better than the rinse and repeat drone camp.

The deathmatch style that took over in the last days of Seize was purely caused by the enhanced LB meter. That was a flat out mistake on SE's part. They even admitted that it wasn't working as intended and patched it out of all FL modes when they released Shatter. So, the pace of the matches should go back to what you're familiar with.

Ps. I totally agree with the Line of Sight comment. I did not realize how much I missed having debris to hide behind in FL until I used it for the first time in Shatter. I'm not 100% satisfied with the map, but the fact that they put that back into it is definitely a plus that puts it WAY over the Seize map in my book.

Ugh, this map. Im certain the meta for shatter will become "ignore the other teams and do your pve dps rotations as hard as possible on the training dummies... i mean *nodes*" because the moment you engage an opposing team all you do is ensure that the team whom you're not engaging is going to win. Its awful. Its like the worst aspects of seal rock combined with secure. And secure was awful. IDK why people have so much nostalgia over it. Secure is what turned a vast majority of the playerbase off to pvp.

edit: whoops, meant "secure"